Alexandre Boulerice petition about Gaza

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lagatta
Alexandre Boulerice petition about Gaza

Yes, the language in it is very mild, but at least it is something from an NDP MP. And it does call for an end of the Occupation of the West Bank and of the siege of Gaza. 

http://www.jappuie-boulerice.org/gaza_la_paix_est_la_solution_pas_la_des...

Au cours des derniers jours, les voix de la guerre ont pris le relais en Israël et en Palestine. Après des années de souffrance due à l'occupation et le blocus, la population civile de Gaza doit maintenant endurer les bombardements. Depuis le début de l'opération « Protective Edge », plus de 170 Palestiniens ont été tués et plus de 1100 blessés. La vaste majorité des victimes sont des civils. Les rapports préliminaires font état de la destruction partielle d’une mosquée et d’un hôpital.

Plus de 800 roquettes et mortiers ont été tirées depuis la bande de Gaza en direction de la population civile d'Israël. Les sirènes sont depuis devenues une routine quotidienne dans pratiquement toutes les régions d'Israël. Les gens ont besoin de se mettre à couvert dans des abris souvent plusieurs fois par jour. La plupart des roquettes ont été, jusqu'ici, intercepté en plein vol par un système de contre-mesure appelée Iron Dome ou sont tombées dans des zones inhabitées. Aucun décès n'a eu lieu à ce jour et quelques centaines de personnes ont été traitées pour des blessures, la plupart d'entre eux en état de choc. 

Le bruit assourdissant des missiles et des roquettes doit cesser. La population civile mérite calme et sécurité. Il n'y a qu'une seule solution pour atteindre cet objectif pour les Palestiniens et les Israéliens: mettre fin à l'occupation de la Cisjordanie et le siège de Gaza et de négocier de bonne foi. 

Il est temps que les voix de la paix se fassent entendre à nouveau. Le Canada devrait être parmi ces voix.

 

Issues Pages: 
Regions: 
Sean in Ottawa

Actually I think it is a good tone. Too strong may have a reduced effect.

lagatta

It is certainly a very positive move.

Unionist

It's better than nothing. I always liked Boulerice. I hope Mulcair doesn't slap him down for this.

Here is the disgusting whitewashing of Israel that Mulcair and his trusty Paul Dewar are still vomiting out:

Quote:

“New Democrats are very concerned by the escalation of tensions in Gaza and Israel. We call on the Canadian government to support a ceasefire and urge all parties to exercise restraint and avoid actions that could further destabilize the situation.

On behalf of Canada's Official Opposition, we have written to Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird and called for Canada to work in support of restraint, de-escalation and civilian protection within a framework of international humanitarian law. To date, neither his comments nor the Prime Minister's statements get us closer to these important goals.

Since the start of the most recent tensions, we have spoken with Israeli and Palestinian representatives in Ottawa. We have reiterated that Hamas' continued rocket attacks are unacceptable. We have also voiced our deep concern regarding the escalating violence and reports of civilian deaths.

We will continue to monitor the situation closely and maintain our diplomatic engagement with Israeli and Palestinian officials. The Canadian government must work diplomatically, together with our allies, to help de-escalate the situation, work towards an immediate ceasefire and support a negotiated settlement to the conflict."

If you noticed some mention of Israeli mass murder of Palestinians, please help me find it.

Has any party condemned the mass murder yet?

 

cco

You know, it seems to me this whole Iron Dome thing has kind of put a wrench into Israel's claims that it needs to keep bombing Gaza to "defend itself" against rocket attacks. Their American-funded anti-missile batteries seem to be doing just fine on the self-defense front. Israel could literally ignore Gaza completely and have a zero-percent increase in fatalities.

takeitslowly

we need more of people like him in the NDP

Stockholm

So why is Hamas firing rockets at Israel at all and provoking a retaliation? What purpose does it serve to their cause to be doing this?

cco

Leaving aside the loaded comment about "retaliation" which implies this happened in some kind of vacuum, the long-term strategic gain for Hamas in an Israeli bloodbath of Gazans is likely the possibility of provoking the collapse of the PA collaborationists and the delegitimation of the Abbas government. Closer to home, it helps them stave off the rise of even more radical groups. This is perfectly mirrored in Israeli politics, where Netanyahu is trying to strategically plan this operation to relieve just enough pressure from his Lieberman flank while not damaging Hamas so much there's no one to sign a ceasefire with and then blame for the conflict (again, leaving the door open for more radical groups to emerge).

