White Appropriation of FN Cultural Symbols and Idiom.

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quote:Originally posted by Will S:

But I, again personally, think that appropriating material actions and aspects of culture that are useful for personal growth or other utilities within another culture isn't a bad thing as long as as its clear that the person or people using these symbols aren't claiming a spiritual connection with the other culture.

It's funny that your should mention personal growth. I don’t know if others have a sense of what a sweat is for. Mind you, it may mean different things in different places but, from my experiences, sweats are not intended for personal benefit. A person in the sweat is there on behalf of someone else. Your being there is as a personal sacrifice.

Unfortunately I get the impression that a lot of people think that attending a sweat is for some personal fulfilment. From what I’ve come to understand it isn’t. And I suspect that these newage religious groups could be using the sweat for personal reasons. For my part, that's appropriation. While it’s true that when your there you need to find clarity and pureness of thought, that intent still isn’t for your benefit. It’s ultimately for the purpose of helping others.

Speaking of appropriation; quite a while back I remember being to a couple different sweats where people came out saying “that felt good” or letting out a big satisfying “ahhh”. I had to shake my head and laugh to myself wondering what it is they thought they were there for. Wah hwah

quote:Originally posted by Saga:

It is a bit of a dilemma, though: They want the rest of us to understand their traditions and respect them and the earth as they do, but people naturally want to become part of the process too.

Your dilemma is a bit unclear to me. It is nice that people want to understand. But if it's for personal benefit then one misses the point of understanding.

quote:Originally posted by Michael Nenonen:
sknguy: Brilliantly put. The essence of commodification is the transformation of communal and localized rituals into amoral and abstracted vehicles for self-development. It strips these rituals of their ethical, social, and often political content.

I take some issue with the notion that the act is amoral. In your opinion and in the opinion of others, perhaps, but obviously the person taking the ritual wouldn't necessarily see the act as immoral. Morality is quite subjective (in my opinion anyway) - which is why I think we have a bit of a spiritual-secular divide at work here.

In my earlier post I wasn't speaking explicitly about the sweat lodge, and I don't know all that much about it, so feel free to call me on something that I say that's false, but I'll run with this anyway.

Earlier I said I didn't see a problem with people from other cultures using material items, acts or symbols that other cultures used so long as they weren't suggesting they shared some sort of spiritual connection with that culture. For instance, the sweat lodge as I understand it is a form of sauna although there are particular differences. Some of my great grand parents were immigrants from Finland and they brought along that land's own sauna culture. So the actual structure, while different, also has similarities. It's possible some aboriginals would be horrified to learn that a similar structure is being used for very different cultural purposes, but it evolved in Finland under different circumstances. So the material element of act of entering the sauna or sweat lodge, and it's symbolic nature may have similarities across cultures, but have very different purposes. If the Finns when they came here adopted some of the structural traits of the sweat lodges they observed, I'm not convinced that in itself is an imoral act. It's part of a culture developing and changing as it comes into contact with other cultures. Are they appropriating something from another culture? Yes, probably, but I'm not sure I'd see anything wrong with that.

I consulted Wikipedia (something that can be fraught with danger) and also noted different tribes or nations use the sweatlodge slightly differently. I have difficulty believing each tribe or nation came up with their own ritual without having observed or participated in it elsewhere, so I assume the differences are part of the normal pattern of culturals diverging, changing and adapting to different circumstances. Were different tribes or nations appropriating the concept for their own use - yes, probably. The big difference is that white settler culture has a substantially different relationship to aboriginals than do groups of aboriginals amongst themselves. Yes, I don't think we can ever firmly know if this aspect culture was appropriated through peaceful means or as a result of inter-tribal conflict, but the white-settler colonial project is on a different plane entirely.

