Talking about race with white people

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6079_Smith_W

Interesting that the clip is only of the angry reaction.

Clearly there was a disconnect between them and the reporters. One might think from our perspective those reporters were just doing their job. On the other hand asking if Trudeau is any better than Harper in response to a child going missing is insulting, and one can make a connection between every tragedy that has happened to Indigenous people and the policies of our government. She had every right to get angry and tell it how it is, even if some people are sure to get pissy about it.

.

 

Paladin1

You're saying she had every right to get angry but you don't hear the reason why she was getting angry.  What I get from the short clip is that the media seem surprised and confused at their reaction. After the white woman is told to shut up and leave the male reporter seems to try and salvage the question, asking a comparason between Trudeau and Harper but the two ladies on stage aren't answering. 

The knife hand gesture seemed out of place to me too.

I'll try and dig up a longer clip.

WWWTT

@Mr Maqoo (and anyone else interested) The subject about the concept of zero is very complex and mind boggling for me. So this is the way I look at it. In order to fully understand something you must use it in a practical manner or. Since the Mayans actually applied their mathematics to good use, they devised an ingenious calendar. For me since it's not clear how Indian mathematicians used the concept of zero for practical purposes, I do not believe that they fully understand the concept of zero. Either way, the European Roman numeral system was scraped long time ago And just as another side note, the Gregorian calendar didn't take shape until almost 100 yrs after the start of the colonization of the new word. This supports theories of plagiarism.

6079_Smith_W

I'm sure they thought the questions were fair, but I don't exactly see it as salvaging. Personally, I can see why that question would make it worse. Let's deal with the murdered women and children crisis by asking them which white leader they think is better.

(edit)

What CTV and Global left out of their coverage, because they thought the big story was Indigenous people getting mad at white reporters:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/parliament-hill-indigenous-ceremony...

Paladin1

Thanks for finding that Smith. There's still no longer video but CBC indicates Mrs Wabano-Iahtail became upset about the reporter seeminging suggesting the prime minister is not directly responsible for a youths death in Northern Ontario. She is saying you can't speak to us like that. Does she mean the reporter can't suggest the prime minister is not directly guilty of the youths death? 

One of Trudeaus platforms was indigenous people and the issues surrounding them. Would you say asking for a comparason to Harper would be a fair question to put forward?  If the reporter was being a Trudeau fangirl I can see how that would have upset the people on stage.

6079_Smith_W

I can't speak for them, but I think given that those communities still have people being murdered, still don't have clean water, and are still seeing promises broken,  a question about which white government is less bad is really not getting what is important.

Especially after they have just had people arrested for trying to take part in Canada Day celebrations on land which is not under treaty, and is still theirs, not Canada's.

It might seem like a fair line of questioning, until you consider how ignorant it is.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1157283&playlistId=1.3481577&b...

 

Awkward exchange at a press conference. I watched this and I couldn't tell if the white woman was being disrespectful to the FN women or not.  Personally it seems like the FN women are ramping themselves up on purpose and looking for a fight. Am I incorrect in my observation?

Yes you are totally off the wall with that suggestion. That asshole reporter asked a question and when the Elder was answering she didn't like the answer so she shouted, "how is that his fault?"  It was followed by a leading question designed to get the answer that in some small way Trudeau was better than Harper. Sort of like asking a slave whether his new Master is "better" because he beats his slaves less often than the last Master. After all he can't be "faulted" for the system can he?

This was a press converence dealing with what is seen as systemic multi-generational genocide by the people who are enduring it. Instead of talking about that the state media's reporter wanted to compare relative merits of PM's and in a snarky tone implied Trudeau was above reproach.

A perfect example of how hard it is for Indigenous people to get their message out in the face of unrelenting colonialism.  

6079_Smith_W

See that's the thing. All those reporters will swear up and down they weren't out of line and just doing their job, even though some of them published a gotcha piece that had nothing to do with the story, and focused on the protesters telling them off. They were supposed to be the professionals in the room; and they weren't.

Then a whole bunch of other white people see a "racist" assault on press freedom by people acting like Sean Spicer, not realizing what had actually happened to lead up to those few minutes.

