New Surrey Police

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Aristotleded24
New Surrey Police

City terminates RCMP contract:

Quote:
Council unanimously passed a motion immediately after it was sworn in this week to terminate its contract with RCMP and begin forming a municipal force.

The RCMP says it would be the first time a local government would move from the national force since Cape Breton, N.S., made the switch in 2000. Abbotsford, B.C., dropped the Mounties in 1995, when it amalgamated with Matsqui and formed the Abbotsford Police Department, and a small town in Prince Edward Island made the move in the early 1990s.

...

Rob Gordon, a criminology professor with Simon Fraser University, said it's a daunting and costly task. While it typically comes with the benefit of lighter caseloads for local officers, it means immediately losing a 10 per cent subsidy that the federal government offers any municipality that uses the RCMP.

"There will be a lot of eyes on Surrey to see whether or not it is cost effective to do this," Gordon said.

Mayor Doug McCallum has defended the expense, which he said voters condoned when they filled all but one council seat with members of the Safe Surrey party, which ran on making the change.

"A local police force will understand the community better and will be more motivated to tackle problems," his campaign platform said.

quizzical

a new more in touch with community force? the Surrey "enforcers"?

wonder how he knows this? 

the RCMP called down as ineffective might be really encouraged to help.

they got 2 years to create a force. probably with things worsening. then a force, who knows where they're gonna recruit, getting to know the community. 5-10 years of freedom reigning in Surrey imv.

well at least it will free up some RCMP in other underserved areas.

 

Aristotleded24

I would imagine that attempting to convince Mounties currently stationed in Surrey to trade their RCMP patches for municipal ones will be a big part of their strategy. Probably will also try to recruit officers from the surrounding municipal police forces as well, along with whatever college programs train recruits for police in the Lower Mainland.

The article mentioned that this would be the first time that a municipality has traded out an RCMP detachment for a local force. That change usually goes in the other direction. I remember a few years ago there was discussion about doing so for Brandon. One of the arguments for was cost, which I found ridiculous because I'm sure that RCMP officers are paid more than Brandon police officers. Plus this new RCMP detachment would have been responsible for policing inside and outside of Brandon, possibly affecting response times within the city.

Personally, I'm a proponent of front-line policing being done by local and provincial agencies, simply because that structure allows more direct community control over what the police do. I would be happy with the RCMP moving out of local policing altogether, and then focus on large-scale crime like organized crime, human trafficking, cyber crime, telemarketing fraud, and child pornography.

jerrym

Aristotleded24 wrote:

I would imagine that attempting to convince Mounties currently stationed in Surrey to trade their RCMP patches for municipal ones will be a big part of their strategy. ...

I'm sure that RCMP officers are paid more than Brandon police officers.

 

I don't know what the pay difference in Brandon but in Calgary, Edmonton and metro Vancouver police forces the pay difference is enormous and is already causing RCMP officers to switch forces. 

Heavy caseloads, a toxic workplace culture, officer safety and low pay are among the reasons Mounties are choosing to leave the RCMP for new careers at other Canadian police forces. 

That's according to Mounties who recently left or are preparing to leave Canada's national police force and who spoke to CBC News. ...

Yet on average, Mounties at the rank of first-class constable make $20,000 less than colleagues at Calgary, Edmonton or Vancouver police forces.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-mounties-leaving-jobs-police-1.403...

 

quizzical

huh. tks Jerry. would've thought it was the opposite.

it's a big difference.

 

Aristotleded24

Mark April 2021 on your calendars:

Quote:

The City of Surrey is proposing an April 1, 2021 start date for an independent police force. 

The city made the announcement in the release of its long-anticipated transition plan detailing what a new policing model for the municipality would look like.

The report says a force would cost $192.5 million in 2021 — a 10.9 per cent increase over the projected costs of keeping the RCMP — and would have 805 police officers and 20 "Community Safety Personnel". 

Currently, Surrey RCMP have an authorized strength of 843 police officers. The city says there are 51 vacancies — but the RCMP says all of those jobs are being backfilled with staff provided by the RCMP.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Was watching this on the CBC out of Vancouver(we get that on the cable system where I now live).  It sounds like Surrey is going to have to pay more for having their own police than they did leaving it to the RCMP, and have fewer officers.  Doesn't exactly SOUND like the municipality is coming out ahead on this one.

