All the bright and shiny people, or the new Order of Canada appointees

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quizzical
All the bright and shiny people, or the new Order of Canada appointees

out of 20 new officers and companions only 3 are from west of ON.

amazing it is how the east has all the shiny people.

quizzical
Unionist

Whom would you nominate from the west?

Pondering

It's an incomplete list so I don't think we can pass judgement on it but it isn't a fair question. It's not up to us to find the appointees. I'm sure there are plenty of qualified people from the west in relation to their population.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Is this just more Westophobia??

quizzical

3 as "numbers" aren't even close to being a respresentative portion of the west's population.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Unionist wrote:

Whom would you nominate from the west?

Quote:

Catherine Callbeck, Central Bedeque, P.E.I.: for her contributions to the citizens of Prince Edward Island as a former politician and senator, and as a business and community leader.

Robert Campbell, Sackville, N.B.: for his contributions to academia as an authority on postal services and as president of Mount Allison University.

Joseph Boyden, New Orleans, La., and Ahmic Harbour, Ont.: for his contributions as an author, who tells stories of our common heritage, and for his social engagement, notably in support of First Nations.

You are absolutely right Unionist there is no one West of Ontario more deserving than these stellar examples of excellence in our Federation. Its always nice to see oneself reflected in the national mosaic.

quizzical

i know hey. ffs

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Whom would you nominate from the west?

Quote:

Catherine Callbeck, Central Bedeque, P.E.I.: for her contributions to the citizens of Prince Edward Island as a former politician and senator, and as a business and community leader.

Robert Campbell, Sackville, N.B.: for his contributions to academia as an authority on postal services and as president of Mount Allison University.

Joseph Boyden, New Orleans, La., and Ahmic Harbour, Ont.: for his contributions as an author, who tells stories of our common heritage, and for his social engagement, notably in support of First Nations.

You are absolutely right Unionist there is no one West of Ontario more deserving than these stellar examples of excellence in our Federation. Its always nice to see oneself reflected in the national mosaic.

You don't like Joseph Boyden??

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

It has nothing to do with not liking Joseph Boyden, more to do with Sharon Butala not being upgraded to Companion of the Order.

quizzical

ha....not so much. epic fail.

Quote:
David Johnston flagged two areas of particular concern for the Order of Canada: gender and regional representation.

and if there's any doubt it's Justin and Liberal payoff time.....

Quote:
.....photojournalist Ted Grant got the nod more than 48 years after snapping his iconic photo of prime minister Pierre Trudeau sliding down a banister.

Among the 11 appointments given to businesspeople and philanthropists is Jack Cockwell, the low-profile CEO who built Brascan (now known as Brookfield Asset Management) into one of the world’s largest conglomerates. He was cited by the Order for his “civic engagement in the areas of education, conservation and history.”...........

According to a recent Ottawa Citizen analysis, only 26 per cent of total Order of Canada honourees came from the four western provinces, while a disproportionate 11 per cent went to the lightly populated Atlantic provinces.

This year, 68 per cent of honourees came from Quebec or Ontario, only slightly higher than those provinces’ 62 per cent share of the total Canadian population.

 

swallow swallow's picture

[url=https://www.gg.ca/document.aspx?id=16283&lan=eng]Full list of 69 recipients[/url]

 

Debater

quizzical, Justin Trudeau only just got elected PM.

I doubt that he had control over this whole list.

The choices are nominated by a number of organizations and interest groups, and are not solely determined by the PM, anyway.

Plus, this Liberal government elected a lot of MP's in Western Canada, so I'm sure it will want to see the West represented in the future.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Here is an "Ottawa" recipient that I think is deserving.  I met here on various occasions in the early 1990's when she was the Sask. Fed leader.

http://canadianlabour.ca/news/news-archive/order-canada-recognizes-barba...

quizzical

Debater wrote:
quizzical, Justin Trudeau only just got elected PM.

I doubt that he had control over this whole list.

The choices are nominated by a number of organizations and interest groups, and are not solely determined by the PM, anyway.