Because ignorant white people reinforce these attitudes and twist the truth for other ignorant white people.

6079_Smith_W

City of Saskatoon bus ad:

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Who's that guy???

If he's responsible for racism, let's go kick his ass.

WWWTT

@kropotkin 1951 Looks like all that other stuff I was posting about colonialism has come back full circle and is relevant hey? White corporate liberal media reporter tries to use the desperate hopelessness of a people's to promote their corporate masters. Lot of feelings to express after seeing that clip. But not surprise. 500 and some extra years and basically little to no change. Perhaps communist revolution would work some wonders! What's the worst that can happen?

WWWTT

I don't understand why natives would want to set up a tent around parliament??? Is this a protest?

6079_Smith_W

WWWTT wrote:

Perhaps communist revolution would work some wonders! What's the worst that can happen?

Now if I was a bad boy I would post this one over at the hall of fame.

voice of the damned

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Who's that guy???

If he's responsible for racism, let's go kick his ass.

Well, I think the message is something like "I do my part to keep the city clean by not littering". It's not saying that the person making the statement is the one guy responsible for pollution, just that he's doing his part to combat the problem, and we should follow his example.

That being said, when it comes to a more abstract concept like "privilege", I'm not sure if simply telling people that they possess it and should do something about it is going to be all that effective. The ad might do better to provide a concrete example of how the speaker benefits from having white skin, eg. "I stole a bike and got off with a warning; my black neighbour did jail time."

But of course, that entails openly criticizing certain public institutions(in this case, the courts), so would probably generate a lot more controversy than just vague statements about privilege.

6079_Smith_W

I don't know. I wouldn't call inviting people to consider that they have racist attitudes a vague exercise at all.

I've found the reaction tends to be anything but.

WWWTT

I like that picture add actually. It suits this topic well. Guess only time will tell if it works would be the most I can say more

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I don't know. I wouldn't call inviting people to consider that they have racist attitudes a vague exercise at all.

I've found the reaction tends to be anything but.

Well, "That's a load of crap, I'm not racist at all" certainly isn't a vague reaction. I'm not sure it's a really constructive one to be eliciting, though. 

But if you've heard people say stuff like "You know, that's right, I do get a lot of privilege because of my skin colour", I will sincerely take your word on that. My own best prediction, though, would be that such a campaign works best when it includes concrete examples of white privilege. 

 

WWWTT

@voice of the dammed 

hi brother. Why would you have to include examples? Is it really that difficult for say a half dozen different examples to instantly pop in someone's head after seeing such a billboard?  Keeping in mind that this is only a billboard type add for passerby to glance at best. Upon further consideration this could be directed towards people who already harbour such sincere anti racist sentiments to encourage them to do more? Just a thought. 

6079_Smith_W

@ VOTD

I do get what you are saying. On the other hand, it is a bus ad, not an editorial. And honestly I think anyone who needs to be taken by the hand and walked through it might not want to see it, especially in a place like this with a legacy of someone being driven out of town by the cops and left to freeze to death.

And someone else being killed last fall, and the response being a newspaper article all about farmers afraid of having to deal with thieves.

Besides, there's a website link on that ad for those who honestly do need to be told:

https://www.saskatoon.ca/community-culture-heritage/cultural-diversity/a...

Recognizing that systemic discrimination has an effect on all of us might seem vague, until you get that it is in itself a very important realization.

Paladin1

[quote=kropotkin1951

Yes you are totally off the wall with that suggestion. That asshole reporter asked a question and when the Elder was answering she didn't like the answer so she shouted, "how is that his fault?"  It was followed by a leading question designed to get the answer that in some small way Trudeau was better than Harper. Sort of like asking a slave whether his new Master is "better" because he beats his slaves less often than the last Master. After all he can't be "faulted" for the system can he?

I'm about 75%-80% convinced you're right. I can see how the reporter could very well be rude or disrespectful. Sounds like they're a Trudeau apologist.

Quote:
A perfect example of how hard it is for Indigenous people to get their message out in the face of unrelenting colonialism.  

So loaded question here. What do we do about it? Does Canada hand the country over to FN people to govern? Should we make a new tax and pay FN people rent? Should non-FN people move to the US?

