What is heaven like?

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remind remind's picture

ewhat kinda cookies, maybe I am interested then?

Fidel

Snert wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, Gammy and Gampy will be there, and so will Rusty, who I haven't seen since he went to live with that nice farmer.  We'll walk on clouds and it's always summer, and everything smells like cookies.

 

Sounds like youre describing the ideologues' free market utopia. Keynesians refer to it as the political right's solemn promise that things will be better for a still significantly large and desperate humanity ... in the economic long run.  Yes, there are some who actually do believe in the strangest things without demanding a shred of proof. At least religionists have the promise of an eternal afterlife as a reward for keeping the faith. Neoliberals promise only the economic long run which never seems to deliver for half to two-thirds of the world's population.

absentia

I asked you guys to share your childish, original, picturesque fantasies, not to present proofs.

Cuba could be an approximation of heaven on earth.* Fine climate, lovely people, a pretty okay social structure, plenty of brains, some decent attitude. Maybe on another thread we could explore how they should proceed.  

*which is all right, but leaves little room for musical instruments, esoteric means of propulsion, chromatic idisyncrasy and puffy clouds.

Fidel

Sven wrote:

When I saw Fidel's name on the AT page next to this thread, I thought his would be a one-word answer to the query posed by this thread's title:

CUBA!!!

Tongue out

I think it must be you and about 36% of Americans/Republican Party supporters who are obssessed with a tiny country in the Caribbean. Because I haven't mentioned Cuba in quite a while. Try turning yourself off of the omnipresent right wing radio/TV/newsprint propaganda for a time, and tell us how you feel then. Wink

Uncle John

Taurean Scatology has always been one of my favorite subjects. I am glad to see it is alive and well on rabble.ca

Freedom 55

6079_Smith_W wrote:

And really, even if you think of the cornyest idea of heaven, can you imagine anyone who would want to be in ANY completely static environment for all eternity?

 

Exactly. Even during the most devout period of my youth I always felt deeply unsettled by the thought of spending eternity in heaven.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

absentia wrote:

[...] (A heaven without dogs is unthinkable.)

 

If there are dogs, you are in purgatory.

If there are squirrels, you are in hell.

If there are cats, then, and only then, you are in heaven.

Uncle John

So Paul Martin winds up at the Pearly Gates and St. Pete says "Because you were a famous person you get to choose whether you want to go to heaven or hell". Martin opts to try heaven first, and it was very quiet, nice and bright, and full of people talking about Theology and praising the Lord. So after a few days of that he asks St. Pete to send him down to hell to check it out. Down he goes, and although the place is done up like Cherry Cola's Rock & Rollers bar, hell has nice ladies who look like Marilyn Monroe walking around serving nice drinks, cigars, cocaine and giving out their phone numbers. Not only that, but Trudeau and Nixon are down there too, and the conversation is amazing! After a few days of that he goes back to St. Pete to give him the final decision, and he opts for Hell.

Down he goes, and suddenly Hell is as depicted by Heironymous Bosch, with endless suffering, pain and torment, gnashing of teeth, wailing... Already in pain, he pleads with the Devil... "What happened to the place with the girls and the cigars and the drinks?"

"Oh you should know, Mr. Martin.... Promises...."

Slumberjack

Fidel wrote:

Keynesians refer to it as the political right's solemn promise that things will be better for a still significantly large and desperate humanity ... in the economic long run.  Yes, there are some who actually do believe in the strangest things without demanding a shred of proof. At least religionists have the promise of an eternal afterlife as a reward for keeping the faith. Neoliberals promise only the economic long run which never seems to deliver for half to two-thirds of the world's population.

You're describing different flavours of the same snake oil.  Well done.

Fidel

Slumberjack wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Keynesians refer to it as the political right's solemn promise that things will be better for a still significantly large and desperate humanity ... in the economic long run.  Yes, there are some who actually do believe in the strangest things without demanding a shred of proof. At least religionists have the promise of an eternal afterlife as a reward for keeping the faith. Neoliberals promise only the economic long run which never seems to deliver for half to two-thirds of the world's population.

You're describing different flavours of the same snake oil.  Well done.

