Are you a Jew-hater? Based on a Toronto Sun column by Lorrie Goldstein

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Skinny Dipper
Are you a Jew-hater? Based on a Toronto Sun column by Lorrie Goldstein

Here's how to spot the real Jew haters

Last Updated: 8th March 2009, 7:31am

 

Today being the official end for another year of Israeli Apartheid Week, let's address the absurd lament from its enthusiasts that you can't criticize Israel today without being labelled an anti-Semite.

Bull. First, let's dispense with "anti-Semite" -- a confusing term since Arabs can be Semites and many Jews aren't.

Instead, let's call it what it is -- "Jew hatred."

So, can people criticize Israel without being accused of Jew hatred? Of course.

Jews and non-Jews, living both in Israel and the Diaspora, criticize Israel all the time without being accused of Jew hatred.

Some of the strongest criticism can be found in the influential Israeli newspaper, Haaretz.

In fact, it always amuses me when Jew haters send me e-mails citing Jewish writers criticizing Israel -- their "logic" being that Israel is so evil, even Jews are attacking it.

Wrong.

First, unlike in much of the Arab/Muslim world, in Israel, criticizing the state isn't a one-way ticket to prison, torture or death.

Second, unlike in much of the Arab/Muslim world, Jewish religious leaders aren't known for issuing death threats against writers who offend them, which also tends to cut down on internal criticism.

By contrast, Jews criticize Israel all the time.

I think Israel's settlement of the West Bank, pursued for decades by both Labour and Likud governments, has been morally wrong, a strategic mistake and a major impediment to peace.

I believe the Israeli policy of bulldozing the family homes of terrorism suspects is an example of collective punishment, in effect, a war crime.

PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION

I don't like the Israeli system of proportional representation, which forces mainstream parties to make deals for power with small, extremist ones, whose policies are often racist to both Arabs and Jews.

None of that makes me a Jew hater.

As my Sun Media colleague and friend Michael Coren cleverly puts it, not all criticism of Israel indicates Jew hatred, but all Jew haters criticize Israel.

What's more, they criticize Israel exclusively and obsessively and never with any context.

The Jew hater never admits or mentions that if Israeli policies seem brutal to Canadians, part of the reason is that Israel resides in a much rougher neighbourhood -- the Mideast, not North America.

The Jew hater never admits or mentions that the Occupied Territories were occupied for a reason -- the repeated attempts of its Arab neighbours, starting on the day after Israel was created in 1948, to drive it into the sea.

The Jew hater condemns Israel for brutalities against Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims, while remaining silent about atrocities carried out against Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims by other Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims. That's because the Jew hater isn't motivated by love of anyone else, just hatred of Jews.

Taking his or her cue from Hamas, the Jew hater no longer even pretends to support a two-state solution in the Mideast -- an independent Palestine living in peace beside a secure Israel -- but today advocates a "one-state" solution, arguing the very idea of a Jewish state is racist.

To be sure, arguing in favour of a one-state solution isn't in itself evidence of Jew hatred.

It could be motivated by idealism, although, in my view, painfully naive.

The way to flush out the Jew haters, however, is to ask them whether they would make the same argument in favour of eliminating, say, the Islamic character of The Islamic Republic of Iran?

If the response is stunned silence or indignant doubletalk, that's a Jew hater.

Admittedly, it's harder to smoke out Jew haters than it used to be.

In the old days, they were pretty obvious -- the folks in love with Hitler, who simultaneously argue Jews control the world, the banks, the media and Hollywood, and who started the Second World War in order that ... uh ... Hitler could kill six million Jews in the Holocaust, which ... uh ... never really happened anyway. (Hey, I said they were Jew haters, I didn't say they were smart.)

Today, however, Jew hatred more often comes in the guise of a professed concern for human rights.

Except, of course, for Jews.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/lorrie_goldstein/2009/03/08...

I'm just wondering.  It's OK for us to criticize Israel so long as we also criticize the Arab countries surrounding Israel.  It's not OK to criticize Israel based on its own actions.