Plus, this Liberal government elected a lot of MP's in Western Canada, so I'm sure it will want to see the West represented in the future.

lololol you just tried to say Justin had little control and in the next breath say 'next time'. lololol

 

Debater

Where did I use the words 'next time'?

And stop looking for things that aren't there.

Stop looking to try & trip people up.

quizzical

"represented in the future" = next time

Unionist

East versus West? What a stupid concept and thread. Just thought I'd say how I really felt about this childish waste of time. Canada is divided along many important lines, but east and west really don't cut it.

 

Debater

Most of these appointees were already chosen long before the Liberals came to power.

I'm baffled as to why quizzical thinks this is some sort of Liberal plot to keep the West out.

quizzical

maybe in your world unionist, not in mine. and don't get me started on your childishness, and on said note thanks for the diminishment to the status of  child. i always enjoy it.

because the east has been surviving on the west for long time now - while thinking wrongly they're all bright and shiny, ya tend to get a little pissed when the federal government re-affirms such a BS POV to pander to their suckers, errr sponsors.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Debater wrote:

Stop looking to try & trip people up.

Debater, are YOU, SERIOUSLY, telling OTHERS. to STOP doing that? Really? No, SERIOUSLY....REALLY!

TALK ABOUT THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK! Laughing

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Unionist wrote:

East versus West? What a stupid concept and thread. Just thought I'd say how I really felt about this childish waste of time. Canada is divided along many important lines, but east and west really don't cut it.

There is only Canada and ROC.  We get it Unionist. You get to demand we respect your culture history and you get to claim our history and culture is a childish waste of time because Canada is Ontario or Ontario like. Your arrogance is showing.

Unionist

Kropotkin, do you seriously get that there is no such thing as "east" vs. "west", except in the crooked vision of ultra-right western separatists and Reform types? PEI is exploiting Alberta? Québec is living high off the hog while Saskatchewan bleeds? I know you believe none of this. So please don't associate yourself with some of the diversionary and anti-progressive comments made in this thread - indeed, in the very nasty thesis of the thread itself. Otherwise, I'll be forced to point out that the East has finally liberated Canada from the dictatorship of the West (Harper) after a decade of oppression! Or some other similar kindergarten nonsense.

 

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

Canada is divided along many important lines, but east and west really don't cut it.

I don't really want to wade too far into this but that is a surprising statement in a couple of ways. First, I'm wondering what you base that on, since  I presume you have a basic knowledge of how and why Canada took over the west.

And secondly I'm just wondering what the reaction might be if I were to make a statement like that about your part of the country. Of course I wouldn't since I recognize the lines of division between Quebec and Canada.

(edit)

And Harper? You know if you don't want to others to feed into east west tensions, perhaps it might not be a good idea to inflame them. Otherwise is might be worthwhile to point out how much of that Ontario-born boy's cabinet came from Ontario.

 

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Canada is divided along many important lines, but east and west really don't cut it.

I don't really want to wade too far into this but that is a surprising statement in a couple of ways. First, I'm wondering what you base that on, since  I presume you have a basic knowledge of how and why Canada took over the west.

Sorry, I saw that as Anglo-Canadian colonialism robbing the birthright of Indigenous peoples (including the Metis). That's an important line of division - to this day. "Canada" vs. the "West" is an ahistorical concoction.

Quote:
And secondly I'm just wondering what the reaction might be if I were to make a statement like that about your part of the country. Of course I wouldn't since I recognize the lines of division between Quebec and Canada.

"My part of the country"? Québec is a nation. The Indigenous peoples are nations. Saskatchewan isn't. Ontario isn't. I know you recognize that. Those who oversimplify and concoct "east" vs. "west" are precisely the ones who want to keep Québec and Indigenous peoples from ever having their sovereign right to determine their own futures recognized. Thankfully, such reactionary and divisive notions are becoming rarer than dinosaurs.

Quote:

And Harper? You know if you don't want to others to feed into east west tensions, perhaps it might not be a good idea to inflame them. Otherwise is might be worthwhile to point out how much of that Ontario-born boy's cabinet came from Ontario.

