PEI Election April 23 2019

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Pogo Pogo's picture

Would any NDP on PEI identify as a Socialist.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pogo wrote:

Would any NDP on PEI identify as a Socialist.

Only an Islander who was a political junkie could answer that question. I wonder what the policy passed at its conventions is like compared to the Greens?

swallow swallow's picture

Evidence in this thread suggests the PEI Greens are left of centre. Certainly not socialist, of course. 

WWWTT

Here’s an odd thread? PEI is the smallest province but has got babblers attention in this thread. 

My self they have too much representation as is. 

They should probably be amalgamated with Nova Scotia like cape breton was long ago. 

NorthReport
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

14 seats for majority

Looks like it will be a minority government

PCs / 12 seats / 37%  (Hopefully no majority!)

Libs / 5 seats / 29% 

Grns / 9 seats / 31% (Ahead of Liberals)

The District 9 by-election could be huge

Excellent showing for the Greens.

Quite a shit-kicking though for the Liberals tonite.

So will the Liberals play second fiddle to the Greens in as minority government and let the Green leader become Premier?

Or will the Greens support the PCs in a minority government?

Or....

Or Liberals support the Conservatives.

Or A three-party agreement?

And it's NOT "District 9"-the name of the riding is Charlottetown-Hillsborough Park.  

 

JKR

JKR

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Here’s an odd thread? PEI is the smallest province but has got babblers attention in this thread. 

My self they have too much representation as is. 

They should probably be amalgamated with Nova Scotia like cape breton was long ago. 

Please read some Canadian history.

Nova Scotia came into confederation with Cape Breton. PEI came in on its own. No comparison. Your statement is offensive.

Also PEI has some unique challenges and has had a unique history -- all important considerations. PEI came into this country relativley larger than it is today as well. It's contribution to the nation is not less than the clout it has either.

BTW -- perhaps you may even read about the importance of that first meeting in Charlottetown that got the Confederation ball rolling.

One reason small provinces have outsized representation is that their small size gives them less leverage. In order to give them a fair representation then they may need extra representation in number in parliament. To explain: a part of a large province can be smaller than a small province and yet have more clout by having clout in the province which then applies its clout nationally. Also it may have other parts of the country that have similar issues.

As well a part of the country that is unique may need extra clout as those interests are not being taken up by anyone else.

In other words there is no formula to break this down cleanly.

You are incorrect if you think PEI has the most clout for its size. You are wrong if you think they have the most representation for their size as well.

As for interest to babblers -- the only judge is babblers. This is not up to you and your snide remark on this is deeply offensive.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean please to not make this about being offended. Nothing WWWTT posted was in anyway offensive.

I too dislike the fact that PEI is over represented in the House and think it should be merged with NB, especially since it is now only an island in name. There is nothing particularly noble about PEI's absentee landowners refusing to agree to join Canada in 1867 until they were bought out by the rest of the country and given a sweetheart deal. As for the famous Charlottetown meetings the Fathers of Confederation dined on the finest food and drank the best booze and fucked the best looking sex workers on the island, that's historic fact.

IMO PEI is an historic anomaly that should disappear as a separate province if we ever revamp our Constitution.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean please to not make this about being offended. Nothing WWWTT posted was in anyway offensive.

I too dislike the fact that PEI is over represented in the House and think it should be merged with NB, especially since it is now only an island in name. There is nothing particularly noble about PEI's absentee landowners refusing to agree to join Canada in 1867 until they were bought out by the rest of the country and given a sweetheart deal. As for the famous Charlottetown meetings the Fathers of Confederation dined on the finest food and drank the best booze and fucked the best looking sex workers on the island, that's historic fact.

IMO PEI is an historic anomaly that should disappear as a separate province if we ever revamp our Constitution.

I said it was offensive -- and not personally as you are trying to pretend.

I already know what you think of everything that lies to the East of you and don't care. Must everything be about your hating the east personal bias?

Sean in Ottawa

Some information here:

On the Charlottetown conference

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/charlottetown-conference

On the entry into Canada of PEI

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/prince-edward-island-a...

Note the issue of absentee landlords is one of people who were not on the Island by definition. This was a problem created by the British Empire.

https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/confederation/023001-3010.02-e.html

It is true this was something PEI was trying to work out that had caused a great deal of problems for the local government. The buyout ($800,000) allowed the people living there to escape colonial control over land from overseas. It is shameful that Kropotkin is using this as a smear today. I never thought of him as such an imperialist before.

