Danny Williams' Health

I'm looking forward to how he'll spin this when he gets back.  Should be entertaining.

The spin so far:

So he went to the US for the good of the people of NFLD.

How was having the surgery done in Nfld. never an option for him? If there is no heart surgery avail. in the province he leads, wouldn't it be his responsibility to fix that? I would like to know which doctors are offering the medical advice to fly to the US if you are rich for treatment?

Apparently Williams and Lesnar are a tag team.

From Wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brock_Lesnar

On October 26, 2009, it was announced that Lesnar had pulled out of the UFC 106 card in which he was set to face Shane Carwin for the UFC Heavyweight Championship due to an illness. UFC President Dana White said that Brock had been ill for three weeks and claimed he had never been this sick in his life and that it would take him a while to recover, his fight with Carwin was rescheduled for UFC 108 in early 2010.[88] Lesnar initially sought treatment in Canada, but later told reporters that he had received Third World treatment from malfunctioning equipment at a hospital in Manitoba, and that seeking better medical treatment in the United States saved his life. Lesnar, who describes himself as a conservative and a supporter of the US Republican Party, subsequently admitted that he shared his experience in an effort to speak on the behalf of the Americans "that don't want this [Canadian-style health care] to happen."[89]

On November 4, it was confirmed that Lesnar was suffering from mononucleosis and that his bout with Carwin would have to wait a bit longer, thus the fight for UFC 108 was cancelled.[90] On November 14 at the UFC 105 post-fight conference, Dana stated, "He's not well and he's not going to be getting well anytime soon." and that an interim title match might need to be set up.[91] In addition to mononucleosis, it was revealed that Lesnar was suffering from a serious case of diverticulitis, an intestinal disorder, which would require surgery.[92] After further diagnosis, on November 16 Lesnar underwent surgery to close a perforation in his intestine that had been leaking fecal matter into his abdomen, causing pain, abscesses, and overtaxing his immune system to the point that he contracted mononucleosis. From the level of damage to Lesnar's system, the surgeon estimated that the intestinal condition had been ongoing for around a year.[93]

Sounds like he's going on the advice of his doctors, though it's not clear. Also not clear if he's footing the bill himself, or if the province is.

Either way, I can't find a reason to get upset about it - if his doctors told him to go away for the procedure and the province is covering it, is it really two-tier health care (assuming the same would have happened for any one else in need of the same procedure)?

If he's simply leaving the province to pay for the procedure himself in the U.S., there's still no real downside: he paid his taxes but is now not going to use the health care he paid for. As a result other patients move up the line and there are more health care resources to go around. I mean, do people really believe that in order to protect our health care system we should bar Canadians from leaving the country? This isn't North Korea.

The only issue is why the procedure could not be done in the province. And that really is not necessarily an issue either. If it's something extremely complicated, rare or specialised, the cost effective thing may actually be to send people somewhere else rather than developing the capacity in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I imagine that's the argument he'd use - that by allowing wealthy people to seek private care, it shortens the public queue.  But Danny Williams is not a private citizen - his actions have implications.  And there are many cities in Canada providing top-drawer cardiac care - I used to work in a hospital in Toronto that does heart-lung transplants.

He has some explaining to do.

You are giving advice to Canadians to fly to the US for treatment if they can afford it? I thought you were practicing in the US?

But he's not a private citizen.  Perhaps it's just a coincidence that in the middle of a very public dispute in the US over health care, amidst ongoing attacks against the Canadian system, that a RIGHT-WING Canadian politician flies to the US for care.  But I doubt it.

I don't attack him, but I do question whether this decision was made solely on the basis of health concerns.  Particularly because it's not only a right-wing politician, but also one who has a gift for grandstanding.

(emphasis added)

Yes, that is the central element in the American system, isn't it?

