Tarek Fatah's Chasing a Mirage
Preface: I am an Indian Born in Pakistan; a Punjabi born in Islam; an immigrant in Canada with a Muslim consciousness, grounded in a Marxist youth. I am one of Salman Rushdie's many Midnight's Children: we were snatched from the cradle of a great civilization and made permanent refugees, sent in search of an oasis that turned out to be a mirage."
And then he really surprises (still in the preface) by saying that "Of all the ingredients that make up my complex identiry, being Canadian has had the most profound effect on my thinking. It isCanada that propels me to swim upstream to imitate with humility the giants who have ventured into uncharted waters before me. Men like Louis-Joseph Panineau,Tommy Douglas, Pierre Trudeau, and Norman Bethune; women like Agnes Pacphail, Rosemany Brown and Nellie McClung. For it is only here in Canada that I can speak out against the hijacking of my faith and the encroaching spectre of a new Islamic-fascism."
Who knew?
At least, I didn't know much about the history of Islam, ancient and recent, which is laid out in this work. Sure hope someone out there with a more complete knowledge has read Chasing a Mirage and can point to any shortcomings. Right now I'm in his hands.
Let me know what you think as you progress through this book, as I would like to read it. Fatah's is a very controversial figure for some here on babble, so I would imagine you will getting more comments on his alleged shortcomings soon.
Trust me, the slaughter of Tarek Fatah should begin sooner than you expect. Rabble has many Islamists who pose as if they are left-0f-centre and will slam his book without having read it.
As a Sikh, I was profoundly touched by how he chose to end the Preface by quoting from the founder of my faith, Guru Nanak. His chapter on Pakistan is deeply moving as he talks about a Punjab ripped into two by the departing British.
What about Bengal?
I am missing the reference in your sarcasm, unionist...care to explain?
No sarcasm. The Brits split Bengal on religious lines also, turning East Bengal into East Pakistan (until it became Bangladesh), just as part of Punjab became part of Pakistan. I was just aiming for completeness.
I assumed he was refering to the historical partition of Bengal into eat and west components, which was an extremely bloody undertaking, along religious lines.
I have not read the book, but I am not sure if Tarek has the necessary qualification and knowledge to discuss a complex issue such as contemporary Islam. His knowledge of Islamic faith is at best very shallow. I lost all respect for him when he blamed the victim in the case of Muslim woman in Germany who was murdered for her Hijab. Fatah effectively said: don't wear the Hijab so that they don't kill you!!
Unfortunately the muslim leaders in the west are mostly divided in two groups: One group defends almost everything muslims would do and protests anything a westerner would do, and the other group justifies eveything a westerner do and criticizes everything that a muslim does. Elmasri and fatah seem to be the two extreme ends in this example.
Fatah says he's written "an appeal to those of my co-religionists who are chasing the mirage of an Islamic State (who he hopes) stand up to the merchants of segregation who have fed us with myths and got us addicted to a forced sense of victimhood. "
We have " all but given up on the future, labelling modernity itself as the enemy."
he "hope(s) that, after reading this book, the conservative Republicans in the United States and their neo-conservative allies in the West will realize that in the battle of ideas, dropping bombs helps the foe, not the friend."
Fatah goes on in the preface to point to the themes of "poetry, song, and dance (that) are as much a part of our culture as piety, modesty and charity. Challenging authority, even the existence of God himself, has been part of our heritage, and some Muslims have even lived to tell that tale.
"For instance, take these lines from 19th-century India's giant Muslim poet Mirza Ghalib (in today's Islamic world he would be in hiding: 'Of course I know there is no such thing as Paradise, but, To fool oneself, one needs such pleasant thoughts Ghalib'."
He has laid out the book in three parts...the politics behind the Islamic State; "Islamic history from the power struggle that developed immediately after the death of the Prophet,through the four caliphates that followed and defined Islam in medieval times; "contemporary Islamic issues, including hihad, hijab, sharia law, and the agenda of Islamists in the West."
I am quite taken with his style and have needed the history...but I look forward to seeing real discussion on "contemporary Islamic issues."
I am not suggesting that his book is not on the right track; just that there are people with better knowledge and credentials to discuss issues such as the failure of the Islamic state and its impact on modern Islamic thoughts. I would suggest the works of Abdulkarim Soroush in particular. However if you like his style that's all good. Just make sure you double check the accuracy of the statements and facts in his books.
Rabble has many Islamists who pose as if they are left-0f-centre and will slam his book without having read it.
Pure slander. Hopefully you will not be here long enough to repeat it.
Aw, Coyote, go easy on bhagat. Don't you know people of religion A who hate people of religion B? It's quite common.
Bhagat, hear me clearly. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and Sikhism are equally childish superstitions, anti-scientific in nature, and which serve to make good people hate, fear, and scorn each other. We can despise religion, but we must respect people no matter what their faith. That's where Tarek Fateh falls down. He has trouble avoiding the Islamophobe meme.
Now, please say something against "fundamentalist" Sikhs so that we know you're not just a garden-variety Islamophobe (I know you're not, but others here may have their doubts). Consider this as a test.
Don't enlist me in an anti-religious rant, Unionist. I called him on slander. That's it.
I stand pretty comfortably in the religious tradition of the United Church, and of the Social Gospel. Childish though you think me and those like me.
I respect persons of faith, but no law of humanity or society requires me to speak politely about the Jesus-Allah-kosher stuff. And I'm not recruiting you into that.
But people of Religion A who are very good at condemning the "excesses" of Religion B are, in my book, the most dangerous of all the "faithful". And we have some of those on this board. Don't you agree that they deserve to be called out and condemned?
Goes a little farther afield than I was going, but of course I agree in general. I find nothing wrong, mind you, with differences being made clear: I'll go after those who claims to speak for christianity and attack women or homosexuals under that aegis; they're wrong.
But my point was that this has all the smell of trollery and slander of babblers, and that is something that i think we can unite together to oppose.
I agree with that, Coyote, and of course bhagat's comment is gratuitous and offensive - although I think it discloses even more than that, which is why I challenged him to say something nasty about Sikh extremists.
But since you've outed yourself as a UC adherent, could you do me a personal favour? Have a look at this and maybe let Rev. Gregersen know that you know at least one Jew who considers his comments to be uniquely anti-semitic and anti-Palestinian at the same time? I'm sure it will have more impact coming from you than from me.
Unionist and Coyote,
I have long given up on organized religion, but being a Sikh is not just a religious identity; it is cultural as well as geographical. This is why I have opposed the Sikh crazies who fought and died for a Sikh state of Khalistan.
Fatah's book is the first by a Muslim that shows empathy towards Sikhs, Hindus and Jews. He is a product of the Catholic school system and thanks his school and its 'Fathers' for helping him understand his faith and history.
My concern is with his co-religionists who slam him and his book without reading it. How can Sanizadeh pass judgement on Fatah and comment on his book while confessing she has not read and has no intention of reading it.
The book was shortlisted for the Donner Prize and has been reviewed by dozens of people. The least Sanizadeh should do is borrow it from the local library and pass judgement later instead of suggesting other authors.
You don't have to read every single utterance a man says in order to discover they are full of shit, or to critique his ideas. He is thoroughly dishonest intellectually and personaly. Interesting to discover he is a Catholic. I am not suprised. In his early days he claimed to be a Marxist atheist too, now he is "Muslim". In anycase what happened to that issue where he mades unauthorized use of the NDP mailing lists in order to forward his own political agenda?
i have had these disagreements within the church, Unionist, and I agree with you. I am very happy to have had a hand in several strong actions and statements on Israel/Palestine from my congregation(s) over time, and my Presbetry(s). I will certainly write him under my own name; I will let you know when and if I hear anything back.
bhagat, are you willing to withdraw your slander from your first post against Rabble and babblers?
i have had these disagreements within the church, Unionist, and I agree with you. I am very happy to have had a hand in several strong actions and statements on Israel/Palestine from my congregation(s) over time, and my Presbetry(s). I will certainly write him under my own name; I will let you know when and if I hear anything back.