Now of course with his shameful smears, he does not admit that this was typical of different parts of the country negotiating to get in. In the case of his part of the country a debt was also covered and horse-trading ensued:

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/british-columbia-and-c...

One of the horsetrades was the issue that the colony had nearly bankrupted itself and needed to have its debts paid. Another issue was the number of unelected members of the Assembly who demanded to have payments and pensions and held up the process for that -- and to get some new positions in the Confederated country...

Another big controversy from the time was the desire of the unelected assembly of BC to continue without responsible government (read up on clause 15).

But most of all don't believe any jerk who wants to smear a part of Canada making any suggestion that any other part of the country was morally better.

JKR

I think reducing PEI’s representation from 4 seats to 1 in the House of Commons would make no difference on Canada’s grand scheme of things but it would create a huge amount of resentment in PEI and other parts of Atlantic Canada.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

JKR wrote:

I think reducing PEI’s representation from 4 seats to 1 in the House of Commons would make no difference on Canada’s grand scheme of things but it would create a huge amount of resentment in PEI and other parts of Atlantic Canada.

You are absolutely right.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

DISCLAIMER: MY POST ARE PERSONAL OPINION AND ARE NOT INTENDED TO MISLEAD. ANY MISTAKES CAN MERELY BE ATTRIBUTED TO OLD AGE AND POOR MEMORY. FEEL FREE TO TELL ME ABOUT ANY CORRECTIONS OR ERRATA.

WWWTT

You and I don’t have to apologize for shit nothing kropotkin! Confederation is simply a part of white British imperialism. I give a ratts ass about any history lessons because sure as fuck they won’t include how the Indigenous people’s were killed raped and robbed. But ya, merge PEI with NB instead of NS. That would be a geographically closer fit, but I’m not sure if it would work culturally?

Sean in Ottawa

JKR wrote:

I think reducing PEI’s representation from 4 seats to 1 in the House of Commons would make no difference on Canada’s grand scheme of things but it would create a huge amount of resentment in PEI and other parts of Atlantic Canada.

It would further reduce the representation from the Maritime provinces and Atlantic Canada. It would reduce the representation from outside central Canada. It would also reduce the influence from PEI which is already very low. influence is not proportionate either. If one part of the country gets 51% of the power it effectively gets almost all of it. The lower down you go the more disproportionate the power is.

The point is also that PEI does not have the most power per population either and if you tooks it away for them on this basis other parts of the country are also going to be affected.

Of course I can appreciate Kropotkin's desire which he has stated before that the smaller provinces should not get extra representation and that this be based on population alone. I should be grateful since this would increase the clout of Ontario in Confederation by about 10%. Ontario's population is 38.64% of Canada and its seats in the House are 35.7%. Now I do understand that BC is shortchanged and that extra seats should be added -- this is due in part to population growth but also a bias towards smaller provinces.

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

You and I don’t have to apologize for shit nothing kropotkin! Confederation is simply a part of white British imperialism. I give a ratts ass about any history lessons because sure as fuck they won’t include how the Indigenous people’s were killed raped and robbed. But ya, merge PEI with NB instead of NS. That would be a geographically closer fit, but I’m not sure if it would work culturally?

You don't know much about this place. That's okay, really it is, except when you want to proclaim it proudly -- then you might get called out.

Canada, as it is, is a result of imperialism but the confederation process was not all about increasing imperialism and in some areas it reduced it. You here virtue signalling about imperialism is obnoxious when you say how proud you are to speak out of your arse.

Confederation was in large part about Colonies that did not trust the Empire to protect them and wanted to unite to defend themselves against US expansion. Now I know you must have a great love of US expansion and all but maybe this is something you could at least respect even if you do not agree that these parts of Canada might have wanted not to be forced to join the US.

Nobody here is going to defend the actions of the central government or British Empire here but at least there is a desire among some people to respect the people who live in different parts of Canada now and know something about what the hell we are talking about.

I don't respect people who come into a topic to mouth off and then take pride in their ignorance. Maybe stick to the topics that you are interested in knowing something about. There are many ways in which a non-imperialistic take can be brought to Canadian history and Confederation but it won't come from being proud to not give a damn. Won't earn you any respect either. Matter of fact why not stay out of the regional threads altogether if you just want to insult the place and say how much you hate it and why wherever you live ought to be the belly button of the universe? Usually when entering threads at Rabble it is frowned on to go in and say you are not interested in the topic of the thread and just want to insult it and wish it would disappear.

Maybe there is nobody on Babble from PEI to tell you to fuck yourself but the attitude you bring to one part of Canada pretty much reflects on you more than that part.

