Anti-Semitic Vandalism
January 17, 2011 - 7:44pm
Montreal police are investigating the weekend attacks on five Jewish institutions, and at least one rabbi plans to tighten security at his synagogue.
The windows were broken at three synagogues in the boroughs of Hampstead and Côte St-Luc, and at a Jewish school and a kindergarten in Côte St-Luc.
"We probably do have to add some surveillance cameras," said Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz of the Tifereth Beth David Jerusalem Synagogue, which was vandalized in Côte St-Luc.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2011/01/17/mtl-amti-semitism.html#ixzz1BJ4HgMBR
Bastards. There have been quite a few incidents in Quebec this past year.
It must be nice that the police assume from the get-go that this is a hate crime. So rare that when a queer person gets bashed, when a street person gets beaten, or when a woman is abused that police can even form the words "hate" and "crime".
A lot of teenagers get drunk and break windows. It may not be a hate crime.
However, synagogues ARE targeted for hate crimes fairly readily given the boisterousness of many anti-semite groups. In my community the synagogue was spray painted and vandalized with swastikas and "SS" and other artifacts of the losers of a long-lost war. But in this case it isn't so clear cut, especially with the scant evidence laid out in the article. Is every time a window smashed at a church a symbol of anti-Christian hate...or is it drunk and destructive teens and such doing what they do best?
Papal Bull, one building being vandalized may be a random incident by drunken idiots looking to break things. Four buildings in a weekend is a pattern.
I agree PB. It's just interesting to note that while synagogues ARE targeted regularily so to are queer people, people living on the street, and women. It's just that police only investigate the possibility of a hate crime (indeed in this example, assume from the beginning of the investigation) in very rare circumstances unless it involves a synagogue [edited to add: stupid thing to say. totally not true].
Exactly the sound logic that tends to elude those investigating other hate crimes.
Yeah, those Jews always get a luxury ride from state authorities, Le T, don't they? I've flagged your comments as being anti-Jewish oppressive language. You might think of retracting them - now.
You are stating I suppose that the state authorities act without bias, and treat all crimes against minorities with the same weight, regardless of race, creed or religion. That implies that the authorities and the police are bias free. I guess you are going to have to provide some support for that view. Got any?
Le T, I don't think you have any evidence to support your highly dubious and problematic claims at posts #2 & #6. It's anti-Semitic speculation. Please refrain.
ETA: cross-posted with Cueball. Cueball, that is not what Unionist said, and you know it. Furthermore, if Le T feels that the police are acting on some sort of pro-Israeli bias (which is what I think was being implied and not, as is even more odious, not to mention demonstrably false, that Jews are a protected demographic), he needs to provide evidence for such a claim.
I guess the board is now asserting that the police and the authorities act without bias. Bizarre really since some of the primary culprits in racist hate crimes against Native people and other people of colour are the police.
Jews are by no means the most marginalized nor the most stygmatized ethnic group in this country, and in no way shape or form are they the targets of racist attacks that are pretty much a daily occurence for many other racial and ethnic groups, some of which are actually perpetrated by the very same police who are meant to investigate such crimes.
I can recall not recent cases of Jewish people being picked up and depostited on the outskirts of Montreal by the Surete, in the middle of winter.
So Cueball, who is more marginalized and oppressed in this country - Muslims or Aboriginals? Women or LGBTQ folks? Chinese Canadians or Japanese Canadians? People of colour or workers? The poor or the disabled
If this vicious ugly bullshit doesn't stop, I may have to express how I really feel.
Jews are by no means the most marginalized nor the most stygmatized ethnic group in this country, and in no way shape or form are they the targets of racist attacks that are pretty much a daily occurence for many other racial and ethnic groups, some of which are actually perpetrated by the very same police who are meant to investigate such crimes.
Oh, our apologies then. We'll just shut the fuck up then when people smash the windows of our synagogues or firebomb our schools and content ourselves knowing that others have it worse...
Why is this in the anti-racist forum in the first place?
It should not be.
Jews are by no means the most marginalized nor the most stigmatized ethnic group in this country, and in no way shape or form are they the targets of racist attacks that are pretty much a daily occurrence for many other racial and ethnic groups, some of which are actually perpetrated by the very same police who are meant to investigate such crimes.
Oh, our apologies then. We'll just shut the fuck up then when people smash the windows of our synagogues or firebomb our schools and content ourselves knowing that others have it worse...
Who said anything about shutting about anti-Semitic attacks? Not me. Not Le Te. All that was expressed was the appearance of bias by the authorities, who appear to systematically investigate attacks against some minorities as "hate crimes" but are not nearly so sensitive about crimes targeting other minorities. You are saying the observe the same standards to all minorities, at all times?
Let me know when the RCMP is given the nod to investigate the Winnipeg police force for a series of apparently race motivated, life endangering, and sometimes lethal incidents involving Native Canadians being dumped off in the middle of the prairies, in the dead cold winter. There is a "pattern" there -- does it amount to hate crimes?
Obviously any apparent hate crime should be investigated, but to point out that certain kinds of hate crimes against certain minorities do not even seem to appear as "hate" crimes on the radar of the authorities, does not imply that one should not denounce other hate crimes.
Am going to state again that it is pretty damn offensive for this topic to be in the anti-racist forum in the first place.
It should be in the national news forum.
It's too bad how people misunderstand things.
Still, if the statements on police bias aren't connected to these attacks, maybe they should have their own thread, just so we don't leap to false conclusions.
Why is this in the anti-racist forum in the first place?
It should not be.
I agree with remind. This thread should be moved to the same forum where we would deal with attacks on mosques. This isn't about "race".
At the same time, those who respond to attacks on synagogues by suggesting that the authorities will defend the Jews ahead of others, should either retract their statements, or go post on some like-minded forum. I can provide some links on request.
