Saganash's leadership prospects
December 30, 2011 - 1:17am
Because Canadians are too racist to vote for him. Even better to be my first choice for leader of the NDP.
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.
That seems like spurious logic, RP. Canadians obviously weren't "too racist" to vote for him for the House of Commons. Given that NDP leadership election voters would presumably be less racist than the population as a whole, it seems silly to think that race would play much of a factor.
Although it's obviously generalizing, I'm comfortable presuming that America is more "racist" than Canada, generally. But Americans obviously weren't "too racist" to elect a black man president.
Guess it just flies over your head Mr.T. Sorry to be so blunt. You think Canadians voted him to the House of Comments?
Why would you think NDP voters to be less racist as a whole?
And seriously, the Americans were almost racist enough. Do you pay attention to the different election results? Jus' askin'
And that Obama sure is freeing those fields isn't he?
Not trying to pick a fight with you, RP. Just wondering what you're basing this notion that Canadians are "too racist" to vote for him on.
How many card carrying NDP members who would not vote for someone based on skin colour do you think there are out there?
Umm, basically from the fact that he doesn't even get mentioned. I wouldn't know he was in the race if I didn't frequent babble. I've asked you some questions you haven't answered.
I don't think most NDP'ers still have a hangup on skin colour, I think they still have a hangup on gender. Sounds funny in this forum, but it's not. Romeo is very much a beacon for women's rights as he's a beacon for all human rights.
C'mon dude, you can't tell me with a straight face, you've even considered him as a PM.
Yes, he doesn't get mentioned much because the media tends to focus on the perceived frontrunners and he's not one of them. The NDP leadership race is incredibly crowded nd the media focuses on those who they think have the best shot. In the Republican presidential race down south, Rick Santorum and Jon Huntsman get less media attention than Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich because they're considered longshot candidates, not cause of skin colour.
No, I haven't considered him as a PM (though my mind may change before the end of the race). But me not supporting him has nothing to do with his skin colour and more to do with the fact that I really don't know him, given that he was just recently elected and represents a province I don't live in. My vote isn't firm but if the election were held today, I'd vote for Peggy Nash because I like her experience and I'm more familiar with her, given that I live in Toronto.
Right on, I don't follow the US too much.
And I understand your vote preference but you've done nothing to refute the premise I started with?
And if you wanted to know him it's not that hard. You just don't care to look. Can't blame you. That's how most folk are.
I haven't refuted the premise because you've offered no evidence to suggest that the premise is true in the first place.
That a person of colour isn't leading in the polls is not evidence, in and of itself, that it's because voters are racist. The reason Herman Cain isn't going to be the Republican presidential nominee isn't because he's black.
Alright fine, Mr. Tea, you've proven you are not interested in discourse.
Perhaps, I shouldn't be hasty. Do you think Mr. Saganash has been given a fair shake considering his platform? Compared to others?
If not, why's that so? How did Barack Obama get elected? Selling out his own people. Do you think Romeo will do that? How come he doesn't get media? Pause and reflect.
I think he doesn't get media attention because of racism.
I think he might have a lot more support from NDP members if his English debate performance hadn't been so poor. Hopefully he can be more impressive when healthy in future debates.
Really, one debate disqualifies him?
I hope better of my NPD friends.
I think he doesn't get media attention because of racism.
I think he might have a lot more support from NDP members if his English debate performance hadn't been so poor. Hopefully he can be more impressive when healthy in future debates.
It's not just one debate performance. At the federal convention in Vancouver this summer, on the televised debate, and at the BCNDP convention all-candidates forum - in each venue Saganash seemed hesitant and physically uncomfortable talking to a big crowd in English. I love what he has to say, I find him charming for sure, and I want to like him more, but I just don't thing that he is prepared - today - to lead the Official Opposition into an election. I would be similarly hesitant to send Dewar into that role based on how he comes across in French.
I never said it disqualified him.
Currently I have Saganash #6, which might seem low, and it is last out of the candidates I view as top tier or credible.
But I am certainly open to ranking him higher, and potentially I would rank him #1.
But he needs to show more comfort and confidence in an English debate setting first.
In the first debate it seemed to me he was mumbling into his chest the whole time. If he was sick, then that's understandable. If you're sick the day of the exam, you get to write it another day, but you don't get an automatic A.
Heading into the BC Town Hall I had Saganash #5 and Cullen 6. I thought Saganash performed better here than at the first debate, but Cullen shined, and so Saganash got bumped down to #6.
If Saganash can show that he in comfortable and confident in this kind of debate format in English, then he will move up in my list very quickly.
But don't expect that a poor (IMO, very poor) performance in the first debate is going to be anything but a negative for a candidate.
I read his blogs and Facebook posts, and I don't seen any difficulty in his English whatsoever. He did a one-on-one interview with Evan Solomon on P&P and his English was perfect.
Well, Saganash is known to be comfortable in the media spotlight, so perhaps he's fine one-on-one with an interviewer or a small group. He seems to get shakier with a big audience and some competition, which worries me because this is friendly competition - how much worse would it be with hostile competition? But if I see clear evidence that his spontaneous debate skills are improving, he could move several spots up my ballot. Until then I consider him to be a valuable member of the team nonetheless, and he would be great in cabinet.
