Racism on babble?

babble is a white supremacist space (please look this term up, it's not all about nazis) that is part of a white supremacist society. the moderators are barely able to keep overt racist remarks out of the "anti-racist" forum. dealing with racism generally is a constant struggle. i, like all white people in canada, am racist and need to constantly be checking my head to see how the things that i say and do (or don't say and don't do) support that racism. the fact that i feel comfortable responding to your OP is part of the priviledge that i receive in a white supremacist, racist society. the way that other babblers listen to my posts (or dont), everything. we are litterally swimming in it so the second that we stop taking it for granted on something as free and chaotic as an online message board means that we have retired from an anti-racist struggle.

kind of unclear in how i worded it. the priviledge that comes with being white in a white supremacist society makes someone who is white by default an instrument of racism. i think that being racist is as much about what you don't do as what you do do. i think that you can do or not do something unconsciously too. so i am unconsciously racist purley because of the fact that i am white and raised in a white supremacist society. i even find myself being consciously racist when i, for instance, do not speak out about a family member's racist comments at a christmas party because to do so would bring on a shit load of uncomfort for me - that's the priviledge of choice that also accompanies my whiteness. there are many posts in this forum that can do a much better job at explaining than i can.

so in terms of the OP, because babble is dominated by white people and a product of a white supremacist society we can expect babble to be racist. we need to accept this and look for ways of challenging that, which i think that a lot of people (including the mods) do all the time.

Welcome to rabble, you should try reading something before you post. Just out of interest, how did you stumble across this forum?

I think the issue of racism on this board has (at least) two components -- one is the obvious trolling and the other is the sometimes patronizing and sometimes colonial attitude of some Western progressives/social democrats towards the Global South. This attitude lends itself to double standards even while the liberal-left is the West is falling to an even more insidious and racist resurgent right. I came across this recently on a Tar Sands presentation, where the writer quoted without batting an eye the likes of Thomas Friedman, while excoriating any country that even had oil (like Venezuela). Instead, nice Nordic countries were held up as exemplars while the author made lurid comments about dependence on Middle East oil and Russia as part of the problem.

However, rabble is not bad -- there are many here who don't put up with that crap and say so. And believe me, it's worse elsewhere -- just check Huffington Post which puts out a steady drumbeat of propaganda against the Left in Latin America. Indeed, its blogs hardly ever chew out American policies related to imperialism, even while it does attack the administration for other domestic failings.

Er...what?

Hi Viking77, welcome to babble.

Your first post isn't getting you started in the best way. This is a warning to read the babble policy, and maybe read a few threads in the anti-racism forum to get a sense of how racism is understood here on babble.

Maysie, this is a serious question that I'm hoping you'll answer.  My neighbours are divine.  I have a couple with kids on my floor.  I have a couple without kids (but a glorious cat) on the top floor of the house.  My favourite of all these people also happens to be the only POC in this house.  Except for his kids, of course.  When I moved in to my apartment, I was very, very shaky.  I had just returned from my cousin's death bed.  My husband was trying to ensnare me in bullshit peace bond applications and other legal mumbo jumbo. My parents were suffocating me with their fear and alarm.  

I know, from previous experience, how important neighbours are.  I don't think I am a racist but you tell me why, when I decided to get to know my neighbours, that I purposefully selected the darkest one.  IMHO, it was because the basis of friendship is a shared weakness.  And I understand what it's like to be a black gay man.  I know I sound delusional but I've never made so much sense in my entire life.

"In short, criticism is not invalid just because it comes from a different standpoint.

If you define a term like 'racism' so broadly that it encompasses almost everyone uncritically, don't be surprised when people resist being included!"

You're wasting your time.

Again, racism is one of those words that mean different things to different people.  When I freaked out that day, I followed the black guy's advice.  Move slowly, keep your hands out of your pockets, stay calm, let them approach you.  I'd hate to think how he came by that information but it worked for me, as demonstrated by the fact that I wasn't Tasered.  