Thank you.
And bhagat, I join Coyote in asking you to withdraw your slanderous comment. If sanizadeh is your example of an "Islamist", then it will take more than a dictionary to set you right. Sanizadeh is one of our most serious, respected, and careful posters. If he calls Tarek Fatah less-than-the-most-qualified to critique Islam, I would pay attention.
He is Muslim, not a Catholic. Could be catholic-schooled, but would you flesh out your objections to his work and morals, Cue? Based on your reading of his work, of course. Nothing second hand, as it were.
Tarek has been a lot of things. Flavour of the month. Cashing in on being a Muslim dissident is his latest trick.
He spells out his latest trick in several hundred pages of very lucid argument and history based on what looks to me like fact.
Could you give me in return just a few for a clue, Cue?
He is Muslim, not a Catholic. Could be catholic-schooled, but would you flesh out your objections to his work and morals, Cue? Based on your reading of his work, of course. Nothing second hand, as it were.
George, Fatah is not some "scholar" or academic whose "work" one must "read". He's a politician, in public view. First he was a noisy propagandist for the Muslim Canadian Congress (whose public statements were way too close to Islamophobic and pro-imperialist for my personal taste). He was also an NDP militant. He publicly quit both at different times, and joined the Liberals (if memory serves). You don't need to read the written ravings of Stephen Harper to condemn that sordid excuse for a human being, I trust you'll agree. Likewise, whatever one thinks of Fatah, one can reach that conclusion without going to the library.
Just read him in the National Post.
Barbra Kay waxed eloquently about him today as a matter of fact.
Where would you go to evaluate what he has written, not what he has done, u?
Hell, man, I'd just like to know if his "history" is revisionist. And if he is being unfair to the folk who interpret Islam in a way that allows them to practise some rather nasty things on other folks in the name of Allah (long may he ... whatever).
Of course he's not a scholar. Scholars would never cover so much cultural ground so quickly. It's a work for popular consumption. But let's not suggest a symbolic book burning.
Do you seriously expect me to condemn everything in this book because he's a political dilettante?
George, I never suggested a book burning. I never even said a word against his book. But knowing he's no scholar, and knowing his asinine political opinions, why would I waste my time reading it when I could pick up a decent novel instead?
I'd have to read the National Post to read him, remind? Not a good sign.
But does he actually get published, there? Reviwed favourably by the Right?
If your decent novel was a historical fiction about the early days of the religiion I suppose that might make sense for someone who wants to know about the religion. And if someone scholarly condemns his work as revisionist and slanted, there too, your course of action might make sense.
But at the moment, it doesn't...not for someone who is in need to read something positive about the future of Islam and the possibilities of an end to conflict. As you have seen, the man condemns bombing. Wondeerful start.
And this posting is by a fellow who understands th destructive power of religion. Don't need a lecture there, mate.
Yes George he publishes all the time in the NP, and yes he does, just read Barbara Kay's article on his Saturday's article, today.
George, go read his book and post your opinions of it here. Just don't try to get me to say, "Why George, what a wonderful idea to go read his book because he condemns suicide bombs! What a rare and noble Muslim he must be!" And don't tell me you "don't need a lecture" about religion when I haven't given you one, have I?
Thanks.
Seems like my reading the book will give me a one-sided take on "the faith". AT least, I will move forward from near total ignorance, and will try to keep these warnings in mind. And perhaps some other poster will offer up critical articles to further my knowledge of his critics' take on faith and politics.
I sure as shucks would not expect that kind of book promotion from you, u. And of course have not invited you to do so. Have no idea what would prompt my to come to you for that kind of instruction or encouragement on that subject. Goes against your grain, so to speak. You appeared, unannounced and uninvited. Now back to that novel.
Thanks remind.
Just read Barbar Kay's article, gagging. It of course uses Fatah's Saturday piece (which I haven't read) to do a number on "liberals."
Where she quoted him was to confirm that the murder of the four women would have been done in compliance with "man-made sharia law, which has been falsely imputed divine status."
She labels him "anti-islamist" for such views, but I believe he would take exception to that. At least, from what I've seen so far. I'll have to fast-forward to his last section to see.
Thank you for suggesting Soroush, Sanizadeh. Google has directed me to look for Abdolkarim Soroush, an "Iranian religious reformer."
Not sure if the library (system) will be up to providing his work, but I'll give it a try.
And bhagat, I hope that I will be able to read works that you recommend. Like you, I was taken with Fatah's professed interest in an ecumenical understanding among the faiths. Perhaps we can find pursue that line of thinking.
I need to find out these things, and try to understand what sort of world is developing for my grandaughter.
Fatah says that the late Polish-born Muhammad Asad (birth name Leopold Weiss) "remains one of the Muslim world's most respected scholars, with works that include commentaries on the Quran and the notion of the Islamic State. When Pakistan was created in 1947, it was this grandson of a Jewish rabbi who was invited to assist in the writing of Pakistan's constitution. The fact that his efforts failed suggest that while the theories and romantic notions about the Islamic State make for interesting academic discourse, in practice they fall short."
Really like to know if this is why Asad's efforts failed, etc. etc.
We'll really have to watch the syntax, but then, interpreting the Quran (or any other work based on faith) seems to demand that. Heck, posting here demands concern for nuances of meaning, eh?
Trust me, the slaughter of Tarek Fatah should begin sooner than you expect. Rabble has many Islamists who pose as if they are left-0f-centre and will slam his book without having read it.
Smearing the community like this is completely inappropriate. Knock it off, or leave if you don't like it.
I get this clown's e-mails everyday practically. Here is his lateste headline:
Normal 0 false false false EN-GB X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4
Muslim Silence over the Ugly Face of Jihad
Unless Muslim leaders and Islamic organizations distance themselves from the doctrine of jihad as pronounced by the Muslim Brotherhood, their position that "jihad means peace" will be seen as propaganda.
Muslim Canadians must lead the attack on jihadi Islamists. They need to stop vying for a gold medal in the Olympics of victimhood. They should say clearly in their mosques that the days of jihad are over. In the world of nation states, the UN, multilateral pacts and international law, there is no room for the doctrine of armed jihad.
Otherwise, the day is not far when jihadis will strike inside Canada.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny how no other group is told to "stand up" for the ills committed by a few. Can you imagine headlines like this:
Christian Silence over Pedophile Priests, or Jews Silent over Israel's Actions.
Yeah not going tp happen. Funny how this man seems to have no problem with US Imperialism, but comdemns Mulsilms with every post. Class act that guy.
Justin Podur has a thoughtful mixed review of Fatah's book praising some elements and information-- while at the same time gobstruck by Fatah's oftimes ignorance and convenient tunnel vision.
This quote summerizes some of the sentiment on Babble:
http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/podur210608.html
At first blush, a balanced review.
I had hoped it was possible.
Thank you, contrarians. Looking forward to reading the book and the review in detail.
Does a balanced view require that one also say nice things about a person? Ok, I believe that Fatah is pretty smart, something very useful for a opportunist snake oil salesman and poseur. I suspect he also loves his children. There: Balance.
There's apparently "good" and "bad" to be found in it. Sorta human.
Another bad day for you, Cue?
I remember e-mailing him, and asking him a question regarding the treatment of Muslims since 9/11. He said "did I honestly think the US was would do this?" as if that was way out of line.
I am dead serious. Tarek is like the writers they have for the Sun - a black man against blacks, a woman writer against women...they want to have token people to play and jump at their command. Sad part is, guys like Tarek do.
There's apparently "good" and "bad" to be found in it. Sorta human.
Another bad day for you, Cue?
How do you determine an opinion is balanced? What makes it so. Hey, I used to like Tarek. He was a good aquaintance of mine. Everything I say is based on personal experience. He is a grandstanding media hound, who will say whatever is needed to get him published. He loves being the native informant, denouncing everything from within. He says he is on the "left" and denounces leftist routinely, he says he is a Muslim, and does nothing but denounce Islam.