I think he has more support in this race because he's Cree.
Maybe. But that would be just a modicum of support, until hitting the glass ceiling... because he is Cree.
I'm rooting for him. Let him win or lose by his own merits, not "Well, I'd support him, but I know OTHER people wouldn't, so I won't..."
My remark might be interpreted a number of ways.
It was mostly the expression of an objection to the previous post, and it would be more fully expressed as:
"Maybe. But if that were true, then it would be just a modicum of support, until hitting the glass ceiling... because he is Cree."
Romeo running for the top spot is a challenge in more ways than I can count.
Because he is not your conventional candidate for the leadership of the Opposition, period. [WAY beyond the challenging in itself fact that he is Cree.]
I'll agree with that.
If Romeo were to win, what would Harper be able to use against him to frame Conservative attack ads? Is he more or less vulnerable than the other candidates in this respect? I find this to be a very interesting question.
Unfortunately writer, I think it would be all too easy to use racism against Romeo, even without ever doing anything overt.
Especially, just about anywhere in the West.
I'm not so sure about that, Ken. For one thing, a racist campaign would confirm people's worst fears about Harper. A racist campagin may also motivate the First Nations to vote in larger numbers, and they certainly wouldn't vote for the Conservatives in that scenario.
If it ever happened, there would be nothing overt. Nothing like the ugly Reform anti-Quebec ads of 1997.
First Nations people would see it of course, as would a lot of people. But we dont vote for them anyway, and I'm sure they wouldtake the ugly benefits as a trade-off for a few more FN coming out to vote.... including the sacrifice of the tipping point in a few close seats in the hinterlands of the West.
I'm not going to get into it, but suffice to say I can see the ads.
If you have lived anywhere in the West where there is a sizeable FN population close by- which is a LOT of plces- you should be able to get the idea.
Unlike RP, I do not think that means Romeo cannot win. In fact, there are ways that being FN, the adversity faced, etc, could be a convincing narrative with a lot of people who I would describe as 'comfortably racist' about First Nations people... who would vote for someone like Romeo in spite of that.
But let's not fool ourselves about what is out there and can be used.
For myself, If Romeo does not win... I hope very much that the new Leader sees how compellingly we need Romeo to be in every Candians living room on a regular basis.
He is smart, articulate, charming, very knowledgable... and after the leadership race no one will be able to think he was elevated to the front of the front benches because he is Cree and the NDP are a bunch of sappy liberals.
Romeo's presence in living rooms will go a long way to the healing we need.
Aristotleded24, it would also turn off a whole lot of the Conservatives' new support. There goes the 905, for example. Conservatives paid a high price for their ad making fun of Chretien's mouth. I don't think this kind of mistake is something they are eager to repeat.
They'd *want* to use it. But they'd know enough to not use it. At least not overtly. And it would really, really bug them.
The Ontario Conservatives had no problem running a racist campaign in October 2011. One could even argue, given their increase in seats, that they were successful.
Aboriginal people over 18 are less than 5% of Canada's population.
The Conservatives are very good at learning from past campaigns.
One thing they are good at is learning from total failure- adapting to pursue the same end in a better way.
There will never again be anything like the Chreiten ads [and they were amateurs then].... but that leaves PLENTY of other territory for them to play ugly.
And the ads would go right over the heads of everyone in Ontario except people who hate them. Even if it were pointed out to swing voters in the 905 how it was being done, they still wouldnt get it. Just think us paranoid... another reason to vote Conservative.
Check my location line. I've lived in the Prairies for almost all my life, I know full well how bad anti-First Nations racism can be. It is also the case that the participation rates of Aboriginal voters is very low (whether we are talking urban aboriginals or First Nations), but if they come out in large enough numbers, changes will happen. Even a slight increase in First Nations turn-out costs the Conservatives Churchill River, Saskatoon-Rosetown-Biggar, and Palliser off the hop.
And they were willing to write off more seats than that in Quebec as a tradeoff for generalized benefits.
Definite benefits versus costs that are 'reasonable' even IF there is a large ramp-up of aboriginal votes in reaction.
Polarization works for the Conservatives. Of course not, if they go about it clumsily. But clumsy is not the only way, and if it results in 'controlled polarization'... works for them.
Compare and contrast, though, with the polarization available to them with the other candidates. Maysie, thanks for the reminder.
If Romeo doesn't win, I think he'd make a great Deputy Leader. I'd actually like to see two Deputy Leaders again - a team of Saganash and Ashton would be awesome if neither wins the leadership.
The Ontario Conservatives had no problem running a racist campaign in October 2011. One could even argue, given their increase in seats, that they were successful.
Aboriginal people over 18 are less than 5% of Canada's population.
I would qualify that a bit. Those Conservatives were heading for a comfortable majority government, if you believed the polls. What seemed to stall them and then make them slide right out of forming government was the overt racist nature of their attacks of the Liberal hiring proposal. So I don't know that it is a given that they were 'sucessful'. It was still ugly and I saw up front and personal how some people reacted to the racist tone of that campaign, including a guy at one meeting who looked like he was going to have an organsim clapping every time the Conservative candidate played that racist card in comments, but I am not sure successful is the right word.
