Huh? Is everyone in this "depiction" white?

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lagatta4
Huh? Is everyone in this "depiction" white?

https://placebell.ca/fr/planifiez-votre-visite

(Same "artist's depiction" of the site in English version).

There is a new hockey and concert arena in Montréal's northern neighbour Laval, and it is right next to the métro station at the northern end of the orange line. Perhaps I'm seeing funny, but everyone in the artist's/architect's depiction seems very white indeed. This does seem strange in 2017...

Unionist
Unionist
lagatta4

I don't get the equivalency. Those people actually are white. They could always bring in Amir Khadir or Will Prosper who belong to QS, and we can think of others who aren't white. The actual instigators of the fusion were Gabriel who is "Québécois de souche" as far as I know, and Sol who is half QdS and half Italian (and who speaks Italian and Spanish fluently). As you must recall, our first MNA was NOT of an ethnicity usually classified as "white".

There are people of other ethnicities in Laval, and nearby places in northern Montréal, Montréal-Nord for one.

Unionist

lagatta4 wrote:

I don't get the equivalency. Those people actually are white.

Before being shocked at Bell's advertising, I think we should ensure that we're on solid ground.

I linked to the cover page of Québec solidaire. Yes, those people are actually white, just as the people in the Bell ad are actually white. The question is: Why are you shocked at one, and not the other? Because QS "could have" included some people of colour??? Why didn't they???

Likewise with Projet Montréal. You can't elect people of colour if you make zero effort to recruit and nominate them.

The most disturbing thing about the QS welcome page is that it must mean something. Whom are they welcoming? I'd rather not think about what it means. Because then I'll be depressed, and it's cold outside, and enough is enough.

lagatta4

I don't think that is fair. Both QS and Projet Montréal made considerable efforts to stand candidates who are of colour or not "de souche". The reasons why some disadvantaged and/or "racialized" communities vote against their economic and social interests are complex and can't be solved only through good will. Will Prosper (of a movement in Montréal-nord akin to Black lives matter) was a QS candidate in Montréal-Nord, but he didn't win. There are many other examples. I think both these progressive parties are aware that this is a serious problem, but it can't be solved just through good wishes.

I was presenting an imaginary artist's depiction of a venue in Laval, where there certainly are people from many different backgrounds. It was a particularly egregious example for the present time.

I'm sure if you asked any representative of those parties (or of the Ndp here) they would most certainly agree that it is a problem.

What is YOUR solution?

Unionist

Lagatta: One thing at a time. Yes, Bell are assholes. Now:

Why does QS have no person of colour in the photo on its welcome page?

Your explanation, please. I'll give you mine after.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I was presenting an imaginary artist's depiction of a venue in Laval, where there certainly are people from many different backgrounds. It was a particularly egregious example for the present time.

I take your point.  Real-world organizations can make whatever excuses they wish for why they're so white, but a computer generated image, filled with 3-D rendered figures can't very well say "oh, we tried, but no 3-D rendered figures of colour applied for the job!"

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

​(Self-delete.  I think I misread what I was responding to there).

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Unionist wrote:

Lagatta: One thing at a time. Yes, Bell are assholes. Now:

Why does QS have no person of colour in the photo on its welcome page?

Your explanation, please. I'll give you mine after.

You sound way too confrontational about this.  If you're going to call QS out for something, it can be done without giving Lagatta4 the "third degree".   She responded to the point you made, she didn't avoid the issue. 

Just tell us what your theory is.  Lagatta does not deserve to be given the "answer the question!" treatment on racism.  And there's no reason to assume that QS would intentionally pander to the "pure laine" crowd-they've proven they're committed to an anti-oppression agenda.

NorthReport

Frequently we see the head honcho surrounded by people of diverse backgrounds and a picture says a 1,000 words, eh!

Often News Networks cover a GOP event and the one black or non-white person in the room gets star billing. 

I miss Maysie's comments here so thanks Unionist. Do you think it was just an oversight or was it 'screw polical correctness'?