Stockholm

So in other words Hamas and Netanyahu have a co-dependent relationship. You are essentially saying that Hamas fires rockets into Israel because it WANTS Israel to bomb them in retaliation to help fulfill some elaborate 5-dimensional chess game with the Fatah in the West Bank etc...

cco

Stockholm wrote:

So in other words Hamas and Netanyahu have a co-dependent relationship.

Bingo.

Quote:

You are essentially saying that Hamas fires rockets into Israel because it WANTS Israel to bomb them in retaliation to help fulfill some elaborate 5-dimensional chess game with the Fatah in the West Bank etc...

I can't speak for the motivations of psychopathic religious zealots (and yes, that means both Israel and Hamas) who by definition don't have anything to do with the reality-based community I'm most familiar with. But from a historical and strategic perspective, that's what Hamas has to gain from provoking a disproportionate response, just like the IRA gained more from British military internment camps than it did from the Irish civil war. Even bin Laden said that his goal was to provoke the US into a massive overextension of wars in Islamic countries that would stoke hatred among Muslims. Boy, did he ever nail that one.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I am impressed that the caucus is speaking up and I appauld them.  They are so much better than the McKay/Dewar statements.

If only I knew what faction was actually firing the rockets it would make it a better guessing game about their possible motivation. But hey why don't we turn this good news thread into a discussion about the evil intent of the victims

 

janfromthebruce

Left Turn wrote:

Libby Davies just posted the following on her fb page:

Quote:
The Canadian govt must uphold International law in the face of aggression and harm to innocent civilians. I'm really dismayed that Canada would criticize the UN for speaking out in regards to the terrible loss of life of innocent people in Gaza. We must support the rule of law and call for an end to violence, whether it be rockets or mass bombing and ongoing occupation.

Charlie Angus also posted a good statement on Gaza earlier today, but it has since been removed from his fb page. Dunno if he was forced to remove it, or if he chose to, but it's no longer there.

Just to correct that misinformation: it's still there https://www.facebook.com/charlie.angus.58 as of 7/15/2014 and was shared 32 times.

Charlie Angus July 13Our thuggish prime minister pumps his chest while people die in Gaza. He may think there are votes to be had by cheering on Netanyahu from the sidelines but leadership is about trying to find ways to lessen the conflict. Harper would rather score points from the bombing and the killing. What a disgrace to Canada's once proud tradition of peacemaking.

 

lagatta

The news from Gaza is so horrible that it is grotesque to call any aspect of it "good", but I'm very glad that Alexandre, Libby and Charlie have spoken up and spoken out!

takeitslowly

where is the link to the quote from Libby Davies?

takeitslowly

janfromthebruce wrote:

Left Turn wrote:

Libby Davies just posted the following on her fb page:

Quote:
The Canadian govt must uphold International law in the face of aggression and harm to innocent civilians. I'm really dismayed that Canada would criticize the UN for speaking out in regards to the terrible loss of life of innocent people in Gaza. We must support the rule of law and call for an end to violence, whether it be rockets or mass bombing and ongoing occupation.

Charlie Angus also posted a good statement on Gaza earlier today, but it has since been removed from his fb page. Dunno if he was forced to remove it, or if he chose to, but it's no longer there.

 

 

Just to correct that misinformation: it's still there https://www.facebook.com/charlie.angus.58 as of 7/15/2014 and was shared 32 times.

Charlie Angus July 13Our thuggish prime minister pumps his chest while people die in Gaza. He may think there are votes to be had by cheering on Netanyahu from the sidelines but leadership is about trying to find ways to lessen the conflict. Harper would rather score points from the bombing and the killing. What a disgrace to Canada's once proud tradition of peacemaking.

 

 

I cant find it. do you have to be his friends to see it?  It might as well not be there, because its too hard to find. Sorry. not good enough. I can't find the comment from libby davies either.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

janfromthebruce wrote:
Just to correct that misinformation: it's still there https://www.facebook.com/charlie.angus.58 as of 7/15/2014 and was shared 32 times.

Quote:
Charlie Angus July 13Our thuggish prime minister pumps his chest while people die in Gaza. He may think there are votes to be had by cheering on Netanyahu from the sidelines but leadership is about trying to find ways to lessen the conflict. Harper would rather score points from the bombing and the killing. What a disgrace to Canada's once proud tradition of peacemaking.