Weaving my way towards a conclusion, I still think that when cultures interact (whether peacefully or through brief or sustained conflicts) there is bound to be some exchange or appropriation. Taking something material from another culture for your own personal use or for use within your culture isn't, in my opinion, amoral in itself. Do I have a cultural connection to Finland? Barely. Do I take saunas? Yup. Do I feel guilt about appropriating a material from that culture for my personal benefit and not using it in 'traditional' Finnish ways? Nope. I take it and make it a part of my own cultural awareness with no pretense that I'm somehow being 'authentically' Finn. I like it because it's great for scrubbing off old skin. Blech.

But if these New Age spirituality types are using something like a sweat to try to establish some aboriginal-like connection to this land when they simply don't have a comparable connection in historic terms (as in that book The Imaginary Indian that was mentioned) or if they think they're somehow in communion with aboriginals as a result, then I could readily see why some people would find it offensive (and I would find it offensive too). Divorcing an object from it's political or social meaning isn't, in my opinion, amoral because we all bring our own cultural assumptions and experiences with us when we use an object or action. Assuming that you share a spiritual connection or spiritual link to that culture is another issue entirely. I think, but I'm not sure, that we're talking about this latter issue here.

But then again, I think much of my line of thought presupposes some Western assumptions - that objects can be divorced from particular meaning and be socially constructed and reconstructed. Also, the idea of appropriating one more thing from a culture that has been so oppressed is pause for thought. I'm still trying to figure out if my Western-influenced view can ever be reconciled with an aboriginal or post-colonial view. Probably not.

Thanks Michael. I totally missed my amoral/immoral mix up. My bad. I do agree about the problem with white hegemony. It's one thing to borrow, but it's another thing to control cultural and communication networks to such an extent that it effectively obscures a marginalized culture's ability to excerise its own voice and contest the parts of the hegemonic narrative it disputes. There's definitely is a power imbalance in this case that trips up any attempt to talk about cultural apropriation that can occur when one or more cultures are on a relatively even footing.

[ 12 July 2007: Message edited by: Will S ]

The only people fooled by non-natives appropriating native cultural symbols, customs or what have you...are non-natives.

I sort of think of it as comparable to 'western Chinese food'. Bears almost no resemblance to the real thing. Empty calories.

NorthernWoman...I see no one took you up on your challenge [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

If that was the case then all of the people who were brought up in the residential school systems would be able to fit right back in with their people and culture?

But without that spirituality, where is our culture? The two are so inextricably linked. If you have the spirituality, is that a gateway into the culture? If you lack it...can you ever be a part of the culture?

Some say yes, some say no. For some it really is about blood...for others, blood is less important.

Having been brought up in a middle class environment, I found it difficult to fit in with my people because with them I was expected to give away to them anything extra that I had. This expectation IMO doesn't come from our culture but from my people being poor and when someone in the community has a windfall they are expected to share. My middle class upbringing taught me to help people but it also taught me to save my money for my old age, save my money to buy a house etc. This kind of thinking is foreign to my people because they are used to surviving. When they get money they pass it around until there is none left and then they are broke again. Is this cultural? No. But many would argue that it is.

quote:Originally posted by Yiwah:
I have deadbeat cousins too who I get sick of constantly bailing out of trouble, or passing money to. And yes, sometimes I feel guilty (or let them make me feel guilty) when I say no. But I have educated myself, I have built my life, with the knowledge that what I do will ultimately benefit my people. I'm willing to devote the bulk of my energy to that goal...so if I'm not as willing anymore to let some of my relations constantly leech off me...oh well.Thanks Yiwah. I do appreciate your words, so much. Yet, at least you have relations. Family, friends. Someone. For many of us in the abduction diaspora there is nothing. As much as I appreciated my elder whom I met for a couple of years, that doesn't make up for a lifetime of isolation, which the dominant society forced on the adbucted group. I am so fucking bitter.

quote:Originally posted by NorthernWoman:
i think that in poorer communities, people are your possessions and so when they begin to move on to better lifestyles, there is plenty of grousing about it only because they know in their hearts that these family members will be gone.Hm. So why is it that when diasporic NDNs try to reconnect there is such disinterest in us?

quote:Originally posted by NorthernWoman:
The gov't did and excellent job of turning FN against each other.Good point NW. But it still sucks knowing you have so many cousins and uncles who couldn't give a shit if you lived or died.