 

lagatta4

Yes, QS could have dragged in Amir, Andrés Fontecilla, Will Prosper or many other not-perfectly-"White" members, but wouldn't that have been manipulative and exploitative of those comrades? Idem Projet Montréal and the NDP here. Projet Montréal very much regrets that certain excellent POC candidates, for example in Montréal-Nord, didn't pierce the Coderre wall. While this is not at all a matter of "people of colour", I'm thrilled that two PROGRESSIVE Italo- Québécoise women won in Villeray. There were often Italians, Greeks and others from the Mediterranean basin who won in the area, but they were reactionary "ethnic power brokers" who did nothing to help the people in their borough, whether the older immigrants from southern Europe and Lebanon or the newer ones from South Asia, Latin America, Haiti or elsewhere. Effing Mary Deros thought bicycle paths were something for "young people" - we are pretty much the same age, but she was born driving a car in a densely-populated neighbourhood. To say nothing of Annie Samson...

There are still no proper bicycle paths in Parc-Extension - I rode on one this autumn painted over potholes - and no safe link between Villeray and Parc-Ex. It is a terribly dangerous neighbourhood for pedestrians old and young, and terribly lacking in greenery.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Frequently we see the head honcho surrounded by people of diverse backgrounds and a picture says a 1,000 words, eh!

That's actually a bit of a conundrum.

If four people are shown in some stock photo of a boardroom, and they're all white, then we might say that they think only whiteys can work in an office.

If four people are shown in some stock photo of a boardroom, and one of them isn't white, then we might say that they just added some token person of colour to look inclusive.  It's the same conundrum as when "the POTUS" in some Hollywood movie is a white guy, and we roll our eyes because it's always a white guy, but if the "the POTUS" in some Hollywood movie is a black lesbian we roll our eyes because "as if!".

I'm surely not arguing against inclusivity.  But there's probably some minimum number of people you need in any group photo in order to meet all requirements -- the Asian, the POC, the Indigenous person, the person who uses a wheelchair, the non-binary person, the obese person, and so on.  Assuming we want to throw in a few white people for whatever reason, I'm thinking like maybe a minimum of 16?

Unionist

Ken Burch wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Lagatta: One thing at a time. Yes, Bell are assholes. Now:

Why does QS have no person of colour in the photo on its welcome page?

Your explanation, please. I'll give you mine after.

You sound way too confrontational about this.  If you're going to call QS out for something, it can be done without giving Lagatta4 the "third degree".   She responded to the point you made, she didn't avoid the issue. 

1. She hasn't responded in the slightest as to why QS would highlight a photo, on the intro to its official website, that has only white people in it. Where exactly is that response, please?

2. I'm not calling out QS. It's a photo.

3. My real point: Lagatta's discovery about the Bell ad is irrelevant. My example from QS was designed to highlight that point. We can't be outraged when Bell does it and make excuses when QS does it. Otherwise, we will be called out for our inconsistency.

4. Me? I think neither one merits outrage.

Hope that's clear, Ken.

lagatta4

that is ludicrous. the Bell image isn't a photo of an actual crowd; it is a computer-generated image.

WWWTT

We can't be outraged when Bell does it and make excuses when QS does it. Otherwise, we will be called out for our inconsistency.

Ya actually there's a term for this, it's called "bias". This term also describes these images. Just like the term "inconsistency" can be used to describe the images. The images are inconsistent with the demographics.

Now as far as calling bell "assholes", is this because of the image they produced? If it is, then the term "asshole" should also be used to describe any other group whom has produced a similar image.

6079_Smith_W

There are problems with both. In the case of organizations in which most or all in control are white, or men, or any dominant group it is a systemic problem. In the case of an image it is an artist or editor who really should know better.

Of course it isn't an absolute indicator in the case of organizations. But it is a big red flag that something is missing, and counter arguments about tokenism and "best candidates" don't really wash at all.

But I am more surprised by the image. First, because what were they thinking (and not thinking) and secondly because it is so easily corrected. And most importantly  if we want to change those more complex and important systemic imbalances images like this are the first line in saying who is welcome, and part of the community,  and who is not.

(edit)

Though when it comes to overthinking stuff like this, this case of white default takes the cake:

https://www.straight.com/blogra/bank-canada-whitewashes-asian-looking-wo...

