All the bright and shiny people, or the new Order of Canada appointees

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6079_Smith_W

Hey, you've been working on your grumpy cat act over the holidays, SJ. I can tell.

And @ Sean #91

Yeah, exactly. It has been five years since they figured out there was a disparity, so setting a quota until they do figure it out would hardly be the worst course of action.

As I said upthread, I don't consider this that big a deal relatively speaking, but it is a symptom of a larger problem, and the reaction all around has been kind of telling.

swallow swallow's picture

Abolishing Newfoundland recording? That's insane. (As a current Central Canadian overlord, I am required not to care about the pariries, right?) 

quizzical

trivializing, again, the exclusion of the west is oh soooooooooooooooooooooooooo building a "brotherhood" united in fighting the 1%ers.

 

Sean in Ottawa

One of the issues here is that regardless of the cause, which I agree you can study and I think we could even explore as individuals, it is possible to introduce a regional quota until the investigation finds a cause and solution.

I really don't see what the debate is for when the solution is that simple.

I don't think much about this kind of honour really but it is symbolic.

One of the things with wrongs is that it is not just how serious the effect of the wrong that makes it such a problem but how simple the solution. We can accept grudgingly significant unfairness when the solutions are difficult but it is harder to accept an unfairness when the solution, as it is in this case, is quite simple.

So while the West does not suffer greatly in being shortchanged on this one thing -- the symbol of being shortchanged when a solution is so simple would be expected to cause anger. I don't see why we cannot find a consensus on the immediate temporary fix of a quota while people go ahead and look for long-term causes and solutions. We can debate those longer term answers but why debate the immediate resolution?

And sure we can also debate what kind of honours we want to have but this one exists and it can be made to be regionally balanced without a lot of effort or upset..

quizzical

the straw breaking the camel's back analogy is a good one here.

we had to wait to last possible moment legally to get our new seats in the HoC, we get  shafted on Senate representation, our resources comprise the main bulk of the country's GDP but we shit of nothing for infrastructure and federal programing funds, have had our health care transfer payments gutted, our rivers and water systems are now controlled by the NEB to benefit eastern biz and now we've basically been ignored for recognition by the Order of Canada. oh yes and let's not forget our concerns get trivialized by those benefitting from our 2nd classery.

i don't like awards and would like to see them ALL abolished but if they're going to be around then we have a right to equity representation.

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

the straw breaking the camel's back analogy is a good one here.

we had to wait to last possible moment legally to get our new seats in the HoC, we get  shafted on Senate representation, our resources comprise the main bulk of the country's GDP but we shit of nothing for infrastructure and federal programing funds, have had our health care transfer payments gutted, our rivers and water systems are now controlled by the NEB to benefit eastern biz and now we've basically been ignored for recognition by the Order of Canada. oh yes and let's not forget our concerns get trivialized by those benefitting from our 2nd classery.

i don't like awards and would like to see them ALL abolished but if they're going to be around then we have a right to equity representation.

And I get this sentiment. People who care about other things here do not have to reduce a concern about fairness.But people should not assume that you do not believe in fairness just because you live in the East or choose to respond or raise other things that matter. But to me the question from the start really centres around a need for a quote in not just this but a number of things in orer to make sure that there is equity.

I don't want to get into a huge debate over an old issue but I remember stuff like this going with respect to publishing support years ago. asking for reasonable quotas was often rejected and many were bitter and lost respect for the system.

That said I do think a focus on solutions is important and when you discuss those in some cases anger may only increase since as I said when there is a wrong and the solution is so easy the anger will be greater.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
trivializing, again, the exclusion of the west is oh soooooooooooooooooooooooooo building a "brotherhood" united in fighting the 1%ers.

[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/nxosbo.jpg[/IMG]

Billionaire guy wrote:
Hey, did you hear?  The left isn't even opposing us any more!  Half of them are pouting about some award thing.  Has them divided AND conquered!  Want to go halfsies on Canada Post?