NW, that is such a thoughful post. It doesn't really address my point of the divide among reserve and what I call the 'diasporic' aboriginal, but I thank you, and I think I shall leave it for more consideration.

quote:Originally posted by Makwa:
Hm. So why is it that when diasporic NDNs try to reconnect there is such disinterest in us?

A big part of this is scarce resources. Look at how Bill C-31 people have been received. Very mixed reactions. Take an already stressed community, and then say, 'here are some more, go on, spread the money around' and you're bound to have people getting upset. And as NorthernWoman pointed out, many families are just surviving. People on the reserves are struggling to hold onto their culture themselves...trying to help people who have been away so long (yes, through no fault of their own) can seem pretty low on the list of priorities. It shouldn't be...but then again...there shouldn't be a lack of potable water, or housing, or available healthcare either.

There are communities who try to reach out, but it takes resources, and it's a painful journey. A horribly underfunded journey.

quote:But anyway, the Indian Act can be cited as just one cause for our divisions.

I think it is the whole cause of our division.

A very fascinating discussion.

The kind of interactions being described above are not exclusive to First Nations people. In fact, I think we can see the same phenomena in Black American culture, and in feminism. And in a thread last week, we were treated to a Jewish newspaper columnist looking down upon Hasidic Jews. And poor and working class whites experience the same kind of interactions within thier communities. And Quebecois entertainers who make the big time in America are seen as turning their back on thier culture. They aren't French enough anymore.

Barak Obama isn't Black, or Black enough according to some Black Americans.

I forget who, but someone in the Black American community used the anology of crabs in a bucket. The crabs will never escape, not because the bucket is too high, but because there are other crabs constantly grabbing and pulling the ones at the lip back into the bucket.

If I knew a solution to this problem, I'd offer one. But I don't know how it could be changed without changing the very nature of the human species.

Perseverence, I guess, is the answer.

I have a number of First Nations co-workers, and Saga's post on music a few days ago reminded me of one guy who was into traditional music. At the time, I didn't give it much thought, but it struck me after reading Saga's post that there is a dichotomy between the First Nations co-workers that are my age, around 50, and the younger co-workers who about twenty years junior.

The guys my age want to be invisible, and my attempts to encourage conversation about thier heritage is, while not rejected, quickly dead ended.

Not so with the younger guys.

I'm not sure what this has to do with white appropriation of Native culture, sorry.

quote: I think that the conflict within FN society is more fundamental than that. Whatever legislation erected by the white supremacist society is merely an expression of their overall hatred of us as a people.

You know, as much as I want to take issue with that statement, I really can't.

I could argue that such legislative attempts to divide First Nations peoples originate with a ruling class that finds it just as amusing and profitable to create divisions amoungst working class whites and poor whites.

But, like crabs in the bucket, working class whites and poor whites seem to, by and large, revel in someone else being kicked around by the polished oxford's of the Family Compact.

So, I will not defend. But I'd like to think that one day, we could all wisen up just a bit.

The bucket is confining.

I agree NorthernWoman...but I also think that for the reasons you've cited that yes, what has happened to aboriginal people all over the world is comparable to the repression, injustice, genocide and cultural assimilation enacted among other groups....in a general sense. The Kurds living in Turkey are a colonised people, their traditions and language forbidden...living under harsh, assimilationist policies. Etc.

However, getting beyond generalities, you will of course find many difference. I don't think the comparison hurts however, as a starting point.

Canada is in denial about a lot of things.

Really though, Makwa does have a very good point. And Tommy_Paine’s observations do contain commonalities. If we aren’t of any utility to the majority, then we’re a hindrance. We’re an obstacle, both physically and legally, when we try to express our desires. Our culture had become, to certain extent, a victim of that utility. Referring of course, to appropriation. Appropriation serves the majority.