 

Unionist

WWWTT wrote:

Now as far as calling bell "assholes", is this because of the image they produced?

No. I thought I made it clear that this image is largely irrelevant. They are assholes because of their corporate practices.

You want something that's relevant to the social problem of systemic discrimination and racism? Something that affects people in their real lives every single day - and which society utterly ignores? Read this (just a random example out of many):

A researcher has found that, despite having virtually identical resumes, white applicants received more callbacks than Black applicants.

Solutions?

Oh and by the way, this is the 30th anniversary of this landmark Supreme Court of Canada decision, Action Travail des Femmes v. Canadian National Railway:

Enforcing Employment Equity

This was the first time in Canadian history that a tribunal imposed an employment equity hiring program - and it went all the way to the Supreme Court.

Does anyone know whether CN has managed to comply with the percentages imposed by the tribunal over 35 years ago? Action Travail des Femmes is still in existence and active. I'm going to ask what happened with this file.

Or, we could start a petition to force Bell to show more sensitivity in their imagery.

Choices, choices...

 

WWWTT

You want something that's relevant to the social problem of systemic discrimination and racism? Something that affects people in their real lives every single day - and which society utterly ignores? Read this (just a random example out of many):

A researcher has found that, despite having virtually identical resumes, white applicants received more callbacks than Black applicants.

Wow I never knew there was such a thing as having a "white" or "black" name. Here's a name Jo Blo. Apparently it's a black name. How do I know? Because the letters are black. LOL! This has become a freekin joke and the article you listed above is an example of how the actual so called scientific analysis of systematic racism has become unsientific. Obviously what the writer meant was that people having names that appear to be from a region in Africa from an uneducated perspective, are less likely to get a job compared to someone having an English name that they are more likely to have heard of before. Is this racism? How about asking if this is insecurity? I'll build on this when I get the chance because my wife(who happens to be Chinese) is freekin mad at me for not washing the dishes!

6079_Smith_W

There have been numerous studies confirming that if you have a European name you are more likely to get and interview and be hired. Here is another one from 2011 which gets into some of the specifics around names. 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/how-an-ethnic...

WWWTT

Nope not according to the link you provided! The link states English, notEuropean. As well the article is 6 years old. Demographics has changed a little. Another unscientific discrepancy I always find in these studies is the lack of background of the person doing the hiring. This is nothing new for those from the Portuguese Italian and Greek communities (among countless others) in predominantly English speaking countries. An example would be Jo Perry, long time guitarist for Aerosmith. Jo’s family name was actually Perera (or some version of it,sorry if I have one or two letters wrong). A Portuguese name that was changed to Perry to sound more English when immigrated to the US. I have read similar examples where people from other European countries have modified their names when migrating to Argentina Brazil etc etc to sound more like a common name associated with the language spoken in that country. 

6079_Smith_W

I said "European" because this is one of numerous studies which reveal that bias.

As for being unclear about "black" and "white" names, I think people have a different image when they read Afolabi or Mwangi than when they read Rutherford or Huntington.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
How about asking if this is insecurity? I'll build on this when I get the chance because my wife(who happens to be Chinese) is freekin mad at me for not washing the dishes!

Do you feel that if your wife applied for a job using her given name, she would be more likely to get an interview, less likely to get an interview, or no difference because we're all past that sort of discrimination now?

WWWTT

My wife works as a stay at home mom.  Before we had children the only jobs she had was with other Chinese people and were like around minimum wage for that time(probably like 10$/hr).  So she can’t make an honest comparison because those jobs are a dime a dozen.  I’m going to make a semi educated guess and say that when the hourly rates are above 20$ then perhaps. Myself I’m Portuguese and have an Portuguese sounding name. I’m a plumber/pipefitter and have an impressive resume for my field. I have never had any issues. However many contractors are Italian Portuguese or have good work experience with people from these communities and I personally know of many reputable people in the trade. Now having said that, I know of someone whom is Chinese and they have expressed racism that they have experienced! They have also told me that plumbers who have Italian and Portuguese names never have a problem getting steady work. I even thought this was a little over the top coming from my Chinese friend because whenever I would talk with him he was always working? But I trust him and if he said he has experienced racism then I believe him!

lagatta4

Why doesn't your wife have a job? Is it because of ethnic discrimination, or lack of skills in French or English? I'm not saying that to be judgemental, but I am concerned. Women being dependent on men, whoever they are, is a very scary situation. Can she train or retrain to have a job of her own?