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
trivializing, again, the exclusion of the west is oh soooooooooooooooooooooooooo building a "brotherhood" united in fighting the 1%ers.

[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/nxosbo.jpg[/IMG]

Billionaire guy wrote:
Hey, did you hear?  The left isn't even opposing us any more!  Half of them are pouting about some award thing.  Has them divided AND conquered!  Want to go halfsies on Canada Post?

I don't get this -- are you saying that people int he West cannot both argue for equity on this AND fight for other things?

And in the time you took to put down the demand for equality you could have agreed with it -- and you would not have needed to waste time searching for an image.

I already agreed with you that the biggest split in society is economic not regional. But does that mean we must ignore a regional injustice?

Here is a prescription: Go buy a stick of gum. Practice walking with it. You will master it soon and be able to see that many people can do two things at once and hold multiple different opinions at the same time. Kinda fun actually.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I don't get this -- are you saying that people int he West cannot both argue for equity on this AND fight for other things?

Are you asking me?  Because I didn't really get the connection either.  Hence the joke.

quizzical

the time for this joke magoo was when easterners en masse voted for Trudeau as the pretend progressive thereby making sure Canada Post gets gone and everything else. not so much now.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I don't see why we cannot find a consensus on the immediate temporary fix of a quota

Here's the problem with a quota:  Province-of-residence isn't the only "identity" for which people might reasonably demand equity, or proportionality.

How many recipients were LGBQ?  How many use a wheelchair?  Heck, how many were (or identify as) female?  Any "Aspies" in there?

And another problem.  More recipients of the Giller Prize for literature have been born outside of Canada than have been born west of Ontario.  Should this prize simply take turns through each of the provinces and territories?  Or should it still be awarded to the author of the best book? 

I thought we had professional sports for this? ("Go, Leafs, go!!")

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I don't see why we cannot find a consensus on the immediate temporary fix of a quota

Here's the problem with a quota:  Province-of-residence isn't the only "identity" for which people might reasonably demand equity, or proportionality.

How many recipients were LGBQ?  How many use a wheelchair?  Heck, how many were (or identify as) female?  Any "Aspies" in there?

And another problem.  More recipients of the Giller Prize for literature have been born outside of Canada than have been born west of Ontario.  Should this prize simply take turns through each of the provinces and territories?  Or should it still be awarded to the author of the best book? 

I thought we had professional sports for this? ("Go, Leafs, go!!")

If you identify an imbalance that is significant then you can use a quote to fix it while you look at and address the cause. If there is an imbalance in gender, for example then there can be a quota for that. These are Extremely large sections of the population -- almost 50-50 in gender and a substantial number of people in the West -- depending on which province you draw the line the number is massive enough that there should be a statistically large enough sample that we would see equity if it exists.

I get the sense you are now just being provocative as this is not that difficult a concept.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Are you talking about the Giller Prize?

wage zombie

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Here's the problem with a quota:  Province-of-residence isn't the only "identity" for which people might reasonably demand equity, or proportionality.

How many recipients were LGBQ?  How many use a wheelchair?  Heck, how many were (or identify as) female?  Any "Aspies" in there?

Your sophistry is weak as usual.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Are you among the aggrieved?

And if so, might I ask who YOU nominated?

swallow swallow's picture

You know, it's odd. I received an invitation to nominate a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize, which actually almost anyone can nominate for. But I had no idea we could nominate people for the Order of Canada. 

Think I'll make a nomination for Marie Wilson, Murray Sinclair, and Willie Littlechild. Two of them are from the West, if that matters. 

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

I would be happy if there was never another recipient of the Order of Canada... in exchange for rep by pop for the western provinces.

[ETA Ideally I would like to see rep by pop across the board, but if Ontarians are satisified with fewer seats than their population warrants I will defer to their judgment in this matter]

wage zombie

Magoo thinks it would be incomprehiensible to have representation by population for hte western provinces if we don't also have it for people with aspergers.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Actually, I think it's "incomprehensible" to try to ensure "representation by population" for any award of merit.  Representation by population is necessary for government, but not for the Giller Prize, or any other thing like it.