His entire history is of one of personal and political betrayal. I know this. I have seen it in action. He used to work with the NDP, and you will not find a single person who will speak well of him. Likewise, all the credible people who formed the MCC with him have little or nothing to do with him, except the hand chosen few who stuck around after the organization was gutted by Tarek outlandish antics and divisive tactics.
He resigned, saying he wanted to get out of the media spotlight because his views and activities with the MCC were progating death threats against him, and his family. A lie. Obviously because the next thing he did was quit the NDP and dramatically joined Bob Rae's Liberal leadership drive and even founded yet another "progresive" Muslim lobby group, writing profusely for various Canadian rags, and otherwise drawing attention to himself.
Odd behaviour for one who is heading in the Rushdiesque seculsion for his personal safety? What is the real story. The real story was that Tarek knew that he had nothing to fear from rampaging "Islamists" and was really just using the death threat story to get anothe by line in the Toronto Star, and enhance is reputation as a Muslim "dissident".
He is full of shit.
I get this clown's e-mails everyday practically. Here is his lateste headline:
Normal 0 false false false EN-GB X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4
Muslim Silence over the Ugly Face of Jihad
Unless Muslim leaders and Islamic organizations distance themselves from the doctrine of jihad as pronounced by the Muslim Brotherhood, their position that "jihad means peace" will be seen as propaganda.
Muslim Canadians must lead the attack on jihadi Islamists. They need to stop vying for a gold medal in the Olympics of victimhood. They should say clearly in their mosques that the days of jihad are over. In the world of nation states, the UN, multilateral pacts and international law, there is no room for the doctrine of armed jihad.
Otherwise, the day is not far when jihadis will strike inside Canada.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny how no other group is told to "stand up" for the ills committed by a few. Can you imagine headlines like this:
Christian Silence over Pedophile Priests, or Jews Silent over Israel's Actions.
Yeah not going tp happen. Funny how this man seems to have no problem with US Imperialism, but comdemns Mulsilms with every post. Class act that guy.
Actually, I'm constantly seeing people in babble implying that Jews have some responsibility to denounce Israel at every turn. The Vatican and the Catholic heirarchy is constantly being raked over the coals for not doing enough to condemn pedophilia among priests etc...
I agree with much of what Tarek Fatah says - too bad that the guys is such a complete lunatic on a personal level - it detracts from his valid points.
Thanks for expanding on your standard epithet of "bullshit", Cue. Your critique is now understandable. His is not a "balanced" position.
I did wonder at the catalogue of Canadian "progressives" that he listed as inspiring in the preface. I don't doubt he is capable of some gratuitous excesses beyond that. But I knew non of this because my newspapers, the Globe and the Record, are not given to printing his stuff.
My chief concern at this point is to discover whether the development of extremist positions within the Muslim religion in any way depends on the ideological figures that he presents to us - as well, of course, as the assault, physical and cultural, on the attempts by middle eastern Arab progressives to construct the societies that could grow the responsible, democratic structures that have been systematically destroyed since Mohammad Mossadegh's time (when the opening strokes of the Cold War set back all...) The two go hand in hand, the destruction of nascent democratic forces leaving a people open to believe any spiritual offering.
If Fatah lopsidedly ignores the impact of our own oil-driven (SUV-lovin') obsession with "the good life" and our impact on some of the most vulnerable people one can imagine, that wiill be noted. As long as my fellow babblers are willing to allow one to come to an understanding through the rational process of comparing views - I am not in danger of being taken in by propaganda from any quarter (Mossadegh's destruction was roundly condemned at my family's dinner table discussions more than a half century back I can recall it) - all should be well in this temple of learning.
Matter of fact, I am going to look for ANY reference to the CIA-driven plot against Mossadegh to see if there is ANY recognition of that historical event, which has always been, for me, the reference point for my understanding the monster that we, as a greedy, materialist culture, have managed to create. This will not be the position of some, whose ideas of "Imperialism" are all about a topdown rule by the forces of capitalism and militarism (my take on our failure is a bottom-up process from ignorance of the - wait for it - Great Unread). But I hope this explanation of my abiding political interest is at least reassuring to some, hereabouts.
Stock:
I agree with much of what Tarek Fatah says - too bad that the guys is such a complete lunatic on a personal level - it detracts from his valid points.
He could be a nasty piece of work doing a necessary thing, Stock. But obviously, there is going to have to be a little more mia culpa everywhere in trying to get this right.
George,
I suggest you jump to the chapter on Iran and it will show you that the attacks on fatah are totally unwarranted and come from people who have a personal beef with him because he spares nothing to expose the Islamist agenda in Canada. He even defines the difference between "Islamism" and "Islam" as well as the difference between "Muslim" and "Islamist."
Justin Podur's review is just one and he too reveals that it was Fatah who asked him to critique his work. From the Daily Times in Pakistan to the Huffington Post and Ha'aretz, the book was won rave reviews.
The fact that some rightwing nuts have found his opposition to Iran and Saudi Arabia worthy of praise, but that should not be held against Fatah. After all, is it not odd that Hugo Chavez finds himself in the same league as Ayatullah Khamenie?
The difference is that the term "Islamist" is a term used almost exclusively by non-Muslims to identify any faithful Muslim who also has a political agenda, Islam is a term universally used to idenify a religion. The mirage that Tarek is chasing is the idea that their is an ideology called "Islamism".
It is a term originally invented by a small group of extremely anti-Muslim western scholars, whose primary thesis was the there was something essentially and definitevly different about Islam that made it more violent and repressive in comparison to the other religions in Judeao-Christian tradition, which were "compatible" with secular humanist tollerance, while Islam was not.
Do you have a better term to use when we want to talk about "faithful Muslims who also have a political agenda" - particularly when that includes opposition to any separation between church and state and wanting to establish theocratic states where everyone has to live according to Sharia law etc...? If we aren't allowed to call such people "Islamists" then what would be a more "politically correct" term to use?
Zionists.
I guess no one wants to answer my question.
Looks that way.
Or maybe they think your question is loaded.
What if we needed a term for Jews who think Jews should not only have their own state, but should allow only Jews to immigrate and become instant citizens?
What if some non-Jewish scholars decided to call these people "Jewists"?
That would be really cool, no?
Do you have a better term to use when we want to talk about "faithful Muslims who also have a political agenda" - particularly when that includes opposition to any separation between church and state and wanting to establish theocratic states where everyone has to live according to Sharia law etc...? If we aren't allowed to call such people "Islamists" then what would be a more "politically correct" term to use?
There is nothing "particullarly" about it. It is a sweeping non-indiginous identification that includes any and all militant Muslim people, reagrdless if they believe in instituting Sharia law, or not, or what brand of Sharia they advocate. There is pratically no continuity between the political views of revolutionary Muslim groups, Hamas is not the Taliban, Hexboallah is not Hamas. For example Hamas ran a female candidates who opposed enforcement of Hijab laws, when another said something which might be construed as advocating for the enforcement of Hijab laws, she quickly backtracked and clarified that such should be strictly voluntary. That doesn't sound like Sharia as proposed by the Iranian state. Yet, westerners love to lump in Sunni-salafists who practice Pasthtun-Wali, such as the Taliban, with Shia theorcracy in Iran, and Hamas, even though there are obvious distinctions to be made between them, just as there are obvious distinctions to be made between the state of Egypt, which proclaims that its laws are based in Sharia, as does the state of Iran.
Hosni Mubarak is an "Islamist" because he is the president of a state where all laws must conform to Sunni Sharia laws?
It's doubtful that the Taliban are universally ideologically embedded in Pashtunwali. Yet, western propagandists love the term, because it can be used to make a blanket condemnation of any and all of its opponents among Muslim people by aligning them all with the most obnoxious and backward elements in Muslim societies.
