"There's probably no God"
January 8, 2009 - 8:07pm
'No God' campaign draws complaint
excerpt: The adverts contain the slogan: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."
Saw on CBC Newsworld last night the new adverts appearing on London
buses saying "There's probably no God". The Advertising Standards Authority has been asked to ban these on the grounds that there is no evidence to justify this assertion. I thought the bus adverts were way cool, and sure to stimulate debate. 
London, Ontario?
London, Ontario?
If only!
Sadly, no, it's London, England. (there's a photo of one of the buses at my link)
Bertrand Russell, the atheist whacko who wanted the USA to nuke the USSR after the war?
The link indicates clearly that it's London, England. Such a campaign is a bit too risque for Canada.
Still trying to wrap my brain around the logic: there is no evidence to justify the assertion that there probably is no god.
Double negative, plus a conditional. What the heck????......
And here's my favourite Christian-themed button slogans:
Jesus is coming...look busy
I found Jesus: he was behind the couch the whole time
Such a campaign is too risque for anywhere religious nuts have access to small arms.
I appreciate the oh-so-Briddish puckish sense of humour but even Old Blighty isn't as safe from extremists as it once was.
For a moment. just a moment, I was alive with glee. Oh, well. Should have noticed the link as obvious and in bold as it is.
You almost thought Hubble had sent back images of infinity and beyond? Or what were you thinking?
I love it. I drive a bus and it's amazing how many people get on and comment about whatever drivel we have splashed across the sides. This would be a real talk starter.
The British Humanist Association (BHA) aimed to raise £5,500, but £136,197 has already been donated to the Atheist Bus Campaign. . . in only one week.
The £136,197 raised has mainly come via small online donations, and includes £23,338 from Gift Aid and £5,500 from prominent atheist Professor Richard Dawkins, a supporter of the Atheist Bus Campaign.
Mr Dawkins agreed to match the BHA's expected amount.
The total of £11,000 would be enough to fund two sets of atheist adverts on 30 London buses for four weeks, which is due to begin in Westminster in January as planned.
"It's great that we've exceeded our initial target by so much, but it's been even more amazing that so many of the contributions have come in the form of small donations - this is a real grass roots campaign. "
Due to the unexpected amount raised, the BHA said it hopes to extend the reach of the the campaign to Birmingham, Manchester, and Edinburgh, following the suggestions of supporters.
It also plans to have the slogans on trains and billboards too.
The BHA said that as a result of the campaign the association has 200 new members.
What would it cost to rent a double-decker bus with the ad on it and park it in front of Harpo Studios in Chicago when they're taping The Oprah Show?
And here's my favourite Christian-themed button slogans:
Jesus is coming...look busy
I found Jesus: he was behind the couch the whole time
"Christ is coming -- and boy, is he pissed."
I'd love one of those - where can I get one?
Oh Good God
TORONTO, ONTARIO--(MARKET WIRE)--Oct 28, 2008 -- Inspired by the British Humanist Association (BHA)'s "THERE'S PROBABLY NO GOD" advertising campaign being promoted in England - Scarborough, ON based Bus Stop Bible Studies is launching a "GOD ON EVERY BUS" campaign. Their hope is to raise sufficient funds to post their challenging but often uplifting messages inside every bus and subway car in Canada - one $5 donation at a time.
Quick donate to the Humanist Assosiation in Toronto
How about: "Jesus hates you."
BTW here is a website I came across a little while ago with good bumperstickers
Some of my favourites:
When Religion Ruled the World They called it the Dark Ages
Any Book Worth Banning is a Book Worth Reading
Atheism Cures Religious Terrorism
When you see a Rainbow God is having Gay Sex
Born Again Atheist
Born OK The First Time
Believing Bullshit Will Not Make it Come True
"Jesus loves you - but I'm his favourite."
"Jesus and I are just friends, that's all."
God doesn't believe in me either - things even out
Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church
Jesus loves you ... the rest of us can't stand you.
Going to Church Doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car.
Removing mine, as I actually don't mind Jesus, it's all the other stuff built up around him.
this is great. Probably no God make life that much easier. no god. no accountability. no fretting over right or wrong, no proof therefore no God.
