What is heaven like?
June 11, 2011 - 4:31pm
You don't need to believe in order to have a picture in your head. For most of us, the concept - some concept - of an afterlife has been part of our cultural matrix since birth. All of us have certainly been exposed to it in various forms and media. I think most North Americans have some visual image of a heaven, some notion of how it's organized, who is allowed in, and even of what to expect and how to behave.
In one version, i imagine walking across a bridge to a grassy meadow and all my dead pets come to greet me. I'd be really disappointed if it turned out that a dog's idea of heaven is never having to speak human again. (A heaven without dogs is unthinkable.)
What's your afterlife?
Worms crawling through my eyesockets.
I think that scene from the movie Gladiator is a beautiful one. It's a gloriously sunny day, and Max looks out over a golden wheat field flowing in the breeze and sees his wife and child. He joins them.
For very many people, life beyond the grave is an impossibility. There is no scientific proof for it they say and so why bother? The skeptical part of me asks the same thing. But if there is no scientific proof of life after death, is there any circumstantial or otherwise evidence for it?
Steven(YouTube) talks about his near death experience in 1965. Apparently NDE's have certain things in common, and one of them is experiencing standing near a stream or river and seeing loved ones. And there is some reference point beyond which there is no return to an earthly physical existence.
From Christopher Marlowe
Faustus; Where art thou damned?
Mephistopheles: In hell.
Faustus: How comes it then that thou are out of hell?
Mephistopheles: Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it.
Same thing with heaven, IMO - it is completely internal. If you don't know what heaven is here and now, you never are going to know it, because I seriously doubt there is anything after this.
The coffee klatch guys down at Tim Horton's must think you're a genus.
The coffee klatch guys down at Tim Horton's must think you're a genus.
Homo, you mean? or is the Tim Hortons reference meant to imply that I am a member of Sus? You might know better than me, since I don't really get the point.
And although I don;t have the time to hang out at tim hortons, neither do I think it is very fair to use it as a put-down.
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but to get back to the point, I certainly feel a lot more like I am in heaven now than I did 15 years ago.
The coffee klatch guys down at Tim Horton's must think you're a genus.
Homo, you mean? or is the Tim Hortons reference meant to imply that I am a member of Sus? You might know better than me, since I don't really get the point.
And although I don;t have the time to hang out at tim hortons, neither do I think it is very fair to use it as a put-down.
Well if youre clever enough to quote 16th century English poets, I think you might also be capable of understanding that there is no scientific proof against there being a heaven of some sort.
And so if we already know that you are not here to provide us with hard scientific proof here in the 21st century that is contrary to the thread topic of interest, then you might also not be serious about discussing the actual thread topic. Am I right?
Actually, the whole notion of heaven as something unattainable here, and which is just a payoff after you die for which you must suffer and sacrifice here, is the ultimate swindle of religion.
Who said anything about scientific proof, Fidel? There is no scientific proof about any afterlife.
I said I seriously doubt it. That is a personal opinion. And more importantly as I said in my last (cross-posted with you) comment. It doesn't matter whether heaven exists or not, because really its only purpose has been as a carrot to get people to follow organized religion.
You want heaven? Make it right here and now - unless you think the banks won't let you.
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And I am quite serious about the thread topic. As I said, I think heaven and and hell are states of mind.
Actually, the whole notion of heaven as something unattainable here, and which is just a payoff after you die for which you must suffer and sacrifice here, is the ultimate swindle of religion.
Okay? But what if the idea of an afterlife, a heaven let's say, pre-exists organized religion and even civilized society? What if the notion for a heaven of some sort is older than even organized swindle itself?
For example, state-funded health care in the US is a wonderful idea. It saves a lot of lives even though it may be rife with multi-billion dollar swindles. But should they scrap it altogether and go without? Is there no need to explore the idea of publicly funded health care any further because the US model for it is deeply flawed and some would say disgraceful to rich countries in general?
Okay we get that already. But try following absentia's suggestion for atheists in line one of post 1. Use your imagination. You do have one?
It doesn't matter. It is all just a reflection of what we experience here and now, and it does not matter if it exists.
The point is, people who see heaven as a big retirement party and something unattainable in this life are just fooling themselves, and missing out on something important in life, IMO.
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I think most of us have an understanding of perfect happiness, love and peace, at least in flashes, and that is heaven.
Actually, the whole notion of heaven as something unattainable here, and which is just a payoff after you die for which you must suffer and sacrifice here, is the ultimate swindle of religion.
Okay? But what if the idea of an afterlife, a heaven let's say, pre-exists organized religion and even civilized society? What if the notion for a heaven of some sort is older than even organized swindle itself?
For example, state-funded health care in the US is a wonderful idea. It saves a lot of lives even though it may be rife with multi-billion dollar swindles. But should they scrap it altogether and go without? Is there no need to explore the idea of publicly funded health care any further because the US model for it is deeply flawed and some would say disgraceful to rich countries in general?
Okay we get that already. But try following absentia's suggestion for atheists(or those with extremist points of view regarding an afterlife) in line one of post 1. Use your imagination. You do have one?
I sometimes wonder what I will come back as in my next life. I spend as much time on contemplation of heaven or hell as I do in contemplating the nature of the divinity of a man supposedly born a couple of millennia ago. Which is to say I never think about dumb ideas like those.
You cannot prove or disprove the existence of god or an afterlife. I took a religious compass type test on line once and discovered my idea of god and the afterlife most closely resembles a minor buddhist sect. They don't believe in heaven either.
I also spend absolutely no time contemplating what life would be like in a free market.
Okay we get that already. But try following absentia's suggestion for atheists in line one of post 1. Use your imagination. You do have one?
I don't need to use my imagination. When I am with my family; when I work in my garden; when I get glimpses of how incredible the wheel of life is, how the universe functions, and some of the selfless acts that people have done, that is heaven.
And here i thought it would be nice to take time out of argument and contention, to just sit back and imagine....
I think most North Americans have some visual image of a heaven, some notion of how it's organized, who is allowed in, and even of what to expect and how to behave.
I think any that do are dreaming in Technicolor. But then I know that most of the ones who dream of going to heaven when they meet me are convinced I will go to hell. But then they are only dreaming and it seems like fun to them.
And here i thought it would be nice to take time out of argument and contention, to just sit back and imagine....
Didn't take Beelzebub and his satanocracy gladio minions into account, dija?