Where are the Islamist parties then? Why is Hamas called Hamas, and not the Islamist Liberation Front of Palestine. Why? Because it has no meaning outside of the context of western orientalist propaganda.
One merely has to go look at the writings of the people who invented the term to understand how it is embedded in explicitly bigotted tropes about Islam, asserting that Islam is fundamentally antithetical to democracy and tollerance, in a way that the Judeao-Christian cultural nexus is not, as is done repeatedly. The "Islamism" accusation is not just made against Islamic militants, but intrinsically impugns every single Muslim person, regardless, if they are militants or not, because according to those who coined the term, being of the Isalmic faith makes one intollerant and anti-democratic.
Sure, if you want to align with the Right wing Christian Babtist nut cases, who believe Christianity is fundamentally superior to Islam, be my guest.
The word "Islamism" is not an invention of some western anti-Islamic scholars. The term is the official ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood who use the phrase "al-Islamiyyah" quite frequently and without hesitation.
The Indian philosopher-poet Muhammad Iqbal also used the term "Islamism" in the 1930s and the ideology was trashed by both Indian and Egyptian reformists in the pre-war years.
And for those who feel "Islamism" is a term foreign to the Islamic world, here is a book by a noted Muslim scholar on the opposite side of Fatah. The title says it all: "Arabism, Islamism and the Palestine Question (1908-1941)" by Basheer M. Nafi.
http://books.google.com/books?id=WhCjkcZZK1AC&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq#v=on...
The title does not say it all. The term first appears in France and appears in the OED as early as 1747.
Arguing for the rational nature of Islam was a common strategy among Muslim reformers, who wanted to facilitate change while maintaining cultural identity. It was a strategy that recognized the Western orientation of modern development and the threat this orientation posed to cultural authenticity in the Muslim world. Indeed al-Afghani believed that social and political change could only be brought about if Muslims had a firm sense of the civilization to which Islam had given birth.
Al-Afghani, and Pan-Islamism
In other words, the term "Islamism" was the taken up in the late Ottoman by Muslims scholars to identify a movement that wanted to make Islam conform to the norms of secular nations states, not to bring about the retrenchment of Sharia. The themes of this reform were modernization and secularization, and even the creation of an Ottoman constitutional monarchy, based in rationalism. Quite the opposite of the term as it has reemerged in the west in the 1980's, as defined by western scholars.
Coming to terms: Fundamentalist or Islamist
"Islamism Is Fascism"—thus ran the headline of an interview with analyst Daniel Pipes. "Islamism Is the New Bolshevism"—thus went the headline of an op-ed column by former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher. The entry of Islamism into common English usage had not improved the image of these movements and paradoxically made it easier to categorize them as threats of the first order. As fundamentalists, these Muslims might have claimed some affinity to Christian and Jewish fundamentalists, who were generally tolerated. As the Muslim equivalent of fascists or bolshevists, they were clearly marked as the enemies of democracy and freedom.
Fatah says that the Islamists who "follow the doctrine of Wahhabism (from the 18th-century Islamic fanatic Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab) or Salafi Islam (Salafism...is a generic term for Sunni Muslims who view the lives of the first three generations ofMuhammad's companiions from the 7th and 8th centuries as examples of how Islam should be practiced in the 21st)_. or even the ruling ayatollahs of Iran, a country can be labelled an Islamic State only if it is governed by the laws of sharia.
"Thus, neither Turkey or Indonesia is an Islamic State in the eyes of the Islamists."
Fatah argues that those in this century who interpret the Quran as supportive of an "Islamic State", a goal central to the Muslim world since the time of the first Caliphate in the 7th century, are wrong. Nowhere iin the Quran, says Fatah, does God "ask or authorize the creation of an Islamic State."
The "abolition of the caliphate system (1925) by Turkey's founding president, secular modernist Mustafa Kemal Ataturk", meant that for the first time since 632 CE, the Muslim world had no central political authority." And the Muslim world by that time "was largely living under French, British and Dutch occupation."
He quotes Ataturk as saying "Our prophet has instructed his disciples to convert the nations of the world to Islam, he has not ordered for them to provide for the government of these nations. Never did such an idea pass through his mind. Caliphate means government and administration...The notiion of a single Caliph exercising suprreme religious authority over all the Muslim people is one which has come out of the books, not reality."
"The movement to restore the Ottoman caliphate was strong in India" in Mahatma Gandhi's time, even though some pointed out that the caliphate "had long become a symbol of Muslim statehood in name only, as not even the next-door Iranians accepted the sovereignty of the Ottomans."
(I can't find any fundamental fault with Fatah's basic explanation of Muslim history from the creation of that vacuum of belief on the collapse of the caliphate and the dominance of European Imperialism over governments. The pursuit of a Muslim "state" was deemed necessary by some in opposition to Western cultural and political domination, and it gave rise to the the "politics and theology of Islamic States," the title he gives to Chapter 1.)
Fatah goes into detailed explanation of the rise of various religious inerpretations of authority across the Arab states, but says the "extreme case of domination of religious principles is found in the Iranian Constitution.
"The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief(s)" and Fatah quotes the Consitituion in detail, showing, finally, the "leadership of the holy persons, posessing necessary qualifications, exercised on the basis of the Quran and the Sunna, upon all of whom be peace."
And "in the same spirit," says Fatah, "the majority of the Arab constitutions declare the sharia as the basis of legislation, ar at least consider it as a main source of legislation."
He goes on to say that it is that position which "prevents most the the countries that pretend to be Islamic States from living up to the standards set by the 1948 United Nations Declaration of Universal Human Rights."
(Fatah's central critique of human rights failure follows from this, and will be entered here, the spirit willing, on Aug. 1st.) :-)
I think we have more than enough evidence that Fatah really has no tenable claim to scholastic credentials either historical, political or theological. As we have determined, Fatah is a Pakistani man brought up in the Catholic schools system, and a former Marxist of some kind or another. His specialization in university was not history, nor Islam or political science, but was indeed biochemistry. Plain falacies and contradictions arise in due course as he wantonly thows around facts to fit his case. For example, the idea that the assent of Attatukism in Turkey is the first time "since 632 CE, the Muslim world had no central political authority" is laughable in the extreme.
The cracks in homogenity of Islamic political authority begin almost immediatly upon the death of Mohammed with the Shia/Sunni split, and even within the Sunni branch there is ongoing competition between competing dynastes, most notably the Ummayad/Abasid split, and the assention of Caliphate of Cordoba in the 10th Century. Furthermore the Abasid Caliphate was challenged by yet another competing authority in the form of the Fatimid Caliphate.
In other words, the idea that there was "a central political authority" in the Muslim world, is simply baseless.
Knowing Tarek, I would say he is playing fast and loose with the facts out of plain ignorance, while relying on the ignorance of his western audience to cover for him while sounds off with grand sounding rhetoric, tuned to appeal to rank prejudice, bolstered by his claim to speak from authority as a Muslim.
Read him Cue. Don't be silly, of course he does not leave out the original Schism in the faith. It is the appearance and rise of the particularly bloody-minded that he is trying to explain.
Unfortunately, I cannot quote the book in its entirety, so you'll have lots of opportunity to add scholarly one-liners in the days ahead...Allah willing or unwilling.
We already have a thread on this book.
Tarek Fatah thinks Jason Kenney is a great immigration minister:
"What is different with him is, with previous [Conservative] immigration ministers, both have been pussycats; this guy is a tiger," says Tarek Fatah, an author, prominent Liberal supporter and founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress. "He's standing up for Canadian values. I would like every politician to stand up for this country the way Jason Kenney has."
Tarek Fatah's MCC blamed Hamas for "provoking" the genocidal Israeli assault on Gaza
Fatah's tendency to be a bit of an intellectual and political dilettante has been duly noted. But is he still a "prominent Liberal supporter" while also one who would "like every politician to stand up for this country" in the fashion of Kenney?
