Who Determines a Person's Gender?
The issue of gender was discussed somewhat narrowly in an interesting though sometimes contentious thread (it was narrow in the sense that it focused principally on male-to-female transgender people).
The broader question is: Who decides a person’s gender? If a MtoF trans female says she is a “woman” (without qualifying adjectives), who (if anyone) has the right to tell her she is not? If a FtoM trans male says he is a “man” (again, without qualifying adjectives), who (if anyone) has the right to tell him he is not?
If a person self-identifies as being of a particular race, I think few would argue that the person does not have an unfettered right to do that. Why would (or should) that be different for gender?
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
Based on what happened in that last thread, I think this thread should be closed right now. The only way it should be allowed to remain open is if people who have posted transphobic comments are told directly by the moderators to stay out of the thread.
Michael, this is an important discussion...and I think it can be civil. Personally, I'm eager to listen.
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Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!
I agree that it is important, but frankly have doubt's as to whether it can be civil and respectful at this point. There are some very strongly entrenched positions out there which are not productive to a good discussion. I don't really want to close it, but I'll keep an eye on things.
My own admittedly uneducated opinion based on what I've heard from those with more knowledge and experience is that it is not as simple as some would like to have it. I understand gender to involve both what's going on in ones knickers, and what's going on in ones head. For the majority, such as myself, there's no dissonance, so I have the luxury (privilege ?) of leaving these questions unasked if I wish. However, I do not support a position where we set up a society for the comfort of the majority and call things finished at that point.
Oldgoat, it's not just a question of respect and civility. Please review those previous threads and ask yourself how a trans person would feel reading them. We don't allow homophobia on babble, and we would ask homophobic posters to either leave the board or to stay out of certain discussions. If previous discussion threads were shut down because they were fouled by hatred, then we usually don't allow new ones on the same subject to be opened up immediately thereafter. Trans people deserve the same courtesy. This board should not be a place where trans women, for example, are accused of not being real women, or where they are accused of trying to undermine "real" women's gender identities, or where their gender identity is reduced to an erotic fixation on an internalized cross-gender image of themselves, or where the staggering oppression they are exposed to is minimized or disregarded.
I take your point Michael, and maybe you're right. I was following the other thread, and didn't much like what I was reading for reasons you state. I generally don't moderate in the feminism forums when Maysie and Michelle are around to do so, and I agree with Maysie's post in closing that thread.
Yeah, I'll shut this for now and talk to Maysie about it.