Aristotleded24

Ken Burch wrote:
Was watching this on the CBC out of Vancouver(we get that on the cable system where I now live).  It sounds like Surrey is going to have to pay more for having their own police than they did leaving it to the RCMP, and have fewer officers.  Doesn't exactly SOUND like the municipality is coming out ahead on this one.

Maybe, but there are other factors as well. The agency could be led by police officers who stick around the community for a long time and know it very well. Perhaps even with fewer officers a Surrey police agency might be able to deploy them more effectively and efficiently than the RCMP can.

The other thing I haven't heard any mention of is funding from higher levels of government. Will Surrey be funding the police agency on its own? The Manitoba government has funded extra positions for police agencies in Winnipeg and Brandon. Some cash from Victoria might be able to help out?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

Was watching this on the CBC out of Vancouver(we get that on the cable system where I now live).  It sounds like Surrey is going to have to pay more for having their own police than they did leaving it to the RCMP, and have fewer officers.  Doesn't exactly SOUND like the municipality is coming out ahead on this one.

Paying more to get local control is worth the price. The RCMP are not a good local police force partially because they tend to act like the Catholic church and transfer their problem officers rather than deal with them.

 

Aristotleded24

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Ken Burch wrote:

Was watching this on the CBC out of Vancouver(we get that on the cable system where I now live).  It sounds like Surrey is going to have to pay more for having their own police than they did leaving it to the RCMP, and have fewer officers.  Doesn't exactly SOUND like the municipality is coming out ahead on this one.

Paying more to get local control is worth the price. The RCMP are not a good local police force partially because they tend to act like the Catholic church and transfer their problem officers rather than deal with them.

To be fair, are municipal police agencies notably better on this front?

The flip side to that is you might have a local agency that is beholden to some local power structure whereas the higher-ups would have the authority to come in and do something. I see the point you're making, but sometimes "local control" can be a double-edged sword, especially in the smaller communities.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Ken Burch wrote:

Was watching this on the CBC out of Vancouver(we get that on the cable system where I now live).  It sounds like Surrey is going to have to pay more for having their own police than they did leaving it to the RCMP, and have fewer officers.  Doesn't exactly SOUND like the municipality is coming out ahead on this one.

Paying more to get local control is worth the price. The RCMP are not a good local police force partially because they tend to act like the Catholic church and transfer their problem officers rather than deal with them.

To be fair, are municipal police agencies notably better on this front?

Some are and some are not. I think it depends on who they hire to lead the force to ensure the forces' culture from its inception is good. In BC we have may incidents of bad RCMP experiences and insensitive policing decisions made by people transferred in without proper training about the community they are supposed to be keeping safe.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

In the meantime the RCMP got window dressing.

Just days after the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls released its final report, the federal government announced an interim civilian advisory board to oversee the RCMP.

But Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale didn’t appoint any Indigenous women to the 13-member watchdog panel announced June 5, even though the inquiry called for major reform of the national force two days earlier.

The board does include one Indigenous man – John Domm, the former chief of police of the Nishnawbe-Aski and Rama police services.

https://aptnnews.ca/2019/06/10/its-a-farce-no-indigenous-women-named-to-...

Paladin1

RCMP are a para-military organization. Not the best option when you want a hearts and minds approach to policing.

Doing a bit of reading I don't blame small communities for wanting to turf the RCMP. Even guys and girls I know who are RCMP officers (and good people IMO) say they need to change a lot from the inside and especially at DEPO.

Going to community police is going to be way more expensive, you can't move from an established well funded org like the RCMP and expect to save money starting from scratch esentially. But maybe getting kicked out of these towns and communities is the slap in the face the RCMP needs to improve themselves.

 

On the flip side though, as mentioned, "local" police, especially in more remote locations without much oversight face their own problems. Corruption, nepotism, favoritism and so on.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Ken Burch wrote:

Was watching this on the CBC out of Vancouver(we get that on the cable system where I now live).  It sounds like Surrey is going to have to pay more for having their own police than they did leaving it to the RCMP, and have fewer officers.  Doesn't exactly SOUND like the municipality is coming out ahead on this one.

Paying more to get local control is worth the price. The RCMP are not a good local police force partially because they tend to act like the Catholic church and transfer their problem officers rather than deal with them.

To be fair, are municipal police agencies notably better on this front?

Some are and some are not. I think it depends on who they hire to lead the force to ensure the forces' culture from its inception is good. In BC we have may incidents of bad RCMP experiences and insensitive policing decisions made by people transferred in without proper training about the community they are supposed to be keeping safe.