Apologies, my Friend Sid Shniad had made a post on fb to the effect that the comment was removed, and that those of us who appreciated the comment should bombard the NDP with our outrage that the comment was removed. Not being fb friends with Charlie Angus, I had no way to confirm Sid's claim; I trusted Sid enough to take his post at face value.

I stand corrected.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Libby Davies just posted the following on her fb page:

Quote:
The Canadian govt must uphold International law in the face of aggression and harm to innocent civilians. I'm really dismayed that Canada would criticize the UN for speaking out in regards to the terrible loss of life of innocent people in Gaza. We must support the rule of law and call for an end to violence, whether it be rockets or mass bombing and ongoing occupation.

[edited to remove inaccurate info about Charlie Angus's fb comment that was not subsequently removed]

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

I notice that not one LPC partisan on this board has posted in this thread to congratulate NDP caucus members for taking this stand. My take away of this is that while we "leftists" on this baord get lectured incessantly about "being partisan", for them, its entirely about partisan. Actions speak louder then words. If I am wrong in making this observation, show me.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

That the NDP can come out with language even as strong as this in the modern Drone Complex shows how much public opinion has shifted against Zionist Israel. If you read a very old book with a jaundiced eye you can see where this is going. "I trample nations under my feet, and I will destroy Israel if you have worshipped idols". This is the point where Israel goes from having the whole world on its side to having the whole world against it.

The point that Zionist Israel can catch most of the rockets out of the sky, and that they have a network of bomb shelters which not even London or Berlin had in the 1940s, does not make it 'war'. To date, 196 Palestinians have been killed, and 1 Israeli. As the IDF goes into Palestinian territory, the Israelis will incur more casulaties.

To quote:

Eidah Chareidis Rabbinical Court of Jerusalem Condemns Murder of Palestinian Boy July 7, 2014

The Eidah Chareidis, the non-Zionist independent rabbinical court of Jerusalem, published a letter today condemning the brutal murder of Mohammed Abu Khder, a 16-year-old Palestinian boy from Shuafat.

While expressing great pain over the murder of the three Jewish boys, Gilad Shaar, Eyal Yifrach and Naftali Frankel, the Eidah stated that "the demand for revenge is not consistent with the directives of our holy Torah."

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

I have to say Montrealer58, and as a Jew, while I am not a "Zionist", at least in the sense it is known, I am to say the least "uncomfortable" with your using the expression "Zionist Israel". I am against Israel, as a modern, Democratic State, and I might add the only one in that part of the world, raging this kind of war on what are really defenceless Civillians. But lets be careful, to ensure that we are condeming is this kind of violence, not the entire state of Israel, or its people, whom I might add, overall, are growing tired of this incessant Israeli military adventurism. Going after Israel, for being a "Zionist State", is not the same as being against that State's misuse and abuse of its military power against a small group of radical terrorists, who hide behind the skirts of women, and the bodies of children. Let's keep our eye on the ball, OK?

Unionist

Arthur Cramer wrote:

I notice that not one LPC partisan on this board has posted in this thread to congratulate NDP caucus members for taking this stand.

You expect partisans of the Liberal Party to praise someone for criticizing Israel? The Liberal Party loves the Israeli right-wing zealots and supports them all the time. So does Harper. So does Mulcair.

Why the f*** would any supporter of Justin Trudeau congratulate Alexandre Boulerice for having the guts to call for an end to the occupation of the West Bank and Golan and Jerusalem, and the siege of Gaza?

Boulerice is the only one so far to take a public stand in this sense, as far as I have seen. Charlie Angus very correctly used the word "thuggish" about Harper, his comments were private (although I'm happy to see that the mainstream media picked it up and quoted it in public). Hopefully Mulcair won't force him to do a public mea culpa.

Unfortunately Libby's comments - if she actually made them - have not yet gone public. She's been hurt before, and she needs to be careful.

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Unionist, the only point I was making that we see with this thread how much in a real light the idea of "non-partisan" Liberals is just a fake premise thrown out there by LPC leaning supporters, just like those who post on this board in an attempt to convince us that it is about "non-partisanship", not ideology. Where are their supportive comments? No where, because they weren't made by Liberals. They were made by crazy "leftists", and everyone knowns, crazy leftists are unfit to govern.