And when two white police officers asked to come into my house (which by then looked like a tornado had ripped through it), I only allowed the female cop in.  Because we share a weakness and that is the basis of friendship.  And when I threw down a large box of matches making a semi-circle around me and then edgily lit a smoke maintaining eye contact the whole time, the female cop said something like "Okay, I'm interpreting that as a threat" and I confirmed that she was right. She negotiated a deal whereby she would feel all my clothes because I had brandished scissors.  I held up my arms over my head.  She felt me up and down (that doesn't sound right but you know what I mean) and together we calmly walked out of the apartment to the squad car.  It was excellent police work on her part.  So excellent that I sent in a compliment via the Vic PD website.  I sure hope they tell her how fantastic she is.  

I had called 911 and then hung up.  Got a message back immediately saying "This is the Victoria City Police.  We've received a 911 one-ring call from your home on [redacted address].  If there is a problem, call us back immediately at 911.  Otherwise, police will be attending."  

I ran over to the neighbours and screamed that the cops were coming, they were after me, it was Charles Manson and the White Album all over again, all in my insomniac and disordered mind.  The neighbour I spoke to was the black guy's wife.  She shared with me that she had been in this state before and that her husband had seen her in this state and what I needed to do was go home open the curtains, leave the door open slightly, and wait for help to arrive.  The whole exercise was a thing of beauty.  Two women (neighbour, cop) and one black man (neighbour).  Who knew I'm not only a racist but a sanist?

GMuffin, your sharing is deeply respected by me, thank you.

I love you, Remind.

I thought that whe dogma here.

If someone is white then you're automatically a racist.

lol sorry I find that to funny.  When I hear that it sounds like there is no "cure" for racisim and we must accept racisim cause being white means you can't change.

Bullshit.

I have a lot of white friends and their not racist.  Sorry I just don't buy that anyone who is white is automatically a racist crap.  If you're a self admitted racist Le T an will always be a racist because you're white well I feel sorry for you.

Oh you guys and ls crack me up sometimes.

Perhaps some distinctions might help this discussion. For example, in general, white people don't have to deal with issues of racial discrimination in housing, employment or even hailing a taxi. That's part of what people refer to as "white privilege". It doesn't matter what your personal views are, or how you conduct your life or perhaps even what other forms of oppression you may be facing based on gender or class for example. This privilege is accorded no matter what, is deeply ingrained and often operates invisibly. I don't think that makes all white people racist or white supremacists but it means that there are privileges associated with being white in this society.  True, those benefit are highly stratified (meaning that some white people benefit more than others).  Privilege can only exists in relation to oppression. 

There is material benefit to being white in North America whether we acknowledge it or not. But benefiting from other people's racist attitudes and behavior, isn't the same thing as "being racist" yourself. However, accepting these privileges without acknowledging that they may come at a cost to someone else, is part of internalized racism. 

No need for people to get so defensive when discussing this or to take it so personally. I agree with Beltov's suggestion that we think carefully about what we're going to say about the news of the day before we click "post comment". 

If racism 101, or indeed any ism for that matter, could be distilled down to 1 sentence this could be it...thank you Polunatic2.

However, acknowleging without underlaying action means little.

Viking - I think you're mixing me up with Oldgoat's comments about "staff meetings", "power structures" and such.

As far your "context" argument goes, I think you need to take colonialism into account in your analysis of other countries and how people of European background might or might not be treated. There are many cases where Europeans have been granted privileged treatment - from very overtly apartheid South Africa to India to Latin America. 

We seem to have made out fairly well here in North America since our arrival, at the expense of everyone else residing here beforehand. Historically as well, whenever we've gone abroad from our European places of origin, our so called disadvantages were generally overcome through violent suppression and subjugation. It continues to be the case today practically everywhere that white imperial domination treads. Sure, we're highly open to imposing ourselves and our culture upon others, just as we're highly open to using violence against others if they do not accept our benevolent and open nature. The only disadvantage I can think of that seems all too apparent...and it just might be peculiar to evolutionary traits resulting from the harshness of the Northern European climate, is skull thickness.

Le T rocks btw.

oldgoat quote "I'm not seeing where anyone got attacked."

Le T quote "Welcome to rabble, you should try reading something before you post. Just out of interest, how did you stumble across this forum?"

i view the comment ''you should try reading something before you post" as a moire personal attack on viking77, and not just his commentary...

Le T quote  "looks like another thread on babble racism derailed by white folk. what could that be a symptom of...?"

i view this as an unfriendly way to communicate that shuts down communication, rather quickly as it is a more general attack on anyone posting that doesn't agree with this particular posters viewpoint.  'derailed by white folk' is an assumption on this posters part who has no idea the race or colour of others posting here fwiw....