Thanks.  You all just taught me a lot of things I didn't know about this issue.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:
Personally, I'm a proponent of front-line policing being done by local and provincial agencies, simply because that structure allows more direct community control over what the police do. I would be happy with the RCMP moving out of local policing altogether, and then focus on large-scale crime like organized crime, human trafficking, cyber crime, telemarketing fraud, and child pornography.

I'm generally a proponent of local and provincial policing as well, in order to completely separate local and national policing duties. So that the RCMP are not directing local police officers on issues such as response to direct action against the Trans-Mountain Pipeline expansion, to use but one example.

Having said that, before we get the RCMP out of local policing we would need the provinces (Ontraio excepted) to agree to create provincial police forces to police those areas that are not possible to police with municipal police forces. It would be chaos to get rid of the RCMP if the provinces were to decide to leave everything up to local police forces. [Note: I would not trust small-c conservative provincial governments not to go the leave everything to local police forces route].

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Was watching this on the CBC out of Vancouver(we get that on the cable system where I now live).  It sounds like Surrey is going to have to pay more for having their own police than they did leaving it to the RCMP, and have fewer officers.  Doesn't exactly SOUND like the municipality is coming out ahead on this one.

Paying more to get local control is worth the price. The RCMP are not a good local police force partially because they tend to act like the Catholic church and transfer their problem officers rather than deal with them.

 

Also I think the RCMP would be less likely to overrule an independent municipal police force than they would be one of their local detachments. Again, I bring up direct action against the Trans-Mountain Pipeline expansion as an example. During the 2014 protests against Kinder-Morgan's drilling on Burnaby Mountain, the Burnaby RCMP ordered it's officers not to arrest the protesters, so RCMP from outside Burnaby were brought in to do Kinder Morgan's dirty work.

Pogo Pogo's picture

I think the RCMP should serve a role similiar to the FBI handling cross border issues and such.  I am not as big a supporter of municipal police forces as I am for regional forces.  The focus in Surrey of putting boots on the ground is going to lead to inevitable disasters (nobody checked the alert and bad things happened).

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pogo wrote:

I think the RCMP should serve a role similiar to the FBI handling cross border issues and such.  I am not as big a supporter of municipal police forces as I am for regional forces.  The focus in Surrey of putting boots on the ground is going to lead to inevitable disasters (nobody checked the alert and bad things happened).

Metro Vancouver already has a mix of RCMP and municipal forces. Surrey will still be part of the regional structures already in place. Port Moody, West Van, Vancouver, New Westminster and Delta all have municipal forces. I believe they are all involved in the  Organized Crime Agency of BC (OCABC).

Pogo Pogo's picture

Yes and there are numerous instances of communication gaps.  Wasn't there a big communication failure in the Picton case?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

POGO is your town RCMP policed? The Picton case was two decades ago and the RCMP dropped the ball on numerous occasions in that sad case. The RCMP can be counted on to defend us against armed stapler wielders.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Richmond is RCMP and does a poor job.  It did a poor job when I was growing up in Chemainus.  I am not arguing for RCMP.  I would prefer a regional police force.  I only used Picton as it was one I remembered, but I believe the interdepartmental communication is a problem.  Particularly with Surrey I see the issue with reduction of administrative support (the inverse of more boots on the ground).

Aristotleded24

Looks like Surrey's not alone:

Quote:

A Liberal government in Manitoba would create a new provincial police force to put more officers in understaffed rural and remote areas, leader Dougald Lamont promises.

"There are too many gaps in policing in Manitoba due to years of budget cuts and it's time to invest in a solution that will work provincewide," Lamont said at a news conference Thursday, the day after Premier Brian Pallister announced Manitobans will go to the polls on Sept. 10.

Currently, the provincial government contracts out police services in many rural communities to the RCMP, at a cost of $151 million. Lamont estimates the cost of a new provincial police force would be about the same.

The new Manitoba Police Service would take over policing in those communities, while also complementing existing federal RCMP operations and municipal and First Nations police services, the Liberal leader said.

One argument in favour of keeping the RCMP has to do with the rights of Francophone communities to receive services in their own langauge, which is a problem for some areas. Since the RCMP is a federal government agency, these communities are entitled to French service from the RCMP. What happens if these agencies all go provincial? Francophone communities in Manitoba and New Brunswick would still be protected because their rights are enshrined into provincial law. What about francophone communities in Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and Labrador, Alberta, and Saskatchewan?

Either way, I fully agree with Lamont's proposal.