Unionist

Arthur - I gotcha - but Liberals are unregenerate supporters of Netanyahu. They are just as nervous about Boulerice and Charlie Angus and Libby Davies as Harper is.

By the way, here is what Justin Trudeau, ally and friend of war criminals, had to say about the current situation (sorry if it's been posted before):

Justin Trudeau wrote:

“The Liberal Party of Canada strongly condemns Hamas’ rejection of the Egyptian ceasefire proposal and its rocket attacks on civilians.

“Israel should be commended for having accepted the ceasefire proposal, and demonstrating its commitment to peace. The Liberal Party of Canada, and many in the international community including the United States, the U.N. Security Council, and the Palestinian Authority, had urged a ceasefire that could have ended the tragic civilian loss of life in Gaza and the suffering of Israelis under terrorist attack.

“Israel has the right to defend itself and its people. Hamas is a terrorist organization and must cease its rocket attacks immediately.”

Shakespeare had this scumbag nailed:

My tables—meet it is I set it down. That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

NAILED IT UNIONIST! That Trudeau is a double-talking weasel who'll smile, all the time driving the knife further in your back.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Tell me Arthur why Israell is a democracy but Turkey our NATO ally is not?

Israel is a religious state. Both it and Iran hold elections and then their governments treat their citizens differently depending on their religion.  If they are democracies it is a word with no meaning.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Here is mushy piece of fluff from Libby's website that repeats the party line.   I do so much miss the old Libby who used to stand with the oppressed.

Quote:

July 14, 2014

NDP Foreign Affairs Critic Paul Dewar (Ottawa Centre) issued the following statement today on the situation in the Middle East:

“New Democrats are very concerned by the escalation of tensions in Gaza and Israel. We call on the Canadian government to support a ceasefire and urge all parties to exercise restraint and avoid actions that could further destabilize the situation.

On behalf of Canada's Official Opposition, we have written to Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird and called for Canada to work in support of restraint, de-escalation and civilian protection within a framework of international humanitarian law. To date, neither his comments nor the Prime Minister's statements get us closer to these important goals.

Since the start of the most recent tensions, we have spoken with Israeli and Palestinian representatives in Ottawa. We have reiterated that Hamas' continued rocket attacks are unacceptable. We have also voiced our deep concern regarding the escalating violence and reports of civilian deaths.

We will continue to monitor the situation closely and maintain our diplomatic engagement with Israeli and Palestinian officials. The Canadian government must work diplomatically, together with our allies, to help de-escalate the situation, work towards an immediate ceasefire and support a negotiated settlement to the conflict."

http://www.libbydavies.ca/aggregator/sources/1

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

The point of view of anti-Zionist Jews is compelling. The Halevi Verdict is a good start. There are some good books available for free download on the Internet, including "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht, which covers the case.

I am not lumping innocent people, the land, the monuments, the religion or the history of the physical place in the vicinity of Jerusalem (and even the constitutional entity of the State of Israel according to International Law and UN Reslutions) into Zionist Israel. What is Zionist Israel is the rogue state led by Netanyahu. And there is a Zionist movement tracing back to Herzl in the 1800s which it proudly claims lineage from.

currents

I agree with Arthur Cramer that the Trudeau statement is disgusting but almost as disgusting is the official NDP Dewar/Mulcair statement. No mentioning of blockade, no mentioning of occupation. I would prefer Charlie Angus to rail against Mulcair and Dewar rather than against Harper, it might actually do something.

While Boulerice is mild but OK, if you want to know what a party with principles would say about this disaster look at Quebec Solidaire website

www.quebecsolidaire.net

trotwood73

From cbc.ca :

John Baird condemns Hamas rejection of ceasefire with Israel

The opposition accused the prime minister of taking advantage of the conflict between Gaza and Israel to "score points."

"Our thuggish prime minister pumps his chest while people die in Gaza. He may think there are votes to be had by cheering on Netanyahu from the sidelines, but leadership is about trying to find ways to lessen the conflict," Ontario NDP MP Charlie Angus wrote on his Facebook page.

The Angus remark drew harsh criticism from the parliamentary secretary to the immigration minister.

On CBC News Network's Power & Politics Monday, Costas Menegakis called Angus's comments "inflammatory" and said his words were "attacking the people of Israel."

[...]

Alghabra's original message became the subject of a Conservative Party of Canada (CPC) tweet accusing the Liberals of not standing with Israel. The tweet links to a CPC web page titled "Stand with Israel," which asks for a name, email and postal code and presents a button to push that reads "I'm in." There is also a red "Donate Now" button at the top of the page.