Yes, I'm a scary feminist. Housewifery and UNPAID LABOUR should be a relic of the 20th century or before. This has nothing to do with you personally - women should NOT be unpaid house slaves.

Like feminism 101.

And yes, in many building trades it has become an advantage to be Italian, and a bit later, Portuguese. I live in the historic Little Italy and there are also many Portuguese people here, as they worked with Italians on building sites and related trades; that is true through  Villeray up into Ahuntsic and parts of Laval, and over into  St-Léonard and Anjou.

I don't want you to think that what I say against housewifery as domestic slavery is a personal attack against you; nothing you have written here conveys any impression that you are a violent or oppressive spouse, on the contrary. It is simply that unpaid labour as a full-time occupation among adults simply shouldn't exist in this day and age.

6079_Smith_W

Very interesting (if tangential) point, lagatta. Reminds me of the fact we never paid a cent for babysitting in all the years our kids were of that age. It also reminds me of how much most family businesses or farms depend on unpaid work.

So shouldn't be? I absolutely agree when it comes to the position many women are forced into. In a practical sense there are also situations where the alternative is going to be unworkable or the only winner is the tax collector. But at very least it should raise a huge red flag about who has power, even (in fact, especially) in those family situations where we assume it is all benevolent.

This also reminds me of changes in what is considered elder abuse, and grounds for the government to step in and do something when someone is being taken advantage of.

 

WWWTT

Why doesn't your wife have a job? Is it because of ethnic discrimination, or lack of skills in French or English? I'm not saying that to be judgemental, but I am concerned. Women being dependent on men, whoever they are, is a very scary situation. Can she train or retrain to have a job of her own?

Ok now your questions are drifting away from this thread, but I'll briefly answer. Fist off there's nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom, but really I should say "stay at home parent". I am a stay at home parent, but only on and off. And who cares about money? If you have enough to get by and put away for your children and yourself, you're pretty much wasting your life away that would be better spent with your family. I have asked my wife to learn more about accounting in Canada so she can get certified here. And I mentioned that she should learn how to do taxes (she was an accountant in China). And I'm only guessing that accountants earn more than minimum wage? But I think I'm right. We have had this discussion around my house before. Fact is being a licensed plumber in UA local 46, and she an unskilled non union laborer(or similar wage scale) it's more efficient that if anyone has to work, it would be me, the higher paid. And I understand it's not easy for her (and for me) to raise 3 children under 5 years old and train for work skills. We have even discussed become partners in starting a small development company building houses. This way we can split profits 50/50, each go into lower tax brackets, and I can teach her important skills learning how to build houses. But c'mon lagatta4, my twins are freekin 2 years old still! We're not going to sacrifice family to go chase a fuckin $! Now I'm going to leave it at that because what I have mentioned already can literally result in pages and pages of discussion about increasing minimum wages, organized labor, the importance of stay at home parenting and the western emphasis on the bullshit pursuit of $$$$.

lagatta4

There are a lot of ways you could have described your current situation without resorting to an essentializing sexist term like "stay at home mom (or mum)" that, like "housewife" should remain in the 1950s and the sorry history of women's oppression. It is perfectly logical for one parent to be working less than the other for a time due to childcare duties (though if you live in Québec, remember that we do have the CPE system, based on protracted struggles by the women's and labour movements). As a result, we have an enviable rate of workforce participation among women of childbearing age.  It isn't a matter of chasing $$$ but of treasuring women's autonomy.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I stand with lagatta4 on this.  There's no excuse for anyone on the Left using 1950s terminology to describe women who devote themselves to unpaid domestic labour in their homes.  In a truly socialist society, such labour would be paid and then receive a pension when those women reached retirement age, and there would always be opportunities for those women, at a later date, to gain further education and training at little or no personal cost, and be given the chance to play additional roles in life if they wish to do so.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

As the Great Helmsman pointed out,"Women Hold Up Half The Sky".