Well no because with the new science since Durac, Einstein, Bohr, and Heisenberg etc there is the possibility for both in a parallel universe or whatever the case may be. Both the capitalist economic long run and religion require faith to be believed, but religionists have always held that their utopia exists somewhere else. Capitalists are running the same shell game except with fewer rewards in the here and now for the large majority of humanity. At least one of these groups has been lying, and without any great scientific effort we know which of them is lying right off the bat without having to investigate infinity in all directions. 

IOWs one of these man-made belief systems promises equality for all and everlasting life, punishment for the wicked, and barred entry into heaven for those who refuse to part from faith in materialism and personal wealth.

Evolution says that technically, anything is feasible given long enough periods of time. Immortality and scientific victories over hunger, disease, ignorance and material poverty are theoretically possible. Perhaps it's been done by some advanced species out there somewhere. We're too busy fighting one another and enslaving one another with debt servitude to afford serious space exploration and alternative energy sources in order to avoid ending ourselves. It's a stupid species, or at least a technologically adolescent species that designs a global economic system around dead plants and non-renawables as energy sources. Talk about bad central planning.

For capitalists this is heaven. Things couldn't be much better for them. There is little incentive for them to part with personal wealth and investing in the future. Capitalism is all about investing the least and extracting the most ASAP without much thought for the future. Predatory capitalism and aggressive behaviours in general are throwbacks in human evolution. We will probably not evolve into much until we change our ways. Capitalism is month-to-month balance sheet planning and quarterly earnings projections. It's short term with no regard for advancing evolution. It's threatening every living thing on earth by pollution, resource stripping, and an economic system designed around artificial scarcity or using up and wasting resources. Wars of aggression and resource depletion whichever comes first will end us before we have a chance to develop technologies of the future.

But this is how the world is run by a mafia-like hierarchy of thundering nit wits and evil-clever monkeys with highly evolved senses of self-interest and appalling greed. And democracy is the cure for economic and evolutionary stagnation caused by these low forehead types monopolizing power. Democracy is the holy grail for us socialists who believe that heaven has to exist in our own minds before it can be realized. Anything is possible according to the new science and socialists alike. I believe that the new science since turn of the last century and old world religious ideas are merging in a way. We have to believe though, because there is a spark of divinity in every one of us. We have the capability for achieving great things larger than ourselves and contributing to a greater good. We can't allow these supreme idiots in power to hold back human evolution for much longer. We have to outsmart them and beat them at their own game for the sake of the future. Our future that is and not their's because the right doesn't believe in promoting or investing in any viable future for humanity. Predatory capitalism is a dead end for humanity, and the challenge is to try to change the path we're on.

Caissa

Messiaen - Quatuor Pour La Fin Du Temps II

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ngktQuGkI

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

The question of your Heaven Sounds like you should be asking, "what  kind of Utopia would you live?"

absentia

No, i wasn't asking that - Utopia has been done already. (Can always have another go at it, i suppose.)

I just wondered what imaginary heavens people carried around in their heads. It's a place they must have heard about as children and have certainly seen in various fictional depictions. I was looking for no more than a little harmless fun and escapism.

Fidel

absentia wrote:
I just wondered what imaginary heavens people carried around in their heads. It's a place they must have heard about as children and have certainly seen in various fictional depictions. I was looking for no more than a little harmless fun and escapism.

 

Well,  expert psychologists like Susan Blackmore say it's silly to imagine other worlds, parallel universes of reality, and even heaven. And yet modern science says it's not so silly, and that many things are possible now that were deemed not to be in relatively recent history. In fact, imagining other worlds of reality would have been an excercise in silliness in the 18th and even 19th century when heaven was declared to be silly a man-made notion, an absurd byproduct of seven world religions and nothing more. 

My vision of heaven is similar to a Harry Potter novel or science fiction story where anything is possible. Anything at all.

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

absentia wrote:
You don't need to believe in order to have a picture in your head. For most of us, the concept - some concept - of an afterlife has been part of our cultural matrix since birth. All of us have certainly been exposed to it in various forms and media. I think most North Americans have some visual image of a heaven, some notion of how it's organized, who is allowed in, and even of what to expect and how to behave.

