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continued from here
...haven't much taken part in this discussion, which I believe is very important, because of the embedded pictures, with 24kbps, it takes forever to load and sometimes makes everything freeze up. Oftentimes it will only load 1/2 the picture.
Maybe a link to the pics with a thumbnail description of what one would be viewing? As loading one at a time up is easier than a whole thread. Know that is a bit of a presumptuously demanding request, as I probably am the only person here nowadays with dial up.
Perhaps someday I will join the ranks of the haves on this, but that day, unfortunately, is not today, or anytime in the near future.
Ennir, have you ever read anything about Yogananda? When he transmigrated, his body also never underwent degradation, and was described as you describe the Tibetan.
I don't think that a radically slower lack of decay at death is evidence for consciousness after death. To me, it seems more like an ability of highly trained Buddhist monks to slow down the process of death so that it lasts several weeks instead of several minutes.
remind, I do recall reading about Yogananda many years ago and the lack of degradation of the body is similiar.
Within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition there is the concept of rebirth and within that certain very developed beings are understood to have knowledge of their past lives and the ability to determine their births. They are then found through dreams lamas have and identified by their ability to recognize objects from a previous life.
I am not a Tibetan Buddhist although I do have contact with them regularly and can say that spending time with them has shown me the extraordinary manifested in everyday life.
As to what is consciousness? I recall a midwife describing the transition during the birth experience as a kind of shimmering that illuminated the whole space. What is that? I also think that with new babies it takes some time before they have really "landed". Perhaps arriving is not a sudden thing.
Perhaps death is not such a sudden exit either , in fact I am certain that death is not a sudden exit and that everyone once understood that when bodies were laid out in the parlour and family sat with the body.
Not long ago an old friend died at home and for three days afterwards his body was laid in the house and family and friends took turns sitting with him, it was obvious that when he first died his prescence still filled the room but by the third morning it was equally obvious that he had departed. What was that?
So much to discuss in your words ennir, having been in palliative care for years, and nursing family members as they were dying, I have had many viewer experiences, as well as my own. Though I am hesitant to share given the lack of safety at babble.
There seems to be a post of mine missing as, I responded to pants prior...will have tonow reformulate what my response was.
I hope you will share some of your experience remind.
I think the "The Book" that you were were referring to that contained the incident you mention was called, Autobiography of a Yogi, by Paramahansa Yognanda?
I am on dial up too.
Unfortunately, until rural areas are brought forward into the current internet speeds, it is something we have to contend with. From a rural location, who do we serve, the minority, or, the vast majority? The fight for the minority is going strong.:)
[quote=Pants of Dogs]To me, it seems more like an ability of highly trained Buddhist monks to slow down the process of death so that it lasts several weeks instead of several minutes.[/quote]
More likely, that they can choose their time to depart. Also, not having to contend with "being Lost in the fog,"in having attained a clarity with regard to the clear light, they can move quite quickly to this mind/body termnation?
Yes spectrum, part of the account was contained in Autobiography of a Yogi, however, I had the great blessing of studying under a disciple of his, for several years. As such, the accounting was done verbally with me. ;)
I would say more slowly rather than more quickly.
[quote=Pants of Dog]I would say more slowly rather than more quickly.[/quote]
Imagine being able to choose the time without all the biological decay in saying physically good-bye?? The body may exist for your observance and I am not sure of it's science, but I truly believe as subjective as this says, they do not have to contend with the issues of materiality as a mean of expression. They have moved on to the "before birth" as Jas once implied.
As I was taught, in every lie therein lays a grain of truth.
Fo rme, the issue was/is disciple, and discipline, and deference.
Even though the ways and means we came together, exists out side of normal parameters that people will accept as reality happening. Thus, I should have had, or have, less resistance to discipleship. Though I do recognize "the path" of spiritual eldership and succession of it.
Spectrum on the last thread you said, "As with different cultures around the world there is much that can be learnt from the Tibetans. In a practical and straight forward sense, the Dalai Lama's books are pretty straight forward. I do not see any inclination to this part of this history in his writing(after death consciousness) other then to think about a Meaningful Life and how his words are signs about the travel that we are all going to take. His interest in where science is today."
I am not sure I understand what you said but I would not assume that the books written by the Dalai Lama address the totality of the teachings, his books are written for westerners who are assumed to be uninitiated into esoteric Buddhism. From my perspective, the Dalai Lama is offering teachings that those hearing can comprehend, basic teachings.