On the broader question, many of the people you are talking about are not in the NDP universe anyway. Romeo's approach to politics and the kind of issues he is speaking about will appeal to a great many Canadians who have grown tired of the sword fighting that passes for political discourse in this country. Of course there is overt and hidden racism in Canada, but I believe even more Canadians could care less about a person's background if the person leading a party is talking about our values and building the Canada we know we could be. It isn't that they will stop being racist, but that other things will trump it.
On the broader question, many of the people you are talking about are not in the NDP universe anyway. Romeo's approach to politics and the kind of issues he is speaking about will appeal to a great many Canadians who have grown tired of the sword fighting that passes for political discourse in this country.
Those two sentences are two entirely different things. The first one is what touches on the 'downsides' we are talking about.
I'm more than a bit rluctant to get into illustrating with examples how it works, but without going there bear these things in mind, all of which people know, but need to be taken together:
** racism is very very deep.
** and in many people- most- it 'operates' far from out in the open.
** our universe of voters is just as subject to that as other white people [and a lot of people of colour when it comes to First Nations].
Triggering a negative reaction in white people is all too easy- very often without the targets being aware in the slightest. Thay are not making a decision based on a concious assesment that includes the race of the person presented to them.
It would never be something like "Should this man be your Prime Minister?"
But a lot of the same people who would register a backlash on something like that against the perpetrators of the ad, would be unaware they are being negatively influenced by more subtle ads.
It works, and there is no basis for confidence that it would not work on voters in the NDP universe who would normally be receptive to Romeo's approach.
Considering how ugly racism is in Canada, I am surprised people are skeptical about this.
Compare and contrast, though, with the polarization available to Conservatives with the other candidates. And is Canada more racist than the U.S.?
But again, despite all that and because of that, there is every reason to have Romeo very prominent in the NDP.
Wearing down racism [if that is an appropriate term] is as subtle as is people deliberating using racism in non-overt ways.
Having Romeo in living rooms will help heal this country of the scars.
And following what BA says, people will like having their better selves catered to.
I'm not sure about 'more' [less] racist at all, as a concept.
But as far as the US and Canada go, they are more different in nature than they are more/less.
Racism in the US is very violenet, and very much on the surface. But the forms of it that can be played on without people knowing about it, I do not see one bit of difference with Canada.
And if anything, anti-aboriginal racism is uglier in canda than in the US.... although part of that MAY be more an effect of Candains being more likely to live close or close-ish to aboriginal communities.
This is making vey uneasy by the way. I'm not sure what to do about that, or exactly why.
My point: the U.S. elected someone that many thought was unelectable. He's president now.
My other point: I believe the other candidates are in fact *much easier* for the Conservatives to target with negative advertising.
Ken- Canada is still a deeply sexist society. Does that mean we should also be warning off electing a woman next?
All candidates have negatives and positives. All of them. I am not going to let what some little old lady from Summerside wants to call Romeo in her head, or even out loud dictate who I will support for leader. I am looking for a few things in my leadership choice, but my top two things are;
1. who best represents my values and the values of the party?
2. who is best able to be contrasted positively with Stephen Harper as offering a better way forward and can articulate it in a way that resonates in communities, big and small right across the country?
I am comfortable with all, but now one of the candidates, being able to answer that twofold test. But on balance I beleive Romeo Saganash is the best situated to contrast with Harper and to articulate values I believe are important for the future of this country. That's the way forward.
double post sorry
Definite benefits versus costs that are 'reasonable' even IF there is a large ramp-up of aboriginal votes in reaction.
Polarization works for the Conservatives. Of course not, if they go about it clumsily. But clumsy is not the only way, and if it results in 'controlled polarization'... works for them.
There's a difference. They never had that many seats in Quebec to begin with, and it was always a tough nut for them to crack. In Western Canada, they have pretty much maxed their seats, and have nowhere to go but down. Even if a racist campaign helps the Conservatives defend their seats, it certainly won't gain them any new ones, and I'm certain that an increase in turn-out of the Aboriginal vote will offset this. A slight or modest increase, and the 3 Saskatchewan seats I mentioned fall. A strong turn-out puts nearly every seat in Western Canada in play.
And you also glossed over the fact that I live in the region where this dynamic plays out particularly strongly.
I'm not warning off Romeos electability.
I think people are being sanguine about ehat would turn up.
My gut feeling is that concerns me in its own right- that it is not just about Romeo's electability.
And I'm not glossing over where you live A- maybe I'm just paranoid, but what needs to be looked at is not just the fact of racism and how 'much' there is. Its a question of how pervasive, the 'reach,' and how easily played on.
I'm certainly not contrasting Romeo to other candidates- there are criteria that matter too much for me that he just cannot meet, barring some different showing from them.
I haven't even considered what I think about the 'electability' question. To me Romeo is a rookie, and no amount of experience outside electoral politics can make up for that. So the electability question is kind of hypothetical to me; but my opinion is that if he could get as far as coming out front, racism 'just' would make him being the Leader complicated- not unelectable.