Thank you for proving my point. I don't care whether Harper and his fellow wannabe fascists came from Ontario, Red Deer, or Campbellton. They teamed together on ideological, settler, political, and economic lines to wage war against the people of Canada - people from both sides of whatever phoney "east" vs. "west" latitude one chooses.

The struggle in Canada isn't about geography. Nor is it about which province Order of Canada recipients come from. Seeing such diversionary bullshit in this place of otherwise intelligent conversation is a bit troubling. I try to take it with humour, but it's clear that some people actually are infected with this world outlook. It really needs to be cleansed.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I believe that we have various regions in Canada and that as a Federation we should strive for regional balance especially when honouring citizens. This list is disgusting because it does not even come close to any balance and frankly I don't like the message that says of the 14 people getting the Officer Awards 6 of them are from Quebec and one is from BC. You seem to be willfully blind to the Central Canadian power structure that this represents. Even with the third largest population in the country BC gets lumped in with the prairies as the West. Personally I think that BC is its own region.

So do I believe in dualities no. Not east/west or French/English or Quebec/ROC but I do believe that the Order of Canada should not be dominated by Central Canadian narcissism. In BC we are already under represented in the democratic institutions of our nation so I guess from your lofty perch you figure we should just not complain about being treated with distain in the symbolic ones as well.

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:
You seem to be willfully blind to the Central Canadian power structure that this represents.

"Central Canadian"? You mean, ON and QC? You could do a decent comedy show in Montréal with lines like that.

Quote:
Even with the third largest population in the country BC gets lumped in with the prairies as the West. Personally I think that BC is its own region.

I don't believe the "west" exists. Have that debate with the "east vs. west" proponents in this thread.

Quote:
So do I believe in dualities no. Not east/west or French/English or Quebec/ROC but I do believe that the Order of Canada should not be dominated by Central Canadian narcissism. In BC we are already under represented in the democratic institutions of our nation so I guess from your lofty perch you figure we should just not complain about being treated with distain in the symbolic ones as well.

I will happily advocate for all Order of Canada nominations to come exclusively from the "West". But if you want my real opinion? Manitoba and Saskatchewan fought against colonial domination and robbery and exploitation by the phoney federation that was cooked up by British colonialists in 1867 (who, if you recall, had crushed rebellions in Ontario and Québec). I don't recall any such resistance from Alberta or BC. Perhaps you could refer me to some of the history that I may have missed.

We should look for unity and common struggle. Not this horseshit about "regional balance". Have you analyzed the Order of Canada appointees based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, economic class, settler vs. Indigenous...? No? Then you forfeit any say about how BC is hard done by.

 

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

"My part of the country"? Québec is a nation. The Indigenous peoples are nations. Saskatchewan isn't. Ontario isn't. I know you recognize that. Those who oversimplify and concoct "east" vs. "west" are precisely the ones who want to keep Québec and Indigenous peoples from ever having their sovereign right to determine their own futures recognized. Thankfully, such reactionary and divisive notions are becoming rarer than dinosaurs.

This territory Unionist, was a collection of nations before it was bought and sold, and had the agreement torn up as soon as the Canadian army was let in. And if you think the eastern colonialism was limited to Metis and FN people you might want to read a bit more.

Easier to call people here reactionaries. Of course I thought the western fascists took control when we rammed universal health care down your throats.

 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Unionist read some history and get back to me when you have learnt something about the history of other regions outside of Central Canada. Your simplistic view of the history of Canada is laughable and frankly quite ignorant of context and subtlety.

That phoney federation that was cooked up in 1867 was dominated by the elites from Upper and Lower Canada and is still dominated by Central Canada. That's right your province was one of the two dominate oppresors in the Federation. I know you'll whine that it was your English political leaders not the people that were responsible for the Montreal railroad companies and banks that screwed the rest of Canada but that goes for every province in the federation. The rich screwed us all from Coast to Coast to Coast.

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Well, the resistance in Saskatchewan was not the whole province, and in fact most of the First Nations - wisely or not - pledged loyalty to the crown. The real chance for an organized resistance ended in 1870, in Manitoba.

People - particularly farmers -  organizing against big business and the federal govenrment? That happened throughout the prairies.