So what? Because he holds public office he should put his health at risk in order to make some sort of political point? It reminds me of the people who attacked the Obamas for sending their daughters to an expensive private school instead of a Washington public school. A) personal decisions related to family and health I don't think are in bounds and b) is it really reasonable to insist that Obama give his kids an inferior education or that Williams get inferior healthcare? As a private citizen, would any of us do the same?

That really sucks, Boom Boom.

And here's the thing: an endoscopy is a DIAGNOSTIC procedure. For those unfamiliarm it basically involves inserting a camera into the patient's body in order to look around to make a diagnosis. So just to get the diagnosis in this case is over a year. Once the issue is detected, depending on what the prescribed treatment is, who knows how long is will take?

I think the burden of proof is upon Premier Williams to prove that by seeking care within Canada, he would be putting his life at risk.  I'm not convinced that he isn't making a political point by going state-side.

Yeah, I highly doubt that anyone has to wait months or even weeks for heart surgery here.

I have family members from underserviced areas who haven't had to wait much at all to get the care they need when it's a serious illness. 

In the US, they make it sound like people are dying of heart attacks and cancer all over the place because they're on a two year waiting list for open heart surgery or biopsies or dialysis.  It's just not true.

You're right on the money here. Canada's healthcare system is good if you are in urgent need of serious medical care. My dad had heart bypass surgery last year and got it very quickly and received excellent care from the hospital - Sunnybrook in Toronto. I really know nothing about the state of cardiac care in Newfoundland.

The problem is that canada's system has such limitations in terms of resources that they end up rationing the care they give out.  For anything that's not a matter of immediate life and death, you get royally screwed. Nobody will drop dead if they don't get knee surgery but I know, not jsut from treating such patients but from having had two major knee surgeries myself, how horrible it is to be constantly in pain and not being able to do so many little things you;'ve always taken for granted. And especially for people whose conditions are even worse than my own. I've had patients whose spouses had to set up cots on the main floor of their house because the patient simply could not walk up a flight of stairs. Now, having to do that briefly really sucks. Having to do it for six months - during time you may be missing work cause you're jsut unable to function sufficiently is really, really terrible.

Do you honestly expect an answer on a public forum? First, indicate to SSC that you're really serious. Then, he'll have his people contact you and enter into negotiations. Would you be paying by cheque, credit card, installments? Are you interested in enrolling in the Frequent Flyer MRI loyalty program? Do you know someone who knows someone? All that could affect the final fee structure. But rest assured, your health is our very first concern!

My first thought on this, which hasn't changed, is that Danny Williams is making a terrible statement about our healthcare system. If the premier of a province can't get heart surgery for his condition, what information don't we have? Does he not trust our doctors and surgeons? Does he have a rare condition for which there is no treatment available in Canada?

At any rate, as an elected representative, he should be using the same system the rest of us use...that way, if he doesn't think it's adequate, p'raps he'll take appropriate steps to improve it.

I wonder what will happen to his populist appeal?

My sister in law has a couple knees and a hip that are after-market upgrades.  She didn't feel she had to wait excessively long, though I don't remember what the times were.  She also had very good access to rehab services.  What was not so good was getting the level of home care she needed after, and it was a considerable strain on the family.

As far as Danny goes, if he used the fact that he's richer than God to get something faster than other Canadians when he wasn't in immediate risk, as a voter I sure as hell would remember that.  If he was in imminent danger and there's some vital procedure that's available in the states but not available in St John's then as a citizen I'd sure want to know what it was and get it fixed.  His office is just a couple on km away from Memorial University which has a medical faculty. Given the diet of most Newfoundlanders you'd think there'd be lots of heart specialists.

I agree that the main problems facing the health care system up here is that it's intentionally underfunded by governments who are opposed to the idea of single tier publicly funded medicine.

Should a politician resign if they send their kids to private school instead of enrolling them in the very education system which he is entrusted to manage?

In the USA, there are lots of hospital beds available for sick people across the country. And there are lots of sick people across the country.