From Rory McLeod:
He's my God,
He loves me but he
Can't stand you.
Those are great.
Anybody have any Muslim jokes?
What utter nonsense. I consider myself deeply agnostic, which is basically functionally atheist. One thing I remember my father saying to me about religious people (fundamentalists especially) is that they do the right because they're being watched -- we do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. We're all accountable to each other, and not believing in some omnipotent being that takes a special interest actually can make you think a good deal more about the nature of right and wrong. Unlike religions that give you a dictum on what that means without you having to work anything out internally. If the god's messenger (ie: clergy), says we should stone someone to death, who are we to argue? Horrible things have been done to other humans on the basis of religious belief -- don't think for an instant that having a god to believe in exempts one from committing atrocities.
Oh Timebandit, you fed him! ;)
Anyhow, I think it's hilarious that religious freaks are trying to get the ads down on the basis that there's "no evidence" that they're true.
From what I understand, this was a response to all these religious ads on the bus with bible quotes. And yes, I know those stupid "bus stop bible studies" well. If they're allowed to advertise their religion, then surely other people are allowed to advertise their lack of superstition.
Things didn't work out quite the same way in Australia:
The Atheist Foundation of Australia was knocked back by Australia's biggest outdoor advertising company, APN Outdoor, on its proposal for a nationwide campaign featuring atheist slogans.
The campaign - with slogans such as "Sleep in on Sunday mornings" and "Celebrate reason" - follows successful attempts by the British and American Humanist Associations to raise awareness for atheism in London and Washington.
APN Outdoor cited no reason for rejecting the $16,000 public transport campaign, and declined to comment.
snip...
APN Outdoor refused to comment on whether the company's clients include religious organisations, but Mr Nicholls said buses in Adelaide had been adorned with religious messages such as "John 3:16". He also approached bus advertisers in Hobart, with the same result.
snip...
... most Australians were too apathetic about religion to be affected negatively by the campaign. "If religions can buy advertising space, then why not atheists?"
Friar Peter McGrath, of St Francis of Assisi Catholic parish in Paddington, agreed.
"The [atheists] should have a right to advertise. They should be able to say what they want."
The atheists are taking their case to the Tasmanian Anti-Discrimination Board.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/01/08/1231004199169.html
Still trying to wrap my brain around the logic: there is no evidence to justify the assertion that there probably is no god.
Double negative, plus a conditional. What the heck????......
No kidding! What a hilarious objection to the signs! I wonder if they get just as upset when some billboard declares that the latest Clint Eastwood flick is 'Brilliant! Five Stars! Angelina Jolie is probably Oscar material!'
ETA: I just watched an 'interview' on Channel 4 (maybe the equivalent of a sensationalistic CTV) where the windbag host launched some hardball questions at one of the people behind the campaign (didn't catch her name) about 'how do you prove that there is 'probably no god?' She dealt with it easily, of course, but what was interesting is that when asked about what might happen if she couldn't prove the statement, she said that they acted on advice from the London Transport Commission: they said that they would probably get into trouble if they said 'There is no God' but that 'probably no God' would 'probably' be alright.
Boom Boom, I know a nastier version:
"Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you're an asshole"
And one more:
"Jesus is okay, it's his fan club I can't stand"
P.S. to Refuge: those were fantastic! Love the garage one!
What a great idea - love it!
The bumper stickers and pins are also wonderful. I would take issue with the one saying "when religion ruled the world, we called it the dark ages"...doesn't religion still rule the world? It seems that way anyways.
I especially loved "Don't pray in my schools and I won't think in your Church".
Not to feed the troll, but religion is the last think you need to justify right and wrong. Especially the idea that you can sin, sin, sin and then go sit in confession for a few minutes and all is forgiven. Where is the incentive not to sin there? Steal, cheat, murder....all will be forgiven! I see living justly for its own sake as much more moral than doing it to get something for one's self (ie heaven, etc.)
Hi Michelle
The reason the slogan is worded the way it is is because it was designed to be as least offensive, aggressive, "in yer face" as possible. The BHA was expecting complaints and figured that something vague wouldn't provide too much traction for the complaints to be taken seriously.