Not being a smart ass here I'm really curious what we're supposed to do about settlers invading and taking over 200 years ago? I don't think many will argue with the fact FN got really shitty treatment by Canada.

I've asked previously what's the next step after recognizing privilage. So what's the next step for FN and Canada?

Paladin1

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Who's that guy???

If he's responsible for racism, let's go kick his ass.

We should charge him with racisim and let the human-rights tribunal come up with a punishment.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

In the end he's probably some Polish guy who posed for a stock photograph.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Perhaps communist revolution would work some wonders! What's the worst that can happen?

Now if I was a bad boy I would post this one over at the hall of fame.

(digression follows below)

The purge trials, the Pact, the Gulag and the Cultural Revolution.

That's what can happen(and probably will happen) in a "large-C" Communist revolution.  Anytime you have a rigid conspiratorial-vanguardist model that obsesses on silencing all dissent, that not only can happen but probably will.  Those methods are never needed, but there is no way of stopping them under a large-C Communist state in which the party can never be held accountable and the state never "withers away".

A "small-c" communist revolution(of the sort that Rosa Luxemburg called for, of the sort the Port Huron Statement suggested, of the sort the Krondstadt rebels fought and died to defend, of the sort the students and workers in France were on the verge of achieving before the PCF betrayed them and saved DeGaulle, of the sort that Allende and Popular Unity lived and died for in Chile, ot the sort the people and the army achieved together in Portugal, of the sort the Sandinistas were in the process of achieving when the U.S. backed terrorist armies and the economic blockade forced the Nicaraguan people to choose between voting to lose their dignity or voting to die-would most likely not have anything close to that happen.

WWWTT

Ya actually I was kind of joking/not that serious when I made that comment.  There's also socialist revolution such as in Portugal where workers rights and the advancement of socialism is in their charter. I would lean more in this direction if an actual revolution was necessary 

quizzical

Indspire on Global tonight has been on point!!!

too bad more weren't watching it.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Ya actually I was kind of joking/not that serious when I made that comment.  There's also socialist revolution such as in Portugal where workers rights and the advancement of socialism is in their charter. I would lean more in this direction if an actual revolution was necessary 

I added Portugal to the list, and thanks for clarifying.

Back to the discussion on race.

6079_Smith_W
WWWTT

Thanks for the link Smith! I have to agree that open discussion has more positive effects in right direction than what my be argued for the opposite.  Kudos for the posters participating in this thread! I actually first thought this thread was kind of ironic in how it was titled, but my view has changed, and changing views is definitely the goal

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
One particular billboard shows a photo of a man who appears to be white

Welcome to 2017.  He "appears to be white".  LOL!  Someone, take a moment and ask him what he identifies as!  How do we know he's not Polynesian?

But why did they just assume "their" gender like that???  Get your shit together, CBC!

WWWTT

Ya that "appears to be white" made me lol too! Thank you captain obvious CBC news writers. I think they meant to say that he appeared to be a white European. I don't think the whole "appear" adverb thing works with vague adjectives describing people.

6079_Smith_W

I think it is just good reporting. Lots of people appear to be white who are not.

The more important point is that everyone who did get jumpy about it did so on the assumption that he was white. For that reason too it makes good sense to point  that out.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Lots of people appear to be white who are not.

What up, my homies??

As I said, welcome to 2017.

Quote:
I think it is just good reporting.

Lots of people who appear to be male who are not.

Was it the beard??

6079_Smith_W

Like I said, all the negative reactions I read came down to people thinking it was an unfair slur against white people.  Given that, it makes good sense to point out what might seem obvious.

Speaking of obvious, that one didn't even cross my mind. Like I said, what seemed more obvious to me is wondering why people were even questioning it in a province where an article about an Indigenous boy being shot dead winds up being all about about white people beign afraid of having their houses broken into.

Then again, that kind of explains the backlash and the distraction perfectly.

 

 

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I'm sure my reaction qualifies as a "negative" one, but it's not because I think there was any "slur" against my white brethren.

It's because he's pretty obviously white.  I mean, just look. 

We need to allow for the fact that he might be a proud black man, now??