What is consciousness? In Buddhism consciousness is just one of the five skandhas, the five skandhas form what we call the self, the other four are form, feelings, perceptions and impulses. From this perspective how could consciousness continue? But are we defined by consciouness? What is this field that we inhabit which includes consciousness but is not limited to it?
For me this teacher's death defied conventional science, bodies decay, his did not. We arrive into a description of reality but he proved that the description is just that. I called him Mr. Endless Joy, he was mischievious, radiant and wickedly funny. Absolutely fearless, eyeball to eyeball grinning all the way, and the most extraordinary thing was that he was normal. LOL
[Quote=ennir]From my perspective, the Dalai Lama is offering teachings that those hearing can comprehend, basic teachings[/quote]
Yes I agree with that from my perspective as well. This understanding can change from day to day, as for every informative point given and is accepted, changes the way we can now look at the world we live in. It prepares us, for new insights as we move along. What page an individual reads, someone else definitely depending on their understanding, takes from it, totally something else.
[quote]In Buddhism consciousness is just one of the five skandhas, the five skandhas form what we call the self, the other four are form, feelings, perceptions and impulses. From this perspective how could consciousness continue? But are we defined by consciouness? What is this field that we inhabit which includes consciousness but is not limited to it?[/quote]
It is part of the observance of knowing these differences in the way consciousness is?
For westerners we understand the wording of emotions and intellect, yet we do not understand the differences that such feelings and thoughts have us "gravitating toward," while knowing, that each successive step, paves the way for a new tomorrow? A tone?
Such "intonations" consolidate things around us? We want the finer things of spirituality to permeate all our thoughts? How can we do that if we are unruly inside with these emotions? Ever the struggle to walk on stormy waters?:)
What is consciousness? Is a good question:)
Egad! it should have read "truth in their lives" not lies.:) Corrected
[quote=Remind]Though I do recognize "the path" of spiritual eldership and succession of it.[/quote]
Like the Dalai Lama being chosen based on items, that as a youth he selected when laid before him, to warrant recognition of the past incarnation, too acceptance as successorship as the new Dalai Lama?
Individuals, that had been spiritually entrained with the words of the predecessors? No possibility of recognition of this eldership within each of us if we choose to recognize it?
[quote=Remind]As such, the accounting was done verbally with me. ;)[/quote]
So many disciplines and so few disciples? A free agent and accepting the environ your in, does not preclude anyone from finding some truth in their lives. Just have to look for it. Look into one self.
The point is that anyone is capable of asking those deep questions and listening for the answers, are never to far away if you know that the answers can come from within as well. You do not need to be on another continent.
Spectrum...no religion, as spirituality requires no religion.
[quote=Remind]as spirituality requires no religion.[/quote]
I agree with you as I wanted to see if you were actually attached to any religion per say and would had strong feeling about the interpretation of spirituality based on some form of that religion. So your answer was nice to know.
[quote]Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality; an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.[/quote] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
Could we say then that spirituality and higher consciousness, are very close in their interpretations? ennir what do you think?
[quote]Higher consciousness is generally regarded as a developed state of consciousness in which aspects of the mind, such as thought, perception and attention, are improved, refined and enhanced. It is considered thus to be a higher level of consciousness relative to ordinary consciousness, in the sense that a greater awareness of reality is achieved. In a secular context, higher consciousness is usually associated with exceptional control over one's mind and will, intellectual and moral enlightenment, and profound personal growth.. In a spiritual context, it may also be associated with transcendence, spiritual enlightenment, and union with the divine.[/quote] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_consciousness
I like what you have said here, I feel your use of "gravitating toward" and "intonations" are words that lend themselves to a more subtle understanding of reality. In my view, this is where intention comes into play and the critical need to be aware of one's deepest intention because it is our deepest intention that lays the groundwork for future states of mind.
As to the "struggle to walk on stormy waters" my experience is that through meditation practice one can sink deep beneath the stormy waters to a place of equanimity.
It does sound like higher consciousness and spirituality are alike as far as the definitions go. My interest is how does this (higher consciousness or spirituality) manifest in a person's life? These days it seems there are many people wanting to have a spiritual experience of life but in perceiving spirituality to be something that transcends reality they miss the opportunity to embody it.