They ( the BHA ) were also trying to avoid the "angry atheist" stereotype, preferring instead to let "the audience" make up their own minds.
Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church
Now this is gold
Oh Timebandit, you fed him! ;)
Anyhow, I think it's hilarious that religious freaks are trying to get the ads down on the basis that there's "no evidence" that they're true.
From what I understand, this was a response to all these religious ads on the bus with bible quotes. And yes, I know those stupid "bus stop bible studies" well. If they're allowed to advertise their religion, then surely other people are allowed to advertise their lack of superstition.
I know, I know... My judgement was impaired due to lack of sleep and overwork.
PZ Myers' blog, Pharyngula has lots to say about the reaction of the religious faction over the buses, too. Funny.
Oh Timebandit, you fed him! ;)
Anyhow, I think it's hilarious that religious freaks are trying to get the ads down on the basis that there's "no evidence" that they're true.
From what I understand, this was a response to all these religious ads on the bus with bible quotes. And yes, I know those stupid "bus stop bible studies" well. If they're allowed to advertise their religion, then surely other people are allowed to advertise their lack of superstition.
It would be nice if the put the same criteria onto other advertisements. "Is there any real evidence that if you use this face cream that will be pretty and men will swoon over me?" "Is there any evidence that if I drive this car that I will indeed be cool and my life better for it?"
I totally agree with the hypocrisy in thinking that bible quotes is a-ok and this isn't.
From someone who has a faith belief, though not fundy of course, I think that that these signs are great and hilarious, because of the reaction by the holier then thou and they don't bug me one iota. Far as am concerned if whatever one believe is so threatened by a statement like this, or *gasp* that other people out there actually think this a would say it out loud then it's more a problem with ones personal thinking or security then the others one is whining about.
I detest this whole persecution complex thing that some religious people seem to have in spades and how it manifests in things like this and other "War on Christmas" type BS.
My version would probably read like this. "God probably doesn't care as much as you think. Get over it. Now stop worrying your knickers about it and enjoy your life."
My gay brother has a bumper sticker that has a rainbow with the words "Jesus, protect me from your followers".
That's a good one. I've seen that one, as well as this one:
Boom Boom, I know a nastier version:
"Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you're an asshole"
My favourite version was "Even Jesus hates you".
von Neumann probe sans bumper stickerAs for the slogan being used "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." Well, what better example can you show of what happens when you send an agnostic out to do an atheist's job.
Sometimes, Fidel, a cigar is just a cigar. That looks like a Havanna.
Sure, there is no tangible physical proof. And that's especially so if we throw out all of the eye witness evidence throughout history, the photographic, and the radar. Imperialists would like nothing better than for us to think in terms of "TINA" and technological imperialism in their small, small circle of control.
God. It's only a theory.
It's funny. I find atheists are fairly religious about adhering to their own unproven notions. They want us to believe that something is true. And the odd time, some of them will admit they arent sure what it is either.
God's like bigfoot and Leprechauns. I don't claim they don't exist.
I'm just waiting for the evidence.
You atheists are so serial all'a time. More bumper sticker humour, please.
Athiests for Jesus.
"If you're not an atheist, you're not reading the bible properly."
"if there is a god, he is a malign thug" --- Mark Twain.
"faith is believing what you know ain't so."--- Samuel Clemons.
I believe those guys were contemporaries.
God's like bigfoot and Leprechauns. I don't claim they don't exist.
I'm just waiting for the evidence.
Little guys with black belt buckles and green hats?
What if one particular species of them are short and grey with big black eyes and zip across the universe through tears in the fabric of space-time?
I dont claim to know either way, just saying that I am not one of the many to claim to have seen and continue to report such things. Are all of these people crazy or masters of photoshop fakery? Or are first-hand accounts the most simple and elegant explanations of them all?
• If God wanted people to believe in him, why did he invent logic?
• If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?
• Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
If God existed, we wouldn't have to invent Him.
“What does it mean for a civilization to be a million years old? We have had radio telescopes and spaceships for a few decades; our technical civilization is a few hundred years old... an advanced civilization millions of years old is as much beyond us as we are beyond a bush baby or a macaque.” - Carl Sagan
YouTube: When an atheist meets God.