Yup. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Or were we expecting cream cheese commercials?
If we are talking about heaven as a real thing, it has nothing to do with escapism, but rather finding where your home really is and how you really want to live.
Good topic, by the way. Thanks.
The point is, people who see heaven as a big retirement party and something unattainable in this life are just fooling themselves, and missing out on something important in life, IMO.
The Church has basically taught people to believe in a heaven that is exclusive to only the most perfect people. For many people both religious and atheist alike, they were taught that heaven is an eternal life of harp-playing and floating on clouds. Or that heaven is a life without pain, or that heaven is eternal bliss.
And for very many people those images are intolerable. It would be a hellish experience for some people to exist in such a way without challenges or suffering any ill consequences. What a monstrous idea they think to themselves. And I tend to agree with them. How mind-numbingly boring it would be. I might even pray for death myself.
It would be almost as boring as someone else's interpretation of what they deem to be bliss here on earth. Someone else's vision of the good life in this earthly realm can be another man's hell.
And so religious scholars today say that ancient writings do not describe heaven in the traditional way of cloud serfing and endless harp playing. In fact the bible and other religious texts describe heaven quite differently.
That's wonderful. But my vision of heaven is of an imperfect one. My image of heaven is filled with endless adventure, great challenges and magnificent experiences beyond the wildest earth-centric imaginations.
What happens to caterpillars? Do they sleep perchance to dream of a more heavenly life fluttering through the air?
Talk about extremes?:)
Materialism:
The point is I think, is in how we can create "our own despair" in our observation of the subjectiveness of our own Gravity? This then comes as a weighted part of our being in measure and moving in the world? What if there was a way to feel much lighter and weighing of these subjective things?
That's wonderful. But my vision of heaven is of an imperfect one. My image of heaven is filled with endless adventure, great challenges and magnificent experiences beyond the wildest earth-centric imaginations.
I think that is only a concern if you think of heaven as a permanent state divorced from our real world, And really, even if you think of the cornyest idea of heaven, can you imagine anyone who would want to be in ANY completely static environment for all eternity?
Heaven is like a more personal equivalent of our ideal political structure, which will never exist in reality, but which inspires us to work to create a better world.
And there's this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Heaven
What Dreams May Come
When Chris enters the house, he finds that she doesn't recognize him. Pale, gaunt, and miserable-looking, Annie isn't fully aware that she's dead. He talks to her gently, pretending to be a neighbor, before he is able to gain enough of her trust to reach her for a moment. In guilt and disbelief, Annie screams and pushes him away, and a saddened Chris realizes he has failed. He tells his insane wife a last good-bye, and leaves the house. The Tracker consoles him, and Chris tells him he has given up."But," he adds, "Not the way you think."
He asks the Tracker to give his love to his children, and re-enters the house. Taking his wife's hand, he tells her he won't leave her. He's decided to stay forever in hell and join her in madness rather than leave her again. Somehow, this sacrifice reaches Annie when nothing else can, and she and Chris pull each other out of the miasma of hell, narrowly escaping. What Dreams May Come is a 1978 novel by Richard Matheson about the afterlife.
The point is I think, that even if your dead and you say your dead, it's true:) It's a question of how much importance you place on distinguishing between the reality( the hard things of matter) of what your living subjectively and what continues unabated? So you tend to believe that you live, as if these things never die. Or, that you want never want to become lost in some fog of your uncontrolled thinking, and that any book of dying, is really a book about living. It about what not to hold onto in the last minutes versus living a virtual nightmare of fear and discomfort(hell)?
So the picture above is quite the illusory image of playing with all things subjective and unreal. Playing with "matter and energy?"
Missed a couple of posts there, so this won't make sense. My fault for not using the quote function.
I do dream in colour. Not techni, just natural.
In order to feel light, you'd have to leave your body behind. Not like the JW's, clumping around the sky in their bulky, outworn flesh. More like the Catholics, in their white gowns and wings. I can see the fundies forever getting up petitions to have the gay couples de-haloed. And what arrangements for the Muslim population?
My brother used to speculate that the last thing you're aware of before death is your eternity, and that makes a horrible kind of sense. I reject it. I want everyone to have the heaven of their own dreams - wherever, whenever.
I'd like to believe in an afterlife, but I suspect that when we die, that's it. Maybe there's a bit of a light show put on by our dying brains, but heaven as a reward for earthly suffering doesn't enter into my concept of the universe.
Earthly heaven is something else entirely. Sitting in my yard reading a good book, while the cat plays with butterflies in the garden. I remember a time when my most vigorous outdoor activity was walking to the food bank and not even contemplating having a yard, never mind the time to relax and enjoy a good book in it. It's that difficult time in life that makes the simple things so sweet - that's heaven. Pedestrian and bourgeois as it is, I can think of nothing better.
Winstanley's comment that priests had it both ways is true. Tibetan monks, for example, lived off the sweat and toil of peasants for centuries without lifting a finger themselves. And for centuries before Winstanley and the diggers, though, the abbeys, monasteries and friaries served to provide England's first social services to the poor. Scholars today mourn the loss of hundreds or thousands of books of antiquity with the sacking and looting that went on. But it started as a campaign by Protestants loathing Catholicism and aimed their anti-clerical rhetoric at mostly literate Englishmen who would benefit personally by the land grabs and looting of historical buildings and vast lands owned by the Church then. Much of the stone of the abbeys and priories went to building mansions for rich lords and dukes. Seemingly overnight dry stone walls and hedges were erected to cordone off the land from use by common rabble. Much hunger and suffering among English peasants was the result.
Conclusion:The state of mind of the observer plays a crucial role in the perception of time.Einstein
SPOILER ALERT:
To make a very, very long story short we discovered via Christian Shephard aka Jack’s dead father that all of the people on Oceanic 815 including Desmond, Daniel, Charlotte, Kate, Sawyer, Miles, Lapidus, Claire, Sayid, Sun, Jin, Richard, Michael, Walt, Miles, Ana Lucia, Locke, Hurley and Benjamin did really live on the island but when they died they moved on to L.A for their afterlife where they had the life that they always dreamed off. In The End we learned that those who did eventually find a way to forgive the people who hurt them , and forgave themselves were reunited with the people who meant something to them an went to heaven.See:Lost Finale Explanation:Lost Purgatory Ending Theories
I'd like to believe in an afterlife, but I suspect that when we die, that's it. Maybe there's a bit of a light show put on by our dying brains, but heaven as a reward for earthly suffering doesn't enter into my concept of the universe.