Oops, forgot this, "It is part of the observance of knowing these differences in the way consciousness is? I am sorry I don't know if I understand the question. From a Zen Buddhist practice perspective understanding the skandhas allows us to pry our minds away from the conventional view of reality that we have been taught. Think of it as layers, the deepest being form, the ground of our experience which has not yet been named, then feelings (not emotions) positive, negative, neutral and these are a kind of "gravitating toward", next perceptions (intonations)as in naming the world, followed by impulses which are the ways in which we act in the world, and finally there is consciousness which is the repository for the manifestations of the first four and within which dwells the notion that there is a fixed and abiding self which is directing the traffic of the first four.
Rethought and edited.
Spectrum, I agree with you that one can be a spiritual person without affiliation to any religion but as someone who does have a formal practice I think that it is not the affiliation with religion that is the problem, the problem is the attachment to the idea that there is just one way of being spiritual.
Ennir do you find Buddhism overly masculine?
remind, the actual practice I find neither masculine or feminine or alternately inclusive of the feminine and masculine. What attracted me to Zen in the first place was a Paul Reps book in which there were a number of women shown showing up men as not understanding the dharma. However, Buddhism has entered our culture mostly through through men and men who, in my view, took on teaching responsibilites without a mature experience of practice. This is changing as women mature and take on those responsibilities with a different view on the power dynamics between teacher and student. So, my answer is no and yes. :)
Good answer, and actually clarifies my own thinking on it...
Thank you... :)
[quote=ennir]My interest is how does this (higher consciousness or spirituality) manifest in a person's life? These days it seems there are many people wanting to have a spiritual experience of life but in perceiving spirituality to be something that transcends reality they miss the opportunity to embody it.[/quote]
From what I have learnt, being a free agent, is that the highest forms of spirituality already exist within ourselves. It is the becoming aware that such can exist. That we realize who "our father in heaven is?" So we are never far away from the understanding that maybe, under all these gross things of materiality, that the degrees of our "mental finesse and our attachments," our "gravitating toward" makes way for the understanding that we can experience the finer manifestations of what spirituality means as we become aware, much as you might trace the lineage of the five skandhas within self .
[quote]In Buddhism consciousness is just one of the five skandhas, the five skandhas form what we call the self, the other four are form, feelings, perceptions and impulses. From this perspective how could consciousness continue? But are we defined by consciousness? What is this field that we inhabit which includes consciousness but is not limited to it?[/quote]
Your answer to me about "the struggle to walk on stormy waters" that "one can sink deep beneath the stormy waters to a place of equanimity," is of interest to me, because it is in learning about oneself by awareness and observance you learn to understand your reactions. The memories you build, and the choices one can make to learn to react differently.Oh! what a struggle.
But I think you know it is much deeper then that, as you mention meditation, it is one of the things I have long struggled with. I learnt to watch something else in terms of where glimpses of the higher self can manifest. Our dreams. It is a language, that we can creatively manifest and see that our actions can have deeper consequences through our review. Who might have recognized their teacher this way?
Who might of recognized that the mind in that time, is the mind of our death? If you cannot understand that chaos within self, then how would you have learnt to interpret the actions on the face of how we lived the every day world around us? Is this how you will carry this everyday world into your death?
[quote]I agree with you that one can be a spiritual person without affiliation to any religion but as someone who does have a formal practice I think that it is not the affiliation with religion that is the problem, the problem is the attachment to the idea that there is just one way of being spiritual.[/quote]
Yes, I agree with you. So it is nice to be aware that such a "leading perspective on religion" that there is not only "one way" to be spiritual. It can manifest in everyone of us in any moment?
[quote]Oops, forgot this "It is part of the observance of knowing these differences in the way consciousness is? [/quote]
I hope I have explain this in the responses to you?
Found the appropriate thread for article link provided by Fidel from here. [quote]
New study: What really happens when you die?
The AWARE (Awareness During Resuscitation) study is an international scientific investigation into the “out-of-body” phenomena that some have reported after having near-death experiences. New research indicates that death does not come in a single moment, but is rather a process.
[quote]“With ever-improving discoveries, we will be able to bring even more people back to life from clinical death,” Parnia continued. “It is paramount for physicians to be able to provide a scientific understanding of what happens to the brain and body and, more importantly, the human mind and consciousness, during death.”[/quote][/quote]
This is interesting: Bridging the Gap
Caltech Neuroscientists Find Normal Brain Communication in People Who Lack Connections Between Right and Left Hemisphere
[quote]PASADENA, Calif.-Like a bridge that spans a river to connect two major metropolises, the corpus callosum is the main conduit for information flowing between the left and right hemispheres of our brains. Now, neuroscientists at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) have found that people who are born without that link-a condition called agenesis of the corpus callosum, or AgCC-still show remarkably normal communication across the gap between the two halves of their brains.[/quote]
Could the brain be using EM fields to communicate between hemispheres?