That's why Canada is never stuck having to give back medals at the Winter Olympics. 

ed'd to add:  and y'know, for whatever it's worth, I've always found referring to someone you're addressing in the third person to be a bit passive aggressive and a bit cheap.  See how I'm talking to YOU, and not the crowd?

wage zombie

Well I could certainly undersand you abhoring cheap passive aggressiveness, Mr. Magoo.

Sean in Ottawa

wage zombie wrote:

Well I could certainly undersand you abhoring cheap passive aggressiveness, Mr. Magoo.

Well I use an MS operating system and I hate Microsoft.

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

bagkitty wrote:

I would be happy if there was never another recipient of the Order of Canada... in exchange for rep by pop for the western provinces.

[ETA Ideally I would like to see rep by pop across the board, but if Ontarians are satisified with fewer seats than their population warrants I will defer to their judgment in this matter]

Damn, I really messed that up, didn't I... what I meant to write was "I would be happy if there was never another western recipient of the Order of Canada... in exchange for rep by pop for the western provinces in the House of Commons" (the stuff in italics still stands).

Note to self: make sure you type what you are thinking, not just what you are typing...

wage zombie

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Well I use an MS operating system and I hate Microsoft.

Ha!

quizzical

swallow wrote:
You know, it's odd. I received an invitation to nominate a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize, which actually almost anyone can nominate for. But I had no idea we could nominate people for the Order of Canada. 

Think I'll make a nomination for Marie Wilson, Murray Sinclair, and Willie Littlechild. Two of them are from the West, if that matters. 

i would've nominated Chief Gord Planes Sooke Indian Band, Chief Louie Osoyoos Indian Band and the Ahousat fishermen who saved the people when the whale watching boat went down.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i'd like to take the opportunity raise a glass to george elliott clarke who is a member of the order of canda. he is now the new parliamentary poet laureate.

..clarke in top form.

Unionist

epaulo13 wrote:

..i'd like to take the opportunity raise a glass to george elliott clarke who is a member of the order of canda. he is now the new parliamentary poet laureate.

..clarke in top form.

Beautiful! Thank you! I guess I should go watch all the LEAP clips now.

6079_Smith_W

Quote:

A newly constructed bridge in northern Ontario has reportedly split apart in the cold, closing the Trans-Canada highway — the only road connecting Eastern and Western Canada — indefinitely.

The Nipigon River Bridge has been closed for "an indefinite time due to mechanical issues," according to the Ontario Provincial Police. Local reports suggest an expansion joint has failed.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-tr...

Badriya

Pondering wrote:

It's an incomplete list so I don't think we can pass judgement on it but it isn't a fair question. It's not up to us to find the appointees. I'm sure there are plenty of qualified people from the west in relation to their population.

 Candidates for the Order of Canada are nominated by other Canadians, so it is up to us to nominate them.  As president of an association, I once had to write a letter in support of a candidate's nomination.  And not everyone nominated is selected.

http://gg.ca/document.aspx?id=14944&lan=eng

 

quizzical

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Quote:
A newly constructed bridge in northern Ontario has reportedly split apart in the cold, closing the Trans-Canada highway — the only road connecting Eastern and Western Canada — indefinitely.

The Nipigon River Bridge has been closed for "an indefinite time due to mechanical issues," according to the Ontario Provincial Police. Local reports suggest an expansion joint has failed.

">http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-tr...

ha!

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Quote:
A newly constructed bridge in northern Ontario has reportedly split apart in the cold, closing the Trans-Canada highway — the only road connecting Eastern and Western Canada — indefinitely.

The Nipigon River Bridge has been closed for "an indefinite time due to mechanical issues," according to the Ontario Provincial Police. Local reports suggest an expansion joint has failed.

">http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/nipigon-river-bridge-closed-tr...

ha!

Not sure how this relates to the thread title -- although some answering the story comments said East and West were growing apart anyway.