As for people in Alberta doing nothing, just one example:

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/united-farmers-of-alberta/

Oh, just ran across this article :

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-conservative-politics-repu...

First mosque in Canada too - in Edmonton.

 

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:

That phoney federation that was cooked up in 1867 was dominated by the elites from Upper and Lower Canada and is still dominated by Central Canada.

What utter crap. The "elites" from Upper and Lower Canada were the same people. Go look up 1763 and 1837. Try to determine who won and who lost. Hint: These wars were not fought in the "West" at all.

Quote:
That's right your province was one of the two dominate oppresors in the Federation.

"My" province? I'm from Manitoba.

Quote:
I know you'll whine that it was your English political leaders not the people that were responsible for the Montreal railroad companies and banks that screwed the rest of Canada but that goes for every province in the federation. The rich screwed us all from Coast to Coast to Coast.

Finally, the truth comes out. And we have a basis for understanding reality and for uniting in common struggle. Thanks for that. I'll even accept your description of the truth as "whining" if it can help put an end to the toxic mentality that animated this stupid thread.

Oh, and as for the glorious nation of British Columbia? Get back to me once you've applied for a constitutional amendment to get the  "British" out of the name. It's not like fighting and dying for freedom, as people did in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, but it's probably a good start.

Because it's 2015.

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Well, the resistance in Saskatchewan was not the whole province,

Bingo! No resistance, anywhere, ever, was "the whole province" or "the whole east" or "the whole west".

Canada is not divided into "regions" - not when it comes to the struggle for social progress. As I've been saying for several posts now. The big lie of "east" vs. "west" must be unmasked and smashed.

 

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

I think we upset one of the Central Canadian Overlords. Naughty us. When are we ever going to learn to be satisfied with our role in confederation... as providers of raw materials.

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

The big lie of "east" vs. "west" must be unmasked and smashed.

If you don't realize that western Canada's experience of colonialism - Ottawa's policy of driving the railway through and flooding the territory with settlers - is unique and a real point of division, that is unfortunate.

It exists whether you recognize it or not. And no, it doesn't take away from the alienation and grievances in other parts of Canada, though it seems some on all sides make that mistake.

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Upset the revolutionary common front, more like. Didn't you know there is only one legitimate struggle? If we aren't solely focused on that we are just falling for the oppressor's divisive lies about identity, culture, region and nationalism.

Hulk smash.

(edit)

By the by, we had a guest over for breakfast who noticed one of the kids' history books about the furtrade, and mentioned that in a biography (of Atakakoop) one of the clear things was that as colonial and bad as things were in the days of Rupertsland (and they were), at least there was some measure of respect because it was a business relationship, and they had no means of political control. Once Canada took over we were basically a spot on the Risk board to block the Americans, run a railway through to lure BC into confederation, provide raw materials, and fill with people to buy products from their factories.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

bagkitty wrote:

I think we upset one of the Central Canadian Overlords. Naughty us. When are we ever going to learn to be satisfied with our role in confederation... as providers of raw materials.

Strange how people who live in some parts of Canada think they have the right to define people from other regions and determine that their sense of history and place are irrelevant.

That there is no difference in the history of the working class in Canada is merely the delusion of people who only see themselves in the mirror. Here is a song that has been one of the rallying calls for BC trade unionists for a century. It is set in the context of my Island and then as now the attachment of the locals is too the Island before BC and/or Canada.  Unless of course you do polling on the Airforce base in Comox where you will find personell who identify with Canada but not with the Island culture.

Unionist you want to insist that the place you live in is its own nation and that is accepted by me and most progressive people in Canada. The part that galls is that you want to tell me how to view my culture's place in Canada beginning with the assertion that it is not unique and regionally based. Ontario labor history has its own stories but they are not about the bosses bringing in Asian labor to break unions. The fight to overcome anti-Asian racism is also a major part of my BC history but of course it did not shape the culture here only events that happened in Ontario form the national character.

Central Canadian Overlord is an apt title.