Raymond Moody, author of Life After Life published in 1975 has written another: Paranormal: My Life in Pursuit of the Afterlife
The first book reviewer is not very generous. Apparently Moody had a rough childhood. First half of the book is a rehash of his life. The second half is interesting according to some reviewers.
REMINDER to please respect the first poster's request to refrain from posting photos.
I`ve read the tibetan book of the dead and other similar tomes in my supple yogic youth and ironically(?) I believed in a continuing consciousness more then than I do in my forties.
I believe today the question for me is irrelevant. I can from observation only be aware of my present, therefore a previous, or future consciousness is but a fantasy I can choose to believe in or not.
A Inherent Pattern of Consciousness
I've sort of been busy re framing my explorations always trying to elucidate something that always seems just at the edge. hey I guess that is why each of us is unique in that the pathway traveled can never be exactly the same for everyone?
[quote=from the Preface to Not to be Taken at Night]
"Modern civilization consists of the living dead. Why then should we object to the dead living?"
-- attributed to Sir Devendra P. Varma, who teaches Gothic fiction at Dalhousie University.
[quote]"When the province of physical theory was extended to encompass microscopic phenomena through the creation of quantum mechanics, the concept of consciousness came to the fore again. It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness." - Eugene Wigner
"The doctrine that the world is made up of objects whose existence is independent of human consciousness turns out to be in conflict with quantum mechanics and with facts established by experiment." - Bernard d'Espagnat
"Nobody understands quantum mechanics." - Richard Feynman
Is it not good to know what follows from what, even if it is not necessarily FAPP? [FAPP is [John Stewart Bell's suggested abbreviation of "for all practical purposes."] Suppose for example that quantum mechanics were found to resist precise formulation. Suppose that when formulation beyond FAPP was attempted, we find an unmovable finger obstinately pointing outside the subject, to the mind of the observor, to the Hindu scriptures, to God, or even only Gravitation? Would that not be very, very interesting?Quoted in "Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness", by Rosenblum, B. and Fred Kuttner[/quote]
Metacognition is defined as "cognition about cognition", or "knowing about knowing." It can take many forms; it includes knowledge about when and how to use particular strategies for learning or for problem solving.
Thus, primary consciousness refers to being mentally aware of things in the world in the present without any sense of past and future; it is composed of mental images bound to a time around the measurable present.
By contrast, secondary consciousness depends on and includes such features as self-reflective awareness, abstract thinking, volition and metacognition.
The AIM Model introduces a new hypothesis that primary consciousness is an important building block on which secondary consciousness is constructed.
I guess we can all agree on a couple of things. This John Smith or Mary Smith, when dead, will never return. Whether there is an eternal consciousness or not, doesn`t refute the reality that THIS body wil cease to exist at some pôint.
The other thing we can agree on is that if there is an eternal consciousness, it is for some reason unaware of any past lives and is thus for all intents and purposes pointless. What does it matter if you were donald machivellian in 1847 if you have no recollection of lifes learning trials? Thus we are destined to live one life, and one life only, with the lessons learned never to be understood.
Just a big ol`ball of fun.
I think that's one of many possibilities for the way it is. Tip: Don't bet on winning the lottery.
Well regardless of continued conciosness (fuck i hate that word, i keep misspelling it), the lottery is futile.
Well if there is no proof positive of a human soul, and scientific explanation of the mind-body paradox is as hard to know as quantum physics, then all that's left is anecdotal evidence and stories from other human beings who have had extraordinary experiences. As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Dr. Melvin Morse
[quote] In 1982, while a Fellow for the National Cancer Institute, Dr. Morse was working in a clinic in Pocatello, Idaho. He was called to revive a young girl who nearly died in a community swimming pool. She had had no heart beat for 19 minutes, yet completely recovered. She was able to recount many details of her own resuscitation, and then said that she was taken down a brick lined tunnel to a heavenly place. When Dr. Morse showed his obvious skepticism, she patted him shyly on the hand and said: "Don't worry, Dr. Morse, heaven is fun!."[/quote]
Kids say the darndest things.