Ken, I haven't said anything comparing or contrasting Saganash to any of the other candidates. I am also well aware of how problematic racism is, especially where I live in Western Canada, but I feel as if you're talking to me as if I don't have any awareness of the situation at all.
There’s been something that has been bothering about this thread and the discussion. It is based on a sense of despair that nothing will ever change. That nothing can change. I don’t believe it. If I believed that nothing can ever be changed, even if it happens at a glacier pace, than I would never have joined the NDP, I would never have developed the progressive values I hold, I am not even sure I would ever venture outside my door.
I think back to my childhood where my mother waged a lonely battle, against not only her employer, but her union, for recognition of the equal value of her work. I think of my childhood friend and his father both being given the same nickname because they were black and expected to take it as a joke in both the workplace and the classroom. I think of the deep fear another friend had that others would find out he liked boys and then hugging him, both of us weeping for joy, moments after he married the love of his life. I think of these things and I have to believe things have become a little better, not great, not what I or any of us would want, but just ever so slightly better.
I live in hope. I refuse to give in to despair that we can’t change things. I know that sexism, racism and homophobia and more still all exist and that they are pernicious, strong and evil foes. But still I refuse to believe we can’t change. I refuse to believe that fighting for change isn’t worth it. I refuse to believe that the forces that would hold back sharing and celebrating our common humanity and our differences should be allowed to win because we have left the ice. I won’t do it. I can’t
Instead I will try to listen and learn from others and greet their experiences with an open heart. Instead I will try to raise my children to believe in a future that is better and to understand it is going to take work to get there. Instead I will try to live my life by my values, not my cultural baggage. Instead I will choose to believe that a hand raised in greeting is better than a hand raised in anger. Instead I will choose to believe that we can listen to the better angels of our nature. Instead I will choose to believe in love, hope and optimism.
It won’t be easy. There will be set backs along the way. It will take longer to get to where we want and hope to be than we will like. Sometimes victories will feel like defeats. But it is the only way to true and lasting change.
Call me naive and hopeless, but I refuse to give into a sense of despair and let it define the future I want for my party, for my country and in the end for my family, friends and neighbours. I believe we can make Canada better. And I believe Romeo Saganash is the candidate most capable of defeating Stephen Harper in 2015.
I belive that too, Bookish A, but I don't agree with your analysis. There's been a reason he's being IGNORED in the media. You can debate that until the cows come home but it's true.
What do we do?
We keep questioning why?
Pardon my youth, but WTF?
I refuse to be naive and hopeless, real NDP'ers(not a purity test)should be enthused. What has he said that is so controversial? I saw your words in another thread and really appreciated them BA. We should expect so much of our leaders. Yes, Romeo talks slow, that's how elders speak. Canadians don't understand that. And that's where my premise for the thread comes from. I'm not naive, but I'm not angry. I'm hopeful, optomistic and full of love. That's how we come together. Hopefully, BA, we can come to some consensus that Romeo is being ignored to the benefit of others.
Benefit of others being my key words, if you get my drift.
Sorry for starting such a contentious thread but it is my firm belief, I'll get onto my second choice soon.
Lost a post. Ya, BA, it wasn't you I was addressing. Fuck...
The guy's been ignored as we can all see the women are being too. I almost felt bad for supporting Romeo at first, but like the reason I started this thread is to posssibly move support to Ashton or Nash if people are too racist to support Romeo.
No offence to other babbler's but the MSM slop seems to have been swallowed.
BA, to pick up on your point about living in hope, consider this:
Few people thought that the US would ever elect a black President within even our children's lifetimes. Yet we have all witnessed that. And it's true, old voting patterns and prejudices did rear their ugly head prior to that accomplishment. And white people overwhelmingly voted for McCain, with one important exception: those under 29 broke for Obama, and being relatively close to that age group, I can assure you that we don't care about skin colour. We've lived in several parts of the country and all over the world, we accept people's differences, and if you can appeal to us in the next election, our votes will be more than enough to take the NDP over the top.
Those 3 individuals are on my short list for consideration.
BA, to pick up on your point about living in hope, consider this:
Few people thought that the US would ever elect a black President within even our children's lifetimes. Yet we have all witnessed that. And it's true, old voting patterns and prejudices did rear their ugly head prior to that accomplishment. And white people overwhelmingly voted for McCain, with one important exception: those under 29 broke for Obama, and being relatively close to that age group, I can assure you that we don't care about skin colour. We've lived in several parts of the country and all over the world, we accept people's differences, and if you can appeal to us in the next election, our votes will be more than enough to take the NDP over the top.
You just made my night. Thanks dudeéÉdudetee!
If that isn't self - depracating, what is?
:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dcVOmEQzKA&feature=related
There’s been something that has been bothering about this thread and the discussion. It is based on a sense of despair that nothing will ever change. That nothing can change. I don’t believe it.
Bit of thread drift here, because I think the 'activist approach question' is moot as far as Romeo's campaign goes.
But on that general question digging into 'hard realities' does not equal despair, nor necessarily lead to dropping things because they are 'too hard'. And NOT digging into the hard realities has its costs too. Leaving it at only 'lets do this' means that you forgo the chance to be prepared for some obstacles, and it is hard on morale over the haul of 10 to 50 years of activism.