If I wish to oppose the Alberta Tar Oil-Sands Project, I guess I will have to include a comment about the Ayrabs controlling all that oil in the Middle East.

Skinny Dipper

I can't figure out why my mind is a blank.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Skinny Dipper, it's possible your OP was too long. I can access your text. Would you like me to try to re-post it?

Stargazer

Lorrie Goldtein is a complete ass.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Yeah for sure. I think that was SD's point. 

Okay this is silly. I'm going to repost the text in the next two posts.  

Maysie Maysie's picture

Posted by Skinny Dipper: 

Quote:

Here's how to spot the real Jew haters

By LORRIE GOLDSTEIN
Toronto Sun
Last Updated: 8th March 2009, 7:31am

Today being the official end for another year of Israeli Apartheid Week, let's address the absurd lament from its enthusiasts that you can't criticize Israel today without being labelled an anti-Semite.

Bull. First, let's dispense with "anti-Semite" -- a confusing term since Arabs can be Semites and many Jews aren't.

Instead, let's call it what it is -- "Jew hatred."
So, can people criticize Israel without being accused of Jew hatred? Of course.

Jews and non-Jews, living both in Israel and the Diaspora, criticize Israel all the time without being accused of Jew hatred.

Some of the strongest criticism can be found in the influential Israeli newspaper, Haaretz.
In fact, it always amuses me when Jew haters send me e-mails citing Jewish writers criticizing Israel -- their "logic" being that Israel is so evil, even Jews are attacking it.

Wrong.

First, unlike in much of the Arab/Muslim world, in Israel, criticizing the state isn't a one-way ticket to prison, torture or death.

Second, unlike in much of the Arab/Muslim world, Jewish religious leaders aren't known for issuing death threats against writers who offend them, which also tends to cut down on internal criticism.

By contrast, Jews criticize Israel all the time.
I think Israel's settlement of the West Bank, pursued for decades by both Labour and Likud governments, has been morally wrong, a strategic mistake and a major impediment to peace.

I believe the Israeli policy of bulldozing the family homes of terrorism suspects is an example of collective punishment, in effect, a war crime.

PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
I don't like the Israeli system of proportional representation, which forces mainstream parties to make deals for power with small, extremist ones, whose policies are often racist to both Arabs and Jews.
None of that makes me a Jew hater.

As my Sun Media colleague and friend Michael Coren cleverly puts it, not all criticism of Israel indicates Jew hatred, but all Jew haters criticize Israel.
What's more, they criticize Israel exclusively and obsessively and never with any context.

The Jew hater never admits or mentions that if Israeli policies seem brutal to Canadians, part of the reason is that Israel resides in a much rougher neighbourhood -- the Mideast, not North America.

The Jew hater never admits or mentions that the Occupied Territories were occupied for a reason -- the repeated attempts of its Arab neighbours, starting on the day after Israel was created in 1948, to drive it into the sea.
The Jew hater condemns Israel for brutalities against Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims, while remaining silent about atrocities carried out against Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims by other Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims. That's because the Jew hater isn't motivated by love of anyone else, just hatred of Jews.

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Posted by Skinny Dipper:  

Quote:
Taking his or her cue from Hamas, the Jew hater no longer even pretends to support a two-state solution in the Mideast -- an independent Palestine living in peace beside a secure Israel -- but today advocates a "one-state" solution, arguing the very idea of a Jewish state is racist.

To be sure, arguing in favour of a one-state solution isn't in itself evidence of Jew hatred.

It could be motivated by idealism, although, in my view, painfully naive.

The way to flush out the Jew haters, however, is to ask them whether they would make the same argument in favour of eliminating, say, the Islamic character of The Islamic
Republic of Iran?

If the response is stunned silence or indignant doubletalk, that's a Jew hater.

Admittedly, it's harder to smoke out Jew haters than it used to be.

In the old days, they were pretty obvious -- the folks in love with Hitler, who simultaneously argue Jews control the world, the banks, the media and Hollywood, and who started the Second World War in order that ... uh ... Hitler could kill six million Jews in the Holocaust, which ... uh ... never really happened anyway. (Hey, I said they were Jew haters, I didn't say they were smart.)