I guess in developing the parameters of the question of "one's take on heaven," outside of mainstream, what ever the culture from which one is growing up, whether theoretical or not.....I understand the romance of what might be fun and escapism, is another's question of what really exists after we die or where we came from before we are born?

Not just our examples. Historical takes as well.

So I was quick to add scene's from movies, TV series,  to show that your question is a popular one even though one might not like to couch it toward what they grew up with. Possibly,  the parameter of question as to your heaven, was one of detaining youth according to a religion where they were not allowed to think outside of, but can do so now?

So having that freedom, one finds beauty outside of thinking with constraints? Thinking outside the box can be refreshing. Of course you don't have to sign up for it, just remember "you asked the question" and the drift can and will change. Humor is refreshing too.

Okay, I think I got it?:)

absentia

Fidel wrote:

....  expert psychologists like Susan Blackmore say it's silly to imagine other worlds, parallel universes of reality, and even heaven. ...

And in one fell swoop, expert psychologists wipe out 70% of literature, 95% of cinema, 30% of scientific inspiration and a major source of comfort, joy and intellectual therapy for literate and illiterate alike. Oh well.

al-Qa'bong

In heaven one wouldn't have to make five edits to a single post just to eliminate formatting problems.

al-Qa'bong

Quote:
This is the number one best-seller in the US:  "HEAVEN IS FOR REAL, by Todd Burpo with Lynn Vincent. (Thomas Nelson.) A father recounts his 3-year-old son’s encounter with Jesus and the angels during an appendectomy."

What Americans are reading

 

As was the case during the Middle Ages, the peasant masses need to believe in a paradisiacal afterlife to make up for the misery of their earthly existence.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Great song, LTJ.

Hee hee heeeeeeeeee, Uncle John. Haven't heard an anti-Martin joke for ages.

6079_Smith_W

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Quote:
This is the number one best-seller in the US:  "HEAVEN IS FOR REAL, by Todd Burpo with Lynn Vincent. (Thomas Nelson.) A father recounts his 3-year-old son’s encounter with Jesus and the angels during an appendectomy."

What Americans are reading

 

As was the case during the Middle Ages, the peasant masses need to believe in a paradisiacal afterlife to make up for the misery of their earthly existence.

And just like in the middle ages, they manage to make it dead boring next to all their images of hell.

Spraking of which, anyone even bothered to read Dante's Paradiso?

al-Qa'bong

Yeah, but just in an English translation.

6079_Smith_W

al-Qa'bong wrote:

Yeah, but just in an English translation.

Never managed it. Read La Vita Nuovo and Inferno, but that's it. I think the Dore etchings might have put me off.

6079_Smith_W

But while we are on the subject, if I ever make it to Singapore this is on my list of places to visit:

http://www.spi.com.sg/spi_files/haw_par/main02.htm

 

As a side note, there is a page on that site - #5 - devoted to terrifying near death experiences that are the complete opposite of the tunnel, the bright light and the warm contented feeling we always hear about.

 

Fidel

Spectrum wrote:
Conclusion:The state of mind of the observer plays a crucial role in the perception of time.Einstein

Interesting. In my heaven I can communicate telepathically in some way that adheres to laws of nature. I thought this was interesting:

"God Helmet" Inventor, Dr. Michael Persinger Discovers Telepathy Link in Lab Experiments 2009

Quote:
"What we have found is that if you place two different people at a distance and put a circular magnetic field around both, and you make sure they are connected to the same computer so they get the same stimulation, then if you flash a light in one person's eye the person in the other room receiving just the magnetic field will show changes in their brain as if they saw the flash of light. We think that's tremendous because it may be the first macro demonstration of a quantum connection, or so-called quantum entanglement. If true, then there's another way of potential communication that may have physical applications, for example, in space travel."

Persinger says in another interview that he believes there are natural explanations for everything. The matter of consciousness is something else though, he says, and admits that it probably will not be discovered by contemporary science. The explanation for consciousness, he says, will require a real breakthrough for science sometime in the future. 

It's looking more like Einstein's dynamic and participatory universe. Scientist as unobserved observer looking on is no longer accepted theory. Is someone or some thing, a "sentient being" or beings,  observing us? Is the universe itself conscious?