The rock-solid and timeless opposition to any discussion of the fellow's position is also noted - thanks for the May 2008 thread, MS. I'll plow on in the spirit of "know your enemy", at least, if that's all right with the more inquisitive hereabouts.
Read him Cue. Don't be silly, of course he does not leave out the original Schism in the faith. It is the appearance and rise of the particularly bloody-minded that he is trying to explain.
How could he claim then that Islam had a central political authority that was done away with by Kemal Ataturk, since there was no central political authority, when we actually know there were several caliphates, even in Sunni Islam, competing with each other after 632 CE. His statement is simply wrong. Even the Ottomans failed to extend the authority of their empire beyond the borders of Iran.
Its just a stupid grand-eloquent statement.
Let's at least get these facts straight. The Caliph is a title bestowed upon a secular leader. He is not a religious leader. There was not a central political authority among Muslims at all after the death of Mohammed.
Okay, if you say so. I'll believe you where thousands wouldn't.
Thousands, like Tarek Fatah were brought up with a Catholic de-education. There is no explicit hierarchy among the Imams of the Sunni schools, for him to lead. Becoming the Caliph does not make one "the Pope".
But the Caliph probably had more authority over the morals of the would-be Berlusconis of his day.
In the Ottoman period the Caliph and the Sultan would be one in the same person. Claiming the Caliphacy was a way of asserting the right of conquest over Muslim lands not yet aquired. For example, after the Ottomans conquered Mamluks, they demanded that the Mamluk Sultan surrender the title of Caliph to the Ottoman Sultan, who thereby reinforced his claim to Egypt, the Levant and most of the Berber territories in North Africa, by being Sultan and Caliph.
The Caliph was advised by the Imams, on wether or not his dictates and laws complied with Islam. It is a title more in keeping with Emperor than Pope, as in the HRE where a secular king would be Emperor, and ruler over the Catholics, while the Pope was the final religious authority over the Catholics, except that the Sunni schools were more amorphous in their structure, and did not have totalized leader.
These guys collected titles like trading cards. The Ottoman Sultans, were also known as the Khan of Khans, and Ceasar of the Roman Empire.
Wikipedia entry for Tarek Fatah:
In a discussion hosted by the Globe and Mail in 2007, Fatah stated that "most of the Islamic radicalism that you see today stems from from the empowering of Saudi based Jihadi groups that were funded and backed by the U.S. and the CIA throughout the Afghan war against the Soviet Union."[13]
Fatah argues that "Most secular and liberal institutions were destroyed piece by piece and what we are left with is the result of huge amounts of cash and weapons in the hands of the Taliban type, or Al-Qaeda groups that get their intellectual sustenance from the political teachings of the Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan Al-Banna and the leader of the Jamaat-e-Islami, Abul ala Maudoodi, both of who preached Jehad as an obligation for all Muslims if they saw another Muslim under attack."[13]
He has stated that converts adopting the niqab face covering is indicative of joining "a cult", and offensive to Islam
If Fatah is a Liberal, I've never heard very many Canadians of that political stripe explain recent history of Central Asia in quite that way. They'll kick him back down the Liberal Party ladder if he carries on like this.
That is an interesting link to the Wik, Fidel, and gives me confidence to proceed (as promised/threatened) with Fatah's explanation of the modern face of Muslim extremism - braving the Wrath of Cue.
From the attempt by some, in May, 2008, to discuss Fatah's book when it came on the scene, newly reviewed in the Star, I took the May 9 posting by sanizadeh as a fundamental reason for continuing the discussion...that the current understanding of Islam is, contrary to Fatah's position, "not just the 'perversion of principles' ".
Cue's understanding of history is that the Caliphates were a far more secularized government than Fatah suggests. Like to hear more of his take on Wahabism (or, where the "perversion"/radicalism began). And it will be interesting to see his take on the Wiki bit about Hassan Al-Banna and Abdul ala Maudoodi. Fatah certainly see them central to a "perversion" and radicalization.
Anyway, somewhere in history, the Quran came to be interpreted in different ways.
And here is Fatah's account of what occurred at the end of the Second World War (still from Chapter 1, Politics and Theology of Islamic States, where he said (above) that in the same spirit as the Iranian Constitution, "the majority of the Arab constitutions declare the sharia as the basis of legislation, or at least consider it as a main source of legislation.
"This prevents most of the countries that pretend to be Islamic States from living up to the standards set by the 1948 United Nations Declaration of Universal Human Rights. It also legitimizes the notion of facial and religious superiority, and allows for mltiple levels of citizenship and widespread and systemic discrimination against racial and religious minorities living withing a state's borders. Invariably, the human rights of the weak and dispossessed, the minorities and women, the diabled and the heretics, are trampled upon without the slightest sense of guilt or wrongdoing.
"Men and women are imprisoned, routinely tortured and often killed, while numbed citizens, fearful of offending Islam, unsure about their own rights, insecure about their own identities, allow these violations to continue. By looking the other way, the intelligentsia and middle classes have become complicit in these crimes. They justifytheir inaction as patriotism, where they stand in solidarity with the Islamic State, with the misguided idea that those who fight for universal human rights are somehow working for Westerm imperialism or represent the interests of Judeoo-Christian civilization.
"This rejection of the universality of human rights is not limited to the elites of the world's fifty-six Islamic countries, but is also widespread among the leaders of traditional Muslim organizations."
His case in point: "In December 2006, a Toronto-born Muslim lawyer, who had supported the introduction of sharia law in Ontario's Family Courts, critiqued the UN declaration in Counterpunch magazine suggesting the UN Declaration of Human Rights was a 'western construct,' not truly fit for the Islamic world."
(That should inspire more bellicose entries. And I'm now going to borrow the borrowed book back from a friend and read that chapter on Iran, suggested by bhagat. Rather topical.)
My understanding is that the CIA, Saudi princes, and US-backed military dictatorship in Pakistan chose to bypass religious moderates in support of the most radical and most ruthless religious clerics and warlords in 1980s Afghanistan. Pakistani news journalist Khaled Ahmed commented in 2001 that the people who received aid money and military and moral support from the west then were of questionable character and no friends of the Afghan or Pakistani people. Religious moderates, he said, would have been more valuable in opposing Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, or iow's, that period after which Zbigniew Brzezinski and ideologues began meddling in Afghanistan.
Talibanization of Afghanistan was viewed by Zia and Pakistan's army intelligence as a way of providing "strategic depth" in Afghanistan, a geostrategic advantage for Pakistan in border conflicts with India over Kashmir and so on. The strategic depth strategy makes little sense for them now since Pakistan obtained nuclear weapons technology in the late 1990s with help from the US and nuclear gangsters. Khaled Ahmed says what resulted is that Pakistan has, instead, become strategic depth to Taliban ideology.
Fidel,
Brilliant analysis. Thanks for sharing this. Tarek Fatah has made a very similar analysis in his chapter on Pakistan.
BTW, who is Khaled Ahmed? Any URL?
I have not read the book, but I am not sure if Tarek has the necessary qualification and knowledge to discuss a complex issue such as contemporary Islam. His knowledge of Islamic faith is at best very shallow. I lost all respect for him when he blamed the victim in the case of Muslim woman in Germany who was murdered for her Hijab. Fatah effectively said: don't wear the Hijab so that they don't kill you!!
Unfortunately the muslim leaders in the west are mostly divided in two groups: One group defends almost everything muslims would do and protests anything a westerner would do, and the other group justifies eveything a westerner do and criticizes everything that a muslim does. Elmasri and fatah seem to be the two extreme ends in this example.
Fatah's "blaming the victim" can be generialized as a main criticism of Fatah witnessed by his wholehearted embrace by the imperial sycophants of the mainstream press who seek a simplistic excuse for imperialism, that is, by giving it another name (ie. war on an alien, irrational terrorism).
Podur's review of Fatah put it this way:
http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/podur210608.html
On a related issue in this thread, the question of the meaning of radical "Islamism": how alien is it really to Western enlightenment idealism?