That said, thinking about it a bit, I cannot see that there is anything useful that can be done by Romeo's campaign around how people will deal with Romeo the obviously aboriginal person. And I say that knowing that Obama's campaign put a great deal of energy and thought and hard research into how to neutralize the effects of racism on his candidacy.... HOW to overcome the racism in those legions of white swing Dem/Rep voters who did ultimately vote for him. And they did that work all the way from early in his nomination campaign, through to election day.
Because as far as a campaign within the NDP goes, I think its pretty simple:
Countering the negative narrative that Romeo cannot win because he is aboriginal, is bound to be like trying to argue in rational discursive terms any other negative narrative that comes your way... you cannot win that way. And the attempt will just feed the narrative's effectiveness.
You go around negative narratives. Even blunting it is done largely or wholy through indirect means. In this case, narratives that have nothing to do with race and being aboriginal. [Which is a reason by the way that Romeo needs to be careful about how much and when he launches from his overcoming adversity narrative. It is a very good 'hook' and it is a lot of who Romeo is and what he has to say- but it is a double edged sword for him.]
This whole discussion may be a wandering and complicated way of expressing of what I thought as soon as I saw the thread title:
"This can't help Romeo."
Unless its a cathartic or reflective thing that even enthusiastic supporters need to work through for themselves.
Blunting the effects of racism on decisions of the universe of potential supporters looks in a general way something like this:
Understanding the operative racism in a general way does no good beyond helping you get at what you need. In a campaign you can do zero about the bigger picture of racism as it effects your candidate.
And besides, your target audience is people who "only" have the standard racist images and narratives mixed in with values that connect with your candidates appeal. You simply are not intereste in the people who would not vote for an Indian [and too few of them ever vote NDP to be worrying about them anyway].
So you sit down and 'unpack' all those racist images and narratives- make them as concrete as you can. Pictures and really basic concepts.
Then you set about looking for qualities in your candidate that are the opposite of those negative tropes. Build them up, and draw attention to them. It is a natural reaction for the candidate to feel like a lot of that is acting. Work with him on that. Work these alternative images and narratives into media and publicity.
Also take a look at what might be inadvertently playing into the negatives that you are working to blunt. The most obvious example of that is Romeo's story of overcoming adversity. Because the 'overcoming' part you want is pulling a caboose of Indians as victims that runs completely counter to the job description of Leader. So you think about how much and when and how Romeo brings out that part of his biography.
None of this requires in the least tarnishing the authenticity and sponataneity that is a big part of Romeo's appeal. For one thing, the senior campaign people are the ones that do the work, not Romeo. They work on it a lot, and present him with options.
I do hate this thread title, and was extremely ambivalent about posting at all. I find it somewhat offensive that we're announcing Romeo can't possibly win in the aboriginal issues and culture forum. What kind of message is that? Not a progressive one, at the very least. Certainly not an empowering one.
As a result, I think this will be my last comment here. Otherwise, what BA said. Beautifully.
I do hate this thread title, and was extremely ambivalent about posting at all.
I agree about the thread title - but we know it was posted in frustration by RP, and that it nonetheless addresses an issue which needs to be aired. I'm really encouraged by the direction of some of the comments here, and I'm grateful to you (writer) in particular for pointing us to some important information about Saganash's life and work.
All this to say, that I think the better course is to ask the mods to change the thread title to something like, "Romeo Saganash's leadership prospects" - if that's ok with you and others. I don't want to lose your voice or others' here, nor have to hunt around different threads while there's still something important to be said on this precise topic.
I understand RP's choice but agree that another thread title is in order. Upon request, I have made that change.
Ahem, Ken:
I still don't get the sense that anything I have said (or anyone else, for that matter) has registered with you.
Romeo Saganash on the Next Election
An example of how it's possible to communicate priorities and vision without putting others down ... in fact, while *raising others up*.
Edited to add: Thanks so much for the title change. It means a lot!
Romeo Saganash on the Next Election
An example of how it's possible to communicate priorities and vision without putting others down ... in fact, while *raising others up*.
Thanks for this link, writer. The more I see him speak, the more convinced I am of his potential to win and change political discourse in this country.
I would love to see more public endorsements.
Honestly? I'm more excited by a groundswell than endorsements from on high. I'm more interested in a party of the people than followers taking cues from powerbrokers. Endorsements are nice, don't get me wrong. Popular movement? Nicer.
When I say public endorsements, I mean from well-recognized and respected people who are not politicians or powerbrokers, writer. I'd like to see artists, environmentalists, youth groups and many other activists endorse him.
Ah! Me too! Want to do some brainstorming in private?
An example of how it's possible to communicate priorities and vision without putting others down ... in fact, while *raising others up*.
He. Is. Good.
Thanks for changing the title. I apologize for my frustration. I just thought it needed to be talked about. #nativeguyproblems
Thanks for the link writer.
In the future, don't hesitate to change my thread titles if I haven't put enough thought into them. I'm not a good writer but I put a tonne of thought into this thread topic and seeing some of the progress that has been made and where we have to go.