On Newsworld they're sayng Newfoundlanders are solidly behind Williams with a 90% approval rating. Williams himself donates his salary to a charity that flies Newfoundlanders outside the province for medical care not available there. Also, it's unclear if the procedure Williams needs is even available in Canada. Williams will talk about all this when he returns to office.

Since he's been very secretive about exactly what sort of treatment he's scheduled to have it's difficult to draw definite conclusions.

One of the press releases did say that the treatment in question wasn't available [it didn't comment on whether it was available elsewhere in Canada].  If that's true, it's an indictment of the Canadian system simply because the treatment that his doctors believe he should have simply isn't available in Canada.  If it's simply a matter of beds/operating rooms aren't available that's a different problem but still not exactly a positive.

The only reason that I can think of that isn't a very serious indictment of the Canadian healthcare system would be wanting to have the operation performed by a particular doctor who happens to be based in the US.

But we'll probably never know.

No, Boom Boom - they should quit if they publicly use their filthy wealth to look after themselves where they haven't used their political power to look after their fellow citizens. This seems very clear to me.

Unionist changed the goalposts  with the insertion of "if they publicly use their filthy wealth to look after themselves".

So every provincial health care system, big or small, must have the capacity to perform every single conceivable medical procedure, no matter the cost, or be labeled a "failure"?

It's quite possible that the province has decided that certain procedures are needed so infrequently that it would be more cost-effective to pay to send the patient somewhere else rather than spend the money on developing the capacity in-province.

The CBC contacted cardiac centres in Ottawa and Toronto, and the cardiologists said, "There are no heart surgeries that can't be performed in Canada."

Edited to remove links that caused ghastly side-scroll.  Basically, there's tons of medical research going on here, and surgical procedures as advanced as anywhere.  Canada is no earnest backwater sacrificing scientific research in order to pay for health care for everybody.

Sure it's possible that Premier Williams was seeing a specific dr who is based in the US.  Otherwise, though, I tend to think he's trying to make a point.

Cost-cutting right-wing politician with a taste for stirring up controversy flies state-side for surgery - I'll believe it was really no more than following medical opinion when I hear the whole story.

How will this spin out if God forbid he dies during the procedure? Just deserts some would say... Hope he makes it though.

Why? Williams is a multi-millionaire, and the wealthy are best positioned to fly south and pay (or have their insurance company pay) for procedures which are so rare that they're not available in N&L.

He should waive his precious privacy and make a full, unabashed, public disclosure - or else face the kind of well-informed speculation that you hear in this thread. If he can't get the health care he needs in N&L, he's not providing that health care to his citizens. Isn't that painfully obvious?

There's a lot about health care in this country that sucks. But imagine (to use your scenario) that Williams had flown to Toronto, had his procedure, then billed N&L. Just imagine that for a small moment. I think you've got the picture now.

Bravo! I'm looking forward to this second version of Exodus - where the masters flee and the slaves are left behind to live in freedom.

I hope the U.S. right uses Williams as their poster child for opposing Canadian socialist health care. There are enough intelligent people down there to get the right message: "So, medicare works for everyone except the filthy rich! Kind of the opposite of our system in the U.S.!"

I have relatives in the US who have no insurance and no hope of any. If they need medical care, they are screwed.

My great aunt was having an operation in a Detroit area hospital about 20 years ago. She's like 70 at the time, and they wheel her down to the OR for the procedure. The anaesthesiologist then says at that point he wants $500 bucks cash on the barrelhead before he'd put her under. She threw such a screaming fit and threatened him with this and the other that he caved in and gave her the anaesthetic. She told us that story every visit like she was still traumatized years after the fact.

You are correct that "in most cases" one would pay very little...being that about 270 million people have health insurance here.  Yes, it sucks if a person is one of the 30 million without health insurance (although a significant percentage of those people are young people who elect not to have insurance), but for most of the rest (the vast majority), the coverage is good.  If I want to see a GP, I just pick up the phone and schedule a visit.  I don't have to search and search and search for a GP who is taking new patients...it's just not an issue. 