Quote:

"In the song a man - no longer a coal miner on the island - hails another whom he remembers from one of the colliery communities in the Cumberland area. He recalls the incident which precipitated the two-year dispute, the firing and blacklisting of the miners' representative on a Gas Committee at one of the Dominion Collieries' mines. He then tells of the men's reaction in Cumberland in September, 1912, where the blacklisted miner had sought work only to be turned away by the management. They took a joint "holiday" to protest this discrimination and to discuss what further they should do. The next day the management ordered them to take their tools from the mine unless they would sign individual two-year contracts. The song then refers to the "foul" that nearly knocked them out. The "foul" was collusion in strike-breaking activities between the provincial government of McBride and Bowser and the owners of Canadian Collieries (Dunsmuir) Ltd. The strike-breaking included: employment in Cumberland of imported miners and Chinese labourers whom the employers were able to intimidate; turning a mine and its townsite into an armed camp with special police and eventually with militia; condoning of armed strike-breakers at Extension, near Nanaimo, when there was no evidence to suggest that the strikers were armed or intending to arm themselves; arrest by duplicity of men gathered in Nanaimo in peaceful assembly; and finally maintaining military rule over the entire mining area to ensure that no union organization could possibly succeed." From Philip Thomas, Songs of the Pacific Northwest

http://pnwfolklore.org/AreYouFromBevan.html

Well, hello, stranger, how do you do?
There's something I'd like to say to you.
You seem surprised I recognize;
I'm no company stool but I just surmise
You're from the place I'm longing to be.
Your smiling face seems to say to me
You're from the island, your land and my land,
So tell me can it be-

Chorus
Are you from Bevan? I said from Bevan
Where those fields of stumps they beckon to me.
I'm glad to see you!
Tell me how be you,
And those friends I'm longing to see?
If you're from Union Bay or Courtenay or Cumberland
Any place below that Bevan second dam-
Are you from Bevan? I said from Bevan,
'Cause I'm from Bevan too!

Now it was way back in 19 and 12
Our gas committee was put on the shelf.
First we walked out, then we were locked out-
Then by a foul we were all but knocked out.
Our union miners faced guns and jail,
Hundreds of us were held without bail,
But by August 1914 our labor they were courting,
But they blacklisted me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQxUuxTl3cw

All progresive people across Canada of course know about the Chilcotin War and understand its central role in a First Nation finally having aboriginal title to land recognized by the SCC.

Quote:

In 1864, Chief Alexis and a slave of Klatassine met with Cox and were given assurances of friendship by Cox. The next day Klattassine, Tallot and six others arrived. They were arrested. Although denied by Cox, they claimed to have been offered immunity. The prisoners were returned to Alexandria. Five of the Tsilhqot'in men (Telloot, Klatsassin, Tah-pitt, Piele, and Chessus) were arrested and charged with murder. They were tried in September 1864 at Quesnel by Judge Begbie. In defence of their actions, Klatsassin said they were waging war, not committing murder. The five were found guilty and sentenced to hang.[3]:207

The incident cost the colony about $80,000. A petition to the Imperial parliament to share this cost was declined. Donald McLean's widow was given a pension of ₤100 per year for five years. Waddington sought compensation of $50,000 from the colony saying that his party had been given no protection. The colony declined saying none was requested and that no state could guarantee its citizens safe from murder.[2]:194

Waddington was of the view that fears of the introduction of smallpox was the cause of the unrest. Frederick Whymper, an artist attached to Waddington's crew, attributed the unrest to the provision of firearms to the Chilcotin at a time when they were suffering from lack of food. Judge Begbie concluded that the most important cause of the unrest was concern over title to land rather than "plunder or revenge".[3]:206 Others say that the native packers in Brewster's crew were starving while the white members of the crew were well supplied. There were also grievances about desecration of graves and interference with valuable spring waters.[2]:195

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilcotin_War

 

 

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Unionist you want to insist that the place you live in is its own nation and that is accepted by me and most progressive people in Canada.

That's very gracious of you. I'm from Manitoba. Manitoba is not a "nation". Neither is British Columbia. There is no conflict between Ontario and Saskatchewan. There is no conflict between PEI and Alberta. There is no conflict between "east" and "west".

No conflict means... between the people. Between the bloodsucking ruling classes and wealthy? Yes, every imaginable conflict.

Agreed? Yes, or no?