It's all good, RP, and thank you for opening this discussion. Things about Saganash have started penetrating my thick skull that wouldn't have done so, but for what I've seen on babble. And I sense it happening to other babblers too. It shows how pervasive the propaganda of the MSM and indeed the whole culture is, even (or maybe especially) when it's just their extremely effective Wall of Silence.
Romeo Saganash on FB just now:
"It's unfortunate that one of the very first programs that Harper cut was the preservation of Aboriginal languages in the country."
https://www.facebook.com/RomeoSaganash
(This is a quote that comes from a question and answer about the preservation of Aboriginal languages. He also talks about what is needed to keep languages alive, and mentions that, as prime minister, he'd put the program back in place.)
Absoultly agree that the media narrative should be questioned. And I understand your frustration.
My comments had much more to do with the borderline offensive comments made by some that re-enforced that narrative. I am getting more than tired of those kinds of interventions in general, but mostly in terms of Romeo's candidacy. Comments that are subltly implying that we should abandon support for Romeo because you can't beat that narrative. I don't agree that should be a consideration in any way. I think Romeo's qualities and views are exactly what we should be supporting and incidently are the road forward to removing Harper from government in 2015.
On a more positive note, I am reposting the link to a feature that some here might not have had the chance to see yet. I think it reveals some of the qualities and views that are so appealing about Romeo. Also some of his character, determination and humble, powerful ambition.
"Running with Romeo" is just under 1/2 an hour, and it's well worth the time. This CBC program is in Cree & French with English subtitles.
What writer said. Watch the video.
I agree that Romeo has great qualities, and I want to support him. But I am very concerned about his ability to present himself in English, and that he needs to have a "mean streak" that would be very well targeted at Harper. I remember his performance in the English portion of the NDP debate, and if he's stumbling that much in a friendly crowd, how much more so will he with Harper trying to rip him apart? It would be a shame if these difficulties prevent Romeo from doing well, as I believe he has a great deal to offer.
You do know that he had bronchitis that day, yes?
As for this being able to face down bullies. How about playing a role developing an international declaration that the governments of Canada, the U.S., Australia and New Zealand band together to defeat? With representatives from those countries aggressively trying to convince the world that the declaration should not be supported.
How about going to representatives of countries around the world, countering the opposition of the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand?
How about persuading the majority of the countries on Earth to support your declaration, despite being challenged by such forceful, powerful foes?
Because that's what Romeo did. And that's why the UN passed the International Declaration of Indigenous Rights. A declaration Canada has since signed on to. He did it with intelligence, generosity and sound argument. Not with a "mean streak".
Harper? Peanuts.
Personally, I've had enough with mean streaks dominating our culture. You?
I don't think we need meaness. What we need is an internal toughness (although I am not sure that is the word I want) Romeo has demonstrated it through out his career. Going up against a mean-spirited Harper in 2015 with our own version of meanness will not provide us with a breathrough in the areas we need to in order to defeat them. We are fast approaching 50 per cent of us not voting. We will get there if we continue with this alpha wolf politics that is turning people off. I believe strongly that Romeo can provide a counterpoint to the meanness motiff. That's what I am looking for.
I believe others in the race could provide it as well, but Romeo, for me at least, has the whole package.
And what writer said.
What BA and writer said - with regard to Romeo's style and character, anyway. I don't much care about his "platform" (i.e., I don't know what it is). If his history, his record, his struggle, his direction are with the interests of the people, he'll do just fine. And so far, I'm more than impressed on that score - thanks to some people here pointing me in the right direction.
Thank you, Unionist.
I try to imagine being a small child, 6 maybe, and being taken away from my family. Being forced into a far-away school where my language isn't spoken. I pick up the new language, but I do not speak it, not a word. For 2 years. I am angry. I want to go home.
Then one day, I am called into the principal's office. I am told that my father has died. I am told there is no money to send me back for the funeral. And I understand that this is where I'll be for a while. And I begin to speak.
How tough is Harper to face, after an experience like that? How tough am I? And how miraculous is it that I do not have a mean streak? Instead, I have a life-long need to address social injustices like those my family, my people and I survived. A commitment to human rights. An understanding of how cultures live. And die.
Harper is a child of Leaside – still playing games with toy soldiers – in comparison.
Great posts writer and BA.
I love the term "alpha wolf politics" - that really does describe the toxic tone set by Harper. What Harper and his minions did to Dion was publicly sanctioned bullying. How they behave day in and out is ugly. I'm all for standing up to abusers and tyrants but not by playing along with such bully tactics. Like BA pointed out, we have less and less people voting because it's hard to respect these politicians and believe that they are in Parliament to represent you.
Romeo has something that is very appealing, a refreshing change of pace that I think could be very much appreciated by voters, especially younger people who are fed up with the bullshit. And I agree with whomever said that the Harper gang would be hard pressed to find a negative angle to campaign against him without looking like racist a**holes.
It's up to the membership to decide who they want to lead them but I think they would be really foolish to dismiss Romeo as a non credible contender. He's still my first choice. He seems to personify integrity. And that in itself is more convincing that any words about platform promises.
writer, you so nailed what incredible toughness, courage, it takes to live through that and still be so generous and compassionate to others. It's a state of mind that leads to respectful resolution as opposed to show of force.