I'll just say this: I'd rather be here with health insurance than put up with the Canadian healthcare system for "free".

And I'd rather be here with the Canadian health care system (which is not free but a non-profit system where everyone shares the costs and everyone has access) than put up with American health insurance for profit. 

No, sometimes they launder it.

Sven, you want to defend the U.S. health care system on this board? Are you for real?

That's true.

I don't.  Given that he'll have more than enough time to be prepped by his staffers when he returns, I suspect he will spin this surgery as something he could not get in Canada, no matter what the facts are.

Also, the idea that Williams is really making a political point, and not looking out for number one first, is kinda silly.  He knows that any proposal for two-tier health in his home province is a massive vote-loser there, and the idea that he is somehow colluding with or supporting the U.S. right is just a smidgen unlikely.

I think Williams is helping out the Republican side of the debate on health care in the states. He may even be on the take from the insurance companies for this bit of sensationalism. And there's no doubt he knew exactly how this would be played out in the American newz media.

It's simple. Public spending on health care, education, and day care around the world is worth more than $6 trillion a year. The neoliberalorama, the GATS agreement countries and WTO represent pressure on our elected stooges to hack off pieces of the public good and throw it to salivating private enterprise jackals waiting in the wings. The writing was on the wall for oil derivative and widget based capitalism way back in the 70's and 80's. Capitalists profit margins for widget capitalism began falling in the 1970's. They want our public services, and there is no time frame for it happening. There is no time frame because they know that the neoliberal agenda and democracy are incompatible. We're being softened up to the idea gradually by federal cutbacks in transfer payments and financial crises. Capitalists want to do the full Monty with forcing market ideology into every aspect of our lives. Obama and Harper and all the neoliberal minions of doom "have a dream." And that's for blacks and whites and everyone else to die in poverty together while the rich get richer.

Your entire post, abnormal - every single part of it - misses the central point that Williams is the premier. If he weren't, this whole episode would be a purely private matter not worthy of public discussion, and I would agree with every one of your retorts (except the strikeout edit).

Of course that's true. And you live in Minnesota if I recall correctly so actually know what you're talking about based on your own experiences rather than rely on silly caricatures of only millionaires getting health care while "the masses" die in some alley.

I've performed over a thousand surgeries in my career. There were precisely TWO patients  who could be classified as "the elite" in terms of wealth and status (they were professional athletes). Everyone else was just an average citizen, who got into an accident or developed a condition and needed help and got it very quickly.

I still can't get over that I have to wait a year for a diagnostic procedure here in Quebec. If that isn't an indictment of a shitty health care system, I don't know what is. (I'm not alone, by the way - here on the Lower North Shore there are others with similar complaints).

And there's the argument in favour of a two-tier system in a nutshell. I like what we've got, and I'm not out to argue against it, but if my OHIP funded options are insufficient, and it's my or a loved one's health in question, I'd like to have similar options as well. I trust that Danny will be an enthusiastic supporter of ensuring that his constituents have the same options he had.

The CBC guy in Newfoundland covering this story reported that Danny Williams donates his entire salary as Premier to a charity that funds travel for Newfoundlanders to travel outside the province for health care not available there. That's at least a recognition that there is a crisis in health care in Newfoundland. With large revenues from offshore oil, presumably things will improve in the future.  

One angle I haven't seen covered is maybe Williams has relatives or friends in the US he is staying with or are visiting him during the surgery. Anyone know?

My experience is actually using our system......Nothing but the best of care. Nothing but the most up to date procedures. From cataract surgery (the wait was a week) at the Branson Hospital to the heart procedures at  Sunnybrooke, to the various other tests for me and my spouse. 

Shall we list the crap the Americans that don't have insurance have to go through? Or the ones that are under insured? 