No Viking77, nothing about systemic oppression cheers me in any way.

Racism doesn't only make life difficult for people. Racism kills people and destroys communities and lives. Just as sexism kills people, classism kills people and homophobia kills people. If you need further examples of this I can provide them, but using google one can find many alternative information sources. As can some of the archived threads in the feminism forum, the anti-racism forum and the Aboriginal issues forum here in babble.

While I understand that for many people, and not just on babble, a discussion such as this is a cute fun wordy exercise in debating skills and practices, the truth is that Canada's racist oppressive history is alive.

And I said bloody murderous history AND PRESENT in Canada.

This is lived and enforced through official governmental and legal policy, governance and lived realities of Aboriginal people in Canada. These realities can be seen if one simply takes the time to observe. Hint: The Winter 2010 Olympics in Vancouver.

Oh, uh.. right.

No actually, yarg is wrong, he is still profitting from the oppression of people, as are you viking, and everyone else who is not FN's in Canada.

And "grateful"?

"grateful" to fucking whom?

First Nations? As that is whom everyone owes their standard of living to.

Thanks, Oldgoat.  I must say it feels weird to have my complete and utter freedom restored.  I can pee in the back yard and howl at the moon again.  Plus!!!  I got a DVD player for Crispix and I have seasons #1, #2 and #3 of Seinfeld.

ignoring 2 or 3 hundred years of history is an interesting approach... perhaps a better way is to make amends, which is what the canuck gov't has tried to do.... perhaps that is not good enough for some, but it has been good enough for many, including the first nation folks that have signed on to it...

Indigenous people found the place first and squatted on the land a lot longer than the seven year legal limit for taking possessing. Or whatever whitey's law says, they've satisfied the legal requirements for ownership by tens of millennia. And besides, bears and beavers were never coerced into signing bullshit treaties that amounted to theft and extortion and daylight robbery, and for which whitey has already admitted to dealing in bad faith in those days. Bears and beavers come with the flora and fauna and billions of dollars worth of oil and gas and other resources in the ground, deal or no deal.

I was under the impression that one of the policies of this subforum was discussion "from an anti-racist viewpoint." That doesn't seem to be in evidence with this derail which has quickly turned into an unproductive repetition of the tired denials and dismissals. 

I admire the posters who are engaged in this debate with those who a) will not even acknowledge their privilege and b) do not recognize that merely acknowledging their privilege is insufficient; rather it is an attempt to absolve them of further commitment to contesting injustices. 

I think the race issue is a rather important issue to highlight, but there are other forms of privileges that also should be recognized. I think one of them is our relative wealth that allows us to engage in these lengthy debates in our leisure time (or at least in jobs that allow us the almost risk-free opportunity to appropriate productive time with personal time, unlike many of the jobs of the people who produce our goods). This is a privilege that we should be very serious about as well.

These threads are so boring. How much time must be wasted on convincing people like sandstone, yarg and viking that what they are saying is not new, novel or interesting. It is the same boring shit that gets hauled out anytime white people are asked to consider their role in racism.

My response to viking, that one of you thought was a personal attack, was that maybe, just maybe, he should read something, anything (hey how about the 300 odd other threads that look exactley like this one!) before he saunters into a thread and totally derails.

Again boys (just guessing here), what you are saying is not new, creative or interesting. You are mouthing tired old arguments that have been dealt with by litterally thousands of pages of anti-racist theory that you are too lazy to read.

This shit sucks.

Le T, you have an incredible way of dodging the issue. Did it ever strike you that if an argument needs "litterally (sic) thousands of pages" to make then maybe it isn't a very good one?

You're right, I haven't read that many threads on here, does that influence the validity of the question in any way? You haven't actually tackled a single word I said in any of my argument, not a single one, and yet you've managed to ask how much time should be wasted dealing with them? Certainly none of yours has.

It was most certainly NOT a derail - the thread is specifically about racism, and the headline declared that the discussion should proceed along "anti-racist" lines, which is why I felt comfortable calling you out on your racism. The fact that you are a member of the race you are racist against makes no difference.

theboxman says that 'denials and dismissals' should not be countenanced - imagine if our legal system worked like that! you can't deny you're a racist - that makes you a racist. You can't refute or ask for evidence - that's evidence you're a racist.