Today, however, Jew hatred more often comes in the guise of a professed concern for human rights.

Except, of course, for Jews.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/lorrie_goldstein/2009/03/08...

I'm just wondering. It's OK for us to criticize Israel so long as we also criticize the Arab countries surrounding Israel. It's not OK to criticize Israel based on its own actions.

If I wish to oppose the Alberta Tar Oil-Sands Project, I guess I will have to include a comment about the Ayrabs controlling all that oil in the Middle East.

Unionist

Maysie, I question the posting of this article in the AR forum (even though I know you're just doing it as an editing favour to SD). What kind of useful discussion or information do you think it will generate - how far you can go in criticizing Israel before you become a Jew hater? Even the few defenders of Israel on babble don't go so far as to describe the rest of us as Jew haters, so I consider this to be a settled issue among progressive people. The fact that the CJC, BB, JDL, Jason Kenney, or Stephen Harper may think otherwise, doesn't make it a legitimate source of debate here.

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Hey Unionist.

I'm posting and modding from Ottawa after an intense weekend at the Jane Doe 2009 conference. My brain is tired. Where do you suggest I move this to? 

   

Unionist

Honestly, Maysie, Goldstein's article is frenzied, baiting, provocative, pro-Israel, and worst of all, a formula for suppressing anti-Israel protest as anti-Jewish. It is akin to [url=Jason">http://rabble.ca/babble/national-news/anti-zionism-anti-semitism-canadas... Kenney's repugnant speech[/url] which was the subject of a babble thread last month, in the "National News" forum. The difference is that while Kenney speaks on behalf of the Canadian government, Goldstein's article is just another piece of crap representing nothing.

If someone wants to do a "Part 2" to the above-mentioned thread - something about, "Growing attempts to suppress anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist protest in Canada", I suppose Goldstein's article would fit in. That could be in the Canadian Politics forum. All I know is that it doesn't belong here.

Sorry to impose this on you, Maysie. If you want to leave the thread open, and maybe Skinny Dipper wants to open a new one somewhere else, that's fine - until the discussion degenerates, of course. 

LeighT

"I consider this to be a settled issue among progressive people."

most definitely a settled issue.  I don't really know any people who would subscribe to the kind of views which Harper and others seem to want to project onto them. 

most peoples get along really well, better than well, when they're not harrassed into racial hatreds by media, snivelling politicians, and the corporate bosses who want to make money by stirring up old and new fights, using words and distorting truth, pulling triggers that they know different groups will react to.

all of us can see past that.  we just want to get along, have our jobs, our families, our friends, have some fun, and a clean world to live in. 

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

Well, my brain is tired and I'm not sure if any other mods are around. I'm going to the train station in less than an hour and will be offline for the rest of the day.

This thread doesn't belong in Canadian politics that's for sure. Maybe media? Okay, moving to media.

Skinny Dipper, if you want to PM me about any of this, please do so.

And in general, it would be great to hear from you at some point in the thread itself, re. your motivation in starting a discussion based on the idiotic ideas of Mr Goldstein. 

Unionist

Thank you, Maysie.

 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

As long as we're collecting pro-Zionist media propaganda, the U of T Varsity refers to Israeli Apartheid Week as [url=Hate">http://www.thevarsity.ca/article/18326][u]Hate Week[/url], without a trace of irony.

Skinny Dipper

Thank you for posting the text.  I was out getting my car serviced.  I also had my $1 breakfast at IKEA which totalled $3.14.  I added juice and some dessert thing.

I do appreciate many of the comments in the different forums in which the posters have criticized Israel but still actively support the concept of the Israeli state.

I have read blogposts and comments by different Blogging Tories who lean toward stopping immigration from Islamic/Arab countries because the people are likely to protest and refer to Israel as an apartheid state.  Hopefully, I can get a comment from someone who attended one or more Israel Apartheid Week events.  I might guess that a majority of the participants were not Muslim but Christian (religious or not [i.e. celebrates Christmas]).  I did post a comment on someone's blog that I should be deported back to Europe for sympathizing with IAW.  I just hope that I get deported either to the French Riviera or the island of Crete.