#WelcomeTo2017

6079_Smith_W

Could be Metis, Magoo, or a number of other things. That is why CBC was right to say "appeared to be". I mean I know you aren't being serious, but are you serious?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Having looked at the picture of him, yes, serious.

Plus, who in 2017 would billboard a picture of a Metis man (er... person) taking ownership of "their" racism?  Or I guess what I really mean is "why??".  Why would the people bankrolling these ads just suddenly confuse everything like that?

Of course he's white.  And he's a he.  Jeebus.

6079_Smith_W

Because the editor of the article didn't know  for sure, and it was a significant part of the story. Hence the qualifier.

You can bet if they hadn't some  pedant would be taking us off on this tangent and arguing the case from the other side. At least this way they have correctly covered the bases. Can't argue with that.

Though I am sure some will try. Because it is what is really important about this campaign.

 

 

WWWTT

Sorry Smith I disagree with you and side with Magoo on how that article was written by th CBC. The writer of the article could have easily ignored trying to identify the color/complexion of the person pictured in the billboard. But instead, in my opinion, the writer was trying to sound like they were indifferent in a manner as to imply some kind of moral higher ground. This gave me a good chuckle! But at first I didn't want to emphasize this so as not to take away from the importance of the benefit of having this discussion.

6079_Smith_W

You might disagree, but it actually was important for them to phrase it the way they did. I explained why.

Media shouldn't identify him as white unless it has been verified.  But it doesn't matter whether he is, or identifies as something else, because the significant part of the story is that he appeared to be white; that is what people based their objection on. And it was relevant to the story for CBC to say so.

 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

You might disagree, but it actually was important for them to phrase it the way they did. I explained why.

Media shouldn't identify him as white unless it has been verified.  But it doesn't matter whether he is, or identifies as something else, because the significant part of the story is that he appeared to be white; that is what people based their objection on. And it was relevant to the story for them to say so.

They should have just left the visuals and us to draw our own conclusions just like in real life. 

6079_Smith_W

Except the story is about the city defending the ad against people assuming it is directed against white people. There are no comments on the story itself, but there are plenty on CBC Sask's Facebook page.

Why do some think that? Because the ad contains someone who appears to be a white person. The quotes in the story refer to white privilege and white racism. That is the story, and that is why they point it out explicitly, rather than just leaving us to guess at what the city is defending itself from.

Sorry, but it is a news story. And the idea is to explain what is going on.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Councillor Kristyn Wong-Tam withdrawing ‘intersectional’ motion that clashed with Black activists

Quote:
A Toronto councillor is withdrawing a motion asking the council to establish an “Intersectional Awareness Week” after it ran afoul of detractors from unexpected quarters.

“I will be withdrawing the motion,” said Kristyn Wong-Tam, who also released a statement Wednesday morning, barely five days after the motion was launched. “I was hoping…that it was the beginning of a powerful movement to raise awareness that we are not single-issue people.”

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I guess this is one of the article about alt-right haircuts?

Here's an article in CBC about the "Proud Boys" -- proud (evidently), young (evidently) and white (not "appears white", but WHITE, evidently) men (evidently) -- who recently disrupted a group of indigenous activists (and it turns out, to everyone's shock, that a few of them chose the military for a career!).

Anyway, funny how two of the three pictured seem to go to the same barber as Macklemore.  Maybe there's something to this cut.

ed'd to add:  I guess the haircut is voluntary.  But check out the rest of this (and visit the original post if this seems absurd):

Quote:
How do you become a Proud Boy?

According to Sommer, who has sifted through Proud Boys social media pages, there are four steps, or "degrees," to becoming a Proud Boy. 

  1. Declare yourself a Proud Boy. 
  2. Take a beating from other Proud Boys while naming five breakfast cereals. "This seems bizarre, but the theory behind it sort of prepares you to think on your feet and think when your adrenalin is pumping," Sommer said.
  3. Get a Proud Boys tattoo.
  4. Get into a physical fight with a left-wing protester. 

They also take something of a vow of self-celibacy. 

"You have to subscribe to McInnis's philosophy of  #NoWanks, which means you can only masturbate once a month," Sommer said.

"He belives that too-frequent masturbation or pornography has sort of sapped the will of the modern man."