Ooops. Wrong thread.
Why Worry? Be Atheist
- Globe and Mail
Shazam! Everyone's atheist, heads emptied of the ten commandments, and have become well versed in Dawkins and Hitchens, Bertrand Russell, Nietzche, Heidegger and whatever the rich and powerful might fill our newly voided minds for rent with. Now what? What's the big prize for laying out some insignificant and still unproven truth for billions of people so plainly?
When do we become a type I civilization on the Kardashev scale? It's a long time coming, you say? If we dont achieve something like Vernor Vinge's technological singularity some time before destroying the planet and every living thing that depends on it, then will it matter if no one in the universe hears us fall? Just another failed Darwinian experiment in a quiet corner of the multiverse? I think there is a holy grail for the left and all good logicians in general. Wasting time with the unknowable isnt it. Prolific book-writing atheists are not our saviours. In fact, it's their firm belief in their individual selves and personal cunning to separate a fool and his money.
Arthur: "It was I. I led you! I bred you!"
Zed: "I have looked into the face of the force which put the idea in your head. You are led and bred yourself"
Nietzsche is dead.
-- God
Everyone is an atheist when they cross a busy street.
This one's for the trolls:
"Proud parent of an atheist student"
"I think, therefore I'm an atheist"
"There's a sucker born again every minute"
"Too stupid to understand science? Try religion."
"God doesn't kill people. People who believe in God kill people."
"Actually, if you look it up, the Winter Solstice is the Reason for the Season"
"Jesus told me Republicans SUCK"
"Intelligent Design: Helping stupid people feel smart since 1987"
"Every time you play with yourself, God kills a kitten"
"The Spanish Inquisition: The Original Faith-Based Initiative"
"I went to high school in Kansas and all I got was this lousy t-shirt and a poor understanding of the scientific method"
"Oh Look, Honey, another pro-lifer for war"
"I love Christians. They taste like chicken"
"Worship me or I will torture you forever. Have a Nice Day!"
"Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers"
And finally,
"If God wanted people to believe in him, then why did He invent logic?"
"Every time you play with yourself, God kills a kitten"
Sineed, now I have to post this photo, once again.
And that photo always reminds me of this one, completely unrelated, or so it seems.....
That's cute. Thanks Sineed. And if we could possibly make courses in logic and science and all manner of education universally accessible, then this blue marble in space might some day be recognized by others for all the creativity and intellectual genius we might be capable of. For now though I really dont believe that religion is the barrier. And it's illogical to say that because some religionists are known pedofiles, all pedofiles must therefore be religionists. That kind of logic will not catapult us into the future where we might have been, say, if public education had been the rule since the time that the first murdering cutthroats roamed the earth and declared themselves royalty and nobles.
On the issue of discovering other intelligent civilizations in the universe on the order of a million years or more older than our own, Michio Kaku pondered what we might say to a colony of ants here in our own world. Hi, here we are. Here is some valuable technology for you to make good use of. And, "Take us to your leader"? Would the ants even realize we're there unless we squash a few of them first?
"Every time you play with yourself, God kills a kitten"
Sineed, now I have to post this photo, once again.
And that photo always reminds me of this one, completely unrelated, or so it seems.....
1st pic: God sure works in mysterious ways. What are those things He sends after the kittens? Carnivorous Dove bars??
2nd pic: Maybe Dalton McGuinty has some recipes
(NB: explanatory link for non-Ontarians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_reptilian_kitten-eater_from_another_planet )
True, eliminating the more egregious aspects of religion does not mean we will enjoy a utopia. The only people who claim it will are those who mean to deffend religion. It's the straw person arguement.
It will, however, be a good step in the direction to a more peacefull world. Religion poisons everything. As someone once said.
I've given up on the notion of other intelligent life making contact with us. We are close to being able to deduce the make up of atmosphere's of planets outside our solar system. A civilization just a few centuries more advanced than us should have found this planet very interesting a long time ago.
But who knows? Maybe they already have, and decided to leave us alone because we were busy tying women to stakes and lighting them on fire at the time.