Cueball, this discussion style is beneath you. Unless you're spoiling for a fight; if that's the case, it appears that you're in luck. But not with me.
Obviously, no one is saying the police do not exhibit systemic bias against racial (and class, and sexual orientation, and gender) minorities. But you knew that. Le T's comment was objectionable because he insinuated, without proof, that police are inclined to afford Jewish (not Israeli) people and property with special protection. It's nonsense, and it's offensive.
Moving to the national news forum. Please get back to the subject as stated in the OP.
This is a tragedy.
Hate crime is a tragedy no matter who is targeted. I do understand the motivation for those who want to remind others that this happens to many other people. But this is why anti-racism tells you to stop seeing people as members of various groups and just as people-- when we do that we no longer have to turn this in to a group competition to see who is hurting more today. These are people hurting because of intolerance and hate, the very same cause that other people who identify or are identified with other groups end up suffering for.
But I will admit in spite of what I said above. There is a special feeling that I have surrounding anti-semitism-- perhaps because of the obvious history perhaps because it has always been so fashionable for people searching for a target to hate. But for me that is a sentiment-- powerful as it may be it is very much secondary in importance to the reality that these are people suffering not because of anything they have done but because of who they are because someone wants to see them as something other than individuals.
Given that no links other than the one in the OP appear, I am surprised to see someone referring to the police as having stated that the vandalism was "being investigated as a hate crime". The article states that the Irwin Cotler (the MP for the area where the acts occurred) called it "clearly a hate crime". The police spokesperson, on the other hand, asserted that they believed "the crimes are linked" - no statement as to whether or not the police were the act a hate crime. Was some other statement by the police being referred to without linking to it?
On the CBC site here is the most agreed comment:
"As a Muslem I find these actions shocking and unacceptable. As a human being, I find these actions shocking and unacceptable.
We cannot allow these actions to go unchecked. Intolerance against any group, any culture, any religeon, skin colour etc. should be vehimently opposed by all."
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2011/01/17/mtl-amti-semitism.htm...
BagKitty, it is not credible that you would have 6 similar attacks within such a short time all against different Jewish institutions and not conclude it was because they were Jewish.
These were not 6 addresses all sitting side-by-side.
What theory do you have other than a hate crime?
I preceive a lot of dislike for Jews on Babble. I call it an undercurrent. I was brought up christian, and there is stuff about the Jews killing Jesus in the bible. (Also I did note, even as a child, that Jesus was a also a Jew).
I presume that is where the latent hate comes from? Brainwashing as a child?
Anyway, regardless of what the Jewish state does or one of the various Arab states do, I think we should Canadian Jews and Arabs all fairly.
If someone vandalizes a synagogue or a mosque, I think we should treat the vandals harshly because it is an attack on a minority group or race.
I guess others feel differently.
I believe minorities need special protection because bullies like to pick on minorities.
Sean, I think you misunderstood bagkitty's post. He wasn't questioning or denying whether this is a "hate crime". He was simply questioning why some people here are saying that the police rushed to investigate this as a hate crime - when in fact the linked article doesn't say anything of the sort. Bagkitty is quite correct on that point. Le T simply misread the article and jumped to a conclusion.
The ones rushing to call it a hate crime are the pro-Zionist pro-Israel politicians (chiefly Jason Kenney and Michael Ignatieff so far) who would love, once again, to use Jews as scapegoats for their attempts to suppress criticism of Israel.
The whole concept of "hate crime" is pretty nebulous. It depends on the "intent" of the criminal. Those things are hard to judge. What if some misguided asshole attacks a synagogue, because s/he believes Harper and Obama and Netanyahu that the Jewish people are responsible for the actions of the Israeli outlaw regime? Is that an act intended to intimidate or terrorize the Jewish people (which is essentially the definition of hate crimes in the Criminal Code)? Or is it an indictment of the real criminals - the Harpers and Obamas and Netanyahus and Cotlers and their ilk - who try to link Jews with ugly crimes against humanity?
It's a tough question. Usually the rock-throwers and cemetery-defacers are pretty desperate and pathetic characters. The real criminals are much higher up on the food chain.
Cool your jets Sean, I didn't offer an opinion either way as to whether or not it constituted a hate crime. I am quite willing to accept on the face of it that the acts were "linked" (as was stated by the police spokesperson).
The relevant provisions of the Criminal Code (conveniently linked by the CBC here) dealing with hate crimes makes reference to what is commonly understood to be the "intention" of the accused. An act of vandalism, even serial acts of vandalism, does not provide sufficient basis for it to automatically be considered a hate crime. I believe that is why the police spokesperson, as opposed to the politician, did not jump the gun by labelling it as such. I would not be the least surprised if it does turn out to be a case where the perpetators sought to "intimidate, harm or terrify" the Jewish community and if and when such motivation is determined, the designation could well be totally applicable.
Unlike a criminal assault, where the assailant(s) is(are) often heard (by witnesses or the victim) using language that can reasonably be inferred to demonstrate the motiviation behind the attack, or an act of vandalism (spray painting or the like) where the perpetrator(s) leave behind wording or symbols that can, again, reasonably be inferred to demonstrate the motivation, the breaking of windows does not provide sufficient evidence to automatically justify the designation.
[ETA: thanks Unionist, I was obviously writing at the same time you were.]
Yes, Brian. I do think that we should oppose all vandalism against Jewish instituions and personal property in Canada.
I am critical of Israel an several internet forums. I state my criticism--not because I want Israel to disappear, but because I want it to become a better state. However, I do not equate Israelis with the Jews. Israelis are citizens of Israel. Jews are people of the Jewish religion who live all over the world.
Last week, Muslim Egyptians stood in front of a Coptic church to defend it and its worshippers, I would stand in front of a synagogue to defend it and the Jews who worship there if either of them were under threat.