First off, I have difficulty accepting the bronchitis explanation because Romeo did much better in French.
I think maybe BA's phrase of "internal toughness" is a better term to use than what I would call "mean streak." What I meant by that is that even though Jack Layton had a reputation of being a happy warrior, he was not all "sweetness and light." He could get very angry and sometimes he would criticize Harper without mincing words. There is, to my mind, a difference between that and the bullying that Harper does.
I agree that Romeo is a good candidate, and I have a gut feeling about him. But I think the challenge is there, and it's doable. The comparison I would use is if a job seeker is a superb candidate but has difficulty with the actual interview. That's a whole different thing than having skeletons in one's closet, for example.
He does have the support of young musicians already.
Aristotleded24, I guess you weren't able to watch the Town Hall in BC then, where his English performance was better. And you weren't able to see his summation, which began in Cree. Wow.
https://twitter.com/#!/jimmydouglass/status/145684399827062784
https://twitter.com/#!/judemacdonald/status/145689731785691136
How tough is Harper to face, after an experience like that? How tough am I? And how miraculous is it that I do not have a mean streak? Instead, I have a life-long need to address social injustices like those my family, my people and I survived. A commitment to human rights. An understanding of how cultures live. And die.
Harper is a child of Leaside – still playing games with toy soldiers – in comparison.
Before I get into this, i'm inspired. Maybe some person can come along and move me on but I'm stuck on Eminem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lexLAjh8fPA
next, i think janfromthebruce nailed it that writer has a steadfastness that i admire. Thank you. thank you romeo for hanging in. I may have ad-libbed recently that i had an NDP membership but I sincerely do today thanks to the link from writer and someone else.
You dudettes should pub that some MORE!
With all the sports vignettes being bandied about, I feel I'm with a real good team in for the Super Bowl not just the CFL East.
When you get into 'toughness of manner for dealing with Harper' .... consider the fact that if you actually watch Harper, his manner is not attack dog. It is his message that is mean and nasty, not the way he delivers it.
I think the main answer is the one that has been said: fighting fire with fire is not required or neccesarily wise. But as a kicker- Harper himself does not have the manner people are saying is required for dealing with him.
meh, unionist you don't sound too convinced. Neither am i. where is the platform? Are you satisfid with his glasses and t-shirt look?
romeo has a long way to go, as do i and my keyboard. fuck.
Hey writer, can you give us the link to donate to Romeo?
seriuosly theres aporb with my kb.
love ya's
When you get into 'toughness of manner for dealing with Harper' .... consider the fact that if you actually watch Harper, his manner is not attack dog. It is his message that is mean and nasty, not the way he delivers it.
I think the main answer is the one that has been said: fighting fire with fire is not required or neccesarily wise. But as a kicker- Harper himself does not have the manner people are saying is required for dealing with him.
fire must be met with fire. we will find a new way to put out the flames.
When you get into 'toughness of manner for dealing with Harper' .... consider the fact that if you actually watch Harper, his manner is not attack dog. It is his message that is mean and nasty, not the way he delivers it.
I think the main answer is the one that has been said: fighting fire with fire is not required or neccesarily wise. But as a kicker- Harper himself does not have the manner people are saying is required for dealing with him.
Trust me, some gentle events and Harper will explode, like the episodes of his...
If there's something I learned about bullies growing up, it's that the worst way to let them win is to give them the reaction they were hoping for. Dion and Ignatieff played directly into Harper's hands.
For interested Babblers in Toronto (Facebook links):
A First Nations House Lunch & Learn
Please come to share a nice hot meal and join a talk about finding common ground and solidarity between the things that are used to divide us:
- rural needs and the urban concerns
... - the people in the east and people out west
- natives and non-natives
- Quebec and the rest of Canada
- national interests and international responsibilities
- men and women
- unionized and non-unionized workers
- the realities of being a temporary worker, a refugee, an immigrant, a first-generation Canadian, here for several generations, a member of a First Nation, an Inuk, Métis
Together, we are stronger. So how do we come closer together?
Wheelchair accessible.
~
Romeo Saganash is the first Indigenous person to seek the leadership of a major federal political party – and perhaps our next Prime Minister.
He was raised in the small northern community of Waswanipi, Quebec, is a residential school survivor, and graduated from the Université du Québec à Montréal law school.
A lifelong environmentalist, Romeo served as vice-chair of the Cree Regional Authority and Chair of the James Bay Advisory Committee on the Environment. His work in the economic sector with Creeco Inc. and the Eeyou Co. showed his understanding of how to balance our duty as stewards of the land with sustainable economic growth.
In politics for nearly 30 years, Romeo founded the Cree Nation Youth Council in 1985, served as Deputy Grand Chief of the Grand Council of the Cree, and is now a Member of Parliament, representing a riding that covers the northern half of Quebec.
ATTAWAPISKAT BENEFIT CONCERT
DEREK MILLER
Janet Panic/Jace Martin/Phantom Black/The Pappy Johns Band/
Jesus Murphy-Jasper/The Clearing/PLEX/Arthur Renwick and Special Guests!
...