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Fidel wrote:
And yet modern science says it's not so silly, and that many things are possible now that were deemed not to be in relatively recent history.

this increases his resistance to movement, in other words, he acquires mass, just like a particle moving through the Higgs field...

That statement Fidel might be one that is not true. Extra-dimensions is a contentious one and is in the process of being proofed at LHC(search for Higgs). The romance one might associate with it, can be dreamily stated as to imply "other worlds or parallel universes," but that is not what is being examined in the science of it.

Quote:
In geometry, the tesseract, or hypercube, is a regular convex polychoron with eight cubical cells. It can be thought of as a 4-dimensional analogue of the cube. Roughly speaking, the tesseract is to the cube as the cube is to the square.

Generalizations of the cube to dimensions greater than three are called hypercubes or measure polytopes. This article focuses on the 4D hypercube, the tesseract.

While not a scientist myself and a layman to boot, I have followed these scientists trying to gather their thoughts.

Quote:
Penrose's Influence on EscherDuring the later half of the 1950’s, Maurits Cornelius Escher received a letter from Lionel and Roger Penrose. This letter consisted of a report by the father and son team that focused on impossible figures. By this time, Escher had begun exploring impossible worlds. He had recently produced the lithograph Belvedere based on the “rib-cube,” an impossible cuboid named by Escher (Teuber 161). However, the letter by the Penroses, which would later appear in the British Journal of Psychology, enlightened Escher to two new impossible objects; the Penrose triangle and the Penrose stairs. With these figures, Escher went on to create further impossible worlds that break the laws of three-dimensional space, mystify one’s mind, and give a window to the artist heart.

Flatland thinking( a race of rebels)or, artist geometrical impressionism of Dali or Escher(Penrose's Influence on Escher,) the Cubists("Monte Carlo methods" in relation to the scientists search for quantum gravity,) may help to extend the thinking around such parameters, while we here at babble dreamily ask the question of heaven?

Such mathematical equations may constrict the thinker, while others creatively are not so tightly held. Visual thinkers are not?

While we examine the features in our heads as visualization of heaven, this is part and parcel of what a good man like Dirac was able to do in terms of not only writing algebraic equations but was also very good at "visual imagery" as well. This balance is important....while I can only dream of being the mathematical expert as well to proof my own statements. But we have others who will help?.....ah no?....that's okay.

Imagine a world with no Anti-Matter? No equatorial axiomatic expressions of the universe?:) Just plain, Dark and Dead.:) Walking over a bridge in visualization is escapism....while there exists another side to the question?

Books thrown in the air
See:Your Book's Never out at This Library

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

 

The God Helmet.

Quote:
It is used extensively by Michael Persinger, a neuroscientist at Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada. Persinger has published extensively about the effects on the human brain of the "complex" magnetic fields generated by the God helmet and other similar devices.[3]

Quote:

What we have learned

We have found consciousness can be described as an emergent property of the complex electromagnetic process generated from predictable biochemical and biological processes. Although the terms soul and mind may have been useful at one time to describe this process, they are no longer required. They are more like the term "phlogiston" that was employed to describe why things burned before modern chemistry emerged. When there is no electrical current moving through the parts of a television, there is no picture. When the specific electromagnetic patterns are not generated within the brain structures there is no consciousness or awareness.

Some individuals with very different brain structures show different electromagnetic correlates that are associated with their ability to discern stimuli others cannot detect. Counter clockwise rotation of weak magnetic fields around the skull at specific rates of change (derivatives) can affect subjective time and allow the average person to experience many of the altered states reported by practitioners of mystical traditions as well as "paranormal" phenomena. The critical variables, like any chemical reaction, are the complexity and specificity of the temporal parameters. One component of consciousness may be "sequestered" within second or third derivatives of very narrow bands of changes in frequency within the theta range. Our calculations of resonance, based upon the power changes within quantitative electroencephalographic measures, suggest that one electromagnetic source of consciousness may actually exist within the 10 cm region outside of and surrounding the cranium.

link dead

 

Fidel

Quote:
When there is no electrical current moving through the parts of a television, there is no picture. When the specific electromagnetic patterns are not generated within the brain structures there is no consciousness or awareness.

