Salish Sea

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NorthReport
Salish Sea
Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

It seems like this is an issue on the West coast, and I don't even specifically disagree with it being an issue, but I don't hear about the same concerns on the East coast.  I typically buy farmed Atlantic salmon when I buy salmon -- it's fattier and cheaper, which is a double win -- but how do Atlantic farmers do things differently from Pacific farmers?  This is a real question; I just don't get why the problem wouldn't be basically the same on both sides.

NDPP

The flavour of wild Pacific salmon is far superior to farmed Atlantic fish. Not to mention the toxicity of all the chemicals and antibiotics in the latter. And that's before you even get to the deleterious impact of these disease-ridden aliens upon the ecosystem and wild stocks.

Speaking of which, I particularly liked what Chef Tojo had to say:

"HidekazuTojo of Tojo's recalled that he has been serving wild salmon for many years to local and international customers. 'We need to do what we can to make sure that wild pacific salmon sticks   can thrive for generations,' Tojo said."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Okay.  But I wasn't asking which salmon is clearly superior.  I was just curious why it seems like farmed Pacific salmon is an environmental issue and farmed Atlantic salmon not so much.

Their better flavour, IYHO, doesn't really address that.

WWWTT

It seems to me that people in BC are more concerned with environmental impact. In Ontario there is also salmon that grow up in the Great Lakes and spawn in the tributary rivers (credit, brontes creek etc etc). But many people won’t eat the spawning salmon when sport fishing for them. About half the people fishing for them think these fish are filled with so many toxins that you will die if you eat one. I personally would eat a fresh one if I caught it in one of the Great Lakes but not a spawning salmon in a river. 

 

NDPP

Most of the salmon farm-raised in BC are Atlantic salmon. 'Settler-salmon' as a Kwagulth friend used to call them. Nasty things. Here's more...

http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/salmon-farming-problems/frequently-ask...

http://www.asf.ca/open-pen-fish-farming-a-mess.html

LB Cultured Thought

Mr. Magoo wrote:

It seems like this is an issue on the West coast, and I don't even specifically disagree with it being an issue, but I don't hear about the same concerns on the East coast.  I typically buy farmed Atlantic salmon when I buy salmon -- it's fattier and cheaper, which is a double win -- but how do Atlantic farmers do things differently from Pacific farmers?  This is a real question; I just don't get why the problem wouldn't be basically the same on both sides.

Good question. The same parasite problems are present globally in all of the main salmon fisheries, including the East coast. I expect you only hear about it in BC because there aren't commercial wild salmon fisheries anywhere else, so potential transmission of parasites isn't a large concern.

mmphosis

Mr. Magoo wrote:

It seems like this is an issue on the West coast, and I don't even specifically disagree with it being an issue, but I don't hear about the same concerns on the East coast.  I typically buy farmed Atlantic salmon when I buy salmon -- it's fattier and cheaper, which is a double win -- but how do Atlantic farmers do things differently from Pacific farmers?  This is a real question; I just don't get why the problem wouldn't be basically the same on both sides.

Fish farms are not a problem if you don't have them.  Maybe I am not sure what you are asking?

Are there any fish farms on the East coast of Canada?  I didn't know that there were any fish farms of the toxic type on the East coast that are on the BC coast.  Are they in industrial cages in the ocean?  Are there dozens of them in a UNESCO Biosphere?  Are there invasive species from other areas of the world being introduced into East coast fish farms?  I have heard of other types of marine farming on the east coast, but it is a delicate balance.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/washington-state-c...

The industrial pens of Atlantic salmon forced upon the west coast are toxic.  It's another terrible idea forced by mandate.  Amongst the many environmental time bombs, this one wouldn't be too difficult to shutdown and mitigate.  And, I am not totally against the idea of marine farming.  I think there must be a better way.  The oceans need help.  Healthy ocean environments would potentially mean healthier fish and possibly more fish where stocks have been declining.

NDPP

omitted 

NorthReport

Just like the Kinder Morgan pipeline, fish farms on the West Coast of B.C. are very controversial. It involves First Nations, it involves the Environment, and it involves Health to mention a few minor issues. And the opposition to these fish farms will never ever go away. If they are going to have fish farms at all out here, they need to be brought onto the land base, to stop fucking up our West Coast salmon. There has been a massive fish habitat restoratative program going on in BC. It seems almost every community that borders on the ocean has been involved for decades now. This is just another appalling abuse of our common waterways for the sake of Norwegian business profits.

Chefs ask B.C. NDP government to protect wild salmon by stopping open-net aquaculture

https://www.straight.com/news/1054031/chefs-ask-bc-ndp-government-protect-wild-salmon-stopping-open-net-aquaculture

NorthReport

Diarrhea is a rising cause of death in North America.

The reason: overuse of anti-biotics, which lows the immune system's response to things like C.deficile.

Martin N.

https://www.saobserver.net/news/b-c-animal-lab-cleared-of-conflicts-over...

