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Talking about race with white people

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swallow
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Joined: May 16 2002

Pondering wrote:

New York and Alan are both insufferable intellectual snobs. Racism is real. Insisting that all claims of racism be humoured even when they are wrong is self-defeating. It's proof that PoCs see racism where there is none.

Please read the stickies in this forum, if you want to understand why this (and much else in your post) is highly problematic from an anti-racist standpoint. 


Paladin1
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Joined: Jan 14 2013

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I don't wish getting murdered by the cops on anyone, because that is by far the greater evil. But I wonder if this fucking idiot thief (currently making the FB rounds as "white privilege dance") appreciates that she was probably saved only by the colour of her skin.

http://abc7.com/news/suspected-car-thief-dances-during-dtla-police-chase...

 

I think you're 100% right .

What can we do to change that? Is the priority to convince white people that this difference is very much true and regularly happens?

 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

No one should have to worry about being murdered by cops in the street. I'd say that is the priority.

Maybe it was seeing one too many instances of some people getting turned into a grease spot, while the white people almost invariably get the kid glove treatment to make sure they don't bonk their heads on the way in to the cop car.

But the fact that some stupid idiots don't seem to get just how lucky we are, even to the point of flaunting it, is kind of galling.


Paladin1
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Joined: Jan 14 2013

6079_Smith_W wrote:

But the fact that some stupid idiots don't seem to get just how lucky we are, even to the point of flaunting it, is kind of galling.

In some cases I think it could be the delivery or atmosphere when someone asks questions. I've tried to get involved in this issue before elsewhere and the reaction was usually "you're a white male! STFU because you don't even KNOW".

Automatically I can see a reaction to that. "There's your white privilage thinking a POC needs to address you in a certain way!". Quite true but communication wise it's an excellent way to shut people from listening with your first sentence.

I experienced that a little bit here but I had a lot of people give me the benefit of the doubt and write very patient and helpful replies. I've even had a number of people send me PMs to further try and explain the terms and how they apply to me.   Before I started chatting here I had no idea what white privilage was to say the least. Looking back now I think I felt a lot of racisim people were talking about was exaggerated. this place really opened my eyes.

If the question was how to talk to white people about race (and the goal was to show white people that a black woman would most likely been shot in the aformentioned video) maybe an answer is education and a constructive environment?


Pondering
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Joined: Jun 14 2013

swallow wrote:

Pondering wrote:

New York and Alan are both insufferable intellectual snobs. Racism is real. Insisting that all claims of racism be humoured even when they are wrong is self-defeating. It's proof that PoCs see racism where there is none.

Please read the stickies in this forum, if you want to understand why this (and much else in your post) is highly problematic from an anti-racist standpoint. 

That minorities get shot in situations in which white people don't get shot is racism.

That minorities don't get jobs, or don't get apartments, or aren't treated with respect, due to the colour of their skin is racism.

Affirmative action is appropriate because historical racism as well as current racism is still impacting PoC.

In Canada the minority most damaged by racism is the indigenous people of Canada but all visible minorities face racism.

Enacting all the recommendations of the Truth and Reconcilliation committee is the minimum we can do but nothing can ever make up for the sins of the past because some things are just beyond full restitution.

The bartender could not pour the drink. It was not racist (nor sexist) to explain why he couldn't pour the drink it was normal human behavior by people of all skin colours.

There was no correct way for the bartender or Jessie to react. The only alternative was to lie to New York. I don't see how lying to PoC is respectful or a solution.


Pondering
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Joined: Jun 14 2013

6079_Smith_W wrote:

No one should have to worry about being murdered by cops in the street. I'd say that is the priority.

Maybe it was seeing one too many instances of some people getting turned into a grease spot, while the white people almost invariably get the kid glove treatment to make sure they don't bonk their heads on the way in to the cop car.

But the fact that some stupid idiots don't seem to get just how lucky we are, even to the point of flaunting it, is kind of galling.

Mentally ill or drugged white people still get murdered by cops, or those who speak a different language, or are in some other way disempowered.

White people have more power on average than minorities, at least in the western world and as a result of racism, which is obviously a huge injustice.

In that sense white people are certainly lucky and advantaged. So are the abled, the well, males and wealthy people.

No white person can know what it is like to be a PoC because even if they live as one they do so by choice. The same goes for being female, or disabled.

The message I'm receiving is that the function of the lucky and advantaged is to listen and agree. That is not a path to truth and reconcilliation.


swallow
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Joined: May 16 2002

Pondering, I don't think "It's proof that PoCs see racism where there is none" is, I think, an appropriate comment in an anti-racism forum. It's not in keeping with what are suppsoed to be agreed fundamental principles in this one forum. 


Sineed
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Joined: Dec 4 2005

Interesting profile of Rachel Dolezal. It's kind of long. Basically, she was raised by extreme Christian fundies whose abuse may have made her hate her identity as a white person. It doesn't justify what she did, but after reading this article, I can't help but have some sympathy.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/rachel-dolezal-profile-interview

Quote:
Though Rachel has rarely publicly discussed why and how her life her "hasn't been easy," news outlets have reported on Rachel's parents' extreme Christianity and the court case against her biological brother Joshua, who was accused of sexually molesting a young black girl. Rachel was a witness in the case, which also brought up an earlier sexual abuse accusation against Joshua. Rachel alleges her parents outed her in retaliation.

She seems to be a psychologically fragile person who survived a traumatic childhood, and found solace in having a black identity. Overall the article is a thoughtful discussion of racial identity.