This was true in the 1990 US census.  About 75% of Arab-Americans in 1990 were Christians.  I might guess that Christians are still the majority of Arab-Americans according to the 2000 US census.

Skinny Dipper

I will add one more comment about Lorrie Goldstein.  Normally, I appreciate his columns in the Toronto Sun.  I just think he is using tactics in which if we wish to criticize Israel, we must also criticize other countries around the world.  I got the feeling that if I only criticize Israel, I must be a Jew-hater.  Personally, I do criticize other countries.  I just don't feel as if I have to include other countries when I wish to criticize Israel.

Stargazer

Lorrie Goldstein is to Jews what Barbara Ameil is to women.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Skinny Dipper wrote:
I will add one more comment about Lorrie Goldstein.  Normally, I appreciate his columns in the Toronto Sun.  I just think he is using tactics in which if we wish to criticize Israel, we must also criticize other countries around the world.  I got the feeling that if I only criticize Israel, I must be a Jew-hater.  Personally, I do criticize other countries.  I just don't feel as if I have to include other countries when I wish to criticize Israel.

Do you actually have an opinion on whether Goldstein is correct when he says that if you "only" criticize Israel you are a Jew-hater? I do not see anywhere in this thread (which you started, by posting Goldstein's hateful rant) where you actually disagree with his position. Only a statemenmt that you "normally appreciate" his columns.

All I see in your latest post is statements that imply that his comments don't apply to you, which really is not the issue here, is it?

Sven Sven's picture

I think it's stupid to say that if a person opposes Israel, then that person is a "Jew hater", no more so than someone who opposes Iran is a "Muslim hater".

An interesting subject to discuss would be: Of the people who do hate Jews, why do they hate Jews?  There has been a long, long history of antisemitism and it would be interesting to know why.

_______________________________________

Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

remind remind's picture

Well, for one thing, over the last 2000 years in Christiandom, they have been viewed as the murders of a fictional character. The masses were indoctrinated into hatred by the "christian" leaders, who were working from their motives.

Papal Bull

I'm sorry, remind, but fictional character? Jesus was certainly an existent character - though mightily exaggerated. Like Trudeau or Otto Von Bismarck.

/thread drift

Refuge Refuge's picture

Sorry to interupt this thread, for tech just wanted to see if I could repost the article in it's entirety without the links at the begining of it.

Skinny Dipper wrote:

Last Updated: 8th March 2009, 7:31am

Today being the official end for another year of Israeli Apartheid Week, let's address the absurd lament from its enthusiasts that you can't criticize Israel today without being labelled an anti-Semite.

Bull. First, let's dispense with "anti-Semite" -- a confusing term since Arabs can be Semites and many Jews aren't.

Instead, let's call it what it is -- "Jew hatred."

So, can people criticize Israel without being accused of Jew hatred? Of course.

Jews and non-Jews, living both in Israel and the Diaspora, criticize Israel all the time without being accused of Jew hatred.

Some of the strongest criticism can be found in the influential Israeli newspaper, Haaretz.

In fact, it always amuses me when Jew haters send me e-mails citing Jewish writers criticizing Israel -- their "logic" being that Israel is so evil, even Jews are attacking it.

Wrong.

First, unlike in much of the Arab/Muslim world, in Israel, criticizing the state isn't a one-way ticket to prison, torture or death.

Second, unlike in much of the Arab/Muslim world, Jewish religious leaders aren't known for issuing death threats against writers who offend them, which also tends to cut down on internal criticism.

By contrast, Jews criticize Israel all the time.

I think Israel's settlement of the West Bank, pursued for decades by both Labour and Likud governments, has been morally wrong, a strategic mistake and a major impediment to peace.

I believe the Israeli policy of bulldozing the family homes of terrorism suspects is an example of collective punishment, in effect, a war crime.

PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION

I don't like the Israeli system of proportional representation, which forces mainstream parties to make deals for power with small, extremist ones, whose policies are often racist to both Arabs and Jews.

None of that makes me a Jew hater.