The one thing that makes no sense is the statemtn that this is everyone's problem, we only have on road with one bridge connecting East to West. How stupid is that? Wouldn't some bright bushy tailed person come up with the idea that you need more than one bridge to connect East and West -- more than one crossing point? We do have a lot of cross Canada traffic, seems crazy to say we are all dependent on one structure.

East and West Canada are big enough that saying there is no detour for one bridge suggests some people have no sense of emergency planning.

quizzical

highways are provincial except for in national parks, maybe people in Ontario should think about how stupid this is when they vote.

it's not my problem. i could care less the TransCanada is broken. it's broken lot's out here in BC but there's many detours to be taken.

Sean in Ottawa

quizzical wrote:

highways are provincial except for in national parks, maybe people in Ontario should think about how stupid this is when they vote.

it's not my problem. i could care less the TransCanada is broken. it's broken lot's out here in BC but there's many detours to be taken.

There is some trade by truck between West and East Canada. Anyone affected by the spin off of that trade are affected -- never mind the private traffic.

Of course it is dumb and yes the Ontario government likely has a responsibility to this screw-up. Of course we are talking about Northern Ontario and few in Toronto remember that it exists.

6079_Smith_W

I didn't intend to have anything more read into it than how tenuous the link is, as a joking reference to this squabble. It was an accident, after all. And given the geography there I'm not surprised there is only one way through (though again, the rail is still open). Other than that, no detours. There are other spots in that route where it is the only road, but at least past Thunder  Bay it isn't that bad a detour to go by the States.

Have to say though, it did remind me of the perennial campaign by some in Northwest Ontario to join Manitoba.

 

quizzical

 i took for the light joke it was.

here in BC there should be a road up to north western BC from Vancouver instead of having to travel east through 1/3rd the province and then go north and west. it's the same thing really except on the verticle.

there's no way hwy 1 can be an emergency escape route for all those people. equally as short sighted stupid thinking on the parts of government and voters on the lower mainland.

Rev Pesky

quizzical wrote:
...here in BC there should be a road up to north western BC from Vancouver instead of having to travel east through 1/3rd the province and then go north and west...

Pardon me for saying,  but a route directly from Vancouver to Prince Rupert would be incredibly difficult to build, to say nothing of what it would cost. Have a look at a topographical map and you'd see the road would be wending it's way through several hundred kilometers of the Coast Mountains. In all likelihood it would be longer than the existng highway.

quizzical

yup there's no roads through the Rockies, Monahees or Cariboos on the valley floors and there's no Coq going across the shoulder tops.

in reality a closer route has already been planned and surveyed  so there's another route out. just no voters in the area to get it done and  Vancouverites are in too much of a denial about how they really do need it.

Rev Pesky

quizzical wrote:

yup there's no roads through the Rockies, Monahees or Cariboos on the valley floors and there's no Coq going across the shoulder tops.

in reality a closer route has already been planned and surveyed  so there's another route out. just no voters in the area to get it done and  Vancouverites are in too much of a denial about how they really do need it.

There are roads through the Rockies, there's even a road from Banff to Jasper within the Rockies. There is no road within any set of mountains like the Coast Mountains. Honestly, just take a look at a map you'll see what I mean. The Coquihalla is absolutely nothing compared to what would be required to get from Vancouver to Prince Rupert. If you want a better understanding of what's involved, take a drive up the Fraser Canyon to Lillooet and then return to Vancouver via Pemberton. Stunningly beautiful scenery, but that road from Lillooet to Pemberton is really only summertime. And it's only a tiny piece of a prospective north/south coastal highway. Oh, a highway could be built alright, it would just take 20-30 years and cost several hundred billions.

quizzical

oh nonsense. it' already been surveyed out and the coastal mountians aren't as bad as the Rockies. i live in the Rockies.

i've been all over BC and the Pemberton Lillooet area and right up to Hyder Alaska on the roads. in through Kitimat too.

talking like you know more about this than me just by looking at a topographic map is pretty funny.

swallow swallow's picture

How long did the Sea to Sky take to widen and how much did it cost? 