When asked a question by CBC News about the CPC using the conflict in party advertising, Baird claimed to know nothing of it and became quite defensive.

"In fairness, you're a member of our national broadcaster. We deserve better questions than that," Baird told the producer.

After Baird's comments, the CPC sent out an email to supporters directing them to the same website.

 

lagatta

Currents, Québec solidaire has always been principled about this issue. I raised the question of the Boulerice petition, because, mild though it is, it does represent a break.

Stockholm

montrealer58 wrote:

What is Zionist Israel is the rogue state led by Netanyahu. And there is a Zionist movement tracing back to Herzl in the 1800s which it proudly claims lineage from.

Netanyahu and the Likud party are actually descended from the Revisionist Zionist dissident movement that rejected the original Zionism of Herzl because it was too weak and liberal-minded and made too many allowances for minority rights etc... Likud's spiritual godfather is not Herzl but a horrible little man named Vladimir Jabotinsky founder of the Revisionist movement who admired Hitler for being a strong leader (if only had hadn't been anti-Jewish).

lagatta

Yes, you are correct about that, Stockholm. The kind of people Einstein and Arendt spoke out against in their 1948 letter. Unfortunately very influential in modern Israeli governing circles.

I'm very annoyed about Baird accusing critics of this assault of "attacking the people of Israel". In the long run, this situation will bode nothing well for any people in the region.

By the way, both Andrés Fontecilla and Manon Massé of QS will be attending the demonstration set for métro Mont-Royal at 5:30 this afternoon. I'm very busy working, but can probably get to that, as it is only a few minutes south of my place by bicycle. I know a route without too much traffic (the bicycle paths here are utterly congested at rush hour).

There will be another action up by Jarry Park on Saturday. Of course Saturday means no religious Jews, and as for Muslims, it is still Ramadan. Hard not drinking any water in the summer heat.

 

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

They have unfurled the PLO flag by Mount Royal subway and the guy was yelling "Zionism is not Jewish!".

Unionist

Stockholm wrote:

Netanyahu and the Likud party are actually descended from the Revisionist Zionist dissident movement that rejected the original Zionism of Herzl because it was too weak and liberal-minded and made too many allowances for minority rights etc... Likud's spiritual godfather is not Herzl but a horrible little man named Vladimir Jabotinsky founder of the Revisionist movement who admired Hitler for being a strong leader (if only had hadn't been anti-Jewish).

Correction. Jabotinsky admired Mussolini. While I despise all that he stood for, I don't think he went quite as far as admiring Hitler. I stand to be corrected.

 

Unionist

currents wrote:

While Boulerice is mild but OK, if you want to know what a party with principles would say about this disaster look at Quebec Solidaire website

www.quebecsolidaire.net

Agreed. But I also agree with what lagatta replied above. Boulerice making a slight comment about the occupation and the siege is quite unusual, in this era of Mulcair dictatorship. I'm waiting to see whether Mulcair will crush him. I'm hoping that Boulerice's trade union roots will come into play and allow him to resist. Did I mention that I'm not very optimistic?

 

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

If the Conservative Party of Canada is hooking up with "Support Israel", this is exact Tea Party behaviour. Let the CPC be now known as "Tea Party North", as it has in some circles for a while.

WTF do they need 'donations' for? They have infinite resources.

Calling the PM "Thuggish" outside the safety of Parliament took some courage!

The dance around Godwin's Law continues.

lagatta

So you were at the demo as well, Montrealer? I saw a lot of people I knew there, from all generations and ethno-cultural backgrounds. Took a pic of two charming young hijabi ladies. There were also many Hassidic Jewish men. Hey, men, let your womenfolk demonstrate! As you can see from the hijabis, they can do that "modestly", if that is important.

Place Gérald-Godin around métro Mont-Royal was utterly full of people. I actually found a place to park my bicycle, at the back. The police were unusually pleasant, as they are also in hard negotiations over pension benefits, though as we know, that can turn on a single sharp confrontation. I didn't follow the march off from the rally past St-Denis, as I had to continue working on something in my home office. But it was a good interlude, as I was feeling helpless and furious about that massacre and the Cons' enabling of it, and the timorous if any response of the opposition parties.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Tell me Arthur why Israell is a democracy but Turkey our NATO ally is not?