This universe is ~ 13.73±0.12 billion years old. One million years is just a tiny fraction of that time span - the blink of an eye by comparison. And you could be right about them having visited us already. Mysterious sightings go back a long time in history
"Mr Mulder, they have been here for a long, long time" -- X Files Deep Throat
Several world religious views of creation describe stories of exogenesis, which are so wild and other worldly that science fiction writers of turn of the last century would have been inspired.
The problem with God is religion. Look, the guy has the absolute worst PR flacks. In fact, it explains a lot. God doesn't just have a PR firm, he has a damn good many of them and everyone claims to be the exclusive agent. How many contracts did God sign? And if God can't manage to hire a single PR firm to develp a single uniform brand and message, how the hell can he be expected to manage a whole world? Obviously, from a cursory glance about, he can't. If there is in fact a God, he's fired. No wonder we can't see him. He's avoiding us.
Seriously though, our planet gives off a pretty funny signature to anyone who knows basic chemistry. The amounts of Oxygen and methane can't be explained without a biological element.
Maybe it means that technologically advanced civilizations are short lived, and because of distance the odds are infinately against two such civilizations existing at the same time.
Or, maybe they saw this planet, sent a message, and Tyrannasaurus Rex didn't quite get the jist of it.
Either way, even as much as I would not like to believe it, I have come to think that we are either alone, or quarantined by distance and time.
I also think we are looking in the wrong places, for intelligent life. Currently, we are checking out sun like stars for radio signals.
I would think a better bet would be to check out brown dwarf stars. They are the longest burning-- some might in fact be "imortal" in terms of star's "life spans" in our universe.
If one were to leave a mark in the universe, I think it more likely that one would put it in some kind of "Library of Alexandria" orbiting a star that would provide energy for billions of years.
Michio Kaku's a clever cookie. He posits that perhaps SETI isnt receiving decipherable messages from space because they are looking at too narrow a bandwith in the EM spectrum. Perhaps the clever civilizations are sending encoded messages through and around us using something like internet protocols, packetized information sent in sequenced "box cars" over a network of various paths through the galaxy and capable of correcting the message at the receiving end for out of sequence packets, background noise and signal loss through electromagnetic storms, very large and inpenetrable objects of various kinds etc. That's one possibility. And Kaku says it could be a mistake for SETI to be broadcasting our whereabouts into deep space. Who knows what kind of civilization is listening and what their intentions toward us might be? It might be better to listen than to talk.
They might want their oil from under our feet!
And what if they stopped using oil some time ago? Maybe theyre cooking with gas now.
What if "Gort" the robot in the 1951 sci-fi, The Day the Earth Stood Still, was actually the leader of a silicon-based civilization of conscious beings and Klaatu his humanoid servant? Wouldnt that be a shocking revelation? And, what if The Day the Earth Stood Still was actually a Hollywood documentary depicting an event that really happened? There are a number of sci-fi writers who've asked the same questions pondered by astronomers and scientists the world over.
In the sci-fi thriller, The Thing from Another World, why were the Norwegians shooting at the dog?
"Who knows what has come from the galaxy? Who knows what lurks in the sky? Beyond God. Watch those around you. For who knows what today, tonight, or tomorrow will bring."
I can see why you're easily given to the whole God thing ...
As Tommy alluded to above, it might only take a civilization more technologically advanced than us by several centuries to qualify as god-like to us as we were several thousand years ago perhaps. There exists an isolated tribe of people in New Guinea? that began worshiping a the likeness of a small passenger airplane made out of straw made by them in likeness of the actual one and the people who made first contact from the "civilized" world some time ago.
I think atheists take themselves far too seriously. Dawkins and Hitchens are clever people writing some interesting books, dont get me wrong. But I do think you should save your money for something worthwhile. Sci-fi can be just as entertaining.
Too seriously? Please. I can honestly say that I have not heard the voice of any non-entity telling me to kill people or invade Iraq. Nor have I ever felt the need to persecute those who approach atheism with a different set of doctrines than I. Perhaps because I have no doctrines. In any case, I think atheists have a far lighter hearts than all those young masturbators believing their going to hell for spilling God's silver seed.
Too seriously? Please. I can honestly say that I have not heard the voice of any non-entity telling me to kill people or invade Iraq.
