Edmonton suspect member of Freeman group.

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6079_Smith_W
Edmonton suspect member of Freeman group.

I was wondering what the story was behind that fellow who killed that cop in Edmonton, since the officer was on the hate crimes unit.

Funny that by virtue of his being a white guy it took a couple of days for anyone to even notice his  membership in what the FBI considers a terrorist organization. Had he been non-white any connection would have been seized on immediately, and if there wasn't one it would have been speculated about.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/edmonton/Police+shooter+espoused+ext...

Quote:

On his Facebook page, police killer Norman Walter Raddatz posted about bylaw tickets he considered “constant harassment” by “taxation pirates,” railed against the courts and government, called homosexuals “sodomites,” and police “pigs.”

He maintained that the capitalized spelling of a person’s name on government and bank documents was part of a pervasive corporate conspiracy.

Slumberjack

Well, aside from the fact that nobody gets everything right even by applying the best mental faculties to social issues, obviously they were dealing with an extremely confused and fragmented individual.

voice of the damned

Well, it might have taken the Journal a few days to flesh out the details, but the Freeman connection was mentioned by a Sun reporter on twitter a couple of hours after the story broke.

http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=37391

Post #7 on that thread.

voice of the damned

Slumberjack wrote:

Well, aside from the fact that nobody gets everything right even by applying the best mental faculties to social issues, obviously they were dealing with an extremely confused and fragmented individual.

Paula Simons...

"It’s hard to judge whether Raddatz considered himself a Freeman or whether he was just parroting Freemen rhetoric. Like the younger losers who drift toward extremist groups such ISIS, Raddatz may have been less a full-fledged ideologue than an angry outsider. But so are most Freemen. It’s not so much a group, as a loose affiliation of loners and malcontents, looking for a cause to rationalize their failure and legitimize their fury. The Internet provides them a ready-made vocabulary for their grievances."

Google: "Simons: Police constable fought to protect Edmonton from hate. Sadly, hate killed him"

6079_Smith_W

Didn't see that one VOTD, thanks. That being the case, I am surprised other media went days without mentioning what was probably a major reason for the crime. Did it make it into a news story?

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Didn't see that one VOTD, thanks. That being the case, I am surprised other media went days without mentioning what was probably a major reason for the crime.

Yeah, could be greater caution about jumping the gun(in comparison to when the killer seems likely to be Muslim), or maybe the bar is higher for something being reported in an article than posted on twitter. The original tweet didn't really provide much evidence, beyond "sources within EPS confirmed" and "thought to be associated w/ Freeman On The Land."

Hurtin Albertan

Hindsight is 20/20 and so on and so forth, but I have to wonder, with all the warning signs this fellow was showing, why didn't the EPS use the Emergency Response Team or-whatever-they-call-them to deal with the situation?

Based on the bullet hole pictures from the connect2edmonton forums, I'm also guessing he was using multiple firearms.  The 6 biggest holes might be from shotgun slugs, looks like there might be 9 or 10 medium sized holes from a centrefire rifle, hard to tell from the picture but it looks to me like there were also a lot of smaller bullet holes too, maybe from a .22 or a smaller caliber rifle.  One poster on those forums was speculating as to what kind of firearm was used to shoot so many times in the 10-15 seconds or whatever the details were, I'm thinking he switched guns rather than reloading.

Anyways I am also thinking there was probably no way this guy was going to ever surrender peacefully even if the EPS backed off and called in the ERT to contain the situation.  A single well placed shot from a police sniper might have been the best way to end this.

6079_Smith_W

To call it a loose affiliation of loners is a denial that it is a fairly organized (if completely bogus and conspiracist) philosophy.

And it also fles in the face of the numerous murders, attacks and other crimes that have been committed by members.

And it is the only loose affiliation of loners I know of that hands out its own sherriff badges.

(edit)

Yeah, or a higher bar when it comes to white people. And as I said, in the firstr report they mentioned the killed officer was in the hate crimes unit. That would seem to imply something more than the harrassment they were talking about, but the news stories did not give details.

 

 

 

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:

To call it a loose affiliation of loners is a denial that it is a fairly organized (if completely bogus and conspiracist) philosophy.