I find that difficult to believe. Neurosurgeons and other medical specialists have reported evidence for consciousness as much as an hour and more after clinical death, ie. an absence of pulse, respiration, brainwave activity, no response to pupillary and corneal tests, and no cranial nerve reflex. IOWs, dead as a door nail.

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Fidel wrote:

Quote:
When there is no electrical current moving through the parts of a television, there is no picture. When the specific electromagnetic patterns are not generated within the brain structures there is no consciousness or awareness.

I find that difficult to believe. Neurosurgeons and other medical specialists have reported evidence for consciousness as much as an hour and more after clinical death, ie. an absence of pulse, respiration, brainwave activity, no response to pupillary and corneal tests, and no cranial nerve reflex. IOWs, dead as a door nail.

Ya I know Fidel. Link was attached to http://www.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_research/conscious.htm,  was where Persinger worked out of but this was back when I recorded as of November 05, 2006

At that time I also showed the following.

In Pioneering Study, Monkey Think, Robot DoBy SANDRA BLAKESLEE

http://www.wireheading.com/brainstim/thoughtcontrol.html

Monkey Moves Computer Cursor by Thoughts Alone, By E.J. Mundell-

http://www.wireheading.com/brainstim/thought.html

I believe that ideas generated, are as much about a point of where,  what is self evident is to imply,  that such a last question resonates within the whole mind. It is ready and waiting for access through those neurological synapses. I mean, this is still about our universe and everything in it. About heaven existing all around us, and situated within that space.

continued here

 

scrotout

what is heavan like? heavan on earth would be like star trek, no race or gender discrimination, just everyone living together. In a spiritual realm heavan would be all forgiveness, such that no soul is held accountable for physical sin.

abnormal

I'm amazed that no-one has posted this yet:

 

Quote:
Heaven is where
the Chefs are French
The Police are British
the Mechanics are German
the Lovers Italian
and it's all organized by
the Swiss
 
Hell is where
the Chefs are British
The Police are German
the Mechanics are French
the Lovers are Swiss
and it's all organized by
the Italians.

absentia

I'm glad you didn't link, abnormal. I got in trouble the last time i repeated that joke.

Spectrum Spectrum's picture

Fidel wrote:
Persinger says in another interview that he believes there are natural explanations for everything. The matter of consciousness is something else though, he says, and admits that it probably will not be discovered by contemporary science. The explanation for consciousness, he says, will require a real breakthrough for science sometime in the future.

Yes I followed this as well. The replications as to a induction of a skeptics mind? The God Spot. A failure. "Persinger was not disheartened by Dawkins' immunity to the helmet's magnetic powers."

Persinger's research forays are at the very frontier of the roiling field of neuroscience, the biochemical approach to the study of the brain. Much of what we hear about the discipline is anatomical stuff, involving the mapping of the brain's many folds and networks, aperformed by reading PET scans, observing blood flows, or deducing connections from stroke and accident victims who've suffered serious brain damage. But cognitive neuroscience is also a grab bag of more theoretical pursuits that can range from general consciousness studies to finding the neural basis for all kinds of sensations.

 

Spectrum wrote: wrote:
Conclusion:The state of mind of the observer plays a crucial role in the perception of time.Einstein

It was the way subjectively Einstein was able to associate time in duration,  as to a feeling? It was a thought experiment about a pretty girl.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

abnormal wrote:

I'm amazed that no-one has posted this yet:

 

Quote:
Heaven is where
the Chefs are French
The Police are British
the Mechanics are German
the Lovers Italian
and it's all organized by
the Swiss
 
Hell is where
the Chefs are British
The Police are German
the Mechanics are French
the Lovers are Swiss
and it's all organized by
the Italians.

Eurocentirc much?

absentia

Norther Shoveler, I dare you to transpose that joke into any other ethnic centricity.

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

No thanks, stereotyping is not my forte.  

6079_Smith_W

absentia wrote:

Norther Shoveler, I dare you to transpose that joke into any other ethnic centricity.

As an exercise t could certainly be done. The problem is that it is not fair game to make jokes about those who are not European or white North American, and I have no desire to be shown the door.

Though some of the things which have more to do with a country's politics might not actually be racial stereotyping

And it also might not be a stereotyping to say I don't want  to repeat the experience I had of being served up  one-inch cubes of solid pork fat (deep fried) covered in ketchup in a certain Asian restautant (though it was from a country which had a lot of European influence in its cuisine, so perhaps I am safe after all).