Very right. I did misread the article and I thought that Cotler's words were those of the police. I also apologize for my words, re-reading them I don't like them either. I was shocked that the cops were investigating this crime as a "hate crime" (my misread) and had made such a bold statement to the media (again, my bad).
Cueball, this discussion style is beneath you. Unless you're spoiling for a fight; if that's the case, it appears that you're in luck. But not with me.
Well, in fact, the person who was spoiling for a fight was Unionist, who seemed to be deliberately misreading the intentions of Le T's posts, and you backed Unionist up on that. The idea that Le T's is engaged in an antisemitic rampage on this site goes completely against Le T's posting history, and such accusations were histrionic to say the least.
My post merely met the bar that had already been established by others. It is completely obvious to me that Le T was simply pointing out that accussations of "hate crimes" from official sources are made inconsistently, at best.
The point about bias establishes that if the authorities are capable of bias in terms of their own treatment of certain minorities, then it stands to reason that the same bias would be present in their investigations into crimes commited against those minorities.
Québec solidaire (my quick translation):
Vandalism of Jewish institutions: Québec solidaire denounces "scandalous acts"
Amir Khadir, MNA for Mercier, and Françoise David, president of Québec solidaire, denounce the scandalous acts of vandalism which targeted institutions of the Montréal Jewish community over the weekend.
"Such attacks have no place in a democratic society. These odious actions must be denounced unambiguously, just as I did in 2004 after the arson attack which destroyed the library of the United Talmud Torah school", Mr. Khadir said.
"As a society, we must reject the slightest expression of anti-semitism, or of any hate based on religion or ethnic origin", added Françoise David. "No complacency is possible. Allowing hate to take root would be to renounce our humanity."
ETA: And thank you, Le T.
Why is this in the anti-racist forum in the first place?
It should not be.
I agree with remind. This thread should be moved to the same forum where we would deal with attacks on mosques. This isn't about "race".
At the same time, those who respond to attacks on synagogues by suggesting that the authorities will defend the Jews ahead of others, should either retract their statements, or go post on some like-minded forum. I can provide some links on request.
Again you are asserting that the authorities act without bias. Sorry, this is not the case. One only has to examine the record of Metroplitan Toronto Police "contact cards" to see that there is a direct correlation between who the police stop and question as a routine, and the colour of their skin. Since most Jews in Canada and Toronto are white, Jews are far less likely to be exposed to be targetted for routine harrassment by the police.
This is just one manner in which it can be proven that Jews are specially protected in this society, even if only by benefit of the fact that they are for the most part white.
Given that this bias against people of colour by the police can be clearly and statistically established, I can see no reason to suggest that such bias in favour of white people (Jewish white people included) would not be present in every aspect of police practice, including their investigation into hate crimes.
Again you are asserting that the authorities act without bias.
You've repeated this filthy lie several times, looking to provoke a response. I never said anything of the sort.
[edited - redundant comment - either the mods will act or they will not - who cares.]
Ok. So you agree the authorities act with bias. Therefore, we can assume that this bias prevades all aspects of police practice, including which crimes they identify as "hate crimes" and who they choose to prosecute under hate crimes legislation. Yes or no?
Ok -- sorry Bag Kitty I must have misread the intent of your post and acted too quickly.
I actually did hear today soemone denying it was a hate crime and I was replying to them at the time I was writing and mixed one argument with another..
Again my apologies.
It's all good Sean, I have called off the attack hounds.
My intent was to try and get people to step back a little... I was actually trying on the role of diplomat for a change... guess I should stick with my vocation of guttersnipe.
Ok. So you agree the authorities act with bias. Therefore, we can assume that this bias pervades all aspects of police practice, including which crimes they identify as "hate crimes" and who they choose to prosecute under hate crimes legislation. Yes or no?
In this context, I hardly see how comments like this can be characterized as antisemitic:
It merely states that there is bias in the administration of authority, and claims that other kinds of crimes should be characterized as "hate crimes", attacks against the homeless, gay people and women.
It is totally fair comment.
I think the reaction to Le T's comments were way over-the-top and ill considered. Le T' has been posting here for years, and has always maintained a position that looks at systemic biases that s/he feels do not get enough attention. It's not as if s/he trolls the board looking for examples of special treatment of Jewish people as evidence to support some grand scheme "Jewish plot".
There is no evidence for that whatsoever.
Hi everyone.
I had no internet access this weekend and I'm enroute to Toronto from Ottawa right now.
Nobody here has argued that the police operate without bias.
Fyi, I am teaching a course on Victimology this semester and just gave a lecture on hate crimes in Canada. The largest group of people who are victims of reported hate crimes are Blacks, the next group is those who identify as Jewish. Anti-semitism is real. Yeah, I mean real anti-Semitism, rocks in windows of synagogues, defacing homes and other buildings with grafitti, bullying and violence. Even though the pro-Zionists have tried to re-take anti-Semitism, since we are social justice oriented folks, I'm sure we can still be able to name real anti-Semitism for what it is.
Are the police fucked up in their priorities? Of course.
Do they look at the interests and concerns of white folks before the concerns of folks of colour/Aboriginal folks? Of course.
But in Canada some queers are white, many Jews are white, and hate crimes claimed by both groups should and MUST be taken seriously. If not by progressives, then by whom?
That said, Cueball you need to back the hell off.
And since Le T has retracted , deleted and apologized for her comments (which I didn't see), everyone needs to stop talking about them.
I preceive a lot of dislike for Jews on Babble. I call it an undercurrent.
Please reconsider this in light of what Maysie just said.
[And if you don't get the connection, say so.]
I didn't delete them. They're still there for all to see. I edited in a note saying that i thought that it was a stupid thing to say. I reacted without thinking and without reading the article very well. I fully agree with unionist and maysie that ALL hate crimes are important and I agree with Catchfire that my comment was totally without evidence.