Apparently scientists have ruled out something called temporal lobe epilepsy as explaining the near death experience in its entirety. There are aspects of the NDE which are common across cultures and ethnicities with varying belief systems.
I think Pam Reynolds' NDE is an amazing story. Her diagnosis was basically a death sentence. She didn't have much hope on the way to see a specialist for treatment.
See that's the thing, no matter what you choose to believe, it is what you believe that sets the reality for you. That's just the way it is.
What is "your sin" and what is "your truth" and how are you living according to the things you weight in your own life according to that truth? Your conscience weights many things and is a really deep part of the soul?:) At night, you listen to it. At night, it creates realities for you? At night, you are a good predictor? You should listen:)
So I got up and I jumped onto my cardio glider, which is a full-body exercise machine. And I'm jamming away on this thing, and I'm realizing that my hands looked like primitive claws grasping onto the bar. I thought "that's very peculiar" and I looked down at my body and I thought, "whoa, I'm a weird-looking thing." And it was as though my consciousness had shifted away from my normal perception of reality, where I'm the person on the machine having the experience, to some esoteric space where I'm witnessing myself having this experience.Stroke of insight: Jill Bolte Taylor
Bold added for emphasis.
I'd like to believe in an afterlife, but I suspect that when we die, that's it. Maybe there's a bit of a light show put on by our dying brains, but heaven as a reward for earthly suffering doesn't enter into my concept of the universe.
Earthly heaven is something else entirely. Sitting in my yard reading a good book, while the cat plays with butterflies in the garden. I remember a time when my most vigorous outdoor activity was walking to the food bank and not even contemplating having a yard, never mind the time to relax and enjoy a good book in it. It's that difficult time in life that makes the simple things so sweet - that's heaven. Pedestrian and bourgeois as it is, I can think of nothing better.
I don't believe it, either. This is just a mental game i play: furnish heaven. Moments like that - a perfect sunset, a beautiful tree, a warm night breeze in Vegas, a pebly beach on Vancouver Island, a red fleece vest, the bluejay outside my window doing that pleasant little warble instead of his usual racous call, chocolate mousse, Mozart, irises, a good joke - i collect them to take into the next world.
Of course if i'm destined to start over as a baby dinasour on an orange/purlple planet, it'll probably all get confiscated at the exit.
See that's the thing, no matter what you choose to believe, it is what you believe that sets the reality for you. That's just the way it is.
I "got" your post about materialism at #20 btw. I realize some people think of reality in the old scientific way. Newtonian atomic theory had to be scrapped sometime after turn of the last century.
I think there are many possibilities for reality in the scientific sense. Apparently M-theory says there are 10^500 different universes, each with its own set of laws for the way things are. Could there be a god or god-like beings residing in one of them? Are we able to experience some of these parallel worlds by our dream states, imaginations, creativity and even on psychic levels as Fritjof Capra suggests? Apparently the possibilities are more than we knew. Atheists say no, but mathematicians and leading edge theoretical physicists say yes, it is possible and more probable than at any time since the overthrow of Newtonian atomic theory.
Heaven doesn't have a ruling class. No god(s), no seraphim or cherubim or saints. Pure, sweet anarchy.
The probability outcome is a deviation from what was perfect(asymmetrical). You can call it heaven if you like too?:) In a Platonist kind of view. It is speaking to an outcome situated in the valley from such an expression, as to what can reside in that valley. Think of a pencil pointed standing on end and asking which way it will fall. It is a example of the geometrical demonstration of "degrees of freedom" as to the model of a calabi yau in expression. Which one?
Worms crawling through my eyesockets.
Ha! That is almost precisely what I was thinking!
I am glad you got to know me. It also present the opportunity for understanding a model of approach that is as old as time itself in terms of the densities of matter perspectives as a overarching description in the expression of the geometrical proponents of the Pyramid itself.
The earth discipleship based on the square and the direction viewed from above(triangle and arch), as to perfection within the body itself?
An ascent with mind as to what can transpire in reaching toward the inductive/deductive approach as to what can enter mind when raised from the lower centers of our evolution, to avenues of mind with body. Not just from reaction of body alone. This is an emotive correlation with overcoming this primitive based expressions, as ever the struggle toward such perfection. No one is perfect, but of awareness about choice, then such evolution is of a choice recognized as being retained in our quest toward truth and understanding, allocates our place in the reality of our expressions?
I have read some stuff on bio-centrism and I think the model they are working within is extremely interesting. I believe that matter and energy are not separate. What does animate all animals and life forms? Does the energy that is a part of my whole exist after this body dies? I think it is obvious that in a physical sense it does. Heaven myths seem to me to all be attempts to capture that reality. Although we die our bodies both as mass and energy get recycled in new forms.
In modern everyday life, however, we’ve come to regard space as sort of a vast container that has no walls. In it, we cognize separate objects that were first learned and identified. These patterns are blocked out by the thinking mind within boundaries of color, shape or utility. Human language and ideation alone decide where the boundaries of one object end and another begins.
Multiple illusions and processes routinely impart a false view of space. Shall we count the ways? 1. Empty space is in fact not empty. 2. Distances between objects can and do mutate depending on a multitude of conditions like gravity and speed, so that no bedrock distance exists anywhere, between anything and anything else. 3. Quantum theory casts serious doubt about whether even distant individual items are truly separated at all, and 4. We “see” separations between objects only because we have been conditioned and trained, through language and convention, to draw boundaries.
Now, space and time illusions are certainly harmless. A problem only arises because, by treating space as something physical, existing in itself, science imparts a completely wrong starting point for investigations into the nature of reality. In reality there can be no break between the observer and the observed. If the two are split, the reality is gone. Space, like time, is not an object or a thing. Space and time are forms of our animal sense perception. We carry them around with us like turtles with shells. Thus, there is no absolute self-existing matrix in which physical events occur independent of life.
Where do we go from here?
Biocentrism offers a springboard to make sense of aspects of biological and physical science which are currently insensible. Natural areas of biocentric research include the realm of brain-architecture, neuroscience, and the nature of consciousness itself. Another is the ongoing research into artificial intelligence. Though still in its infancy, few doubt that this century, in which computer power and capabilities keep expanding geometrically, will eventually bring researchers to confront the problem in a serious way. A “thinking device” will need the same kind of algorithms for employing time and developing a sense of space that we enjoy.