WWWTT

Ya ok if you say so Sean in Ottawa? Thanks for making your comment less than 6,000 words.  Saves me some time so I can read other posters comments that won’t put me to sleep. 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Ya ok if you say so Sean in Ottawa? Thanks for making your comment less than 6,000 words.  Saves me some time so I can read other posters comments that won’t put me to sleep. 

How about two:

"Fuck off"

Glad to help.

WWWTT

Actually that’s eight words. 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Actually that’s eight words. 

There are only two I wanted you to read.

swallow swallow's picture

Nah don’t merge P.E.I. into a bigger province, partition some of the existing provinces, they are mostly too big. Northern Ontario and Vancouver Island should both be provinces. And Toronto and Montreal. Ottawa and Gatineau can be a new District of Canada. Gaspesie would make a great new Maritime province. 

Or if P.E.I. is going to be merged, merge it into Mikmaqi along with NS and parts of NB and Quebec. 

Sean in Ottawa

swallow wrote:

Nah don’t merge P.E.I. into a bigger province, partition some of the existing provinces, they are mostly too big. Northern Ontario and Vancouver Island should both be provinces. And Toronto and Montreal. Ottawa and Gatineau can be a new District of Canada. Gaspesie would make a great new Maritime province. 

Or if P.E.I. is going to be merged, merge it into Mikmaqi along with NS and parts of NB and Quebec. 

What about that part about those places deciding rather than us deciding for them?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

I know, I know-and I truly hope whoever wins the byelection won't immediately develop a shrimp arm.

cco

Speaking as a Montrealer, the last thing we need is for this place to be its own province.

voice of the damned

WWWTT wrote:

You and I don’t have to apologize for shit nothing kropotkin! Confederation is simply a part of white British imperialism.

I think the point of Confederation per se was to fend off annexation by the USA, which I would not call an imperialist goal.

It is true that many of the people who pushed for Confederation were supporters of imperialism(specifically the British variety), and that white-supremacist policies continued in British North America following Confederation. But that doesn't mean the point of Confederation was to grab more aboriginal land, since the British and their North American colonists already controlled the land in question, either directly as a colony, or indirectly via the HBC and other companies.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Rep by pop means places without population get less representation.

I am not sure why we need to guarantee extra access for PEI and not the Yukon.  Or for that matter northern (fill in the province of your choice).  Giving extra representation (via the HofC, Senate, First Minister meetings) to the Atlantic provinces just means that they count more than Manitoba because of historical anomalies.

Pondering

Pogo wrote:

Rep by pop means places without population get less representation.

I am not sure why we need to guarantee extra access for PEI and not the Yukon.  Or for that matter northern (fill in the province of your choice).  Giving extra representation (via the HofC, Senate, First Minister meetings) to the Atlantic provinces just means that they count more than Manitoba because of historical anomalies.

Because those are the deals they made either at the time of confederation or when they joined Canada. 

I'd like to reorganize by making a rural versus urban representation arrangement.  To some extent we are stuck with history. I'm not sure it matters anyway because our MPs are basically seat holders for the parties. They rarely get to vote on anything in a meaningful sense. The government is run by PMO staff which dictates to Cabinet Ministers so I don't see much hope in regular MPs having a say in anything significant. 

Sean in Ottawa

First, Yukon does get more representation by pop than PEI. I have no trouble with that but let's not deny it.

As for Manitoba the difference in seats per population for the 4 Atlantic Canadian provinces and Manitoba is minimal. Atlantic Canada has abaout double the seats and population. Saskatchewan with a slightly lower population does a little better than Manitoba.

swallow swallow's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

What about that part about those places deciding rather than us deciding for them?

I also want my tongue merged with my cheek. 

Sean in Ottawa

swallow wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

What about that part about those places deciding rather than us deciding for them?

I also want my tongue merged with my cheek. 

Fair enough.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

As for Manitoba the difference in seats per population for the 4 Atlantic Canadian provinces and Manitoba is minimal. Atlantic Canada has abaout double the seats and population. Saskatchewan with a slightly lower population does a little better than Manitoba.

As to Pondering saying that was the deal and those are the breaks. A deal can become unfair over time. Quebec joined confederation as a part of the Britich Commonwealth, queens english and all.  Nobody (except my brother probably) will argue that this was the deal and everyone should just live with it.