Thursday, January 19, 2012
The Revival Bar 783 College Street, Toronto
$20 Advance Tickets go to http://everybodybuys.com/toronto/deal/bene fit
$25 @ the Door
Doors Open @ 8PM
Proceeds go to TRUE NORTH AID (www.truenorthaid.ca) Make all cheques payable to True North Aid. They will be on-site in Toronto and Ottawa.
106.5 FM The Voices Toronto/Gunner Recording/Iguana Recording/
Publicist: Stephan LaCasse t: 416-312-6955 or stephanlacasse@live.com
Contact: Rich Hunter, President Gunner Recording 647-973-6577 or rich@gunnerrecordings.com www.gunnerrecordings.com
We will also present a second Attawapiskat Benefit Concert January 24 in Ottawa. Details to be published shortly with Proceeds going to True North Aid, which is a hands on charity that will help us provide Winter Relief to our friends up in Attawapiskat for the people who really need it...See you all there...Meegwetch....Rich
With French you talk more at the front of you mouth and with English at the back of your mouth. Saganash also coughed more in English.
Still so much time for him to make his mark. I think his address is perfect. And I don't understand french at all. Many people tell me they like a calm presentation. In fact, he kind of reminds me of Harper but not in that creepy, shower myself, kinda way. Comes across so smooth in a lot of ways. A little bit to work on but I remember Harper with his deer in the headlights and now his hugging kitten persona.
I'd really like to see more policy. And that's what I'd prefer to discuss.
RevolutionPlease, you won't see a lot in terms of policy, because Romeo is a firm believer that it comes from the people, not from back rooms. A platform will be coming out soon. A statement about the Middle East was released on Friday. Another statement will be coming early in the week.
In the meantime, I want to address the matter of his low donations to date.
My sense is that there are a lot of New Democrats who like the idea that it's the first to have an Aboriginal person running for the leadership of a federal party in Canada. The first ever. In the history of this country.
The thing with a first: It never happens again. And what will also go down in history? How much support and encouragement that hugely qualified very first Aboriginal person to run for a federal party had. The NDP will be remembered for that, too.
I hope some seriously reflect on that, given the standing of the financial support he's received so far.
There are some very good machines in politics. I think of Romeo's campaign as one that presents us with a forest. I'd rather be in a forest than in a machine.
https://secure.ndp.ca/leadership/index.php?candidate=LDR12_SAGANASHR&language=e
Just received an appeal from Saganash to help with his flying expenses ("You may think I have some good qualities, but unfortunately I don't have wings. Reaching communities across Canada costs money.") I'd contribute, but after paying my monthly bills, there's just nothing left. Such is the life of living on disability.
Understood, Boom Boom.
I'm voting for the guy, and I encourage others to do so, too.
From TEAM ROMEO: Hear Romeo on CBC's C'est La Vie. He explains why "To be born Aboriginal is to be born into politics." If you're not near a radio, you can listen to the episode here:
February 5th and February 7th - Romeo Saganash
excerpt:
This week, we speak with Quebec MP Romeo Saganash, who's running for the NDP leadership.
You may know he's spent many years actively involved in landmark negotiations between the James Bay Cree and the Quebec government.
You may not know that he's also a poet, a photographer, and a marathon runner.
We'll hear more about those hidden talents, as well as other stories that Romeo Saganash rarely tells.
Meh, I've still got your back Romeo. Keep working out, we need you. I'm very sorry to "hear" the "travails tu passe". ;)
I'm voting for the guy, and I encourage others to do so, too.
Yeah he's the one candidate I also wanted to meet. Imagine a Cree Prime Minister - someone who has seen the world through the eyes of the 1st peoples of the country - he could be the kind of guy who could right a lot of wrongs.
I am not voting until the convention. I will vote for whoever I think can stop Harper with a majority and do the job. I spoke to a friend in the Saganash camp tonight and am hoping to hear him talk tomorrow.
Will they announce Saganash's vote totals during the convention balloting?
I hope they do. I voted for him, to signal that I still support him over everyone else. I can't see what it would harm, unless he wins the 1st vote ;)
It would be hysterically funny if, after withdrawing, Saganash won the leadership anyway. Imagine the looks on the faces of the other candidates(especially Mulcair!).
I mailed in my ballot for the original March 12 deadline and my #1 vote was for Saganash.
I had the pleasure of meeting him in January when he came to Toronto, I spoke with him after his talk and I just liked him as a person, and for what he could have (and still can) bring to the NDP and to Canada. A remarkable man. Head and shoulders above the rest.
I won't be at the convention, mostly because of the exorbitant fee. Yikes. But my heart simply isn't in it anymore. I voted, reluctantly and rather dismally, and now I just want it to be done so we can get to the task at hand which is being the opposition, planning for 2015 and showing Canada what a fucking rat Harper is.
SO...who else is running?
I was pleased to see Saganash on stage, and displeased with Mulcair failing to mention him and Chisholm.
That is unfortunate, Unionist. Some people are more naturally inclined to be considerate and think of what others might dismiss as small gestures.
Did they announce Saganash's first-preference votes? or just act like the weren't even cast?
The latter, it looks like.
Bummer, I was curious :/
perhaps he got more votes than one or more of the active candidates, and they didn't want to embarass whoever he might have outpolled.
CFL