Finally, one must consider the endless ongoing attempts at creating “grand unified theories.” Currently such efforts in physics have typically stretched for decades without much success. Incorporating the living universe — and allowing the observer into the equation as the late John Wheeler insists is necessary — will at minimum produce a fascinating amalgam of the living and non-living in a way that should make everything work better. It should provide stronger bases for solving some of the problems associated with quantum physics and the Big Bang. Accepting space and time as forms of animal sense perception (as biologic), rather than as external physical objects, offers a new way of understanding everything from the microworld (for instance, the reason for Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle and the two-hole experiment) to the forces, constants, and laws that shape the universe.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31393080/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/biocentrism-how-life-creates-universe/
It also present the opportunity for understanding a model of approach that is as old as time itself in terms of the densities of matter perspectives as a overarching description in the expression of the geometrical proponents of the Pyramid itself.
The earth discipleship based on the square and the direction viewed from above(triangle and arch), as to perfection within the body itself?
An ascent with mind as to what can transpire in reaching toward the inductive/deductive approach as to what can enter mind when raised from the lower centers of our evolution, to avenues of mind with body. Not just from reaction of body alone. This is an emotive correlation with overcoming this primitive based expressions, as ever the struggle toward such perfection. No one is perfect, but of awareness about choice, then such evolution is of a choice recognized as being retained in our quest toward truth and understanding, allocates our place in the reality of our expressions?
Aside from "Huh?" in generaL, i have a question in particular:
"a model of approach that is as old as time itself"
Who was approaching and modeling at the beginning of time? Itself?
It also present the opportunity for understanding a model of approach that is as old as time itself in terms of the densities of matter perspectives as a overarching description in the expression of the geometrical proponents of the Pyramid itself.
The earth discipleship based on the square and the direction viewed from above(triangle and arch), as to perfection within the body itself?
An ascent with mind as to what can transpire in reaching toward the inductive/deductive approach as to what can enter mind when raised from the lower centers of our evolution, to avenues of mind with body. Not just from reaction of body alone. This is an emotive correlation with overcoming this primitive based expressions, as ever the struggle toward such perfection. No one is perfect, but of awareness about choice, then such evolution is of a choice recognized as being retained in our quest toward truth and understanding, allocates our place in the reality of our expressions?
Aside from "Huh?" in generaL, i have a question in particular:
"a model of approach that is as old as time itself"
Who was approaching and modeling at the beginning of time? Itself?
Omega Point is a term coined by the French Jesuit Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955) to describe a maximum level of complexity and consciousness towards which the universe appears to be evolving.
David Deutsch(atheist) has done a lot of work with the Church-Turing thesis and has suggested that universal quantum computers exist at the end of space-time in every universe and operated/controlled by "sentient beings". Deutsch suggests that information, as opposed to raw data, is part of an ever evolving complex and increasingly conscious universe(s).
Oh. I know some words and could define most of those individually, but can find no meaning in this configuration. Well, i'm uneducated - the most esoteric thing i studied in tech school was blood-spatter.
Oh believe me when I say that I only vaguely understand what they are talking about in general. They are only theories for now, but the math seems to be pointing them in the direction of Hugh Everett's multiple worlds theory. Deutsch and Greene and Kaku and Witten etc are people at the leading edge of theoretical physics. This string theory stuff used to be considered only at the fringes of theoretical physics back in the 1970s. Today it's mainstream. Standard model theorist Larry Krauss is one of string theory's biggest critics. He wrote recently, though, that it seems as if metaphysics is on the verge of becoming science WRT new discoveries at CERN and Hubble etc.
It also present the opportunity for understanding a model of approach that is as old as time itself in terms of the densities of matter perspectives as a overarching description in the expression of the geometrical proponents of the Pyramid itself.
The earth discipleship based on the square and the direction viewed from above(triangle and arch), as to perfection within the body itself?
An ascent with mind as to what can transpire in reaching toward the inductive/deductive approach as to what can enter mind when raised from the lower centers of our evolution, to avenues of mind with body. Not just from reaction of body alone. This is an emotive correlation with overcoming this primitive based expressions, as ever the struggle toward such perfection. No one is perfect, but of awareness about choice, then such evolution is of a choice recognized as being retained in our quest toward truth and understanding, allocates our place in the reality of our expressions?
Aside from "Huh?" in generaL, i have a question in particular:
"a model of approach that is as old as time itself"
Who was approaching and modeling at the beginning of time? Itself?
Platonic Solids..... Plato?
An attempt, at a foundational approach to understanding the world.
I don't know about that. The last time there was a hint of revolt, we ended up with expulsions, eternal hell, and a talking snake that fucked us over royally. The literature suggests somebody's in charge of something.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
Babble Heaven :)
I don't know about that. The last time there was a hint of revolt, we ended up with expulsions, eternal hell, and a talking snake that fucked us over royally. The literature suggests somebody's in charge of something.
Oh, that literature! Read another book. Ra knows, there are plenty of models to choose from. But maybe i'll pass on Plato's.
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens
Cool music. However, Michio Kaku(YouTube) says it's a foregone conclusion that we are not alone in the heavens. It would be supremely arrogant to believe that we are the most significant beings in the whole universe, or even just the Milky Way. Unfortunately even some of us lefties are not immune to thinking in terms of dominant culture and Euro-centrism on a more subtle level.
Earth-centric thinking will one day give way to the realization that our own galaxy is teeming with life. Evolutionary theory now says that life proliferates in environments that were previously thought to be impossible for life. Sightings of visitors to the new world have been occurring for a long time. Like the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the new world, people all over the world have reported sightings of the newcomers' mainsails approaching on the horizon.
Biologists visit CERN for help with the origins of life.
And, the evidence that we are being observed by extraterrestrial intelligence is everywhere all around us. There are photographs of UFOs which pre-date Adobe's line of computer based photo and video editing software.
The problem today is not that people aren't willing to blow the whistle on every kind of written and unwritten government-corporate policy for secrecy and non-accountability to the public whom they serve - the problem is actually that of deep-seated corruption and lack of transparency and accountability in government and their corporate owners. The problem is a lack of democracy in countries professing to be the torch-bearers of democracy. The struggle for democracy and truth continues.
When I saw Fidel's name on the AT page next to this thread, I thought his would be a one-word answer to the query posed by this thread's title:
CUBA!!!