 

6079_Smith_W

Yeah I suspected as much. I'm joking too.

absentia

I only said that because NS commented on the Eurocentricity of an old European joke. Of course you can't say those kinds of things anymore - and most certainly not about non-Europeans.... Maybe it's not even funny anymore. But i'm quite sure it would not be funny as:

The chefs are Canadian.

The police are Canadian.

The lovers are Canadian.

The mechanics are Canadian.

The whole thing is organized by the Harper Government.

 

Nor would it be heaven.

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

I guess I don't share your amusement at stereotyping.  I don't find it funny. I find it useless tripe and comedians that use merely that level of stereotyping get the hook off my TV very quickly.

Different strokes for different folks.  Like I said stereotyping is not my forte.

You both would like my friend Tony's approach to stereotyping jokes.  He just says the "ethnic."

Part of that is personal experience. I have Francophone cousins who grew up in Quebec and one summer when I was 12 or so and two of them where visiting with us we got into French and Anglo jokes.  After about four jokes it was obvious to me that we knew exactly the same jokes just the insulted person in the joke involved was Anglo not French.  I've never seen the humour in that kind of joke since.  

absentia

Yes, yes, i got that whole thing about stereotyping. But that came after.  Your original problem:

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Eurocentirc much?

was unspecifc but apparently geographic. See, the peoples who featured in that joke had not understood the evils of stereotyping (that may, in fact, be a New World concept) and generally took pride in their national reputation for excellence in certain endeavours - and even in the flaws for which they were reknowned. Nobody was being insulted. The joke could not possibly be applied to any but European nations - at least, not by people with a hand-me-down European cultural base. (Plus, it's not permitted, to which circumstance i had already alluded.) But, heck, the horse has been dead a while; why not beat on it some more?

6079_Smith_W

On the other hand, there are the observations our house guests made last night about Canada and Canadians - overly-friendly (for the most part), and a very different attitude when it comes to walking out of a restaurant beer-in-hand to have a smoke - that were completely accurate, though they were not mean-spirited in the least.

But speaking of heaven and hell and dead horses...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUv4ZxyDWnE

 

 

 

Maysie Maysie's picture

absentia wrote:
 See, the peoples who featured in that joke had not understood the evils of stereotyping (that may, in fact, be a New World concept)

Othering is most definitely NOT limited to the New World as experienced by European expansionism.

absentia wrote:
and generally took pride in their national reputation for excellence in certain endeavours - and even in the flaws for which they were reknowned.

The comments in the "joke" generalize about entire groups of people. The layperson's term for that is stereotyping.

It's 2011, I think the use of stereotyping should be filed away, but that's me. 

Quote:
Nobody was being insulted.

Um, read the joke again.

Quote:
The joke could not possibly be applied to any but European nations - at least, not by people with a hand-me-down European cultural base.

Not all Canadians have a hand-me-down European cultural base. Hence NS's correct claim of Eurocentrism. Even in 1911, never mind 2011, Canada's population was made up of more than folks from Europe.

This dinosaur has sailed.

MegB

I don't see any problem with using stereotypes of Western European nations and culture for the sake of humour, given that they have enjoyed a privileged position in world politics and economy, and were the colonizers and oppressors of other nations and cultures - overwhelmingly indigenous.

I have no issue with an African person using stereotypes in his music to illustrate the division and violence that tribalism and politics bring to people (K-Naan, a Somali-Canadian from Mogadishu).  It's when you, the oppressor or progeny of oppressors, apply stereotypes to a group that has been oppressed and does not enjoy economic and social power that is equal you that the stereotype fails the humour test.

Glenl

Rebecca, is there a time frame whereby we determine oppressors and oppressed? History throughout western Europe saw most if not all western European countries under domination and oppression for extended periods of time. Just wondering what the historical cutoff should be.

Todrick of Chat...

Rebecca West wrote:

I don't see any problem with using stereotypes of Western European nations and culture for the sake of humour, given that they have enjoyed a privileged position in world politics and economy, and were the colonizers and oppressors of other nations and cultures - overwhelmingly indigenous.