Just to add: to the new age religions, our traditions, I think, simply provide an asthetic utility. And another thing... lol, we've also been guilty of appropriating our traditions. When we present them in a manner that pleases asthetics.

[ 18 July 2007: Message edited by: sknguy ]

http://www.940news.com/nouvelles.php?cat=23&id=71979

It would help if the govie did a little consulting before appropriating!

quote:

It would help if the govie did a little consulting before appropriating!
What I really like is the symbol of the Inukshuk being used for the Vancouver games...in what is decidedly NOT Inuit territory. Like holding games in Alberta and using a totem pole symbol.

Oh wait...totem poles don't go next to tipis?

quote:Originally posted by Yiwah:

What I really like is the symbol of the Inukshuk being used for the Vancouver games...in what is decidedly NOT Inuit territory. Like holding games in Alberta and using a totem pole symbol.

Oh wait...totem poles don't go next to tipis?

Aren't totem poles used to hold up tipis???

[img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

quote:Originally posted by Yiwah:

What...you mean things like...the fact that the medicine wheel is not a universal symbol? Nor are ribbon shirts traditional to all First Nations and Metis? Etc?

I'm actually thinking more of things like dream catchers and brades of sweetgrass used as ornamentation; the occassions when we don't use things for their intended purposes. I've been guilty of this in the past too. So, I was thinking when we misrepresent their underlying meanings.

There is something that underlies the use of "things". At some point, a spirit made a contribution to your existence, by offering you something to help you. Whether it's food or anything else. It's one thing to appropriate things, and to missrepresent them. But a more fundamental issue is the manner of honouring the Spirits. That's a whole other but related topic. I can't speak to anything other than what's Nakawe.

As long as something used is; 1. serving a necessary purpose, and 2. respectful of the Spirit. If someone is disrespecting something you've given them, you can always take it back and give it to someone else.

I have been thinking about the use of symbols, in the context of things that are used as part of ceremony, that have a spiritual significance.

When I was growing up, there was no use of sweetgrass in a ceremony. We used sweetgrass in the making of things, which we then used to sell, in order to support our families. Now, many of my Anishinaabe people use sweetgrass to do smudging ceremonies. To me, it is not the sweetgrass that is important so much as the prayers that accompany the burning of it, it is the respectful, humble feelings, and feeling of gratitude, that one has during the ceremony. I personally would not mind if a non-indigenous person used sweetgrass, or sage, to do a smudging ceremony, as long as the person doing it was respectful and loving toward others. If it was done for the right reasons.

We also have to remember that many things have been lost, when Christianity came to our people, when our children were taken away from us and put into residential schools. In my community, when I was a child in the 50s and 60s, there were no ceremonies, we were not taught our language. At the same time, many Catholic ceremonies were appropriated by our ancestors, and used to keep alive some of our traditions. Are they still Anishinaabe? Yes, I believe so. When I lived in northwestern Ontario, my mother-in-law would come to my house, every once in a while and she would throw a handful of cedar on the stove, and the sweet smell would pervade the house. At the time, I did not realize she was smudging, as it is called now. I only know she did it without a whole lot of fanfare (I can’t think of the appropriate word in English), and she did it to teach me by showing me.

For those who grew up without a connection to a community, and there are many of our people who did, those children stolen, and put in schools or adopted out, it can be very hard. I would say to those, that it is up to you to develop your traditions. You know that you have lost something, and it is up to you to find it again.
I am not saying that Anishinaabe traditions are not deserving of respect, and those who grew up with it are very fortunate. But it seems to me that these traditions, that started thousands of years ago, were started by someone. Some one of our ancestors decided that a ceremony of remembrance was needed, and thought of one or dreamed of one, and acted on it, and passed it on to their relatives.
I recently lost my brother, and we decided to do a ceremony of remembrance. We had bits and pieces from the memories of our family members. And though we did not know the whole of it, we went ahead and did it anyway. I am sure that the spirit of my brother was pleased at what we did, because we did it to remember him, and we did it out of love.