Thanks, Maysie. And no, Le T never said anything worse than what you can read above - I just asked for a retraction before the discussion got out of hand, and Le T retracted. There has never been any doubt in anyone's mind here where Le T stands on issues of discrimination - on the contrary, I've learned to rein in some of my privilege by reading Le T's posts.
That said, Cueball you need to back the hell off.
I disagree entirely. Flipant charges of anti-semitism by long time Babblers against other long time Babbler, lead precisely to this kind of statement:
I preceive a lot of dislike for Jews on Babble. I call it an undercurrent. I was brought up christian, and there is stuff about the Jews killing Jesus in the bible. (Also I did note, even as a child, that Jesus was a also a Jew).
I presume that is where the latent hate comes from? Brainwashing as a child?
Having Babblers make such flip assertions of serious charges, and then have the board throw its weight behind them is only encouraging the use of the anti-semetism charge as a means of silencing criticism. There are many other ways that this discussion might have been handled, aside from making the anti-semitism charge and making demands for moderation, apologies, retractions "now", and so forth.
Yeah, those Jews always get a luxury ride from state authorities, Le T, don't they? I've flagged your comments as being anti-Jewish oppressive language. You might think of retracting them - now.
It is almost a case in point that the ensuing reaction was one of apparent panic, and immediate sanction.
As can clearly be seen by the ensuing record. There was absolutely no basis for that charge to be brought against Le T, and any over-the-top statements were merely expressions of emotion, not latent board-wide bias against Jews, which is precisely the conclusion that Brian White came too. Rather than quelling the suspicion that the board is a festering pool of viperous anti-semites, the impression has been reinforced. Unionist, and the board moderators should have been totally clear right from the start, based on Le T's previous history here, which is well known, that whatever was being said, was not coming from prejudice against Jews -- not even remotely so.
There was no reason for the discussion to go to that level, at all.
This is just one manner in which it can be proven that Jews are specially protected in this society, even if only by benefit of the fact that they are for the most part white.
Would it be possible for some moderator to respectfully request that Cueball open another thread (perhaps on another board) if he wishes to discuss the colour of Jews and their special protection by the police? In my humble opinion, a thread talking about Nazi-style vandalism of Jewish buildings is not the best place for that discussion.
This is just one manner in which it can be proven that Jews are specially protected in this society, even if only by benefit of the fact that they are for the most part white.
Would it be possible for some moderator to respectfully request that Cueball open another thread (perhaps on another board) if he wishes to discuss the colour of Jews and their special protection by the police? In my humble opinion, a thread talking about Nazi-style vandalism of Jewish buildings is not the best place for that discussion.
Pointing out that most Jews are white, and that as white people is not saying anything specifically about Jews. It is saying something about white people. Do I find it funny that you are arguing that feelings of one ethnic minority which for the most part is part the white ethnic majority should be specially protected by the board moderators, because you allege that saying that those people are specially protected by the state because they are for the most part white is inappropriate.
Your comment that I should do this on another board seems to be an oblique suggestion that I be banned. Lol. Fine.
So, your contention is that there is no special interest by the state in hate crimes against Jews, and the state acts without bias in this matter. Therefore, if I review "hate speech" charges brought by the state over the last 10 years, I will find that the number of cases brought concerning hate speech against minorities, will be roughly proportional to their per capita representation in the population?
Am I right? Is that the case?
It seems at times that racist acts perpertrated by the State of Israel are treated differently than anti-semitic acts.
There is no way I will answer Cueball's dirty provocative baiting statements. I have flagged his posts as offensive and asked the moderators to get him out of this thread.
It seems at times that racist acts perpertrated by the State of Israel are treated differently than anti-semitic acts.
Though technically, those are anti-Semitic acts as well.
This is quite amazing. Earlier reports from the Montreal Gazette quoted Jason Kenney trying to link the vandalism with his favourite subject - suckholing to Israel and preparing to ban its critics:
That paragraph has now been "sanitized" from later versions of the Gazette story, but can still be found (at this moment anyway) in other Postmedia outlets, such as the Regina Leader-Post.
Although there's a minor coverup under way, you can rest assured that the Harperites' use of Jewish scapegoats to pursue their pro-Israel agenda will not stop.
There is no way I will answer Cueball's dirty provocative baiting statements. I have flagged his posts as offensive and asked the moderators to get him out of this thread.
Yeah I'm about 1/64th Jewish, and I must say that all 64ths of me are deeply offended by absolutely EVERY thing Cueball has posted here. I vote for a one-hour suspension!! But I'll settle for a strongly worded rebuke, or something.
Although there's a minor coverup under way, you can rest assured that the Harperites' use of Jewish scapegoats to pursue their pro-Israel agenda will not stop.
I noticed this too. On the subway this morning there was a small article in Metro (a Torstar free daily repackage) that noted the attacks against a daycare centre, a school and a synagogue. As an almost non-sequitor the author includes a quick paragraph in the middle of the blurb noting some controversy around a shoe store targetted by the BDS campaign. It was mentioned as if it was linked to the attacks. Very weird.
This is quite amazing. Earlier reports from the Montreal Gazette quoted Jason Kenney trying to link the vandalism with his favourite subject - suckholing to Israel and preparing to ban its critics:
That paragraph has now been "sanitized" from later versions of the Gazette story, but can still be found (at this moment anyway) in other Postmedia outlets, such as the Regina Leader-Post.
Although there's a minor coverup under way, you can rest assured that the Harperites' use of Jewish scapegoats to pursue their pro-Israel agenda will not stop.
You aren't suggesting bias by the authorities are you? I am sure 1/64th of Fidel is offended. The rest of him is just fine with that.