Takes a while to get CAT scans here as well, but we can get MRIs and ultrasounds the day after they're prescribed - an air ambulance airlifts us out to hospitals in Blanc Sablon or Sept-Iles (Quebec) or St. Anthony (Newfoundland).

There's a shortage of anaesthesiologists in Sept-Iles, I think, which is why I'm on a one-year waiting list for my diagnostic procedure - but the procedure is scheduled in Quebec City, so maybe there's a shortage there, too.

My uncle was an anaesthesiologist at Toronto General by the way - I scrubbed and gowned to watch a surgical procedure as part of my training at U of T, and my uncle was doing the anaesthesiology during the operation, and we chatted afterwards.

My brother had emergency heart treatment at the world-renown Ottawa Heart Institute, but he had to wait a hell of a long time for the procedure. Blood-thinning drugs kept him alive until he got his operation.

Here's the basic argument, as I understand it: A socialized medical system should be hermetically sealed such that it covers everyone within that system (and everyone within that system must get the identical level of medical care as anyone else) and no one in that system can opt out of it and get treatment elsewhere (i.e., they may not seek care from private health providers, either domestically or internationally).  That structure is necessary because it is the only way to ensure that those with power (i.e., "the rich") have an incentive to get the best possible medical care for everyone because that is the only way "the rich" will be able to get the medical care they desire for themselves (since they only get what everyone else gets).

So, if a person wants to take her money and travel to the Mayo Clinic to have a certain procedure done immediately, that would be contrary to the principles of - and dangerously undercut - an ideal socialized medical system.

What is merrily glossed over is that such a system of enforced equality necessarily impinges on individual freedom of choice over the care of one's own body.  To make such an anti-choice system palatable, a fanciful canard is created whereby only a microscopic group of "the rich" could possibly care about - and take advantage of - such a freedom of choice.  Yet, the vast majority of the 270 million Americans with health insurance are, in fact, just average Janes and Joes.

Now, of course, what fails in the American system is that about 10% of the people have no health insurance coverage.

Just to add some information to this debate, Ontario regularly sends patients out of the country for treatment. I'm not excusing (or condemning) Williams but there seems to be the impression in this discussion that going to the US is highly unusual. It doesn't appear to be. According to this article, 12000 Ontarians were sent to the US as part of Ontario's "out of country" program last year.  

That inquiry has about as much relevance to the Williams healthcare issue as this question:

So, two trains leave Toledo in opposite directions. Train A is going 50% faster than Train B but Train B's route is 35% shorter than the route Train A is taking.  Which train will reach its destination first?

I like the train analogy better...

Oh, lookie here...we've hit 100 posts.  Thus, it's now time to "close the thread for length" because six posters have dial-up Internet access. 

Perhaps that it does work for hundreds of millions of Americans?

Or, perhaps it's not a "political message" at all.  Now that would be a novel concept.  'Course, for some people, everything is political (what you eat, what you wear, what you drive, what you live in, where you live, what you read, what you do for entertainment, what you think - well, you know the drill).

My bigger concern, though, is that this site is on the verge of exploding into a million unrecoverable pieces of ether because we are now exceeding the much-dreaded 100-post "threshold of death"...YIKES!!!

I think it's clear that the Canada Health Act (or whatever medicare is called these days) is broken, unequal across the provinces, and no one seems to have sensible ideas on how to fix it. Out of frustration with the public system, I predict even more drift towards two-tiered medical care than at present.

Here's the thing: Issues of significnat interest get broken up into multiple, often unconnected, threads (I say "unconnected" because subsequent threads are often started with no back-reference link to a prior thread -- so someone reading such a subsequent thread is unable to easily go back and find the earlier discussion).  That inconvenience affects 100% of babblers (in contrast to the 0.0002% who are still on dial-up).  So, I think it's a stupid "policy" (not to mention arbitrary).

That's highly debatable. Your country has some of the worst national health statistics among developed countries. It's a system that works for big insurance companies and private health care capitalists driven by a profit motive for actually not providing health care to sick Americans.