John Gray among others have argued that the philosophical underpinnings of radical Islamism owes more to Western enlightenment Utopian radicalism than anything in historical Islam.
The Pathology of Faith
The Islamist: Why I Joined Radical Islam in Britain, What I Saw Inside, and Why I Left
By Ed Hussain (Allan Lane / The Penguin Press 288pp £8.99)
Ed Husain begins one of the chapters of The Islamist with a quotation from Syed Qutb, the chief intellectual founder of Islamism, outlining the purpose of Qutb's most influential book: 'I have written Milestones for this vanguard of Islamists which I consider to be a waiting reality about to be realised.' Qutb's use of the concept of the vanguard reveals one of the paradoxes of political Islam: a movement that is avowedly anti-secular, anti-modern and anti-Western, it has been profoundly shaped by modern Western secular ideologies. The idea of a revolutionary elite dedicated to leading the deluded masses to a perfect society is a borrowing from Lenin and the Jacobins rather than anything derived from Islamic theology....
Nearly all media commentary accepts Islamism at face value and endorses its self-image as the mortal enemy of the modern West. In contrast, Ed Husain, who has the penetrating insight of a former insider, is clear that this is the opposite of the truth. The idea of a pure Islamic state, he writes, is 'not the continuation of a political entity set up by the Prophet, maintained by the caliphs down the ages (however debatable)'. Rather, it is a response to secular modernity. It is striking how much Islamists have taken from Western thinkers who rejected traditional religions in order to promote surrogate political faiths. Husain shows how Taqi Nabhani, a member of the Muslim Brotherhood who left to found the more radical Islamist organisation Hizb-ut Tahrir that Husain joined in his late teens, was much influenced by Hegel and Marx, while Nabhani's contempt for liberal democracy echoed that of Rousseau. 'Nabhani's ideas', Husain concludes, 'were not innovatory Muslim thinking but wholly derived from European political thought.' He might have examined other, more contemporary examples: for example, Ali Sharati, the predecessor of Ayatollah Khomeini as leader of Iranian Islamists in exile during the reign of the Shah, took his conception of martyrdom as a type of chosen death from Martin Heidegger, who for a time saw himself as the philosopher of the Third Reich. Rather than recovering Islamic tradition Islamist thinking has been shaped by the Western ideologues who - whether they realised it or not - supplied the intellectual armoury of twentieth-century totalitarianism.
http://www.literaryreview.co.uk/gray_06_07.html
BTW, who is Khaled Ahmed? Any URL?
Khaled Ahmed is a consulting news editor of the Friday Times in Lahore, Pakistan and based in London.
Conversations with History: Institute of International Studies, UC Berkeley
I have not read the book, but I am not sure if Tarek has the necessary qualification and knowledge to discuss a complex issue such as contemporary Islam. His knowledge of Islamic faith is at best very shallow. I lost all respect for him when he blamed the victim in the case of Muslim woman in Germany who was murdered for her Hijab. Fatah effectively said: don't wear the Hijab so that they don't kill you!!
Unfortunately the muslim leaders in the west are mostly divided in two groups: One group defends almost everything muslims would do and protests anything a westerner would do, and the other group justifies eveything a westerner do and criticizes everything that a muslim does. Elmasri and fatah seem to be the two extreme ends in this example.
Fatah's "blaming the victim" can be generialized as a main criticism of Fatah witnessed by his wholehearted embrace by the imperial sycophants of the mainstream press who seek a simplistic excuse for imperialism, that is, by giving it another name (ie. war on an alien, irrational terrorism).
Podur's review of Fatah put it this way:
Within these statements lies the crux of the question for me : how to explain, in terms understandable to the person on the street, how we wound up UNABLE to explain what is taking place - without reaching for ever greater abstractions, or falling back on political "lines".
If Fatah is rejected as a dilettante, what is Elmasri? He has certainly come under fire from fellow academics here at the University of Waterloo over the past several years. Particulaly from a local Conservative figure. Does anyone have a reading on him? And notice both he and Fatah stepped forward to take political positions, exhorting others of their faith while trying to explain it to the "western" society of their choice.
Tarek Fatah's MCC blamed Hamas for "provoking" the genocidal Israeli assault on Gaza
That's totally self-evident. Of course they launched rockets in the hopes of provoking an Israeli response. There is no other reason why they would have done it.
It is also possible to imagine that some members of the Muslim Congress of Canada have (had) relatives in Gaza. And even if not, those who spoke out must have wondered at the ease with which Hamas stood read to sacrifice the general populace, in this "self-evident" act. I wonder which social/demographic community in Canada is most represented by the MCC? It is clearly another way in which "believers" divide in their interpretation of the Quran, or have it interpreted for them. The website you posted, MS, gave me this:The Muslim Canadian Congress is a grassroots organization that provides a voice to Muslims who are not represented by existing organizations; organizations that are either sectarian or ethnocentric, largely authoritarian, and influenced by a fear of modernity and an aversion to joy.
President:Sohail RazaVice PresidentAnwer OmarSecretary General:Anar PatelTreasurerAmna BakhtiarCommunications DirectorFarzana HassanMembers of the Board Hassan Mahmud Yasmeen Loubani Aysel Ozkan Anwar Ahmed Kaan Oran Intizar Zaidi Ali Abbas Inayatullah Moony Khan Akbar Hussain Tahir Aslam Gora Mahfooz Kanwar Zeynep Baysal
Regional representatives:BC:Jane KhanQuebec:Intizar ZaidiOttawa:Anwer OmariCalgary:Kanwar MahfoozSaskatoon:Farkhanda WakilNiagara Falls:Nimet KarachiWinnipeg:Margaret Ahsan Founder:Tarek Fatah Canada's Fallen
Soldiers
MCC grieves the loss of our sons and daughters in Afghanistan, who died serving Canada in the line of duty. We offer our condolences to the families of the dead soldiers and hope to see all our troops back home safely.
Who speaksViews and opinions on who, if anyone, is the real voice for Canada's Muslims
Sharia courtsThe MCC campaign against religious tribunals for family law
Equal MarriagesThe MCC takes a stand for justice, equality and human rights
War on TerrorThe MCC condemns both terrorism and the "war on terror"
PalestineThe MCC does more than just talk the talk. Read about walking the walk in Hebron
IslamSpeaking for Muslims: A new group stirs the pot with its progressive ideas
You will notice in the little blurb towards the bottom, that the MCC "condemns both terrorism and the 'war on terror'." That is probably not nuanced enough for anyone who sees this as just a propaganda posting, but heck, I'll bet SOME aren't being cynical.That was a veritable goldmine of information you offered there,MS.
Didn't know this about the MCC at election time, 1966:
MCC urges community to vote for the NDP on Monday
Muslim Canadian Congress urges
community to vote for the NDP on Monday
Only Jack Layton has shown that he can blunt the right-wing agenda of the Conservatives
TORONTO - As Canadians prepare to vote for a new government on Monday, January 23, the Muslim Canadian Congress has endorsed the New Democratic Party and is appealing to Muslim Canadians to vote for the NDP candidate in ridings across the country.
With the threat of a possible Conservative victory on Monday, the MCC is urging the community to send as many New Democrats to the House of Commons so they can confront the right-wing agenda of Stephen Harper.
"We must do everything possible to restrict the Conservatives to a minority government in Ottawa so that Canada is not dragged into joining Bush-Blair tag team", said Niaz Salimi, President of the MCC.
"As far as the the Liberal Party is concerned, for too long it has taken our communities for granted; it is time for the traditional leadership of Canada's Muslim communities to cut their ties with the tainted record of the Federal Liberal Party and demonstrate solidarity with Jack Layton and his New Democrats", added Ms. Salimi.
The blurb goes on in some detail.
Wonder where they are at now, politically?
In the spirit of fairness, should someone apologize to bhagat for slandering him? From what I can see here, there is a bunch of ad hominem attacks on Fatah from people who haven't read his book, just as bhagat predicted.