Israel is a religious state. Both it and Iran hold elections and then their governments treat their citizens differently depending on their religion.  If they are democracies it is a word with no meaning.

K, so shot me, I forgot about Turkey. It seems to me the Israelis and the Turks haven't fought wars against one another. My point is that it is extremely fashionable on the left to go after "Zionism". It frankly worries me; not every Jew is a Zionist, and as has been stated above so much better then by me, that the Zionism of today is not that of Herzel. I worry about the blurring the lines between what we call "anti semitism", and legitmate criticism of the Israeli State. What, as a Jew, do you want me to do about it, say nothing? I am no fan of what the Israeli State is doing, to say the least, but I am also no fan of the blurring of lines around Zionism and its use by some on the  left as a tool for challenging the continued existence of a Jewish State, so to speak. That is all I meant. Cool down a little.

Atlas

Sorry, but Justin Trudeau's comments on the Gaza situation are APPALLING and FAR worse than the NDP statement:

Trudeau said:

The Liberal Party of Canada strongly condemns Hamas’ rejection of the Egyptian ceasefire proposal and its rocket attacks on civilians.

Israel should be commended for having accepted the ceasefire proposal, and demonstrating its commitment to peace. The Liberal Party of Canada, and many in the international community including the United States, the U.N. Security Council, and the Palestinian Authority, had urged a ceasefire that could have ended the tragic civilian loss of life in Gaza and the suffering of Israelis under terrorist attack.

Israel has the right to defend itself and its people. Hamas is a terrorist organization and must cease its rocket attacks immediately.”

 

NO mention of Israel's unfair ceasefire demands or refusal to deal with the siege (the underlying cause of the real suffering in Gaza). NO condemnation of Israeli bombing of civilians.  Israel - who has done nothing but frustrate the peace process and continuously built settlements in the Occupied Territories, steadily annexing the West Bank so that no Palestinian state will even be possible...is praised for "demonstrating its commitment to peace"?!"   Commending" Israel and asserting Israel's "right" to "defend itself" while calling Hamas "terrorist"....is straight out of Conservative talking points.

For all the Liberals out there who are constantly criticizing the NDP for its less than satisfactory articulation on the Palestine/Israel issue - WHERE ARE YOU NOW?

Unionist

Atlas wrote:

For all the Liberals out there who are constantly criticizing the NDP for its less than satisfactory articulation on the Palestine/Israel issue -

Name one. Take your time. No, really, no rush.

Mr.Tea

lagatta wrote:

 There were also many Hassidic Jewish men. Hey, men, let your womenfolk demonstrate! As you can see from the hijabis, they can do that "modestly", if that is important.

I'm guessing the Hasidic men you saw there were members of a group called Neturei Karta, who are about as extreme as they come. They're basically the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Arthur Cramer wrote:

K, so shot me, I forgot about Turkey. It seems to me the Israelis and the Turks haven't fought wars against one another. My point is that it is extremely fashionable on the left to go after "Zionism". It frankly worries me; not every Jew is a Zionist, and as has been stated above so much better then by me, that the Zionism of today is not that of Herzel. I worry about the blurring the lines between what we call "anti semitism", and legitmate criticism of the Israeli State. What, as a Jew, do you want me to do about it, say nothing? I am no fan of what the Israeli State is doing, to say the least, but I am also no fan of the blurring of lines around Zionism and its use by some on the  left as a tool for challenging the continued existence of a Jewish State, so to speak. That is all I meant. Cool down a little.

My point is that the term "the only democracy in the area" is not only inaccurrate it is at the core of that apartheid state's propoganda image.  South Africa and Rhodesia called themselves democracies and until the tide turned against them that was how they were referred to in the MSM at the time.  I know from your posts how much you despise the actions beng done, supposedly in your name.  My post was an attempt at a gentle reminder not to use the language of the other side.

lagatta

What term should be used to describe countries where there is a working parliament and signficant democratic rights for the "in" group? In the case of South Africa and Rhodesia, that was definitely a minority - Israel/Palestine was probably less clear until recently, with non-Jews (Palestinians and immigrant groups) pulling ahead.

In Canada, a majority (at least of men, until universal female suffrage) had voting rights at one point (initially only property-owners, I believe) but Indigenous people, a significant minority in some places, had none.

In the US, a very large number of people of African origin were effectively denied voting rights until the 1960s, and some echo of this remains to this day.