Above is a link to some info on the issue. As usual, it's polarised and the antis do not consider logic of any use when they have a surplus of emotion to feed their righteousness. From personal observation, people are either rigidly anti-farmed salmon or semi-lukewarm to the idea of open net farming. Most farms are foreign (Norwegian) owned, providing modest job and business opportunity.

The lack of science specific to wild salmon returns allows for a full spectrum of angst directed at farm fish including mutations, disease, loss of habitat etc, etc. Wild salmon are revered in BC and an informed opinion is not required to oppose farmed fish.

Personally, I mildly oppose farmed salmon from an environmental pov and mildly support it from a healthy food source pov with the caveat that the feed these fish are given is safe. A much larger concern is the the federal government does little to support wild salmon other than the usual talking points.

A much larger concern that no one seems to take to heart like farmed salmon is recent studies pointing out increased levels of microscopic plastics found in marine life, especially bivalves like oysters. Again, no help from the Feds.

NorthReport

I wonder what the connections are between Dept of Oceans and Fisheries and these Norwegian fish farms It appears we need to do some investigative research here!

Martin N.

I'm more concerned with foreign ownership of commercial fishing licenses 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Are there any fish farms on the East coast of Canada?  I didn't know that there were any fish farms of the toxic type on the East coast that are on the BC coast.  Are they in industrial cages in the ocean?

Seems there are, but I don't know how they compare to West coast farms in terms of numbers (or "toxicity").  In terms of whatever farms there are harming or not harming wild stocks, it could be a matter of using closed pens (I don't know, though) or it could just be that the wild stocks are so depleted that there aren't a lot of wild salmon to infect with anything.

Sidebar:  when I was a kid, my parents and I would sometimes visit a fish farm -- Rainbow Acres Trout Farm -- to do some guaranteed-successful fishin'.  It was in (IIRC) Arkona, ON, so it was totally landlocked, and essentially consisted of some metal sheds where the fry lived in big shallow tanks, graduating from one tank to the next as they grew, and then two or three big aerated man-made ponds, where the mature trout lived (and where you could fish for them).

You were free to catch as many as you liked, and paid by the inch.  I seem to remember that a 16" trout would cost you about $2.20, but remember we're talking mid-Seventies.

Anyway, I wonder why an enterprise like that wouldn't be at least as popular as chinchilla farming?  You don't need tons of land, it needn't be arable, and this place let you fish for your own dinner, it could just as easily have harvested the fish for regular commerical sale.  No chance of these fish ever interacting with wild ones, either.

NorthReport

Where do you think the food in the Supermarket comes from these days, eh!

http://www.acoa-apeca.gc.ca/eng/publications/FactSheetsAndBrochures/Page...

NorthReport

I wonder how much they donated to the LPC, eh!

Washington's net-pen fish farm ban has Canadian consequences

 

The bill was passed in response to an incident last summer when high winds collapsed the pens of a fish farm owned by Cooke Aquaculture Pacific.

The incident let up to 263,000 Atlantic salmon loose into the Pacific Ocean, raising concerns the invasive fish could harm native Pacific salmon runs.

Canada’s eastern waters have seen similar escapes, said Crabbe, which can have a devastating impact when the farmed fish breed with wild Atlantic salmon to create “hybrids” that are less capable of survival.

“Wherever the open net-pen industry is established on the east coast of North America, the wild salmon populations have plummeted,” he said.

http://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/washingtons-net-pen-f...

NorthReport

Canadians are so dumb and unfortunately our stupidity has international consequences.

State kills Atlantic salmon farming in Washington

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/bill-to-phase-out-atl...

Pogo Pogo's picture

The big problem is a foreign fish escaping into the general population.  Close seconds are the diseases and parasites that can reach epidemic levels in the closed enviroment before escaping into the general salmon population.  A related problem I have heard is the high level on anti-biotics and such used to battle diseases and parasites which creates a risk of superbugs (somebody smarter than me would have to explain why building up tolerance to antibiotics is an issue for fish in the wild).

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I wonder how much they donated to the LPC, eh!

Isn't that a matter of public record?  Why are you "wondering" instead of "showing"?

Here's the Elections Canada page where you can search for political contributions.  Catch us up.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Donations come in many forms, often through interested 3rd parties. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Do you mean "from" interested third parties?

I'm just suggesting that a motivated person need not "wonder" how much U.S. fish farmers gave to "the Liberals" if they can just show us.

mmphosis

NorthReport wrote:

Where do you think the food in the Supermarket comes from these days, eh!

http://www.acoa-apeca.gc.ca/eng/publications/FactSheetsAndBrochures/Page...

Thanks for the link NR -- the Aquaculture in Atlantic Canada "brochure/fact sheet" was informative.  There are lots of pen net Atlantic salmon farms on the East coast with the same problems and local problems such as releases of hybrid farmed Atlantic salmon breeding with wild Atlantic salmon.

I found a mapping program for New Brunswick:

http://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/departments/10/aquaculture/content/mas...

I once talked about fish farms to Canadians living on the East coast and they are VERY opposed to them.  I also once spoke with someone who seemed to be invested or an owner of West coast Atlantic salmon farms and of course he could not see any problem at all.