Lilooet-Pemberton is such a road of contrasts ... some of the most beautiful scenerey in the world, amazing camping, and some of Canada's most intense poverty visible too. 

Someone probaly deserves an Order of Canada for BC highways work. Or BC First Nations activism. 

Unionist

quizzical wrote:

talking like you know more about this than me just by looking at a topographic map is pretty funny.

I know more than both of you about it.

Way more.

I can't believe how much I know about it.

But you won't catch me pulling rank about this subject just because of my superior knowledge, training, expertise, and life experience. Nope.

Now then... ummm... ahhh...

Ummmm....

Have they repaired that bridge yet?

 

6079_Smith_W

Ah, irony.

But yes, the bridge.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/01/12/nipigon-bridge-problems-sl...

Funny thing is, people in Manitoba worked for years to PREVENT a road up the east side of Lake Winnipeg, which would have opened the area up to logging, mining, and killed a lot of wildlife, caribou in particular.

 

Rev Pesky

quizzical wrote:

oh nonsense. it' already been surveyed out and the coastal mountians aren't as bad as the Rockies. i live in the Rockies.

i've been all over BC and the Pemberton Lillooet area and right up to Hyder Alaska on the roads. in through Kitimat too.

talking like you know more about this than me just by looking at a topographic map is pretty funny.

Strangely enough I was born and raised in coastal BC, and have lived here all my life. As noted  by swallow, how much did the improvements to the Sea to Sky highway cost? I lived in Squamish for 15 years and for all those fifteenn years that highway was being worked on, and is still being worked on. It was only a few days ago that another rockfall north of Horseshoe Bay damaged cars and injured motorists. I was returning to Squamish on the day the M Creek bridge washed out, and missed that washout by a few hours.

In addition to that, I drove concrete mixer from Squamish to Whistler and Pemberton for a few years, so I am sorta familiar with that highway.

Here's a little description of the Coast Mountains where you're going to put your road. Courtesy Wikipedia:

Quote:
Mount Waddington, once known as Mystery Mountain, is the highest peak in the Coast Mountains of British Columbia, Canada.

...Mount Waddington is the highest peak that lies entirely within British Columbia. It and the subrange which surround it, known as the Waddington Range, stand at the heart of the Pacific Ranges, a remote and extremely difficult set of mountains and river valleys.

It is not so far north as its extreme Arctic-like conditions might indicate and Mount Waddington and its attendant peaks pose some of the most serious expedition mountaineering to be had in North America — and some of the most extreme relief and spectacular mountain scenery.

From Waddington's 13,186 ft fang to sea level at the heads of Bute and Knight Inlets is only a few miles; across the 10,000-foot-deep (3,000 m) gorges of the Homathko and the Klinaklini Rivers stand mountains almost as high, and icefields even vaster and whiter, only a few aerial miles away, with a maw deeper than the Grand Canyon, comparable in relief to the Himalayas (to which the terrain of British Columbia was compared by colonial-era travellers).

Mount Waddington is the namesake of the Mount Waddington Regional District, which takes in the seaward slope of the Waddington Range and the adjoining coastline and parts of northern Vancouver Island adjacent to Queen Charlotte Strait.

A bit more about the Coast Range from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Covered in dense temperate rainforest on its western exposures, the range rises to heavily glaciated peaks, including the largest temperate-latitude icefields in the world. It then tapers to the dry Interior Plateau on its eastern flanks, or to the subarctic boreal forest of the Skeena Mountains and Stikine Plateau.

The Coast Mountains are part of the Pacific Ring of Fire, the ring of volcanoes and associated mountains around the Pacific Ocean. It contains some of British Columbia's highest mountains. Mount Waddington, northeast of the head of Knight Inlet with an elevation of 4,019 metres (13,186 ft), is the highest mountain of the Coast Mountains and the highest that lies entirely within British Columbia.

And I'll point out that Mt. Waddington is higher than any mountain in the Rockies. So maybe it's not as funny as all that...

 

 

 

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