The Crusades and century after century of bloody wars of conquest were never on direct orders from God. And God didnt tell Harry Truman to incincerate several hundred thousand human beings at Hiroshima and Nagasaki or for anyone else to commit a list of unspeakable horrors in recent history. You can trust me on this one.
Ya let's lighten it up a little. All this talk of god and man-made hell on earth is depressing.
If there is no God, who's voice inside my head telling me to take part in the crusade?
There is someone in your head, webgear?
Who's been instructing mujahiden and Taliban on holy old jihad since the 1980s? Remember to follow the money.
If there is in fact a God, he's fired. No wonder we can't see him. He's avoiding us.
Maybe it's just a phone tree maze.
"Your call is important. Please stay on the line and your call will be answered by the next available deity."
webgear, no crusade!...get all your money together, max out you credit cards, and make a donation to rabble.ca. then I will love you.
“We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projects and it would take an act of GOD to ever get them out to benefit humanity” - Ben Rich, former head of Lockheed skunkworks
Hey, let's get serious...
God knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here
An' the book says:
"He made us all to be just like Him," so...
If we're dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)
— Frank Zapppa
_______________________________________
Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
People that believe in all this God jibberish should be nailed to a cross.
Meh! It's been done!
There is scant scientific proof that "god" or something god-like does not exist somewhere in the void. And some people are afraid to admit that they just dont know.
Former Lockheed skunkworks engineer Boyd Bushman, co-creator of the stinger missile and other imperialist weapons of destruction, talks about traveling not at the speed of light, but at the "speed of thought", and of leading edge scientific research into four additional universal forces. The truth is out there - and just enough to create a reasonable amount doubt in people's minds wrt just about everything. IFF any of this is true, then it would strongly suggest that there has indeed been contact with something quite a bit larger and more technologically advanced than ourselves.
Nothing, of course, travels faster than the speed of rumour. When and if we ever do make contact with another intelligence, the first thing they'll says is, "Yeah, we heard about you."
And as usual, Fidel, you have the onus on the wrong foot. Atheists don't have to prove there isn't a god, or gods. It's up to the religious to make the case.
Given that they've had at the least, 10,000 years to prove the claim, and have provided nothing, I'd say the god hypothesis is, well, suffering.
Likewise, those who preach to me that there is no "god" have had ample time to prove it to me beyond a doubt. Afterall, our technical civilization has existed for two or three centuries to now, and that would surely seem impressive to any other civilization in the universe posessing what might seem to us to be god-like knowledge and technological capabilities. Surely they would be amazed we've managed to avoid blowing ourselves to smithereens in the meantime.
Faith. Faith drives a lot of of human interactions. We have to have faith in fiat money, for example, because it's the life blood of our capitalist economies. We have to have faith in Maple Leaf butchers that they'll provide us with edible food and not skip necessary safety procedures. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow and that I'll have to clean the front step off. The mailman may or may not have faith in me that it will be safe enough to step on without slipping, and so on and so on. As far as I'm concerned, the probability is 50% that there is or there is not. That's the most honest assessment I've been able to convince myself is worthwhile concluding. I'm not afraid to admit that I don't know
And as usual, Fidel, you have the onus on the wrong foot. Atheists don't have to prove there isn't a god, or gods. It's up to the religious to make the case.
I'm not bothered either way. I'm somewhat prepared mentally for what will likely be an excruciatingly painful death, and a long and drawn out one. I just know it.
But the honest to goodness truth is, Tommy, that atheists arent sure about what's out there either. Dont let anyone tell you the way it is according to their narrow point of view, because they just dunno. And you can trust me on this one. And that's the most truthful thing that's been said in this thread to date.
One of the best US bumperstickers:
"Dont let anyone tell you the way it is according to their narrow point of view, because they just dunno."
But then, according to that, I can't listen to what you just told me.
It's all a grand paradox, innit?
Sounds like you're trying to convert me to agnosticism. Which, actually I already am, but a kind of agnosticism that most would not, including myself, distinguish much from atheism.
As far as anyone telling me anything, ( good luck, Rebecca West might interject here) reading Dawkins and Hitchens was interesting, because I came to my atheism at a much younger age than what they did, and thought things in this arena at a younger age than they.