I take very seriously what you said, fighting racism is important, checking yourself for prejudice and not laughing at racism jokes, but when you insist others share the belief that we are 'swimming' in racism and that we are all white supremacists, you have taken criticism to wholly new levels.

There is a major difference between acknowledging racism and repenting to the point of extirpating oneself from a territory. I would argue your examples derail the discourse from acknowledgement of real racial injustices by using extreme examples.

Further, the minute you talk about Aboriginal Canadian determination by stating what you want to happen you are already engaging in the power of white culture. You don't share their circumstances and even suggesting what should happen is a claim that you know better and also frames your statement in a very patriarchal way.

Seems to me that Viking## is conflating remedies to centuries of institutional racism with remedies for individuals on their own internalized racism. Anyone who's addressed racism seriously has invariably come across this sort of nonsense before.

Ciao.

I think j.m. beat you to it.

And the conflation of the structural with the individual continues. 

well, j.m. I did say that 'white, racist' Canada should just leave aboriginal people the h*ll alone. I guess that's racist too.

As for

"conflating remedies to centuries of institutional racism with remedies for individuals on their own internalized racism",

what are those remedies? Shelby Steele talks about those white people who seek collective Redemption through self-flagellation, and ultimately end up being more racist because they can't get free from the obsession with identity.

I just happen to believe that, although wrongs were done in the past, and some people got the upper hand over others, that it's human beings as a whole who are irredeemably aggressive, imperialistic and violent, but that through a combination of good luck, hardship and smart judgment, we have evolved to a point where we treat individuals 'according to the content of their character' and not on the basis of skin colour or sexual orientation. I'm sorry if this sounds backward, but that is how I live my life and I'm sticking to it.

SparkyOne, your comment doesn't engage with the discussion. This is the sort of thoughtless contribution that one expects from CBC.ca or G and M (I stopped engaging both of them because of the heavy moderation, the lack of reader's engagement with the content, and my belief that voting for comments is not a constructive form of dialogue to build consensus). No one suggested anything remotely close to banning people from Babble for being white, and yet you post this unfounded, inflammatory response.

Perhaps I don't know Babble well enough but I migrated here on the belief these boards were more conducive to engaged discussions.

It's a bit telling sometimes the lengths folks will go to deny the privilege of white folk in canada.  Where does it come from?  Some type of complex?  It's a pretty simplistic FACT.  I'm no scholar or google-geek nor wiki-warrior but I have 2 eyes and ears and a brain, perhaps you might want to use them sometime.  I don't get things all the time and people call me on it.  Listen and learn, it can free you.

They normally are j.m. but I think there's a full moon tonight, must be why I'm posting.  Don't be discouraged by this thread.  I mostly read a lot and I've enjoyed your contributions, especially our privilege of even having these discussions. 

"It's a bit telling sometimes the lengths folks will go to deny the privilege of white folk in canada."

and who would deny it, RevolutionPlease? It is true, without doubt.

The only thing to deny is that there's anything scandalous about that. Black people are privileged in, say, Nigeria. A country set up by a certain group of people will naturally 'privilege' that group, it's not racist, it's just incidental. The question is, what to do about it? The fact is, in Canada, as a good example of a liberal, Western, Capitalist Democracy, members of other cultures can do particularly well. Some don't. Many white people don't. An Indian from Punjab, say, who becomes wealthy and successful in Canada is not evidence of 'racism', whereas one who falls by the wayside somehow is?

The answer? create a society that treats people as individuals, not as group members, and makes emends for past wrongs by allowing openness and encourage to everyone. Idealistic? probably.

 so -

how is generalising about your own race in a negative way  NOT racism??

A "safe space" for Whites to talk about race is unsafe for people of colour.

The Great White Elephant: A Reflection on Racial Privilege for White Anti-Racists

Racism 101

How not to be Insane When Accused of Racism (A Guide For White People)

Hating Whitey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc

When anti-racists talk about white privilege, they are not analysing race. They are analysing privilege.

This thread and most of the comments are insulting to First Nations people (why don't we just forget? Or move on, after all, it was over 200 years ago).

Bullshit.

You think reserves were a great idea? Hauling FN people to live on the worst remote land after all of the other land was stolen? Asking them to "integrate"? WTF?

And calling Le T racist is like calling Maysie racist.