If it pleases you to believe that I am ignorant of British Columbia and its great history of progressive struggles of all kinds, be my guest.

I'm talking to you, and not to those upthread who feel infantile thrills by characterizing me (a child of Holocaust survivors, and a worker from the Prairies who settled in Québec) as a "Central Canadian overlord". Lacking in much to motivate their lives, they delight rather in self-victimization and provocation and baiting. I can only hope that it brings them fulfillment in their loneliness.

I'm talking to you, kropotkin, because no matter how much you try to convince me otherwise, I do not detect a trace of national or regional chauvinism in your views.

6079_Smith_W

And certainly no conflict between those of us who hang out at this model of progressive solidarity. Of course we all know the difference between the real struggle and and that which doesn't cut it, and is just the lonely and unfulfilled resorting to provocation and baiting.

I'm about ready to burst into a chorus of Kumbaya.

 

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Unionist you want to insist that the place you live in is its own nation and that is accepted by me and most progressive people in Canada.

That's very gracious of you. I'm from Manitoba. Manitoba is not a "nation". Neither is British Columbia. There is no conflict between Ontario and Saskatchewan. There is no conflict between PEI and Alberta. There is no conflict between "east" and "west".

No conflict means... between the people. Between the bloodsucking ruling classes and wealthy? Yes, every imaginable conflict.

Agreed? Yes, or no?

If it pleases you to believe that I am ignorant of British Columbia and its great history of progressive struggles of all kinds, be my guest.

I'm talking to you, and not to those upthread who feel infantile thrills by characterizing me (a child of Holocaust survivors, and a worker from the Prairies who settled in Québec) as a "Central Canadian overlord". Lacking in much to motivate their lives, they delight rather in self-victimization and provocation and baiting. I can only hope that it brings them fulfillment in their loneliness.

I'm talking to you, kropotkin, because no matter how much you try to convince me otherwise, I do not detect a trace of national or regional chauvinism in your views.

So which side are you on when it comes to the NDP voting for the Ways and Means bill to proceed with the Liberal tax cut to the  wealthy?

I agree that there is a real conflict and the party I used to support just sold out to vote for the other side in the mose symbolic of ways: a bill that transfers wealth from all tax-payers to the wealthy. We know that the Liberals only are taxing those earning above $200,000 (the top half of the 1%) will not pay for the cut that goes mostly to the top 90-99%. This means that all other taxpayers as well as those relying on government services are paying for this.

Mulcair is dogshit to me. He completed his sellout to the Liberal party. I will not support the NDP anymore on anything.
If they decide that they are interested in social justice again -- let me know.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Did you get a little lost in the threads Sean?

 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Unionist wrote:

I'm talking to you, kropotkin, because no matter how much you try to convince me otherwise, I do not detect a trace of national or regional chauvinism in your views.

I would never try to convince you of that, I assume you already know that the Salish Sea is the best place to live with the most interesting and varied culture and history in this Federation. So yes I admit to a regional bias that could be portrayed as coastal chauvinism. However if you want to detect national and regional chauvinism look in the mirror.

Quote:

to those upthread who feel infantile thrills by characterizing me ... as a "Central Canadian overlord".

Waves at bagkitty. Innocent 

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Did you get a little lost in the threads Sean?

 

 

Clearly I was asking a question on point to a reply already in the thread.

There is considerable latitude in threads to respond to what someone says and that is what I did.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

*makes an infantile effort to wave back at K... kind of flailing my paws*

Canada... from Windsor to Quebec City, with a little outpost in Halifax.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Even in the broader list, neither Yukon nor Nunavut scored a single win.  Like Canada doesn't even exist north of 60 degrees.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Did you get a little lost in the threads Sean?

Clearly I was asking a question on point to a reply already in the thread.

There is considerable latitude in threads to respond to what someone says and that is what I did.

So what number was that post you were replying to? I don't remember that context and thought you were in the wrong thread, as happens to us all from time to time.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Did you get a little lost in the threads Sean?

Clearly I was asking a question on point to a reply already in the thread.

There is considerable latitude in threads to respond to what someone says and that is what I did.