If I'm not mistaken, Gammy and Gampy will be there, and so will Rusty, who I haven't seen since he went to live with that nice farmer. We'll walk on clouds and it's always summer, and everything smells like cookies.
ewhat kinda cookies, maybe I am interested then?
If I'm not mistaken, Gammy and Gampy will be there, and so will Rusty, who I haven't seen since he went to live with that nice farmer. We'll walk on clouds and it's always summer, and everything smells like cookies.
Sounds like youre describing the ideologues' free market utopia. Keynesians refer to it as the political right's solemn promise that things will be better for a still significantly large and desperate humanity ... in the economic long run. Yes, there are some who actually do believe in the strangest things without demanding a shred of proof. At least religionists have the promise of an eternal afterlife as a reward for keeping the faith. Neoliberals promise only the economic long run which never seems to deliver for half to two-thirds of the world's population.
I asked you guys to share your childish, original, picturesque fantasies, not to present proofs.
Cuba could be an approximation of heaven on earth.* Fine climate, lovely people, a pretty okay social structure, plenty of brains, some decent attitude. Maybe on another thread we could explore how they should proceed.
*which is all right, but leaves little room for musical instruments, esoteric means of propulsion, chromatic idisyncrasy and puffy clouds.
When I saw Fidel's name on the AT page next to this thread, I thought his would be a one-word answer to the query posed by this thread's title:
CUBA!!!
I think it must be you and about 36% of Americans/Republican Party supporters who are obssessed with a tiny country in the Caribbean. Because I haven't mentioned Cuba in quite a while. Try turning yourself off of the omnipresent right wing radio/TV/newsprint propaganda for a time, and tell us how you feel then.
Taurean Scatology has always been one of my favorite subjects. I am glad to see it is alive and well on rabble.ca
And really, even if you think of the cornyest idea of heaven, can you imagine anyone who would want to be in ANY completely static environment for all eternity?
Exactly. Even during the most devout period of my youth I always felt deeply unsettled by the thought of spending eternity in heaven.
[...] (A heaven without dogs is unthinkable.)
If there are dogs, you are in purgatory.
If there are squirrels, you are in hell.
If there are cats, then, and only then, you are in heaven.
So Paul Martin winds up at the Pearly Gates and St. Pete says "Because you were a famous person you get to choose whether you want to go to heaven or hell". Martin opts to try heaven first, and it was very quiet, nice and bright, and full of people talking about Theology and praising the Lord. So after a few days of that he asks St. Pete to send him down to hell to check it out. Down he goes, and although the place is done up like Cherry Cola's Rock & Rollers bar, hell has nice ladies who look like Marilyn Monroe walking around serving nice drinks, cigars, cocaine and giving out their phone numbers. Not only that, but Trudeau and Nixon are down there too, and the conversation is amazing! After a few days of that he goes back to St. Pete to give him the final decision, and he opts for Hell.
Down he goes, and suddenly Hell is as depicted by Heironymous Bosch, with endless suffering, pain and torment, gnashing of teeth, wailing... Already in pain, he pleads with the Devil... "What happened to the place with the girls and the cigars and the drinks?"
"Oh you should know, Mr. Martin.... Promises...."
Keynesians refer to it as the political right's solemn promise that things will be better for a still significantly large and desperate humanity ... in the economic long run. Yes, there are some who actually do believe in the strangest things without demanding a shred of proof. At least religionists have the promise of an eternal afterlife as a reward for keeping the faith. Neoliberals promise only the economic long run which never seems to deliver for half to two-thirds of the world's population.
You're describing different flavours of the same snake oil. Well done.
Keynesians refer to it as the political right's solemn promise that things will be better for a still significantly large and desperate humanity ... in the economic long run. Yes, there are some who actually do believe in the strangest things without demanding a shred of proof. At least religionists have the promise of an eternal afterlife as a reward for keeping the faith. Neoliberals promise only the economic long run which never seems to deliver for half to two-thirds of the world's population.
You're describing different flavours of the same snake oil. Well done.
Well no because with the new science since Durac, Einstein, Bohr, and Heisenberg etc there is the possibility for both in a parallel universe or whatever the case may be. Both the capitalist economic long run and religion require faith to be believed, but religionists have always held that their utopia exists somewhere else. Capitalists are running the same shell game except with fewer rewards in the here and now for the large majority of humanity. At least one of these groups has been lying, and without any great scientific effort we know which of them is lying right off the bat without having to investigate infinity in all directions.
IOWs one of these man-made belief systems promises equality for all and everlasting life, punishment for the wicked, and barred entry into heaven for those who refuse to part from faith in materialism and personal wealth.
Evolution says that technically, anything is feasible given long enough periods of time. Immortality and scientific victories over hunger, disease, ignorance and material poverty are theoretically possible. Perhaps it's been done by some advanced species out there somewhere. We're too busy fighting one another and enslaving one another with debt servitude to afford serious space exploration and alternative energy sources in order to avoid ending ourselves. It's a stupid species, or at least a technologically adolescent species that designs a global economic system around dead plants and non-renawables as energy sources. Talk about bad central planning.
For capitalists this is heaven. Things couldn't be much better for them. There is little incentive for them to part with personal wealth and investing in the future. Capitalism is all about investing the least and extracting the most ASAP without much thought for the future. Predatory capitalism and aggressive behaviours in general are throwbacks in human evolution. We will probably not evolve into much until we change our ways. Capitalism is month-to-month balance sheet planning and quarterly earnings projections. It's short term with no regard for advancing evolution. It's threatening every living thing on earth by pollution, resource stripping, and an economic system designed around artificial scarcity or using up and wasting resources. Wars of aggression and resource depletion whichever comes first will end us before we have a chance to develop technologies of the future.
But this is how the world is run by a mafia-like hierarchy of thundering nit wits and evil-clever monkeys with highly evolved senses of self-interest and appalling greed. And democracy is the cure for economic and evolutionary stagnation caused by these low forehead types monopolizing power. Democracy is the holy grail for us socialists who believe that heaven has to exist in our own minds before it can be realized. Anything is possible according to the new science and socialists alike. I believe that the new science since turn of the last century and old world religious ideas are merging in a way. We have to believe though, because there is a spark of divinity in every one of us. We have the capability for achieving great things larger than ourselves and contributing to a greater good. We can't allow these supreme idiots in power to hold back human evolution for much longer. We have to outsmart them and beat them at their own game for the sake of the future. Our future that is and not their's because the right doesn't believe in promoting or investing in any viable future for humanity. Predatory capitalism is a dead end for humanity, and the challenge is to try to change the path we're on.