We discussed last month starting here Amir Khadir's courageous decision to join a pro-Palestinian boycott of a store selling Israeli-made shoes in the very constituency which he represents in the National Assembly. That act, of course, drove the pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian, and Islamophobe forces berserk - on an international scale - even noted hatemonger Daniel Pipes weighed in against Khadir (I will not link to his neofascist comments - they can be googled).
Then, a couple days ago, some of the worst pro-Zionist politicians in Québec decided to counter the boycott by publicly shopping at the store - among them Marlene Jennings, whose partner happens to be the head of the Quebec-Israel Committee, plus some neocon deadbeat from the ADQ:
Politicians rally to support Montreal store selling Israeli shoes
... and now these attacks on Jewish institutions.
Israel has very good friends in very high places in this country. Jews do not. Given the circumstances, the Harpers, Kenneys, Jennings and their ilk will not behave differently than their counterparts in WWII Europe did - and I mean Vichy France, not the very ordinary folks who sheltered Jews and other victims of the Nazi genocide at the risk of their own lives.
The Jewish state has nothing to do with attacks on minorities here.
The foreign policy of Canada is full of double standard and always will be.
It is a great pity that people use that to treat anti-semitic acts lightly.
The context seems to be, Israel is bad so a few rocks through windows is ok.
It is amazing how quickly rocks become petrol bombs and bullets.
To me, ignoring the rocks is the first stage towards an adult version of lord of the flies.
It seems at times that racist acts perpertrated by the State of Israel are treated differently than anti-semitic acts.
Cueball I told you to back off. Did you think I didn't mean it?
Hate crimes represent less than 1% of all crimes. Nonetheless, since hate crimes affect more than just the individual(s) targetted they are taken more seriously than let's say, an assault with no hate crime motivation. That's the theory at any rate.
I frankly don't think the state cares much about hate crimes against any of the top "victim" groups. And no, the proportion of which groups are victims of hate crimes (I listed the top two above) absolutely doesn't match their proportion in the general population.
For anyone interested in looking at facts and statistics on hate crimes, please check this link. And this one. Both are large-ish pdf files.
Fidel, stay the hell out of this thread if you can't contribute to the topic.
.............
This thread needs to stay on topic. No more baiting. We're adults here, yes?
I frankly don't think the state cares much about hate crimes against any of the top "victim" groups. And no, the proportion of which groups are victims of hate crimes (I listed the top two above) absolutely doesn't match their proportion in the general population.
Herein lies my confusion. I don't at all see why making this point is off-bounds. The issue of hate crimes was brought up in relationship to these acts of vandalism, and the prosecution of hate crimes is a perfectly legitimate topic of discussion therefore. I don't really see what a big deal it is to point out that the authorities are more interested in hate crimes against some groups, as opposed to others, even if it is merely to bolster their political agenda regarding Israel as Unionist suggests, and conversely to smear anti-Israeli-Apartheid activists, as has now been done in the press.
To say that this manipulation is not really in service of the Jewish community, as Unionst seems to be saying is a fair point, but noting that the authorities, including the sitting government seem to take an inordinate interest in highlighting and prosecuting crimes related to anti-semitism, as opposed to other hate crimes, including having elected officials put pressure on police authorities to investigate and pursue these crimes more vigorously than other such crimes.
Is it too much to note that while the police are being pressured to pursue this crime as a hate crime in Montreal, which indeed they should, the police in Toronto are protecting the right of "freedom of speech" for organizations such as the Jewish Defense League to have rallies in support of the neo-Fascist English Defense League that is most certainly not only advocating but also actively engaging in violence against Muslim and South Asian families and children.
Jews are by no means the most marginalized nor the most stygmatized ethnic group in this country, and in no way shape or form are they the targets of racist attacks that are pretty much a daily occurence for many other racial and ethnic groups, some of which are actually perpetrated by the very same police who are meant to investigate such crimes.
I can recall not recent cases of Jewish people being picked up and depostited on the outskirts of Montreal by the Surete, in the middle of winter.
Could some mod please remove Cueball from this thread, before someone loses their temper and calls him and his "opinions" by the names that they richly deserve?
Digging holes in the ground is hard and often very unproductive work. Especially in the wintertime when the ground is frozen.
I think it is really unfortunate what happened to these people, and I feel for them.
And I have no idea what the motivation was for the attackers (assuming that the five attacks on one weekend were related) but I am also concerned about what might have driven them to that.
I hope I can say that without seemign to distract from the other injustices that are happening in the world, but attacking schools and community centres (read: churches) is really depressing, no matter who it happens to.
Cueball, making your point(s) without being anti-Semitic, like in post #52, is great.
I could also argue that while police are pursuing crime xyz, their services would be better put to use tracking down deadbeat dads, or charging men who abuse women. While both our points are valid, actual anti-Semitism is still a problem in Canada. Conjecturing that it's taken more seriously than other crimes, while it may be true, serves to minimize it.
Even one anti-Semitic hate crime per year is unacceptable. And I feel the same about all hate crimes, reported and unreported.
Jews are by no means the most marginalized nor the most stygmatized ethnic group in this country, and in no way shape or form are they the targets of racist attacks that are pretty much a daily occurence for many other racial and ethnic groups, some of which are actually perpetrated by the very same police who are meant to investigate such crimes.
I can recall not recent cases of Jewish people being picked up and depostited on the outskirts of Montreal by the Surete, in the middle of winter.
Could some mod please remove Cueball from this thread, before someone loses their temper and calls him and his "opinions" by the names that they richly deserve?
Yeah. I know. Telling the truth is anti-semitic. Not that you have a shred of evidence to suggests to that anything I said above is untrue. Indeed, as the report on hate crimes reference above points out, 79% of all hate crimes in this country are directed at ethnic minorities, not religious groups. You sir are totally out to lunch.