Such countries can't be called "democracies" without qualification, but they aren't exactly the same thing as totalitarian dictatorships either.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

Calling the Jews who attended the anti-Israei demonstrations Naturei Karta is akin to calling every Muslim who went there Al Qaeda. They might just be people who are outraged at Netanyahu. Attending a demonstration does not make you a terrorist.

Mr.Tea

montrealer58 wrote:

Calling the Jews who attended the anti-Israei demonstrations Naturei Karta is akin to calling every Muslim who went there Al Qaeda. They might just be people who are outraged at Netanyahu. Attending a demonstration does not make you a terrorist.

I didn't call "the Jews" who attended anything. A poster mentioned "Hasidic men" being there and I'm guess that THEY were Naturei Karta.

josh

Mr.Tea wrote:

lagatta wrote:

 There were also many Hassidic Jewish men. Hey, men, let your womenfolk demonstrate! As you can see from the hijabis, they can do that "modestly", if that is important.

I'm guessing the Hasidic men you saw there were members of a group called Neturei Karta, who are about as extreme as they come. They're basically the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban.

Yeah, because they object to the existence of the state of Israel on religious grounds that makes them the Taliban.  Nice.

How many deaths are they responsible for and how many has Zionism?

Mr.Tea

josh wrote:

Mr.Tea wrote:

lagatta wrote:

 There were also many Hassidic Jewish men. Hey, men, let your womenfolk demonstrate! As you can see from the hijabis, they can do that "modestly", if that is important.

I'm guessing the Hasidic men you saw there were members of a group called Neturei Karta, who are about as extreme as they come. They're basically the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban.

Yeah, because they object to the existence of the state of Israel on religious grounds that makes them the Taliban.  Nice.

How many deaths are they responsible for and how many has Zionism?

Oh, for fuck's sake. Their position on zionism has nothing to do with what makes them like the Taliban. Their use of violence and intimidation to try to impose their extreme theocratic vision on society, the burning down of bookstores, even the destruction of an ice cream store on the grounds that girls licking ice cream cones in public promotes promiscuity, their denial of decent education to girls and many other things is what makes them the Jewish equivalent of the Taliban. Their attribution of the Holocaust being G-d's punishment for zionism, while later attending a Holocaust-denial conference in Iran is what makes them idiots.

lagatta

Yes, there were many Jews there who were not Hassidic. I assume that Mr Tea was referring to that Hassidic sect as "Taliban" because he thinks they are ultras, not that they are terrorists. Personally, I don't know enough about that subject to make a judgement. 

josh

Canadians were evenly split in their support for Israel and the Palestinians, according to a new poll. The survey by the Toronto-based Forum Research found that 17 percent of respondents sided with Israel in the Middle East conflict, while 16 percent favored the Palestinians. Fully 64 percent said they lean toward neither side, and 3 percent said they did not know.

 

http://www.jta.org/2014/06/17/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/poll-finds...

Yet the political parties are unanimous.

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

You might want to read about the Halevi Verdict. There are religious extremist Christians, religious extremist Muslims, and religious extremist Jews. There are even atheist extremists who want to kill all religions. That issue is what it is, and so is the issue of the Netanyahu government slaughtering defenceless people. Their religious extremism has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

K, so shot me, I forgot about Turkey. It seems to me the Israelis and the Turks haven't fought wars against one another. My point is that it is extremely fashionable on the left to go after "Zionism". It frankly worries me; not every Jew is a Zionist, and as has been stated above so much better then by me, that the Zionism of today is not that of Herzel. I worry about the blurring the lines between what we call "anti semitism", and legitmate criticism of the Israeli State. What, as a Jew, do you want me to do about it, say nothing? I am no fan of what the Israeli State is doing, to say the least, but I am also no fan of the blurring of lines around Zionism and its use by some on the  left as a tool for challenging the continued existence of a Jewish State, so to speak. That is all I meant. Cool down a little.

My point is that the term "the only democracy in the area" is not only inaccurrate it is at the core of that apartheid state's propoganda image.  South Africa and Rhodesia called themselves democracies and until the tide turned against them that was how they were referred to in the MSM at the time.  I know from your posts how much you despise the actions beng done, supposedly in your name.  My post was an attempt at a gentle reminder not to use the language of the other side.

OK, fair enough. Thanks for the reminder; much appreciated. Language is  powerful and its easy to fall into old memes for sure. Again, thanks.

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