Messiaen - Quatuor Pour La Fin Du Temps II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ngktQuGkI
The question of your Heaven Sounds like you should be asking, "what kind of Utopia would you live?"
No, i wasn't asking that - Utopia has been done already. (Can always have another go at it, i suppose.)
I just wondered what imaginary heavens people carried around in their heads. It's a place they must have heard about as children and have certainly seen in various fictional depictions. I was looking for no more than a little harmless fun and escapism.
Well, expert psychologists like Susan Blackmore say it's silly to imagine other worlds, parallel universes of reality, and even heaven. And yet modern science says it's not so silly, and that many things are possible now that were deemed not to be in relatively recent history. In fact, imagining other worlds of reality would have been an excercise in silliness in the 18th and even 19th century when heaven was declared to be silly a man-made notion, an absurd byproduct of seven world religions and nothing more.
My vision of heaven is similar to a Harry Potter novel or science fiction story where anything is possible. Anything at all.
I guess in developing the parameters of the question of "one's take on heaven," outside of mainstream, what ever the culture from which one is growing up, whether theoretical or not.....I understand the romance of what might be fun and escapism, is another's question of what really exists after we die or where we came from before we are born?
Not just our examples. Historical takes as well.
So I was quick to add scene's from movies, TV series, to show that your question is a popular one even though one might not like to couch it toward what they grew up with. Possibly, the parameter of question as to your heaven, was one of detaining youth according to a religion where they were not allowed to think outside of, but can do so now?
So having that freedom, one finds beauty outside of thinking with constraints? Thinking outside the box can be refreshing. Of course you don't have to sign up for it, just remember "you asked the question" and the drift can and will change. Humor is refreshing too.
Okay, I think I got it?:)
That statement Fidel might be one that is not true. Extra-dimensions is a contentious one and is in the process of being proofed at LHC(search for Higgs). The romance one might associate with it, can be dreamily stated as to imply "other worlds or parallel universes," but that is not what is being examined in the science of it.
Generalizations of the cube to dimensions greater than three are called hypercubes or measure polytopes. This article focuses on the 4D hypercube, the tesseract.
While not a scientist myself and a layman to boot, I have followed these scientists trying to gather their thoughts.
Flatland thinking( a race of rebels)or, artist geometrical impressionism of Dali or Escher(Penrose's Influence on Escher,) the Cubists("Monte Carlo methods" in relation to the scientists search for quantum gravity,) may help to extend the thinking around such parameters, while we here at babble dreamily ask the question of heaven?
Such mathematical equations may constrict the thinker, while others creatively are not so tightly held. Visual thinkers are not?
Arthur Miller
Miller has since moved away from conventional history of science, having become interested in visual imagery through reading the German-language papers of Einstein, Heisenberg and Schrödinger - "people who were concerned with visualization and visualizability". Philosophy was an integral part of the German school system in the early 1900s, Miller explains, and German school pupils were thoroughly trained in the philosophy of Immanuel Kant.
While we examine the features in our heads as visualization of heaven, this is part and parcel of what a good man like Dirac was able to do in terms of not only writing algebraic equations but was also very good at "visual imagery" as well. This balance is important....while I can only dream of being the mathematical expert as well to proof my own statements. But we have others who will help?.....ah no?....that's okay.
Imagine a world with no Anti-Matter? No equatorial axiomatic expressions of the universe?:) Just plain, Dark and Dead.:) Walking over a bridge in visualization is escapism....while there exists another side to the question?
See:Your Book's Never out at This Library
.... expert psychologists like Susan Blackmore say it's silly to imagine other worlds, parallel universes of reality, and even heaven. ...
And in one fell swoop, expert psychologists wipe out 70% of literature, 95% of cinema, 30% of scientific inspiration and a major source of comfort, joy and intellectual therapy for literate and illiterate alike. Oh well.
What Americans are reading
As was the case during the Middle Ages, the peasant masses need to believe in a paradisiacal afterlife to make up for the misery of their earthly existence.
In heaven one wouldn't have to make five edits to a single post just to eliminate formatting problems.
Great song, LTJ.
Hee hee heeeeeeeeee, Uncle John. Haven't heard an anti-Martin joke for ages.
What Americans are reading
As was the case during the Middle Ages, the peasant masses need to believe in a paradisiacal afterlife to make up for the misery of their earthly existence.
And just like in the middle ages, they manage to make it dead boring next to all their images of hell.
Spraking of which, anyone even bothered to read Dante's Paradiso?
Yeah, but just in an English translation.
Yeah, but just in an English translation.
Never managed it. Read La Vita Nuovo and Inferno, but that's it. I think the Dore etchings might have put me off.
But while we are on the subject, if I ever make it to Singapore this is on my list of places to visit:
http://www.spi.com.sg/spi_files/haw_par/main02.htm
As a side note, there is a page on that site - #5 - devoted to terrifying near death experiences that are the complete opposite of the tunnel, the bright light and the warm contented feeling we always hear about.
Interesting. In my heaven I can communicate telepathically in some way that adheres to laws of nature. I thought this was interesting:
"God Helmet" Inventor, Dr. Michael Persinger Discovers Telepathy Link in Lab Experiments 2009
Persinger says in another interview that he believes there are natural explanations for everything. The matter of consciousness is something else though, he says, and admits that it probably will not be discovered by contemporary science. The explanation for consciousness, he says, will require a real breakthrough for science sometime in the future.
It's looking more like Einstein's dynamic and participatory universe. Scientist as unobserved observer looking on is no longer accepted theory. Is someone or some thing, a "sentient being" or beings, observing us? Is the universe itself conscious?
Yes I followed this as well. The replications as to a induction of a skeptics mind? The God Spot. A failure. "Persinger was not disheartened by Dawkins' immunity to the helmet's magnetic powers."
Persinger's research forays are at the very frontier of the roiling field of neuroscience, the biochemical approach to the study of the brain. Much of what we hear about the discipline is anatomical stuff, involving the mapping of the brain's many folds and networks, aperformed by reading PET scans, observing blood flows, or deducing connections from stroke and accident victims who've suffered serious brain damage. But cognitive neuroscience is also a grab bag of more theoretical pursuits that can range from general consciousness studies to finding the neural basis for all kinds of sensations.It was the way subjectively Einstein was able to associate time in duration, as to a feeling? It was a thought experiment about a pretty girl.