Show me any evidence whatsoever that the Jews are the subject to the kind of racism experienced by black people or native people in this country. Show me that they live in conditions anywhere near those of either of those groups, as a rule. But no, rather than site any facts, or even argue the point, you just denounce as a way of silencing criticism.
Bernie Farber is that you?
Cueball, making your point(s) without being anti-Semitic, like in post #52, is great.
I could also argue that while police are pursuing crime xyz, their services would be better put to use tracking down deadbeat dads, or charging men who abuse women. While both our points are valid, actual anti-Semitism is still a problem in Canada. Conjecturing that it's taken more seriously than other crimes, while it may be true, serves to minimize it.
Even one anti-Semitic hate crime per year is unacceptable. And I feel the same about all hate crimes, reported and unreported.
Huh? What was Anti-Semitic about anything I said. I said something anti-Semitic. Where? what? Precisely where? Where for example did I say is was ok to smash windows of synagogues? Anything like that anywhere? Did I say that these acts should not be pursued as a hate crime? In fact I have said the opposite several times.
From post number 14:
I am really genuinely confused by this outrageous smear campaign that is being orchestrated by Unionist and directed at me, now by the moderators.
No I really was offended. One of my great-great-great give or take a great grandfathers was a founding member of one of the first synagogues in Montreal. But apparently only my anti-right wing Afghan extremist remarks are worthy of a suspension though, so you're safe. Carry on.
Ok, you then, since no one else seems capable of explaining why it is that putting forward the point that Jews are not the most marginalized or persecuted people in Canada, and that inordinate emphasis is put on "hate crimes" against Jews groups, as opposed to others, is anti-Semitic?
The main body of this point was later affirmed by a moderator when she said:
I frankly don't think the state cares much about hate crimes against any of the top "victim" groups. And no, the proportion of which groups are victims of hate crimes (I listed the top two above) absolutely doesn't match their proportion in the general population.
Has the board gone completely nuts? Why hasn't Unionist denounced Maysie yet?
Whether it's marginalization more or less is besides the point imo. But at the same time, I am not telling anyone how they should think about it. Carry on, cuz I'm not bothered by you or the horse you rode in on. My RC upbringing says to turn the other cheek.
There's no evidence that this is a hate crime.
But I must add that organizations such as the JDL aligning itsself with Neo-Nazi groups and involving themselves with hate filled protests without prominent members of the Jewish community condemning and distancing themselves from such groups will only cause a rise in REAL anti-semitism and not the phony anti-semitism of criticizing the state of Israel.
Not to condone,promote or trivialize hatred but what if the EDL came to Canada for an anti-Jewish protest?...And what if a Palestinian group were to join in?
The head of the Montreal chapter of B'nai Brith was lamenting Quebec's lack of hate crimes legislation...This may be true but if ever a hate law were to be written here in Quebec,the JDL and all the public homophobes,etc..would also be subject to it.
Or atleast I hope....The anti-Muslim protest was every bit as unacceptable as someone throwing a rock at a synogogue window...BUT where was the outrage and public condemnation from Ottawa during that Neo-Nazi rally in Toronto?
Whether it's marginalization more or less is besides the point imo. But at the same time, I am not telling anyone how they should think about it. Carry on, cuz I'm not bothered by you or the horse you rode in on. My RC upbringing says to turn the other cheek.
So you are saying that if there is a humanitarian human rights crisis in this country it is the persecution and marginalization of Jewish people, and not prejudice, expressed even by the state authorities, against people of colour, including African-Canadians, South Asians, and First Nations people. Am I right?
And to suggest otherwise amounts to defamation and false history and is therefore tantamount to anti-semitism?
If the feds were Clint Eastwood, they'd have to admit to having marginalized everything that walked 'er crawled at one time er 'nother.
Ok, you then, since no one else seems capable of explaining why it is that putting forward the point that Jews are not the most marginalized or persecuted people in Canada, and that inordinate emphasis is put on "hate crimes" against Jews groups, as opposed to others, is anti-Semitic?
Two thirds of all hate crimes against a religious group are against Jews. Overall, Jews rank slightly behind blacks as the most likely to be victims of hate crimes, with 165 against Jews committed in 2008 (last available states I could find).
Define marginalized or persecuted. Does being pretty much the only group where you have to worry about someone attacking (including firebombing) your kids' school count?
So. You have nothing specific to explain what I said that was anti-semitic, just an rote denounciation, because you don't like me and there its fashionable to bash Cueball as a racist because he had the temerity to point out that Jews are not the ethnic group that is most persecuted or maginalized in Canadian society.
Cueball, you are derailing this thread and misrepresenting everyone's opinion, including that of the original remark which prompted this discussion, for which the babbler retracted and apologized. I have no idea why you would want to make the point that Jews in Canada are victims of less or less-violent discrimination than other minorities. Any answers I draw are highly disturbing to me.
I'm asking you to stop posting in this thread now. If you have any further points to make PM me or Maysie, or email us (catchfire[at]rabble.ca, maysie[at]rabble.ca).
There's no evidence that this is a hate crime.
So, you think that MULTIPLE Jewish institutions being attacked in one weekend is just a coincidence?
So. You have nothing specific to explain what I said that was anti-semitic, just an rote denounciation, because you don't like me and there its fashionable to bash Cueball as a racist because he had the temerity to point out that Jews are not the ethnic group that is most persecuted or maginalized in Canadian society.
I don't think anyone CLAIMED that Jews were the MOST persecuted people in Canada. Your point, however, seems to be that since others may have it worse, it's not worth getting riled up when our institutions get attacked, which is disgusting. (I also think the unspoken insinuation in your messages has been "Don't shed too many tears for those rich Jews who control the government and media"). It's like saying we shouldn't discuss when a gay man gets beaten up because women are statistically more likely to be assaulted. Well, assault is wrong, no matter against whom and so is attacking institutions important to any community and trying to intimidate its members.