 

 


Pondering
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Joined: Jun 14 2013

swallow wrote:

Pondering, I don't think "It's proof that PoCs see racism where there is none" is, I think, an appropriate comment in an anti-racism forum. It's not in keeping with what are suppsoed to be agreed fundamental principles in this one forum. 

It is terrible that some people think that racism is no longer an issue, just like the people that believe sexism is no longer an issue, or that false rape accusations are common.

Every time a woman is proven to have made a false accusation it sets us back. It fuels the argument that we can't trust women who say they were raped and that women use accusations of rape as a weapon against men. The whiteness of many of the women accusing Bill Cosby of rape didn't benefit them. They were still called liars until the numbers were so overwhelming that the truth could no longer be denied. Even then he still managed to keep fans willing to go to his shows.

People like to talk about intersectionality but it only seems to count in the sense of adding up grievances but not how intersectionality also mitigates. I have no doubt that Cosby has faced racism throughout his lifetime even while wealthy but his intersectionalities include male and wealthy. We had to get far into the double digits of white women to counter the word of one black man yet sexism is routinely dismissed as a frivolous complaint in the western world.

There was absolutely no correct way for the bartender and Jessie to react. None. If they agreed they were being racist the bartender would have had to serve the drink and Jessie would have had to drink it or also be accused of racism.

The flipside of racism being condemned is that being accused of it is serious. For white people to brush off accusations of racism would be to imply that it's no big deal.

This thread is entitled "talking about race with white people" not which implies white people also get to talk.

I have suffered prejudice all my life because I am female. The worst experiences of my life happened to me because I am female. That should afford me some latitude. Even so I would never say that "it is never a good look for a man to say something isn't sexist" especially when he is right. I would not interpret that as saying sexism doesn't exist at all nor even that he has never done anything sexist. I would feel patronized if he didn't speak up.

I have no idea how a PoC experiences life and I never will. It isn't possible. I do know that certain human emotions and reactions cross all boundries of language culture sex and colour.

Love and joy and anger and hatred and sorrow all feel the same. All people when attacked get defensive.

It is up to the privileged to accommodate the under-privileged not the other way around but if the goal is truth and reconcilliation communication has to be genuine and honest on both sides.


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

Do Lives Matter in Whitesville?

Quote:
The brutal truth is that we live under an economic system that values profit above all working-class lives–whatever their hue–and indeed above human life itself, past, present, and future.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010
Paladin1
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Joined: Jan 14 2013

I can't tell if that's racist or if I'm allowed to laugh at that.


RevolutionPlease
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Joined: Oct 15 2007

Don't even know where 2 start. Doulbe-checked if i was on theOnion

 

 


RevolutionPlease
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Joined: Oct 15 2007
bekayne
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Joined: Jan 23 2006

From the article:

An influential 1916 best-seller, The Passing of the Great Race — celebrating Nordic Europeans — was written by Progressive activist Madison Grant.

Grant and Franklin D. Roosevelt became friends in the 1920s, addressing one another in letters as “My dear Frank” and “My dear Madison”.

Grant’s book was translated into German, and Adolf Hitler called it his bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Grant

Grant was a close friend of several U.S. presidents, including Theodore Roosevelt and Herbert Hoover

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt#Positions_on_immigratio...

When Madison Grant published his book The Passing of the Great Race, Roosevelt wrote this to Scribner's Magazine to promote it:

The book is a capital book; in purpose, in vision, in grasp of the facts our people most need to realize. It shows an extraordinary range of reading and a wide scholarship. It shows a habit of singular serious thought on the subject of most commanding importance. It shows a fine fearlessness in assailing the popular and mischievous sentimentalities and attractive and corroding falsehoods which few men dare assail. It is the work of an American scholar and gentleman; and all Americans should be sincerely grateful to you for writing it.[202][203]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothrop_Stoddard

Stoddard was a lifelongUnitarian and Republican. He was also an enthusiastic stamp collector.

 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

UKIP Councillor criticizes BBC for "historical accuracy" over Nigerian/Jewish actor playing Margret of Anjou. Uses as evidence a tapestry which claims she was descended from a swan.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/ukip-councillor-attempts-to-bla...

 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010


RevolutionPlease
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Joined: Oct 15 2007

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/12/21/the-power-of-being...

 

Quote:
Inspector Earl, a veteran who has apparently investigated hundreds of bank robberies in Toronto, also emphasized the thief’s language skills in the notes he uses to demand cash from bank employees. “The notes, to my understanding, are well written with proper grammar, which tells me that he very well may be, uh, maybe he’s never been in trouble before,” Earl said. This eagerness to explain the thief’s behaviour, to vouch for his intellect, is notable for its sympathy. Why don’t police give all suspects such benefit of the doubt? “Maybe he’s an educated individual and this is his only hope to get some kind of money,” Earl went on. Yeah, maybe. I wonder what policing in Toronto would look like if police were so generous towards all criminal suspects, particularly those who are not seen as white, male, well-educated, and well-dressed. Imagine police extended this generosity to the residents they disproportionately target through carding, people who are stopped even though they are not suspected of any crime.

 

Quote:
The so-called lunchtime bandit has been telling bank employees he has a gun when he demands money. Yet Earl and the police have not issued the well-known public warning that the thief should be considered “armed and dangerous.” It is interesting that, in a city where police kill black people who are holding hammers or scissors, or who are unarmed, the same cops can make excuses for a white guy who had the good sense to shave before committing his crimes. That’s not privilege, it’s power, a power that transforms a public terror into an intelligent white man whose “only hope” is to take what he wants by force.


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