What we have learned
We have found consciousness can be described as an emergent property of the complex electromagnetic process generated from predictable biochemical and biological processes. Although the terms soul and mind may have been useful at one time to describe this process, they are no longer required. They are more like the term "phlogiston" that was employed to describe why things burned before modern chemistry emerged. When there is no electrical current moving through the parts of a television, there is no picture. When the specific electromagnetic patterns are not generated within the brain structures there is no consciousness or awareness.
Some individuals with very different brain structures show different electromagnetic correlates that are associated with their ability to discern stimuli others cannot detect. Counter clockwise rotation of weak magnetic fields around the skull at specific rates of change (derivatives) can affect subjective time and allow the average person to experience many of the altered states reported by practitioners of mystical traditions as well as "paranormal" phenomena. The critical variables, like any chemical reaction, are the complexity and specificity of the temporal parameters. One component of consciousness may be "sequestered" within second or third derivatives of very narrow bands of changes in frequency within the theta range. Our calculations of resonance, based upon the power changes within quantitative electroencephalographic measures, suggest that one electromagnetic source of consciousness may actually exist within the 10 cm region outside of and surrounding the cranium.
I find that difficult to believe. Neurosurgeons and other medical specialists have reported evidence for consciousness as much as an hour and more after clinical death, ie. an absence of pulse, respiration, brainwave activity, no response to pupillary and corneal tests, and no cranial nerve reflex. IOWs, dead as a door nail.
I find that difficult to believe. Neurosurgeons and other medical specialists have reported evidence for consciousness as much as an hour and more after clinical death, ie. an absence of pulse, respiration, brainwave activity, no response to pupillary and corneal tests, and no cranial nerve reflex. IOWs, dead as a door nail.
Ya I know Fidel. Link was attached to http://www.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_research/conscious.htm, was where Persinger worked out of but this was back when I recorded as of November 05, 2006
At that time I also showed the following.
In Pioneering Study, Monkey Think, Robot DoBy SANDRA BLAKESLEE
http://www.wireheading.com/brainstim/thoughtcontrol.html
Monkey Moves Computer Cursor by Thoughts Alone, By E.J. Mundell-
http://www.wireheading.com/brainstim/thought.html
I believe that ideas generated, are as much about a point of where, what is self evident is to imply, that such a last question resonates within the whole mind. It is ready and waiting for access through those neurological synapses. I mean, this is still about our universe and everything in it. About heaven existing all around us, and situated within that space.
continued here
what is heavan like? heavan on earth would be like star trek, no race or gender discrimination, just everyone living together. In a spiritual realm heavan would be all forgiveness, such that no soul is held accountable for physical sin.
I'm amazed that no-one has posted this yet:
the Chefs are French
The Police are British
the Mechanics are German
the Lovers Italian
and it's all organized by
the Swiss
Hell is where
the Chefs are British
The Police are German
the Mechanics are French
the Lovers are Swiss
and it's all organized by
the Italians.
I'm glad you didn't link, abnormal. I got in trouble the last time i repeated that joke.
I'm amazed that no-one has posted this yet:
the Chefs are French
The Police are British
the Mechanics are German
the Lovers Italian
and it's all organized by
the Swiss
Hell is where
the Chefs are British
The Police are German
the Mechanics are French
the Lovers are Swiss
and it's all organized by
the Italians.
Eurocentirc much?
Norther Shoveler, I dare you to transpose that joke into any other ethnic centricity.
No thanks, stereotyping is not my forte.
Norther Shoveler, I dare you to transpose that joke into any other ethnic centricity.
As an exercise t could certainly be done. The problem is that it is not fair game to make jokes about those who are not European or white North American, and I have no desire to be shown the door.
Though some of the things which have more to do with a country's politics might not actually be racial stereotyping
And it also might not be a stereotyping to say I don't want to repeat the experience I had of being served up one-inch cubes of solid pork fat (deep fried) covered in ketchup in a certain Asian restautant (though it was from a country which had a lot of European influence in its cuisine, so perhaps I am safe after all).
I only said that because NS commented on the Eurocentricity of an old European joke. Of course you can't say those kinds of things anymore - and most certainly not about non-Europeans.... Maybe it's not even funny anymore. But i'm quite sure it would not be funny as:
The chefs are Canadian.
The police are Canadian.
The lovers are Canadian.
The mechanics are Canadian.
The whole thing is organized by the Harper Government.
Nor would it be heaven.
Yeah I suspected as much. I'm joking too.
I guess I don't share your amusement at stereotyping. I don't find it funny. I find it useless tripe and comedians that use merely that level of stereotyping get the hook off my TV very quickly.
Different strokes for different folks. Like I said stereotyping is not my forte.
You both would like my friend Tony's approach to stereotyping jokes. He just says the "ethnic."
Part of that is personal experience. I have Francophone cousins who grew up in Quebec and one summer when I was 12 or so and two of them where visiting with us we got into French and Anglo jokes. After about four jokes it was obvious to me that we knew exactly the same jokes just the insulted person in the joke involved was Anglo not French. I've never seen the humour in that kind of joke since.
Yes, yes, i got that whole thing about stereotyping. But that came after. Your original problem:
Eurocentirc much?
was unspecifc but apparently geographic. See, the peoples who featured in that joke had not understood the evils of stereotyping (that may, in fact, be a New World concept) and generally took pride in their national reputation for excellence in certain endeavours - and even in the flaws for which they were reknowned. Nobody was being insulted. The joke could not possibly be applied to any but European nations - at least, not by people with a hand-me-down European cultural base. (Plus, it's not permitted, to which circumstance i had already alluded.) But, heck, the horse has been dead a while; why not beat on it some more?
On the other hand, there are the observations our house guests made last night about Canada and Canadians - overly-friendly (for the most part), and a very different attitude when it comes to walking out of a restaurant beer-in-hand to have a smoke - that were completely accurate, though they were not mean-spirited in the least.
But speaking of heaven and hell and dead horses...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUv4ZxyDWnE
Othering is most definitely NOT limited to the New World as experienced by European expansionism.
The comments in the "joke" generalize about entire groups of people. The layperson's term for that is stereotyping.
It's 2011, I think the use of stereotyping should be filed away, but that's me.
Um, read the joke again.