I have no issue with an African person using stereotypes in his music to illustrate the division and violence that tribalism and politics bring to people (K-Naan, a Somali-Canadian from Mogadishu).  It's when you, the oppressor or progeny of oppressors, apply stereotypes to a group that has been oppressed and does not enjoy economic and social power that is equal you that the stereotype fails the humour test.

absentia

Which of the nationalities in that joke qualify - either at present or at the time that joke was born (i'm guessing 1950's or sooner, since i heard it as a child) -  as oppressed? Or even "other" to one another?

So i can apologize to the right victims.

6079_Smith_W

@ Rebecca

Re making fun of Europeans:

Babble's house rules notwithstanding, t depends. Not all Europeans are equal, and certainly all those who may be on a relatively equal footing now were not 100 years ago. Ukrainians and Eastern European people  (former members of the Austro Hungarian Empire, so technically European) were subject to horrible racism not that long ago, even though nowadays they are considered mainstream. Back then, they, along with Italians, Jews, Roma  and a number of other European peoples, were not even considered "white".

Never mind people who were ostensibly of the same culture, but happened to speak slightly differently.

So while I get the rule about power (and agree with it in part). there is a lot about this which is VERY relative, very fluid, and specific to context.

Again.... speaking of heaven and hell.

 

 

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

sorry I forgot this was a thread about the imperial religion.  And of course Europeans go to heaven not like the heathen so I guess I must agree that this thread should be Eurocentric

I will try to get with the direction Rebecca.  "Aren''t us frogs something.  So irrational and ill equipped to do anything but cook food so rich it will kill you.  But we do get to go to heaven especially if we have converted some of the heathen to the imperial religion. "  How do they like me in Quebec so far do you think. 

I will try to stay out of this Judea Christian love fest since I don't even believe in the absurd idea of heaven and hell and in fact have for a very long time seen that as the carrot and stick of the religious imperialist that have roamed the world from Europe for 600 years.  I can't remember the African but I think he said it best.  "The white man came and gave us a new god and the Good Book and in fair exchange they took our land and resources."  It applies to Canada just as well.  

Many people on this planet got pie in the sky from the Europeans and with it the chance to go to heaven.  The Europeans in the oh to funny joke got the land and resources and praise for their superiority in most things that all humans endeavour to do well.  I mean how can anyone compare a Japanese mind and a German mind when it comes to something like cars. And of course Thai cooking and Indian cooking pales in comparison to the French. 

Heaven in this stupid joke is inhabited by Europeans where they still get to strut their cultural superiority as the best compared to any of those brown people who are inferior in all aspects listed in the joke.  If they were in charge it clearly could not be heaven.

Hi Maysie. 

absentia

I apologize to:

all of

The French.

The Italians.

The Swiss.

The English (and also Scots, Welsh, Irish and British).

The Germans.

The Europeans who were not mentioned in the joke.

The Africans who were oppressed and converted by Europens, who either did or did not figure in the heaven and hell depicted in the joke.

The Asians who were not mentioned in the joke, but might have been, and the Asians who would have been left out for lack of space, not lack of excellence or shortcomings.

Australians, both aboriginal and settler, for not even thinking of them.

First Nations of both the Americas (whatever those continents were called before) on general principles, but especially for implying that a joke about Europeans needs to be Eurocentric.

Canadians for suggesting that these funny clothes, official languages, churches, legal codes, music, sports, art and architecture to which we have become somewhat accustomed had their roots in Europe.

To everybody in the world for being born white and to everybody on babble for laughing.

Maysie for alerting her to a breach of protocol (even though i didn't commit any.)

and espcially to Northen Shoveler for the emotional turmoil i seem to have caused by starting this thread, which i then exacerbated by making fun of his objection to someone else's quote of someone-still-else's joke.

 

 

Northern Shoveler Northern Shoveler's picture

absentia wrote:

Maysie for alerting her to a breach of protocol (even though i didn't commit any.)

and espcially to Northen Shoveler for the emotional turmoil i seem to have caused by starting this thread, which i then exacerbated by making fun of his objection to someone else's quote of someone-still-else's joke.

Passive aggresive shit is all you've got to back up your frat boy world view and its oh so cool humour.

Tongue out

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