It is really hard to know where to start with that pile of crap.
1) You could at least come out with and say whatever you conclude, rather than making Bernie Farber like "allusions", and smear like Unionist has been doing. Perhaps making yourself articulate your disturbing conclusion would help you figure out what you precisely is anti-semitic about what I said. Wow! That would novel.
2) The thread has been derailed by Unionist disgusting smears.
3) The remark that Le T apologized for was the second remark which included a reference to Synagogues that was edited with an apology. The remark that I defended was this:
It must be nice that the police assume from the get-go that this is a hate crime. So rare that when a queer person gets bashed, when a street person gets beaten, or when a woman is abused that police can even form the words "hate" and "crime".
4) In the context of a discussion about hate-crimes and their application, which is in part what this thread is about Le T, raised the objection that other hate crimes go unnoticed while others are punished, and there seems to be a disproportionate administration of justice in the case of certain groups over others, in this case Jews.
Making that point that Jews are not the most marginalized persons is a way of contextualizing the data on hate crimes, so that we can see that the unbalanced prosecution of "hate crimes" is actually an expression of systemic prejudice itself, including direct hate crimes made by agents of the state, against other groups which go un-prosecuted.
Indeed Maysie has confirmed the general point of this view, in her own post. I want to know why any of these statements about there reality of Canadian society is construed as anti-Semitic.
I frankly don't think the state cares much about hate crimes against any of the top "victim" groups. And no, the proportion of which groups are victims of hate crimes (I listed the top two above) absolutely doesn't match their proportion in the general population.
Indeed, Maysie confirmed that my post at 52 was just fine, but at this point, for some reason its AOK, even though it is precisely the same point I have been making since the beginning of this thread.
These are very mixed messages, and the fact that you haven't even correctly identified which statement ot Le T's I "defended" makes me think you really haven't analyzed or looked at what I have been saying all along, and are basing your thoughts on Unionists inflammatory rhetoric and disinformation.
I have now been charged as an anti-semite, by various people including Maysie. and you now you are also "alluding" to such. How it is that you can not actually express precisely what it is that I have said that is anti-Semitic, but feel free to make such poisonous allusions really makes me draw some disturbing conclusions.
It is because of such unsupported allusions and accusation that I have continued to reiterate my point, in the hope that someone will fucking give me a clear answer.
So. You have nothing specific to explain what I said that was anti-semitic, just an rote denounciation, because you don't like me and there its fashionable to bash Cueball as a racist because he had the temerity to point out that Jews are not the ethnic group that is most persecuted or maginalized in Canadian society.
I don't think anyone CLAIMED that Jews were the MOST persecuted people in Canada. Your point, however, seems to be that since others may have it worse, it's not worth getting riled up when our institutions get attacked, which is disgusting. (I also think the unspoken insinuation in your messages has been "Don't shed too many tears for those rich Jews who control the government and media"). It's like saying we shouldn't discuss when a gay man gets beaten up because women are statistically more likely to be assaulted. Well, assault is wrong, no matter against whom and so is attacking institutions important to any community and trying to intimidate its members.
Does it really? No my point is that there is systemic bias in how hate crimes, and in particular how "hate speech" is prosecuted. Seems like fair comment on a thread about hate crimes. No where did I allege that these acts should not be pursued as possible hate crimes. That is some fantasy people made up. I pointed this out in post 14.
Cueball, I asked you to stay out of this thread. You didn't. You're suspended for three days.
It is because of such unsupported allusions and accusation that I have continued to reiterate my point, in the hope that someone will fucking give me a clear answer.
Speaking as one who has found himself more than once in discussions where I felt misunderstood or falsely-accused, I'd say there is a point at which the prudent course of action is to realize there is no point in proceeding, make your peace and be done with it. This is, after all, just the internet.
Moderators offering their advice is something I take as a pretty clear sign. I'm serious. Not trying to be snarky.
(edit)
Ooops. Cross posted
Forest, trees. Oh well. CJC and Kenney have us under their spell.
A summary of canada's hate crime legislation
http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/resources/legislation/canadian_law/federal/criminal_code/criminal_code_hate.cfm
But I must add that organizations such as the JDL aligning itsself with Neo-Nazi groups and involving themselves with hate filled protests without prominent members of the Jewish community condemning and distancing themselves from such groups will only cause a rise in REAL anti-semitism and not the phony anti-semitism of criticizing the state of Israel.
What kind of bullshit statement is this? Many members of the Jewish community condemned and distanced themselves from this action and the JDL. And who are you to say who should have to condemn are distance themselves from anything? Maybe do some research before shooting your mouth off. Flagged!
alan, speculating on what will lead to a rise in anti-semitism? And who folks should and shouldn't align themselves with? Really? Cut it the hell out.
What a train wreck this thread has turned into. I'm not closing it, but damn.
First off,it's been well publicized that it took PRESSURE for the CJC's Bernie Farber to condemn the despicable JDL.
Second,if this current political climate in the world continues,prepare for wave after wave of extremist groups to pop up all over the globe..It's already started but..We ain't seen nothing yet...I don't believe that is simple speculation.
Thirdly...If we are going to talk about persecution,we need to talk about the groups that are actually being persecuted.
Homosexuals,homeless people,prostitutes,the unemployed,drug addicts, Native Americans and the mentally ill..Those groups are far more persecuted than any other group you can name...Except for the Palestinian people and Muslims in general who are subject to more hate,intolerance,racism and persecution than ANY other religious group on the planet and are the target of hate groups like the EDL,the Tea Partiers,Republicans,Conservatives..etc...etc...AND the JDL.
I agree with Maysie...This thread is a train wreck...So this is the last post I will make in this thread.
I made my point and I have nothing left to say of this subject.