  I mentioned three measures, HofC, Senate and First Ministers.  You focussed on one.  Senators (30 versus 6) and First ministers (4 versus 1)

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

swallow wrote:

Nah don’t merge P.E.I. into a bigger province, partition some of the existing provinces, they are mostly too big. Northern Ontario and Vancouver Island should both be provinces. And Toronto and Montreal. Ottawa and Gatineau can be a new District of Canada. Gaspesie would make a great new Maritime province. 

Or if P.E.I. is going to be merged, merge it into Mikmaqi along with NS and parts of NB and Quebec. 

What about that part about those places deciding rather than us deciding for them?

If its in the national interest does any province in Canada get a say in major events that effect them? The Victoria conference came up with an amending formula that I think is interesting in its attempts to balance conflicting interests in our Confederation. This 1971 confe4rence was when I first got interested in the subjects of Constitutional reform and potentially redrweaing the map of Canada.

Amendments to the Constitution of Canada may from time to time be made by proclamation issued by the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada when so authorized by resolutions of the Senate and House of Commons and of the Legislative Assemblies of at least a majority of the Provinces that includes:

  1. every Province that at any time before the issue of such proclamation had, according to any previous general census, a population of at least twenty-five percent of the population of Canada;
  2. at least two of the Atlantic Provinces;
  3. at least two of the Western Provinces that have, according to the then latest general census, combined populations of at least fifty per cent of the population of all the Western Provinces.

https://www.canada.ca/en/intergovernmental-affairs/services/federation/c...

 

Sean your history is the history told to white Canadians by our masters to make us feel good about ourselves. It is not wrong just extremely narrow in focus. I wish you would stop attacking people for viewing it through a different lens than you use.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

swallow wrote:

Nah don’t merge P.E.I. into a bigger province, partition some of the existing provinces, they are mostly too big. Northern Ontario and Vancouver Island should both be provinces. And Toronto and Montreal. Ottawa and Gatineau can be a new District of Canada. Gaspesie would make a great new Maritime province. 

Or if P.E.I. is going to be merged, merge it into Mikmaqi along with NS and parts of NB and Quebec. 

What about that part about those places deciding rather than us deciding for them?

If its in the national interest does any province in Canada get a say in major events that effect them? The Victoria conference came up with an amending formula that I think is interesting in its attempts to balance conflicting interests in our Confederation. This 1971 confe4rence was when I first got interested in the subjects of Constitutional reform and potentially redrweaing the map of Canada.

Amendments to the Constitution of Canada may from time to time be made by proclamation issued by the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada when so authorized by resolutions of the Senate and House of Commons and of the Legislative Assemblies of at least a majority of the Provinces that includes:

  1. every Province that at any time before the issue of such proclamation had, according to any previous general census, a population of at least twenty-five percent of the population of Canada;
  2. at least two of the Atlantic Provinces;
  3. at least two of the Western Provinces that have, according to the then latest general census, combined populations of at least fifty per cent of the population of all the Western Provinces.

https://www.canada.ca/en/intergovernmental-affairs/services/federation/c...

 

Sean your history is the history told to white Canadians by our masters to make us feel good about ourselves. It is not wrong just extremely narrow in focus. I wish you would stop attacking people for viewing it through a different lens than you use.

I am fed up with your smears. You are a contrary jerk who takes whatever position you can just to give someone shit and to insult them.

You are only consistent in being a jerk and lecturing people although the subject moves like a weather vane. On another day just to be a jerk you would tear into someone about how nobody can say what should happen to BC and how making a suggestion from another part of the country means the person is an imperialist.

I could probably find a post like that from an asshole posting from your account.

No, my comment had absolutely nothing to do with an amending formula -- it was a comment about people in one part of the country making suggestions to remake another without including what the affected part of the country cares about. It was actually said partly tongue in cheek anyway. Maybe you could find a sense of humour on sale and try it out.

Let me be clear there was nothing here to support your gratuitous driveby about history from white people. The principle that people locally have a say has been supported by people the world over. You are just being a fucking troll and I don't care how long you have been here doing that.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Get a grip Sean. Your ranting is really getting worse. How many people have you made almost the same rant about this week? Its not only me you have a problem with. I have never changed my views to piss you or anyone else off. You just don't like my views and frankly I gave up caring years ago but since you dominate threads with paragraph after paragraph of drivel one cannot post about any subject without engaging you once in a while.

 

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Get a grip Sean. Your ranting is really getting worse. How many people have you made almost the same rant about this week? Its not only me you have a problem with. I have never changed my views to piss you or anyone else off. You just don't like my views and frankly I gave up caring years ago but since you dominate threads with paragraph after paragraph of drivel one cannot post about any subject without engaging you once in a while.