Not all Canadians have a hand-me-down European cultural base. Hence NS's correct claim of Eurocentrism. Even in 1911, never mind 2011, Canada's population was made up of more than folks from Europe.
This dinosaur has sailed.
I don't see any problem with using stereotypes of Western European nations and culture for the sake of humour, given that they have enjoyed a privileged position in world politics and economy, and were the colonizers and oppressors of other nations and cultures - overwhelmingly indigenous.
I have no issue with an African person using stereotypes in his music to illustrate the division and violence that tribalism and politics bring to people (K-Naan, a Somali-Canadian from Mogadishu). It's when you, the oppressor or progeny of oppressors, apply stereotypes to a group that has been oppressed and does not enjoy economic and social power that is equal you that the stereotype fails the humour test.
Rebecca, is there a time frame whereby we determine oppressors and oppressed? History throughout western Europe saw most if not all western European countries under domination and oppression for extended periods of time. Just wondering what the historical cutoff should be.
@ Rebecca
Re making fun of Europeans:
Babble's house rules notwithstanding, t depends. Not all Europeans are equal, and certainly all those who may be on a relatively equal footing now were not 100 years ago. Ukrainians and Eastern European people (former members of the Austro Hungarian Empire, so technically European) were subject to horrible racism not that long ago, even though nowadays they are considered mainstream. Back then, they, along with Italians, Jews, Roma and a number of other European peoples, were not even considered "white".
Never mind people who were ostensibly of the same culture, but happened to speak slightly differently.
So while I get the rule about power (and agree with it in part). there is a lot about this which is VERY relative, very fluid, and specific to context.
Again.... speaking of heaven and hell.
Which of the nationalities in that joke qualify - either at present or at the time that joke was born (i'm guessing 1950's or sooner, since i heard it as a child) - as oppressed? Or even "other" to one another?
So i can apologize to the right victims.
I don't see any problem with using stereotypes of Western European nations and culture for the sake of humour, given that they have enjoyed a privileged position in world politics and economy, and were the colonizers and oppressors of other nations and cultures - overwhelmingly indigenous.
I have no issue with an African person using stereotypes in his music to illustrate the division and violence that tribalism and politics bring to people (K-Naan, a Somali-Canadian from Mogadishu). It's when you, the oppressor or progeny of oppressors, apply stereotypes to a group that has been oppressed and does not enjoy economic and social power that is equal you that the stereotype fails the humour test.
sorry I forgot this was a thread about the imperial religion. And of course Europeans go to heaven not like the heathen so I guess I must agree that this thread should be Eurocentric
I will try to get with the direction Rebecca. "Aren''t us frogs something. So irrational and ill equipped to do anything but cook food so rich it will kill you. But we do get to go to heaven especially if we have converted some of the heathen to the imperial religion. " How do they like me in Quebec so far do you think.
I will try to stay out of this Judea Christian love fest since I don't even believe in the absurd idea of heaven and hell and in fact have for a very long time seen that as the carrot and stick of the religious imperialist that have roamed the world from Europe for 600 years. I can't remember the African but I think he said it best. "The white man came and gave us a new god and the Good Book and in fair exchange they took our land and resources." It applies to Canada just as well.
Many people on this planet got pie in the sky from the Europeans and with it the chance to go to heaven. The Europeans in the oh to funny joke got the land and resources and praise for their superiority in most things that all humans endeavour to do well. I mean how can anyone compare a Japanese mind and a German mind when it comes to something like cars. And of course Thai cooking and Indian cooking pales in comparison to the French.
Heaven in this stupid joke is inhabited by Europeans where they still get to strut their cultural superiority as the best compared to any of those brown people who are inferior in all aspects listed in the joke. If they were in charge it clearly could not be heaven.
Hi Maysie.
I apologize to:
all of
The French.
The Italians.
The Swiss.
The English (and also Scots, Welsh, Irish and British).
The Germans.
The Europeans who were not mentioned in the joke.
The Africans who were oppressed and converted by Europens, who either did or did not figure in the heaven and hell depicted in the joke.
The Asians who were not mentioned in the joke, but might have been, and the Asians who would have been left out for lack of space, not lack of excellence or shortcomings.
Australians, both aboriginal and settler, for not even thinking of them.
First Nations of both the Americas (whatever those continents were called before) on general principles, but especially for implying that a joke about Europeans needs to be Eurocentric.
Canadians for suggesting that these funny clothes, official languages, churches, legal codes, music, sports, art and architecture to which we have become somewhat accustomed had their roots in Europe.
To everybody in the world for being born white and to everybody on babble for laughing.
Maysie for alerting her to a breach of protocol (even though i didn't commit any.)
and espcially to Northen Shoveler for the emotional turmoil i seem to have caused by starting this thread, which i then exacerbated by making fun of his objection to someone else's quote of someone-still-else's joke.
Maysie for alerting her to a breach of protocol (even though i didn't commit any.)
and espcially to Northen Shoveler for the emotional turmoil i seem to have caused by starting this thread, which i then exacerbated by making fun of his objection to someone else's quote of someone-still-else's joke.
Passive aggresive shit is all you've got to back up your frat boy world view and its oh so cool humour.
Stereotyping is a short and not particularly clever cut to humour. It's not, however, against babble policy. I've been guilty of mocking British food on this site, and wishing for a utopia where "the Germans" make the beer. It's true these are coarse and simplistic statements, which don't account for the diverse populations of both modern European nations. babblers still use German to insinuate fascist behaviour, like referring to Herr Harper's diktat. absentia's initial joke falls under these lines for me. Not particularly funny, but big deal. I mean, you're posting in a thread titled "What is Heaven like?" fer crissakes.
But as Rebecca points out, and I think as most posters in this thread would agree, anti-oppression politics are first and foremost about power. I think the charges of eurocentricism and stereotyping are true, if not particularly pressing, although the joke certainly participates in eurocentric narratives which are part and parcel of colonialism, european white supremacy, etc. I think the kind of vitriol levelled at absentia does not fit the crime of a clumsy joke. Of course, once we try to defend a joke like that from charges of stereotyping, we get ourselves into all sorts of trouble. absentia, I think your last comment in this thread is offensive and moves well beyond the parameters of your original "joke," and begins to mock what this site takes very seriously: the way language, power and oppression interact.
If you'd like to open a new thread about how stereotyping relates to babble policy, I'd be all ears. Or PM me or RW if you like. But I'm closing heaven's gates for length.