If I say George W. Bush is a criminal imperialist aggressor, is that called an "ad hominem" attack?
If I say that about George W. Bush before reading his upcoming memoirs, should I apologize to someone for being "unfair"?
Everyone here who spoke about Tarek Fatah did so from experience. Now, if it turns out that Fatah's book says, "Sorry, I was an asshole, I recant all my pandering to imperialism and Islamophobia" - I will be the first in line to apologize humbly!!! That's a promise.
Meanwhile, I will not be reading his book any time soon, so you'll have to tell me if he recants.
And that, I'm afraid babel, is about how it goes in this subject area, hereabouts. "Conventional wisdom" in Galbraith's famous formulation.
It really should not be an area in which one can shun books while making ringing statements about imperialism. And, of course, George Bush will be used as a template for evil about everything to do with the middle east , probably until the middle of this century, often as obfuscation of the point under discussion.
I had no idea I was inviting lectures on political correctness by advancing the book and author - but, then, I tend not to fall into line when political lines are defended or advanced. A thick skin suffices, if the unread are only lecturing from a generalized position, encompasing the whole of the Muslim world, in this instance.
I don't intend to present anything else from Chasing a Mirage, since in an anti-intellectual environment, that would only invite more animosity and plain old puffery. Some are easily cowed by bombast.
Tarek Fatah's MCC blamed Hamas for "provoking" the genocidal Israeli assault on Gaza
That's totally self-evident. Of course they launched rockets in the hopes of provoking an Israeli response. There is no other reason why they would have done it.
Yeah. I know the devil made me do it. I beat her up because she slapped me, Yadda yadda.
And Hamas had weighed the possible outcomes of response, down to the last child. They must really frighten the hell out of a lot of mothers and fathers within their bailiwiick who are not quite ready to offer up their kids to the cause. Such absence of concern not only frightens me, but makes me wonder at their sanity in thinking that that will win friends and influence people - except among a similarly deluded audience.
"This book was written by the Jews for the Jews!"
"Finally, Mr. Fatah opines that The Trouble with Islam "is not addressed to Muslims; it is aimed at making Muslim-haters feel secure in their thinking."
Who precisely does he mean by "Muslim-haters"? Mr. Fatah recently came clean to me in a TV studio. After the cameras stopped rolling, but in front of the host and crew, he bellowed, "This book was written by the Jews for the Jews!" It's painful to hear such words fly from the mouth of a self-declared Muslim reformer -- an individual who has said that too many Muslims wallow in conspiracy theories.
Indeed, it's because of such honest comments that I included him and his wife in my acknowledgments." -Irshad Manji In
http://muslim-refusenik.com/news/globe-dec2-03.html
Now, wait a minute! I guess I have some loose ends to tie up: An apology to Irshad Manji might help to do right that:
"'I was unfair to her': former critic Tarek Fatah apologizes to Irshad".
(In) http://www.irshadmanji.com/im-category/media-coverage/page/7
I really wish, Mahmud, that you would - right up front - say where YOU are at in all of this back and forth. I had understood that Irshad Manji and Fatah had fallen out.
The Hamilton Spec piece from June 26/08 is an excellent account of what happened, and supplies some interesting history from the 9th and 10th centuries. Marvelous.
Do you think that Manji and Fatah can now speak as one? I don't have the depth of understanding or knowledge of current developments to be able to know or even guess at that? But, I will say, sort of having Manji onside, as it were, would make me feel more comfortable hereabouts.
Well, George, What I know is that in her lettter in the Globe and Mail of December 2nd, 2003
Irshad Manji reported that Tarek Fatah said about her book: "This book was written by the Jews
for the Jews" and she added that there were witnesses.
Tarek Fatah and Irshad Manji are, in my view, just competitors in a very lucrative post 2001
business to which some Western Muslims succumbed.
Tarek Fatah is a hero amoung true secular muslims.
those willing to bend over backwards to appease Islamic trolls in the Islamic Canadian Congress, and join the Hate Israel bridage because it's "oh so fashionable" while the media censors itself to create a false social harmony will eventually pay the price.
their liberal rights of political expression, like we have in Israel, where we can curse our government curse our military, curse muslims, zionism, everything, will not be provided in an islamic-dominated society.
Truly IRONIC to see alleged-liberals, supporters of women's rights, sexual minorities, etc...as I am, march side-by-side with Muslim trolls. Desparately defending them against those evil Zionist Nazis, why?
More women and children have been killed in muslim honor killings all across Islamic world than the entire Arab-Israel conflict. Women and gays are brutalized, often treated as collaborators to the Israeli government or Zionist spies. Why? Because Palestinian women tend to be the best spies because they r treated like garbage. Trust me, I've met dozens. Even after the Gaza conflict Fatah lined up 27 Palestinian women against a wall and shot them in the back up the head, accusing them of "collaborating with the Zionists."
Such a lack of humanity in this part of the world, and its good to see true Muslims STATE THE OBVIOUS.
He ranks well with Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie.
I haven't read the book, but this, "he "hope(s) that, after reading this book, the conservative Republicans in the United States and their neo-conservative allies in the West will realize that in the battle of ideas, dropping bombs helps the foe, not the friend," suggests he knows nothing about imperialsists. The Americans and British did not starve, genetically poison, and murder more than a million from a secular, modern, Arab state because they hoped to make friends, they did it for oil. Further, he doesn't know history. The backward regimes that dominate Islamic nations from the mid-east to south Asia are protected puppets of the imperialist regimes.
Fatah, like me and all of us here, has the luxury of living from within the gates of the empire, protected from the realities of the world, and comfortable in condemning a large and diverse population (when did Islam become homogenous?) from behind the bullet proof, plexiglass windows of the expanded, imperial Homeland.
I would bet, his readership is almost all white and few are muslims as his role is to promote and perpetuate the myth of the white man's burden. Islam must be saved from Islam, and it is up to us to do it. The cost, of course, is the resources under their feet.
I haven't read the book, but this, "he "hope(s) that, after reading this book, the conservative Republicans in the United States and their neo-conservative allies in the West will realize that in the battle of ideas, dropping bombs helps the foe, not the friend," suggests he knows nothing about imperialsists. The Americans and British did not starve, genetically poison, and murder more than a million from a secular, modern, Arab state because they hoped to make friends, they did it for oil. Further, he doesn't know history. The backward regimes that dominate Islamic nations from the mid-east to south Asia are protected puppets of the imperialist regimes.
Fatah, like me and all of us here, has the luxury of living from within the gates of the empire, protected from the realities of the world, and comfortable in condemning a large and diverse population (when did Islam become homogenous?) from behind the bullet proof, plexiglass windows of the expanded, imperial Homeland.
I would bet, his readership is almost all white and few are muslims as his role is to promote and perpetuate the myth of the white man's burden. Islam must be saved from Islam, and it is up to us to do it. The cost, of course, is the resources under their feet.
Ignorant. The islamic nations have an addiction to war. They are inheriently bigoted, and an ounce of freedom is too much as it threatened the very sensitivity that is Islamic lifestyle. You cannot criticize it, question it, argue with it. Every country, from Egypt, to Turkey, to Pakistan, to the Palestinian territories, have received immense freedom from criticism or recongition of their crimes. Not simply against the West, but against themselves. It is true, the West is more tolerant of Muslims than Muslims are tolerant of muslims.
When they arent killing Jews, they are killing themselves - and they have the DEATH TOLL to prove it. This apologism, this obsession with tolerance, while actively condemning people who recognize the arab bigotry, the group-thinking, and the utter stupidity, can only be sourced from true intellectuals. It was the intellectuals who brought hitler to power. it was the intellectuals who empathized with stalin. it was the intellectuals who think you can "change" the islamic world by accomodating their bigotry.
NO. Until they decide collectively that honor killings, squashing free speech, political expression, and freedom of religion, not to mention sexual rights that are denied wholesale in the ENTIRE muslim world, the Western world should show NO respect.