I must say this has been an excellent discussion of Anti-Semitic Vandalism.
At least no one has posted a link to jewish people fighting in a synagogue like in the thread on kirpans.
@alan smithee
I think you've missed the point of what Maysie and I are claiming to be offensive, inaccurate and out of line. No one's arguing against the fact that there are groups in Canada and elsewhere face persecution, and that the Jewish people, despite wide spread anti-semitism, are not an oppressed minority. What is despicable in your post above is that you seem to be trying to use the actions of an extremist group to justify anti-semitism. And the CJC does not represent all Jews, nor does the JDL, nor does B'Nai Brith for that matter.
There were Jewish groups that signed on to the open letter denouncing the event. Namely Independent Jewish Voices Toronto, International Jewish Anti-Zionish Network (IJAN), Toronto, and Not in Our Name (NION): Jewish Voices Opposing Zionism.
And, I must say, that while Jews in Toronto, Montreal, or the rest of Canada, are not an oppressed minority, I don`t think that takes away from the fact these acts of vandalism were clearly violent, hate-fuelled, anti-semitic attacks. And that is a problem.
I found this article about the Ukrainian reaction to the Human Rights Centre germane to this discussion. I think Cueball's words were a little over the top but the characterization of them was worse. Seems it could be argued that if Cueball's remarks were anti-Semitic then so is this. I think that our racist history in relation to First Nations should be the subject of the majority of the museum followed by our state persecution of religious and ethnic groups like the Doukabours and Japanese and Ukrainians who were all held in interment camps in Canada.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/01/08/16810516.html
@Cytizen H.
I apologize for generalizing an entire people..That was wrong.
I also was not trying to minimize the attacks on synagogues..
I think I was fixated on the lack of condemnation--specifically by Ottawa--of the neo-nazi rally in Toronto.
Equating groups such as the CJC,B'nai Brith and the JDL as the unifying voice of the Jewish communities of Canada,I put my foot firmly in my mouth.
I guess I was still fuming over the anti-Muslim rally and the fact that the JDL played a hand in organizing it.
It was a thread drift.
I personally hate ANY group who advocates hate,intolerance and persecution of another group or people.
You live and learn and it's always best to stick with the topic...I didn't,so I retract my previous statements from this thread.
I stand by the undercurrent remark. I think anti-semitic people have a blind spot and they see things in black and white.
So racist attacks (mostly by white people) against (mostly white) jews is somehow not seen as racism.
Maybe people learn these extremely narrow definitions of words from dictionarys?
Racism is not all about skin colour. My Xwife's great great great grandmother was black.
She has a great head of hair and when we lived in Ireland the shout "nappy head" was thrown in her direction a few times.
She is whiter than me.
@alan smithee
I appreciate very mcuh the apology and retraction. Thank you for your thought and consideration.
No one's arguing against the fact that there are groups in Canada and elsewhere face persecution, and that the Jewish people, despite wide spread anti-semitism, are not an oppressed minority.
Thanks for making explicit that very essential point, CH.
The Jews of Europe were not an oppressed minority - except perhaps at times and in some places and in some ways (particularly the Russian empire and generally in pre-French Revolution and feudal contexts, where Jews were denied civil rights afforded to others). Nor, arguably, were the Tutsis in Rwanda or the South Asians in Uganda. That did not save them from being the objects of discrimination which could, in the appropriate conditions, be whipped up into virulent xenophobia, exclusion, detention, deportation, and genocide (in some cases).
Attempts to compare or "rate" different forms of human subordination, degradation, subjugation, seem to me to have the effect (if not the aim) of benignly neglecting or even justifying xenophobia - which, of course, is what our common enemy desires, in the spirit of "divide and rule".
Attempts to compare or "rate" different forms of human subordination, degradation, subjugation, seem to me to have the effect (if not the aim) of benignly neglecting or even justifying xenophobia - which, of course, is what our common enemy desires, in the spirit of "divide and rule".
Agreed, and it is a point that will never be resolved because no one has an absolute perspective or opinion on this.
And by saying so, I'm not trying to equate all oppression. Of course I know some have it far, far worse, and are much more targetted than others. On the other hand on an individual level, a fist to the jaw feels just the same no matter who gets it.
What caught my attention in this case is the fact that the attack involves children who are probably going to want to hear an explanation as to why someone would break the windows of their school. That said, we had two incidents of broken windows and swastikas on our school in the last year. My guess is that in our case it was goofballs, not Nazis.
I think despite their age, the kids in that Jewish school will probably realize that their vandalism has a more serious meaning.
At least no one has posted a link to jewish people fighting in a synagogue like in the thread on kirpans.
How about in front of a synagogue?
Bacchus, jeez, you're bordering on baiting with this bullshit, both here and in the thread on the kirpan in the National Assembly.
Christians conduct all kind of violence in the name of Chrstianity, that's not the point. But somehow that's not on your radar. Only the "other" religions. This is an anti-oppression issue. So cut it out.
No Im responding to baiting. And it the other thread I pointed out that the kirpan had been used for violence refuting krops claim while at the same time agreeing with his sentiment.
And then his nose got out of joint when someone didnt slavishly follow his line of BS
No Im responding to baiting. And it the other thread I pointed out that the kirpan had been used for violence refuting krops claim while at the same time agreeing with his sentiment.
And then his nose got out of joint when someone didnt slavishly follow his line of BS
Kroptkin from the other thread:
It seems strange to ban veils and kirpans but not crucifixes and habits. They are equivalent symbols in their religion but we trust a catholic priest or nun but not a devout Sikh or moslem. Ban all religious symbols or none. This banning selected non Xian symbols but no Xian ones is merely discrimination.
What was your nasty little snipe at Sikh's meant to disprove?
Alright. This thread is over. Please start a new thread if anyone would actually like to discuss anti-Semitic vandalism.