As my Sun Media colleague and friend Michael Coren cleverly puts it, not all criticism of Israel indicates Jew hatred, but all Jew haters criticize Israel.

What's more, they criticize Israel exclusively and obsessively and never with any context.

The Jew hater never admits or mentions that if Israeli policies seem brutal to Canadians, part of the reason is that Israel resides in a much rougher neighbourhood -- the Mideast, not North America.

The Jew hater never admits or mentions that the Occupied Territories were occupied for a reason -- the repeated attempts of its Arab neighbours, starting on the day after Israel was created in 1948, to drive it into the sea.

The Jew hater condemns Israel for brutalities against Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims, while remaining silent about atrocities carried out against Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims by other Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims. That's because the Jew hater isn't motivated by love of anyone else, just hatred of Jews.

Taking his or her cue from Hamas, the Jew hater no longer even pretends to support a two-state solution in the Mideast -- an independent Palestine living in peace beside a secure Israel -- but today advocates a "one-state" solution, arguing the very idea of a Jewish state is racist.

To be sure, arguing in favour of a one-state solution isn't in itself evidence of Jew hatred.

It could be motivated by idealism, although, in my view, painfully naive.

The way to flush out the Jew haters, however, is to ask them whether they would make the same argument in favour of eliminating, say, the Islamic character of The Islamic Republic of Iran?

If the response is stunned silence or indignant doubletalk, that's a Jew hater.

Admittedly, it's harder to smoke out Jew haters than it used to be.

In the old days, they were pretty obvious -- the folks in love with Hitler, who simultaneously argue Jews control the world, the banks, the media and Hollywood, and who started the Second World War in order that ... uh ... Hitler could kill six million Jews in the Holocaust, which ... uh ... never really happened anyway. (Hey, I said they were Jew haters, I didn't say they were smart.)

Today, however, Jew hatred more often comes in the guise of a professed concern for human rights.

Except, of course, for Jews.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/lorrie_goldstein/2009/03/08/8671701-sun.html

I'm just wondering.  It's OK for us to criticize Israel so long as we also criticize the Arab countries surrounding Israel.  It's not OK to criticize Israel based on its own actions.

If I wish to oppose the Alberta Tar Oil-Sands Project, I guess I will have to include a comment about the Ayrabs controlling all that oil in the Middle East.

Yep: It worked!  Continue on.

Ward

if someone hates goldstien...i guess that makes them a jew hater. assuming he's a jew.

Sven Sven's picture

Ward wrote:
if someone hates goldstien...i guess that makes them a jew hater. assuming he's a jew.

No.  It would make them a hater of an individual who happens to be Jewish.  A "Jew hater" hates Jew generally.

_______________________________________

Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

remind remind's picture

Papal Bull wrote:

I'm sorry, remind, but fictional character? Jesus was certainly an existent character - though mightily exaggerated. Like Trudeau or Otto Von Bismarck.

Got some proof?

Papal Bull

remind wrote:
Papal Bull wrote:

I'm sorry, remind, but fictional character? Jesus was certainly an existent character - though mightily exaggerated. Like Trudeau or Otto Von Bismarck.

Got some proof?

 

Pliny?

oldgoat

I have a picture of him!

Ward

Sven wrote:

Ward wrote:
if someone hates goldstien...i guess that makes them a jew hater. assuming he's a jew.

No.  It would make them a hater of an individual who happens to be Jewish.  A "Jew hater" hates Jew generally.

_______________________________________

Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

So if one has a problem with an ideology or an agenda that happens to be supported by some jews....?

al-Qa'bong

...you'd be Joseph McCarthy?

Stargazer

I'm pretty sure Ward is being sarcastic.

Sven Sven's picture

Stargazer wrote:
I'm pretty sure Ward is being sarcastic.

Perhaps so.  But, I didn't detect any sarcasm in his questions.

_______________________________________

Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

Ward

i'm not sure either. it's a touchy subject though. personally, i tend to love people more than ideas.

Unionist

Isn't it time this utterly useless thread was closed, before someone says something they will really regret?

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

That's a really good idea. 

Topic locked