Yet we do. We bankroll Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, hundreds of billions of dollars in oil - use to promote terrorism all across the world. Islamic insurgency in Philipines -150k people killed. Islamic wars in Pakistan/india - 3.5 million people killed, the wahhabist massacres in the 19th century, and the victimization of muslims and obsession with jews is all paid for by the West.
So this isn't simply an Islamic-issue, but this was going on well before the West was even in the ME. Well before the West was the West. The islamic empires have never changed, and have never gone away - and a small majority of muslims all across the world still vy to recapture Spain, Europe, and take back what was once theirs.
It's a revenge-based society, a society without morality or humanity. It's a society that liberals can sympathize with - because they too lack humanity.
Ignorant. The islamic nations have an addiction to war. They are inheriently bigoted, and an ounce of freedom is too much as it threatened the very sensitivity that is Islamic lifestyle. You cannot criticize it, question it, argue with it. Every country, from Egypt, to Turkey, to Pakistan, to the Palestinian territories, have received immense freedom from criticism or recongition of their crimes. Not simply against the West, but against themselves. It is true, the West is more tolerant of Muslims than Muslims are tolerant of muslims.
When they arent killing Jews, they are killing themselves - and they have the DEATH TOLL to prove it. This apologism, this obsession with tolerance, while actively condemning people who recognize the arab bigotry, the group-thinking, and the utter stupidity, can only be sourced from true intellectuals. It was the intellectuals who brought hitler to power. it was the intellectuals who empathized with stalin. it was the intellectuals who think you can "change" the islamic world by accomodating their bigotry.
I think your a racist pig and I'm not sure what you're doing here. The fact that a racist such as yourself would proclaim Fatah a hero essentially supports my contention.
Ignorant. The islamic nations have an addiction to war. They are inheriently bigoted, and an ounce of freedom is too much as it threatened the very sensitivity that is Islamic lifestyle. You cannot criticize it, question it, argue with it. Every country, from Egypt, to Turkey, to Pakistan, to the Palestinian territories, have received immense freedom from criticism or recongition of their crimes. Not simply against the West, but against themselves. It is true, the West is more tolerant of Muslims than Muslims are tolerant of muslims.
When they arent killing Jews, they are killing themselves - and they have the DEATH TOLL to prove it. This apologism, this obsession with tolerance, while actively condemning people who recognize the arab bigotry, the group-thinking, and the utter stupidity, can only be sourced from true intellectuals. It was the intellectuals who brought hitler to power. it was the intellectuals who empathized with stalin. it was the intellectuals who think you can "change" the islamic world by accomodating their bigotry.
I think your a racist pig and I'm not sure what you're doing here. The fact that a racist such as yourself would proclaim Fatah a hero essentially supports my contention.
Racist pig? Well, I am a Jew. According to most of the Arab world, "Jews are the brothers of Apes and pigs." Assad of Syria says "Israel is from Mars." I never condoned Fatah - I righteously loathe their policies, sabtoging peace treaties and demanding more money from the EU and the UN.
Palestinians are WORLD RECORD HOLDERS in foreign aid. 680million for the UNRWA, 500mill in Israeli taxes, 100million month for Hamas in Gaza, 1-2 billion PLO makes annually from drug smuggling, weapons dealing, and selling aid back to the people, and an estimated 1 billion from foreign investment every year - on top of whatever economy exists.
Even Fatah in the WB admits the territory is doing well. Only 14 checkpoints now, mostly becuase of the Israeli-trained security forces, but corruption runs deep and Fatah dubiously pays Hamas salaries in Gaza.
And the recent assembly, where Fatah refuses to resume peace talks until "Israel removes the blockade, demolishes all settlements, and release all palestinian prisoners" in addition to 14 preconditions, demonstrates the governments apathy for any kind of peace deal.
Palestinians receive 180 per capita, Congo - people receive 3 dollars per capita. And they r in much greater need, 1,000,000 more, but they dont serve the foreign policy objectives of the Islamic states who own the Human Rights Council and ensures Israel remains demonized while millions die at the hands of Akmed. Christians in Darfur couldnt care less about a state anymore, neither could the Somalias, or the Congolese, they just want to EXIST. Want to survive, but because they aren't Palestinian and don't sell newspapers they don't get a voice.
If Canadians rally against Islamic supremcaism, it's racist and islamophobic. If you rally against Israel and act as a fundamentalist mouthpiece, it's totally kosher and any criticism of it must be from TEH ISREAL lobbieys111!!!
Racist pig? Well, I am a Jew. According to most of the Arab world, "Jews are the brothers of Apes and pigs." Assad of Syria says "Israel is from Mars." I never condoned Fatah - I righteously loathe their policies, sabtoging peace treaties and demanding more money from the EU and the UN.
Palestinians are WORLD RECORD HOLDERS in foreign aid. 680million for the UNRWA, 500mill in Israeli taxes, 100million month for Hamas in Gaza, 1-2 billion PLO makes annually from drug smuggling, weapons dealing, and selling aid back to the people, and an estimated 1 billion from foreign investment every year - on top of whatever economy exists.
You may be a Jew or you may be a liar. That is immaterial. You are, however, a racist. And as racist, hateful, pathetic, and sickening as any white supremacist I have encountered on this board. I think you should fuckoff and crawl back under your rock.
Racist pig? Well, I am a Jew. According to most of the Arab world, "Jews are the brothers of Apes and pigs." Assad of Syria says "Israel is from Mars." I never condoned Fatah - I righteously loathe their policies, sabtoging peace treaties and demanding more money from the EU and the UN.
Palestinians are WORLD RECORD HOLDERS in foreign aid. 680million for the UNRWA, 500mill in Israeli taxes, 100million month for Hamas in Gaza, 1-2 billion PLO makes annually from drug smuggling, weapons dealing, and selling aid back to the people, and an estimated 1 billion from foreign investment every year - on top of whatever economy exists.
You may be a Jew or you may be a liar. That is immaterial. You are, however, a racist. And as racist, hateful, pathetic, and sickening as any white supremacist I have encountered on this board. I think you should fuckoff and crawl back under your rock.
Why am I racist????
Your hostile tone is atypical for a champion of tolerance as one would expect from Canada. The Islamic states are some of the most oppressive in the world - and if condeming their brutal treatment of women, homosexuals, Christians, Jews, their restriction of freedom, holocaust denial, institutionalized bigotry, homophobia, mysogny, antisemitism, and xenophobia...if that is RACIST, then clearly in Canada they have a much different definition.
How about we apply their form of government - their society and legal system and perspective of the world - on CANADA.
You'll be singin a much different tune. And if you dare to call them racist, you'll meet the sword.
Yes, of course. One can't stand the truth.
Had already flagged it long ago, it entered after maysie did her, shortly after 8, sweep through, how convenient, eh?
Also sent an email.
You know, trollforisrael, I used to be surprised at how eagerly racists confuse "truth" with the projection of their own guilty conscience onto a scapegoated other. The surprise is gone...I guess I've just become desensitized.
GayForIsrael,
I guess your hours are counted on this forum. Any last wishes? I am sure there are people of all faiths as well as atheists, agnostics etc.. Would you care for a last rites prayer from any? How about a Muslim Good Bye Babble prayer by Mahmud?
GayforIsreal, whales wave like misty shores and then the sun grows. The SEA sails like an old tuna and the mast erodes like a long unused seashell. The waves die and the dead quietly command the sailor.
The small sailor is the one that quietly views the old tuna. The sea weeps.
Had already flagged it long ago, it entered after maysie did her, shortly after 8, sweep through, how convenient, eh?
Also sent an email.
Yeah, I figured there would be several flags by now. ;)
It's such a boring violation of the user agreement though, isn't it? "Ugh. Muslims are all evil." That sort of racism is so very boring.
--
"One law for the lion and the ox is oppression" - Blake
GayForIsrael is, not surprisingly to anyone, banned now.
And this thread is closed.