Pretty much all the Supermarkets and smaller markets in my area sell wild Pacific salmon.  Some of the larger (not so local) chain stores sell both wild Pacific salmon and farmed Atlantic salmon, but I don't know how well farmed salmon would actually sell in those stores.  I guess like the "heavily subsidized and externalized exported Asphalt mixed with imported Naptha gas" for worldwide markets there must be a buyer somewhere.  Who that buyer might be?  How informed are they about what they are purchasing?

NorthReport
NorthReport
Pogo Pogo's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Do you mean "from" interested third parties?

I'm just suggesting that a motivated person need not "wonder" how much U.S. fish farmers gave to "the Liberals" if they can just show us.

I want to give money but I don't want to show up on reports.  I give it personally, my immediate family gives some, anyone I can easily compensate (senior management) gives some.  One big donation becomes a bunch of small donations.

Pogo Pogo's picture

And of course the wild fish are disappearing. The ecosystem is out of balance. Anecdotally I would say there are 10 times the amount of jelly fish.  Star fish are a fraction of their old numbers. It is a mess.

Rev Pesky

From Martin N.:

A much larger concern is the the federal government does little to support wild salmon other than the usual talking points.

​That's not really true. My sister's first husband worked for the Pacfic Salmon Fishery which had a hatchery close to Cultus Lake. I was given a tour of the place. It was very interesting. It was also just a small part of a much larger program of Salmonid enhancement engaged in by the federal dept of fisheries.

The real problem with the West Coast salmon fishery is simply too many fishermen for the number of fish available. Another problem is loss of spawning grounds. There are some very strict laws around salmonid spawning streams, but to a certain extent there is nothing you can do if some drunk drives his pickup in such a stream and disrupts the spawn.

There have been very determined efforts to enlarge the number of spawning streams, but against development, and increased demand for the fish, it's difficult to do much more than run to stay in one place. 

Martin N.

True about hatcheries but then you express many of my concerns. As a former salmon habitat restoration contractor, let me rephrase my concerns: the value of the marine ecosystem to BC and the nation exponentially exceeds the price government places on its remediation.

It is entirely within the purview of the federal government to protect and enhance the marine ecosystem but they are unwilling to expend either the funding or the political capital to substantially fulfill their mandate. Tourism alone will provide the economic anchor for the cost, notwithstanding increased harvesting opportunity.

Trading anecdotes, on one stream restoration, DFO enforcement chaps showed up with the finest of high powered boats, stainless steel handguns and assorted enforcement kit but the DFO biologist had no budget to even go anywhere.

Martin N.

Further to the above comments, DFO needs to meaningfully address commercial licenses both from a sustainability issue and a reconciliation issue with coastal FN.

With increasing technology comes increasing cost. It is an ever increasing spiral of a higher income threshold, catching more fish to break even. The fish don't stand a chance against large, modern fishing platforms. Political pressure on DFO for commercial openings is relentless as is the pressure from competing commercial, guiding, sport and FN sectors.

Corporate entities have monetized a public resource by mutating commercial licenses into a rent-paying  instrument completely independent of the vessels that do the fishing under the benevolent nose of political masters too timid to challenge them.

Commercial licenses have quota attached to them and are rented out to vessel owners at a price per pound of quota. It's basically a royalty system devoid of any logical attachment to the industry of fishing and makes fishing for profit very difficult.

Government needs to take back ownership of public resources by both clawing back incentives to monetization of licenses and buying back licenses and vessels to reduce fishing pressure on the resource.

Rev Pesky

Here's an interesting document I found that discusses the various ways of managing the fishery in Canada:

QUOTA LICENSING IN CANADA'S FISHING INDUSTRY 

One of the things it shows is the difficulties associated with the ways of managing the resource.

NorthReport

'Fishery Failure' Declared For West Coast Salmon Fishery

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080502120306.htm

NorthReport

Salmon: The decline of the British Columbia fisheries 

https://www.amazon.ca/Salmon-decline-British-Columbia-fisheries/dp/15505...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

That link is literally to an Amazon page advertising that book for sale.

Quote:

Salmon: The decline of the British Columbia fisheries 

https://www.amazon.ca/Salmon-decline-British-Columbia-fisheries/dp/15505...

Are we supposed to all give Jeff Bezos our money or something?  What the flying fuck is that link supposed to be, NorthReport?

Well, if nothing else, it's your implicit promise that you'll never, ever criticize Amazon.

Martin N.

Rev Pesky wrote:

Here's an interesting document I found that discusses the various ways of managing the fishery in Canada:

QUOTA LICENSING IN CANADA'S FISHING INDUSTRY 

One of the things it shows is the difficulties associated with the ways of managing the resource.

Great read. Thanks.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Sounds like commercial fishing licences are kind of like cab licences.  Either very expensive to own outright, or something you rent, while doing the actual job the licence permits.

Be an interesting world if we did the same with driver's licences.  Only issue a few thousand a year, let them be auctioned off, then watch as whoever can come up with the money gets behind the wheel.

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dp

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Wrong thread