You're the captain of your own ship, Tommy. We're only as far from discovering the truth as our own deaths. It either matters or it doesnt, 50-50 chance. heh! a "This Hour has 22" sketch just said they know of a safe investment for your money: "RamaCasino" Doh! (_8(|)
Watch for the ads to come to Toronto
Fidel:
Heh, expect to be presented truth upon death? Who's truth would we see exactly... And will we somehow be guided to interpret the truth in the same manner? We'd have a brief glimpse of whats true, the 'truth' that we interpret this to be is a different thing altogether.
My major problem with athiests and a 'probably no god' campaign is they are specifically going after a generally accepted view of what God is... When presented with a God in the form of a patriachal father figure that was interpretted and 'unpacked' in Agricultural times, then I side with athiests pretty quickly. If presented with a God unpacked in modern times that is experiencing itself through our life and is inseperatable from our existance, both consciousness and material (at this level, they are one), and well beyond just humanity (The experience and interpretation of 'us' from a blade of grass or squirrel is no less of an experience), then I'm no longer with the athiest crowd.
My major problem with athiests and a 'probably no god' campaign is they are specifically going after a generally accepted view of what God is...
And how is that a "major problem" exactly? (Other than the fact that atheists aren't "going after" anything - they just don't believe in the "generally accepted view of what God is".)
Umm, it's a major problem (for me atleast) because I completely agree with the campaign using one accepted defination of God, but not when using a different defination of God. I'd take a statement provoking people to question the interpretation of God we are given over one simply saying to stop worrying about it.
ETA: I agree with the campaign overall, just nitpickin the message.
It's not the job of atheists to challenge believers in God to accept or reject each other's definitions of God. That's a dispute we don't need to get involved in.
Maybe your New Age church should take out its own ads designed to convert those who believe in the traditional patriarchal God.
So it looks like a driver is refusing to drive buses with the ad:
The advertisements, initially suggested in a guardian.co.uk article by the comedy writer Ariane Sherine, first appeared on London buses and are now being placed on 800 vehicles around the country in a campaign organised by the British Humanist Association.
First Bus has made arrangements to accommodate Heather's beliefs, attempting to ensure he does not drive any of the buses carrying the advertisement.
"When I first saw the bus last Saturday I was shocked," Heather said. "I was just about to board and there it was staring me in the face. My first reaction was horror. I'd heard about this silly campaign in London but I had no idea it was coming to Southampton. I had certainly hoped they were not coming here because I didn't want to make a stand.
"I was in a dilemma but I felt strongly I couldn't drive that bus and so I went up to my inspectors and told them there was no way I could drive it. They said they didn't have another one, so I thought I'd better go home."
First Bus had been "very good" and was doing its best to ensure he did not have to drive any of the buses, he said. However, if the atheist campaign continued beyond its scheduled run to the end of February "I will seriously consider giving up my job".
Source. I wonder how much sympathy a driver would receive if they refused to drive a bus with a Birthright ad?
So it would be an athiests job to help people reject an athiests interpretation of God then? I'll repeat in case you've missed the point again... Not all people that identify as religious have the same interpretation of God, well unless you beleive all relgious people believe the exact same thing. 'Theres probably no god' only works for a specific interpretation of God, in particular, it works for the athiest interpretation of God (and theres my issue with the campaign)... Someone that does not have the same view of God as the one the athiests are pushing them to reject won't be very affected by this now, would they?
Heh, and I like how quickly you assume anyone with an image of God must be organized into churches.
Fidel:
Heh, expect to be presented truth upon death? Who's truth would we see exactly... And will we somehow be guided to interpret the truth in the same manner? We'd have a brief glimpse of whats true, the 'truth' that we interpret this to be is a different thing altogether.
Scientists thought they knew what consciousness is at turn of the last century. I think it was Huxley who said that human thought and the mind is little more than chemical exchanges in the brain. He was one of those who agreed that the mind(sometimes referred to as the soul) is the "sum of its physical parts" sort of thing. And scientists are still searching today for part of the physical brain where "I am" comes from. And do some people reporting them really have out of body experiences? Some scientists say no while others arent so sure.