 

I am fine not to interact with you -- there is never any value in it and has not been for a while. You are just trolling in any interaction even when it makes you inconsistent.

I realize you are too arrogant to realize that there is a problem with your attacks and always seem to think the other person started it. I am harsh with you becuase I am fed up.

Oh and stuff your attempt to loop others in -- yes I am not responding nicely to bullshit from more than one person but I can note times where others have been upset with you in the same way. I have had the private messages from people who say that you are not worth it and they have come even when I tried to interact constructively with you.

Your attack here on me for suggesting local people have a say in what goes on with their provinces is making you not just jerk but also a hypocrite.

I have called you an asshole which is a reflection on your actions. You have repeatedly tried to smear mental health quesitons into the conversation. I have not responded in kind. Instead, I have just told you to fuck yourself. You can decide that what I am doing is more offensive than you since I have no respect for you at all. At one time there  was some.

ETA I never have attacked you for your views -- it has always been for your high handed arrogant insults and attacks and your blatant trolling and hypocrisy.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

ETA I never have attacked you for your views -- it has always been for your high handed arrogant insults and attacks and your blatant trolling and hypocrisy.

 I agree with this and frankly I wish you would start attacking my views and stop taking them as insults.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

ETA I never have attacked you for your views -- it has always been for your high handed arrogant insults and attacks and your blatant trolling and hypocrisy.

 I agree with this and frankly I wish you would start attacking my views and stop taking them as insults.

I cannot attack your ideas or know what they are when what you post is attacks. Look to the start of our interactions each time-- there is a pattern here.

I post something related to a topic - nothing to do with you. You come out with sarcasm and insults directed at me instead of the topic I am speaking about and then I call you an ass and tell you to fuck yourself. This is repeated over and over.

You are a bully who might think that your own views are so pathetic that you have to soften up your targets with insults in order to engage with them and I don't like cowing to people like you.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Ya ok if you say so Sean in Ottawa? Thanks for making your comment less than 6,000 words.  Saves me some time so I can read other posters comments that won’t put me to sleep. 

How about two:

"Fuck off"

Glad to help.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

As for interest to babblers -- the only judge is babblers. This is not up to you and your snide remark on this is deeply offensive.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

As for interest to babblers -- the only judge is babblers. This is not up to you and your snide remark on this is deeply offensive.

True -- I dish it back to someone being an asshole.

I won't bother looking for, quoting and naming the people you have had conflicts with. I figure it is their choice whether they want to be involved.

And these fights you have had with me -- these are fights you picked. You get pissed when your own shit gets thrown back at you.

You think that you have some right to sail around this place deciding to call out people based on your over-hyped opinion as being racists or imperialists or eastern Canadian whatever. You think that people should just submit to your attacks and insinuations.

I realize that you have figured out the best way to be an asshole here is to call people out for being what just about everyone here is against, becuase it is not a universal attack -- some people may like or not mind to be called imperialists. This is of course being a classic troll which is what you are when you post no explanation related to what people are talking about -- just attacks. 

Maybe this tactic lets out your daily frustrations instead of kicking a dog or abusing a person in the offline world. But there is never anything educational, productive in these posts  -- there is nothing you ever explain or justify. You just come out and attack someone who was not engaged with you and posting ideas so that you can puff up your importance. You sail around this site attacking people like, well an imperialist thinking he has to broadcast his superior intelect and moral strength whenever he pleases.

Yes, I can be pretty rude. But I do it in retaliation towards an attack. You are one who gets this rudeness a lot becuase you are the person without provocation going and attacking people's motives, characterm political persusiaon and morals, rather than engaging in what they are saying.

I know you have said you are older. therefore I cannot expect you to grow up and enage an idea for a change without calling out the person for some set of insults. I cannot expect that which is why I have no use for you.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

THis is the post I reacted to Sean. Thank you for clarifying that I had not missed something.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

As for interest to babblers -- the only judge is babblers. This is not up to you and your snide remark on this is deeply offensive.

True -- I dish it back to someone being an asshole.

So tell me Sean why is the statement below worthy of you calling the poster an asshole and what in the post required YOU to dish it back? The reason I asked you to restrain yourself is because there is nothing the matter with the statement nor was there any reference to you personally. You are attacking the poster and not the idea in his post.

Here’s an odd thread? PEI is the smallest province but has got babblers attention in this thread. 

My self they have too much representation as is. 

They should probably be amalgamated with Nova Scotia like cape breton was long ago.