And it also fles in the face of the numerous murders, attacks and other crimes that have been committed by members.

And it is the only loose affiliation of loners I know of that hands out its own sherriff badges.

Well, the phrase "loose affiliation" is, iteslf, pretty loose in terms of its possible meanings. For myself, I think you could call the group a "loose affiliation", in the sense that their members, or at least the ones like the guy in Edmonton, aren't acting on orders from a centralized authority.

Though the justifying "legal" theory seems very much to emanate from a central source. Raddatz's ranting about "admirality courts" and whatnot was pure Freeman, though his anti-semitic and white-supremacist ramblings could have come from a variety of sources.

6079_Smith_W

Sure, though none of that is reason to not mention it, especially since there was an incident involving a member of that group in Calgary not too long ago, which led to the Alberta Law Society issuing a policy about their pseudolegal tactics.

I am just wondering why, given that the police confirmed he was associated with them, and that it is a relevant part of his legal troubles, that it didn't make it into one of the initial news stories.

Slumberjack

Quote:
"It’s not so much a group, as a loose affiliation of loners and malcontents, looking for a cause to rationalize their failure and legitimize their fury. The Internet provides them a ready-made vocabulary for their grievances."

Not that there's anything wrong with coming down with a sense of alienation from this society, particularly when any thought is given toward the ‘what and for whom’ our society’s leaders represent, or with being a malcontent where these circumstances are concerned.  Many terms in fact have been coined and applied to such individuals who get themselves into a state like that, such as blooms, nihilists, misanthropes, etc.  I suspect most regular people invest themselves in theories, political gestures and activities, even personal hobbies where political activities hold no anaesthetizing power over an individual, in order to avoid being irrevocably captured by the alienation that this society produces.  The ‘lucky’ ones are brought out almost all of the time from falling completely into that abyss through a combination of social interaction and distraction.  People like this fellow don’t always have that available and so we get to see them in the news occasionally.  And there always seems to be a name for them, even if it isn't readily apparent what that might be, because to leave things unnamed risks a more detailed public examination of the causes until a suitable name is found, and everything gets squared away accordingly.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Funny that by virtue of his being a white guy it took a couple of days for anyone to even notice his  membership in what the FBI considers a terrorist organization. Had he been non-white any connection would have been seized on immediately, and if there wasn't one it would have been speculated about.

Was he wearing a "Freemen-on-the-Land" shirt that everyone tacitly ignored?  Did he shout "Glory to the Freemen!"?  Or what was everyone supposed to notice?

Quote:
I am just wondering why, given that the police confirmed he was associated with them

From your linked article:

Quote:
Police have said there were no indications Raddatz was part of the Freemen-on-the-Land movement, an affiliation of extremists considered by the FBI to be a domestic terrorist movement and a serious threat to law enforcement.

6079_Smith_W

The tweet VOTD linked to above has a reporter saying he was thought to be a member. The Sun on Wednesday published a similar statement:

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/06/08/cop-reportedly-shot-in-west-edmonton

But again, a more important indicator is him using exactly the same tactics as the group in stuff like challening parking tickets. As was pointed out upthread, they are a loose organization. I'd suspect the cops were being cautious.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/police-shooter-espoused-extremi...

Quote:

But posts on Raddatz’s page clearly espouse views that reflect the Freemen movement and the broader sovereign citizen ideology in which people believe they are exempt from the law unless they consent to be governed by it.

(edit)

And according to the globe, Raddatz's girlfriend told his neighbour that he got involved with the Freemen before he "went off the deep end".

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/alberta/suspect-in-edmonton-police-s...

 

 

 

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

This is starting to remind me of the Craig Hicks case, and the people who wanted so very badly to believe that it was a hate crime, regardless of any facts.

So he challenged his parking tickets, which proves that he was a card-carrying Freeman, which in turn proves that our media is biased when reporting on white terrorists like him.  That's just such thin soup.

6079_Smith_W

Except that Craig Hicks isn't a smoking cinder, sonething that in this case makes the notion of him getting framed kind of moot.