So... self identify, get beat up, get a tattoo, beat someone up, don't rub one out ("save it for the game").

quizzical

so they were having Crenshaw the person who coined  the word and who beyond approved of the initiative to the point she was coming for the launch.

but yet  BLM TO decided to take Crenshaw's voice and approval and twist it into what they wanted it twisted to not what the truth of it is. how fkn disrespectful imv. mildly put. i could and may say more.

Wong-Tam....says Crenshaw, whom she reached out to after the initial motion, was supportive of her proposal and described it as incredibly exciting news. The hope was that city council could partner with local universities to bring Crenshaw to Toronto to launch the initiative, she said.

6079_Smith_W

Think of how hard life must be if you’re such a fucking snowflake that your existence is dependent on perpetual genuflection. That, despite ruling and running everything, you still need both the big piece of chicken and acknowledgement that tonight’s delicious chicken dinner was made possible by your generous Whiteness. That if the world doesn’t get on its knees every 57 seconds to thank you for being so amazingly White and male that you’ll dissolve like cotton candy on a Black-ass tongue.

http://verysmartbrothas.com/boston-globe-publishing-in-defense-of-the-wh...

Boze

In a conversation recently, someone informed me about a concept called "lateral violence." I was not familiar with it, so I did some googling. Here's how one website defined the concept:

http://nursing.advanceweb.com/Regional-Articles/Features/Horizontal-Viol...

Quote:
Horizontal violence is a form of consistent and aggressive behavior between coworkers at the same level of authority, which is done to "control, diminish, or devalue a peer."

Any action, verbal or nonverbal, from one group member directed toward another staff member who in turn has a feeling of humiliation is considered horizontal violence. In nursing, verbal abuse is the most common form of horizontal violence. Verbal abuse, yelling, rumors, name-calling, displacement, and belittling others are all examples of overt behaviors.

Horizontal violence is categorized as overt and covert. Covert behaviors may be exhibited as isolation, refusal to help or work with a staff member, making fun of or mocking, changing assignments, and non-verbal innuendos such as eye rolling and sighing.

So then I thought - well, gee, that might explain the "misogynoir" incident, might it not? If "any action, verbal or nonverbal, from one group member directed toward another staff member who in turn has a feeling of humiliation is considered horizontal violence," that seems exceedingly broad. That's concept-creep. Eye-rolling isn't violence. But according to that website (and I found many others like it), if the faculty member who was speaking felt humiliated by Parada leaving the meeting while she was speaking, it could be considered "violence!" Isn't progressivism GREAT?

I roll my eyes at people all the time. I sigh a lot, too. I think that if you're annoying me or being stupid, you deserve to know it from my body language. Who knew that all this time I was engaged in violence?

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

All those things mentioned are shitty things that we should work to get rid of.

But I'm not convinced that promoting them all to "violence" in the hope that people will take them more seriously is a good idea.

On the one hand, calling "sighing" a form of violence only invites eye rolling -- evidently ANOTHER form of violence.

It also diminishes the word "violence".  When I read that someone was a victim of violence, I don't want to have to wonder "who sighed???"

Rev Pesky

6079_Smith_W wrote:

City of Saskatoon bus ad:

I have no problem with acknowledging my own racism, but what am I supposed to do about the 'privilege'? If someone treats me with more respect because they see me as 'white' am I suppposed to tell them not to do that? How am I even supposed to know whether my 'whiteness' has affected someone else's attitude towards me?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Rev Pesky wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

City of Saskatoon bus ad:

I have no problem with acknowledging my own racism, but what am I supposed to do about the 'privilege'? If someone treats me with more respect because they see me as 'white' am I suppposed to tell them not to do that? How am I even supposed to know whether my 'whiteness' has affected someone else's attitude towards me?

Start with the litle things like making sure that when that cashier goes to serve you that you point out the indigenous woman they ignored when they turned to you.

6079_Smith_W

There is another ad in the series which touches on a similar scenario, only in a more direct way. An image of a non-white woman with the caption "I am just waiting for you to leave the store".

That's the thing about our privilege. You don't see that you aren't being followed around by security, or carded by cops because it isn't happening to us.

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