Ya, the never-ending hunt to find the observer... Tends to be the same scientists that will dismantle a watch looking for the exact part that tells the time. I'm on the not so sure side things... I think the individualism we insist upon is a false construct for starters.
I'm only saying there is no truth to discover upon death (no 'ultimate' truth)... Just your interpretation of it.
I'll repeat in case you've missed the point again... Not all people that identify as religious have the same interpretation of God, well unless you beleive all relgious people believe the exact same thing.
And I'll repeat my point in case you missed it. Atheists don't believe in God. They don't believe in some people's conceptions of God but not others. They don't believe in such a thing as God.
I suppose we will have to hear from the Hindus about how they agree with atheists as long as they are not disbelieving in the Hindu concept of God, and then from the Buddhists about how they agree with the atheists as long as they accept the Buddhist concept of God.
Everybody is an atheist about everyone else's concept of God, but not their own. Atheists are just disbelievers in one more concept of God than you are.
Strangely enough, in my experience that has usually been proven to be the case. Do you think I should automatically assume that believers in God are not organized into churches? I don't really care one way or the other.
lol, I caught that point but thanks for repeating it. It just has nothing to do with what I'm saying... You seem to have classifed me as one of the posters defending the existance of God. I'm not trying to convert athiests or the religious here (not like I have anything to convert them to), nor am I offering a different vision of God.
We'll try again... To get someone to question THEIR belief in God... You must make them question THEIR interpretation of God, not an athiests interpretation of THEIR God (notice how I didn't mention Athiests beleiving in God once there?). 'Theres probably no god' doesn't work with a good number of interpretations of God... Hence why I said my major issue with this campaign is that it only targets a specific interpretation of God... It becomes rather silly with different interpretations of God.
I'd think you should assume less personally... Like the Bhuddists concept of God assumption ya chucked up there. This might be shocking to athiests, but not all religious people define their beleifs around a God that probably does or doesn't exist.
See the point better?
Ya, the never-ending hunt to find the observer... Tends to be the same scientists that will dismantle a watch looking for the exact part that tells the time. I'm on the not so sure side things... I think the individualism we insist upon is a false construct for starters.
I'm only saying there is no truth to discover upon death (no 'ultimate' truth)... Just your interpretation of it.
You sound very unsure, if you dont mind my saying. I think you're an agnostic more than a true disbeliever. You dont know but are reluctant to say it.
No Fidel, I'm happy to be considered my unsure as it leaves me open to a wide variance of interpretation.
I am more than willing to discuss my beliefs if you wish to engage in that discussion (it's quite enjoyable to me atleast)... It's somewhere between the philosophy introduced by Nietzsche, Quantum Physics, and Bhuddism (actually, the Bhuddism part was coincidental until I started to see all the paralells between what Buddhists discussed and what physics is now discovering). Heh, from this standpoint 'Theres probably no god' translates to 'There's probably no We'.
I'm really hoping GOD will come in to have the last word on this thread, which is getting a bit long for believers and atheists on dial-up.
You seem to have classifed me as one of the posters defending the existance of God.
Gee, now where would I get that idea? Oh, yes:
Do atheists, in your view, have to have an "interpretation" of God before they can deny the existence of any God? What specific "interpretation" of God do you believe this campaign "targets"? As far as I can see, the campaign says there probably is no God. That's about the sum total of what atheists "believe" and are all agreed on.
Unless one's "interpretation" of God is such that God doesn't actually exist, it seems to me that the atheist point of view "works" with [i.e., against] all interpretations of God. Are you suggesting that there are "interpretations" of God which would make it impossible, unnecessary, or irrelevant to question the existence of God? What are they?
"To infinity and beyond!" - Buzz Lightyear
Does love really exist?
Prove it
Does love really exist?
Prove it
It's a universal force not yet understood, I believe. La preuve
I think I'll close this one for length myself, because what the heck, I can.
I would like to add though, that I am something of an improbable entity, aren't I. For that reason as well as others, I enjoy these debates.
I don't mind sharing that I have had episodes of doubt on this point myself, but that was back at the beginning. Maybe I'll tell you about it sometime.