That has nothing to do with the healthcare system! It's because compared to places like france and Japan, Americans, have shitty diets and don't exercise properly.

Are we debating whether the U.S. health care system is better for people than the Canadian one?

Are there any discussion boards where certain axioms are taken for granted and we can move forward from there?

I still haven't heard from Sven or SSC whether they would approve torture to save their loved ones. All they do is attack the question. At least Mike Ignatieff had the courage to answer "yes", then to change his mind later. But he answered.

Exactly (see Saving Lives with Self-Control).

So, the private HMO insurance pay-if-you-can health "care" system imposed by the U.S. right wing is sound - but the people destroy their own health through bad diet choices.

Good regime, bad people.

Welcome to elbbab.

Of course your answer is yes. No kidding. It's the answer of Dershowitz, Cheney, Ignatieff.

That's where you're wrong. The entire society, the entire world community, says "no" to torture. And we don't allow the affected individuals to make that choice.

And so it must be, and will be, with health care. If not, society disintegrates.

I didn't limit it to diet. But, yes, the systems in both Canada and the United States are over-extended because of poor LIFESTYLE choices that many people make. How much do you think smoking costs the system by leading to cancer, heart disease, etc? How much do you think poor diets and lack of exercise resulting in obesity costs the system by leading to diabetes and other chronic conditions?

yes, we all say "no" in theory - as do I. We know the RIGHT answer. It's very different when it's your family. Just like I oppose the death penalty in principle but were someone to harm my wife or son, I'd happily watch that person die. Hopefully, neither of us ever have to deal with anything so horrible and can remain ideologically pure as we discuss issues in abstract terms.

As I said, SSC, your stand on the big issues in life are more than clear and have been for a long time.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that my dad had heart bypass surgery last year. His condition had a lot to do with teh fact that he smoked for many years, ate a lot of bad food and didn't exercise. And he's an upper middle class lawyer who lives in Yorkville.

Nobody, himself included, would reasonably blame society. The "surrounding society" didn't pump cigarette smoke into his lungs for decades or physically prevent him from going for a brisk walk. Luckily, this was a wake-up call for him and he's made a lot of effort to live a healthier lifestyle and will hopefully avoid further health problems down the road.

It'll be almost two years by the time I actually have the procedure. My physician is pissed off about this, but apparently can't do anything about it.

Then the Chinese under Mao and the Russians under the Soviets must have been the fattest people to every creep and crawl along the surface of the Earth.

What bullshit.

I don't think anyone consciously chooses to be poor.

But, the vast majority of people do, in fact, choose whether or not to apply themselves in school (or to go to school at all) or what to put into their mouths (or into their bodies generally).

Some people (believe it or not!!) choose not to read or to exercise and, instead, choose to sit on their fat asses and watch hours and hours of mindless television each day.

Some people choose to expend is the absolute minimum possible amount of effort to just get by (whether in school, in work, their friendships, or what have you) - and let others carry their load (and, indeed, expect others to carry their load).

_______________________________________

Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!

We should be asking how we can afford corporate welfare payments to profitable and unprofitable private businesses. We're middle of the pack for overall taxation compared to 35 other developed countries, so there is lots of room on taxation. Norway has little trouble collecting royalties from oil and maintaining a well funded petroleum fund, well-funded socialized medicine, national daycare, free PSE tuition for all Norwegians, and was a net creditor nation years ago. I'd be worried about a lot more than just health care in Canada with the corrupt stooges we've had running the show for the last 30 years in this frozen Puerto Rico.

I think that the most wasteful and most oil dependent economy in the world has so many problems ahead that it should not worry about net creditor nations like socialist Norway. Youve got Wall Street bankers, and youve got problems for years to come. There will be no real recovery in North America and UK until trillions of dollars in what amount to gambling debts and iou's are written off and the whole neoliberalorama put through bankruptcy proceedings. It's finished.