And the most relevant way in which it is exactly the opposite is that in Hicks's case his partner insisted there wasn't a religious motive. In this case the partner said he was involved with the Freemen. And while there are some who do have cards and badges, I suspect, as with all terrorist organizations, they don't all necessarily have one in their wallet.

As for bias against poor white terrorists, it kind of gets to why I started this thread in the first place - that the media didn't say much about the Freemen connection at all for the first few days. CBC still hasn't as of this morning.

Had he been from another culture I suspect it would have been a different story, even if there was no evidence at all.

 

Paladin1

I wonder if the mayor of edmonton is still taking heat over his long gun registry comments.

Quote:
On his Facebook page, police killer Norman Walter Raddatz posted about bylaw tickets he considered “constant harassment” by “taxation pirates,” railed against the courts and government, called homosexuals “sodomites,” and police “pigs.”

Hey just like we do Laughing

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
And the most relevant way in which it is exactly the opposite is that in Hicks's case his partner insisted there wasn't a religious motive.

Yes, I remember what a game-changer that was.

Quote:
And while there are some who do have cards and badges, I suspect, as with all terrorist organizations, they don't all necessarily have one in their wallet.

I suspect that while that's true, it's mostly true because most terrorist organizations don't identify themselves with cards or badges.

But if an organization does identify itself with cards, badges, or both, is it unreasonable to not just assume someone with neither is also a member in good standing because they agree on some things?  Or were they just out of cards AND badges on the day they pledged?

voice of the damned

Mr. Magoo wrote:

This is starting to remind me of the Craig Hicks case, and the people who wanted so very badly to believe that it was a hate crime, regardless of any facts.

So he challenged his parking tickets, which proves that he was a card-carrying Freeman, which in turn proves that our media is biased when reporting on white terrorists like him.  That's just such thin soup.

Well, the language he used in his posts(eg. "Admiralty courts") was pure Freeman rhetoric. I suspect the Edmonton police, who are likely quite familiar with that rhetoric, noticed it, and passed on their suspicions to the Sun reporter, who tweeted it. Why the rest of the media didn't run with that ball right away is, of course, the topic of discussion here. I'm at work, no time for any more.

 

voice of the damned

From Colby Cosh...

 

"The most visible OPCA types tend to be right-wingers — fat, middle-aged, divorced male right-wingers, if we’re being honest. As Justice Rooke pointed out, this is not quite a complete picture. OPCA tactics have been used by left-anarchists who claim conscientious objections to paying taxes in a NATO member state; they have also been used by aboriginal defendants to claim immunity from the white invader’s law.

Still, one could say with some justice that the “Freemen” and the “Sovereign Citizens” are to libertarianism what the “Islamic State” is to Islam. The ordinary libertarian despises the state, even thinks it a wicked conspiracy, but he knows that its authority is ultimately grounded in firepower. There is no magic verbal formula he can utter to the police that will allow him to drive around with license plates from the Republic of Me, Myself and I."

 

voice of the damned
voice of the damned

One thing that the Cosh piece reiterates is that FOTL doesn't seem to have any centrally-directed organizational goals, comparable to(say) getting the British out of Ireland, establishing a caliphate, or stopping women from having abortions. Rather, they purport to give legal-advice to people, in pursuit of each individual's self-driven goals. And the goals of the various Freemen are sometimes incongruus with one another, eg. the white supremacist in Edmonton probably wouldn't have a lot in common with the wayward First Nations activists claiming "soverreign" status.

voice of the damned

Paladin1 wrote:

I wonder if the mayor of edmonton is still taking heat over his long gun registry comments.

Quote:
On his Facebook page, police killer Norman Walter Raddatz posted about bylaw tickets he considered “constant harassment” by “taxation pirates,” railed against the courts and government, called homosexuals “sodomites,” and police “pigs.”

Hey just like we do Laughing

Another overlap...

QUOTE: he thinks Canada is becoming close to the U.S. "police state profit prison system ... in the U.S., a family looses [sic] their house to foreclosure is evicted at gun point by a swat team."

(google: Norman Raddatz Facebook page shows cop killer disliked Jews, police, government, gay people)