So what number was that post you were replying to? I don't remember that context and thought you were in the wrong thread, as happens to us all from time to time.

That's easy, it is the one I quoted. From Unionist to you -- post 36 and the reference is paragraph 2.

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Unionist wrote:
<snip> There is no conflict between Ontario and Saskatchewan. There is no conflict between PEI and Alberta. There is no conflict between "east" and "west".

No conflict means... between the people. Between the bloodsucking ruling classes and wealthy? Yes, every imaginable conflict.

<snip>

So which side are you on when it comes to the NDP voting for the Ways and Means bill to proceed with the Liberal tax cut to the  wealthy?

I'm diametrically opposed to the Liberal tax cut and to the NDP's support for it. I was also diametrically opposed to the NDP's promise not to raise any personal income taxes - which in my humble opinion was as bad or worse than their sycophantic pledge to balance budgets.

There are conflicts among the rich and powerful, and of course between them and the vast majority of the people. Those are the conflicts that matter. Sadly, the vast majority seem to have no consistent political voice. We'll have to construct one, and I don't think that will come by just finding a more trustworthy leader, or declaring into existence some new electoral formation. What I mean is that we shouldn't rule out those steps, but without building real unity and strength in the non-electoral realm of struggle, electoral power will inevitably be either unattainable, or illusory.

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Unionist wrote:
<snip> There is no conflict between Ontario and Saskatchewan. There is no conflict between PEI and Alberta. There is no conflict between "east" and "west".

No conflict means... between the people. Between the bloodsucking ruling classes and wealthy? Yes, every imaginable conflict.

<snip>

So which side are you on when it comes to the NDP voting for the Ways and Means bill to proceed with the Liberal tax cut to the  wealthy?

I'm diametrically opposed to the Liberal tax cut and to the NDP's support for it. I was also diametrically opposed to the NDP's promise not to raise any personal income taxes - which in my humble opinion was as bad or worse than their sycophantic pledge to balance budgets.

There are conflicts among the rich and powerful, and of course between them and the vast majority of the people. Those are the conflicts that matter. Sadly, the vast majority seem to have no consistent political voice. We'll have to construct one, and I don't think that will come by just finding a more trustworthy leader, or declaring into existence some new electoral formation. What I mean is that we shouldn't rule out those steps, but without building real unity and strength in the non-electoral realm of struggle, electoral power will inevitably be either unattainable, or illusory.

I agree with almost everything you say, except the unity part. It is impossible to be unified with people that cannot even recognize the struggle. In fact this is a struggle of profound disagreement. It is a time to test who really stands for progress and social justice and who does not..

I agree that a new political party is not the only thing that can be done and I am doing what I can. I am open to things outside and inside the political system. I am now feeling that I do not want to agree to the unacceptable any longer. The desire for unity at any price may in fact be the disease that has destroyed the NDP as a useful force for change. The desire to have a winning united coalition should never, ever trump principles and the objective of creating a fairer, more just and more equitable society.

We need to build coalitions where possible among like-minded people but we must not sacrifice that which is the mot important for a show of unity when the foundation of that unity is anything other than the most important things we stand for.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

So the man from Ottawa demands his right to take a thread about the Order of Canada into a discussion of Liberal tax breaks.  What a fucking joke.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So the man from Ottawa demands his right to take a thread about the Order of Canada into a discussion of Liberal tax breaks.  What a fucking joke.

What is your point about where I live?

You seem to feel you have the right to say whatever you please in answer to anybody in any thread. I demand the same right you assert -- no matter where you are from or who you think you are.

The tax break discussion was directly related to a statement that the real issue here is not east west but about inequality over money.

Your post is arrogant and pointless.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The tax break discussion was directly related to a statement that the real issue here is not east west but about inequality over money.

That is just a ridiculous statement. We obviously have a communications problem. I think you derailed a thread about the place of the West in our federation by bringing up Mulcair and tax breaks. Your post reads like just another Central Canadian overlord telling us what is important.

So what the fuck to you think about the thread topic. Do you think the Order of Canada should be for highlighting people from all regions or the country or should it be mostly for the Toronto, Ottawa Montreal movers and shakers?

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