Then the stupid "so all whites should be banned?".

This thread is filled with apologists for racism.

This is what your privilege allows.

This is a good example of how white supremacist ideology is in place to support the overall racist structure of Canadian/American society.  This statement assumes that the resources, power and privilege that exists for the benefit of the dominant culture are a result of creation and conflict, and is therefore just.  However, I would argue that many of my ancestors fought and died to try to prevent the European people from taking our land and resources and rendering us powerless, and many more died as a result of that power and control.  The 'freedom' that was created was the freedom to steal land and resources from other sovereign peoples and to weaken them through genocidal policies.

Supremacy also tends to highlight exceptions as overall truth, while completely remaining oblivious to the fact that capitalism can only survive by pitting groups of people against each other, where representative success is pedestaled as just another excuse.

ps thanks for your response j.m.

to paraphrase once again

"priviledged? - your racist..."

interesting conclusion...

I've avoided contributing further to this thread for reasons of the time and energy spent composing a carefully worded reasonable response seems to be not worth the payoff. I'm sure the rocking allies who have posted, and Stargazer and Makwa, understand what I mean.

And Stargazer I've considered closing this thread since it first went awry.

I'm still keeping it open, since i feel there may be some value to lurkers and others who aren't joining in but are reading it. As excruciating as it can be at times.

Viking, what I will say to you is that lacking information is never a problem. The true stories of Aboriginal people in Canada are not easily accessible to most Canadians. And the "official" stories, taught in Canadian schools and to all incoming immigrants, is one of whitewashing of atrocities both past and present. However, in this age of the interwebs, such information is not as hard to come by as it was in years gone by.

I learned nothing of critical anti-oppression understanding of Canada through official curriculum. I encourage you, and anyone reading this, if you feel you don't have enough information, to take the time to learn more. I continue to learn more everyday, our learnings are never over.

these threads are interesting from the point of view it seems everyone has a special slant to offer, or axe to grind depending on how one views it... it's also apparent some folks neither listen or feel the need to communicate in any truly open way... lots of judgment or questioning with built in potholes for others to fall into, but not a lot of sincere communication...the comments where folks say, and i'm paraphrasing in a simplified manner :  'this thread sucks' or 'i'm not wasting my time here anymore' are also very informative for what they say of the person saying them as much as they may think it reflects on the others they think they are addressing... it seems there's also lots of assumption on the part of posters here at babble regarding other posters, to the point where it appears like a mutual admiration society...i suppose that is to be expected to some extent... indeed keeping an open mind will allow for ongoing learning.... 

I don't understand why as a foreigner the first solution you would pick would be for most Canadians to move. After all the only way to leave the FN's alone would be to leave their territories.  I am really glad for you that all historic and current injustices were wiped clean when you entered the country and you bear no responsibility for the past or current state of affairs.  I am heartened that you have come to Canada to extend your charitable helping hand to the locals, just as you did to the poor in Africa.   It must be tough carrying that Burden.

stargazer, folks are free to agree or diagree with others here.. folks are also free to comment, read, 'or not' any of the threads here as well... young kids find things boring sometimes too... sometimes its a reflection on them, and sometimes it's not...regarding your question "So, you are basically saying that if we don't agree with your definition of racism then we're closed minded?" no that is not what i am saying.. i never gave a definition of racism, so it would be difficult for you to come to a conclusion like this... regardless, i am glad you are getting some laughs, while also saying this thread is damned boring and extremely taxing... interesting mix of moods, i must say!!

Out of the five links, four of them are from the intimately valid perspectives of racialized people. Of those four, by your estimation, only one passes the validity test, with the other three ranging from invalid, stupid and simplistic. Interestingly enough though, your excellent rating was reserved for the fifth link, the one I purposefully placed at the bottom of the list, which was from a white guy, who merits at the top of your class and all. The others, in merely living it every day, must measure up to your standard of validity to be heard. This encapsulates where you are with anti-racism...and in this thread for that matter, when similar affected voices continue to be invalidated by you and others.

For clarification, the fabulous, smart and delightful resistance is a woman of colour blogger, and the link to her blog called resist racism from Slumberjack's post at #75 is link #4. The last link, the YouTube link, is to a lecture by Tim Wise, anti-racist educator and all-around groovy white guy.

.

What? We're at 99 posts? Time to close already? Awwwww.