So we can choose what our path will be, we can decide as respectful, loving human beings to recognize our connection to the earth, to our ancestors, and to people and beings who live on this earth. We can choose who our family is, by blood, by spiritual connections, by friendship, by what the Creator has put on our path. He/she did not give us life for no reason, but for us to learn from each other, and become strong from adversity. To keep on. I am sorry if I sound like I am preaching, that is not my intent, but to share my experience, and to help a little.

I would also like to comment on the appropriation by white people of symbols of FN culture. The only thing that I would speak out against is for someone who is not indigenous of a particular tribe, to pretend to be one. I know that this has happened, but speaking for myself, for someone to do this is disrespectful, not only of the culture that they are appropriating for themselves, it is disrespectful of their own culture. For those whose spirituality includes a belief in a Creator (as mine does), it is also a slap at the hands of the Creator, who gave you the gift of life. And often, they (the pretenders) do not know, that we know, that they are not who they say they are. And a lot of times, such people are avoided.

For those who have been trained as medicine people, I think it is they who decide who to pass on their knowledge to. I think they are looking for apprentices, who have the courage, the desire, and who understand the responsibility that is involved. I have attended sweat lodges, and it is true that one goes into a lodge, not for oneself, but to help another. And usually, in doing so, one is helped at the same time. There has to be a compelling reason to go into a lodge. It can be a powerful experience, but only if one has the right attitude, which is respectful and humble. I don’t think you can fool the spirits of the ancestors, or of the Creator. If one goes in for purely physical reasons, such as in a sauna, then that is what you will get out of it.

I thought I would share a little of my experience, and to add to the discussions, that I find very interesting.
I am not sure why I posted this, but I felt it necessary for me to speak.

Miigwech.

Ah-how, Makwa. I think that you’d made good use of the things you’ve been given opportunity to use. You’ve made a Spiritual use of a Spiritual thing. It seems a complicated thing, our relationships with the "things" we use. All the protocols and traditions. And it’s impossible to understand everything about how those relationships work. These traditions, symbols, and objects we use are all about maintaining respectful relationships.

Part of my job is helping my community figure out how these things, these concepts, can possibly function along side modern living. It’s tough. I haven’t learned the patience of the Elders. How to accept and come to terms with my frustrations with modern living. The toughest part is the seeming indifference towards the knowledge.

quote:Originally posted by zazzo:

So we can choose what our path will be, we can decide as respectful, loving human beings to recognize our connection to the earth, to our ancestors, and to people and beings who live on this earth. We can choose who our family is, by blood, by spiritual connections, by friendship, by what the Creator has put on our path. He/she did not give us life for no reason, but for us to learn from each other, and become strong from adversity. To keep on. I am sorry if I sound like I am preaching, that is not my intent, but to share my experience, and to help a little.

That is true. It is all about relationships. The things we’ve learned from our environment lives on in the knowledge we pass on. Just as generations of unnamed people have preserved this knowledge for us. We have to be confident in the knowledge that what we invest in the children, and their generations, is what lives on. If someone makes use of something, it should be for the benefit of maintaining that healthy, respectful relationship. That's how we teach. I should add... "and what we teach".

[ 20 July 2007: Message edited by: sknguy ]

I was out at a concert a while back in a fairly "hipster" bar and the opening act's lead singer was wearing a traditional feathered head dress on her head...

I've certainly heard plenty about this (apparent) trend, but can't say that I've noticed it locally. At least not in the hipster context. Now local hippies...

Is it a new trend? I am not aware that it ever went away.

I've just started reading but wish I could draw on stuff like this more often:

What a great way to start a discussion. I need to save that.

I'm not a good reader, so many words Maysie. ;)

Etsy Is A Breeding Ground For Native American Stereotypes

sknguy, I should have said this earlier, but that was a great post.

More from the Uh-oh department:

Johnny Depp as Cultural Appropriation Jack Sparrow...I mean Tonto.