Bob Rae on the comments of NDP Deputy Leader Libby Davies on the State of Israel
June 15, 2010 - 2:13pm
"The appropriate decision, given her stature and responsibilities with the NDP, is for Mr. Layton to ask for her resignation as Deputy Leader and for Ms. Davies to issue an apology to all Canadians. Nothing short of that will do." — Bob Rae, MP, 613-992-5234, 416-954-2222,
What a monster. It is rants like this which render clear how much this country needs Libby Davies. And any other federal parliamentarian with the courage to stand up against injustice and edge Canada towards the right side of history.
I wonder who provided him with his talking points...
What a monster. It is rants like this which render clear how much this country needs Libby Davies. And any other federal parliamentarian with the courage to stand up against injustice and edge Canada towards the right side of history.
What nouns and adjectives will we use when Jack Layton heeds this sage advice?
You mean, besides Tom Mulcair?
Grrrrrr.....
Oh, wait a minute - I know what happens next - Libby resigns as Deputy Leader, and Jack accepts her resignation with much regret but understanding why she had to do it!
I thought Jack was going to have to fire her, but that's a much neater solution, isn't it?
Her letter of apology to the Ottawa Citizen is what unfortunately triggered my thought that she is getting tired of holding up this banner alone.
Listen up: I posted a comment to her website last night, supporting her, saying she had nothing to apologize for, pleading with her to stand firm and carry on the good fight. The comments on her site are pre-moderated. My comment has not yet appeared. All we see are the same 7 frenzied Israel cheerleaders that were there last night.
That's why I'm afraid she's getting ready to bolt. Please, please, anyone who knows her or cares for her courageous actions, write to her, phone her, tell her she must continue! If Layton wants to fire her to suckhole to Harper and Rae, let him have to bear the sole responsibility for such a heinous act.
Layton defended her in the Commons during Question Period, and she was sitting right behind him in the camera shot clapping. For your information.
quote: "What nouns and adjectives will we use when Jack Layton heeds this sage advice?"
What could possibly be left in Robin Hood's quiver?
Why the histrionics?
So, OO and George, will we be supporting Libby against these attacks? Or cutting her loose? I think it's time for people to take a stand. Life presents us with critical moments like these. Talk about her, please, not about me. Thanks.
Listen up: I posted a comment to her website last night, supporting her, saying she had nothing to apologize for, pleading with her to stand firm and carry on the good fight. The comments on her site are pre-moderated. My comment has not yet appeared. All we see are the same 7 frenzied Israel cheerleaders that were there last night.
That is distressing - seriously.
See what I mean about censoring some sites - especially those of public figures - not being a good idea? At the very least they should have put the name of the poster and said that it was removed. That way at least you could see numbers.
I think it's time we didn't let ourselves get drawn in to these kinds of set-ups ... from either side.
Apparently the video blogger was interviewing people in an effort to trip them up ... what happened to Helen Thomas as well.
This is becoming a common tactic of the conservative movement, and will be employed heavily at the G8/G20 protests, I predict. They will have a keen market for their video with the new 'Fox North' Sun TV News channel, should it receive a licence from the CRTC, I'm betting as well.
You make it very difficult to avoid mention of yourself, U. Libby is of course the honest one. But can you honestly say, at this point, that she is not wishing she had not been drawn out on Israeli history?
No, you can't say that, because you don't know. So ease up on the histrionics. And enough of the bullshit attempts to demonize those who don't join your rant. That's schoolroom politics.
I see an overwhelmed staff, rather than censoring, in this Unionist. I imagine they also get some time off work, believe it or not. Maybe they slept last night!
I've just shot a letter off to Rae, Davies, Layton and Mulcair. I've also posted about this on my FB status - which is why I learned about Rae's drivel. And I've posted to Libby's fan page there - once you join, you can post freely. No moderation on the front end. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Libby-Davies/7154945923
Here's the letter I emailed. I encourage others to make contact, as Unionist suggests.
No wonder we have so few women in the House. This kind of mean-hearted, hateful and reactionary venom will remind those on the margins that the political machine is no place for them. Well done. Please, the next time you are invited to speak about reinvigorating democracy, take a pass.
At this moment in history, too few politicians in the West honestly acknowledge the plight of the Palestinian people. Libby Davies is one of the few.
She got a few facts wrong in one recorded speech. But her insistence in standing with the oppressed, the dispossessed, the marginalized, the humiliated, the ignored is right. Is inspiring. Is desperately needed. Is where the NDP should be, or it shouldn't be at all.
Thank you, Libby Davies. Jack Layton, show that you are a leader. Stand strongly beside the courageous, just, thoughtful, kind, committed Libby Davies. Stand on the right side of history.
Let Bob Rae stand without you.
Toronto Centre resident
Addresses: Bob Rae and/or Jack Layton Libby Davies Thomas Mulcair
I (like Jack Layton) am supporting Libby.
Here is the letter I sent Bob Rae:
"Hon. Bob Rae,
Dear Sir,
I am not a big follower on the Middle East, but even I can tell that Libby Davis comments in no way questioned Israel existence or it's right to existence. Clearly she is referring to the Palestinian land that Israel has taken in addition to its own sovereign territory. For someone as knowledgeable on foreign affairs as yourself to make these comments makes me wonder about why you are willing to twist another persons words into such lies.
I do hope to see a public apology to Libby Davis in the very near future."
This is the same Bob Rae that some people still swoon over as some sort of interlocutor between the Liberals and the NDP. Anyone who knows him knows that he is the single greatest obstacle to any cooperation between the NDP and the Liberals because he has such a personal hatred of everyone in the NDP and the feeling is entirely mutual.
I think the left is going to have to prepare itself for this next onslaught, and stick together a bit better. The tiniest slip-up is going to get blown out of all proportion, and suck all the oxygen out of debate on issues we care about.
"Some people's" position on a merger / collaboration / coalition has nothing to do with this thread. Are you able to can the message-botism and actually participate in the thread's focus? Or stay out? Please?
Hey Stockholm, Bob Rae is writer's MP. He's mine too. That's icky but that's life. That's who we're writing to. Also, he's the doofus who made the asinine comment about Libby resigning which she should NOT.
And stay on topic, Stockholm.
George, calling the response of some babblers "histrionics" is not okay. Using that same word to describe Unionist specifically is also not okay. Stop. Debate the points, the issues, etc.
I'm being 100% on topic. I think Bob rae is an asshole. I've always thought he was an asshole. I think this is the latest example of how his first instinct to launch a histrionic, gratuitous attack on Libby davies because she's deputy leader of the party he hates with all his heart. If she were Liberal, he wouldn't give a hoot about what she said and wouldn't be trying to totally distort her comments in such a self-serving way.
I can think of a long list of reasons why Bob Rae should resign from Parliament and apologize to all Canadians for the damage he has personally wreaked on the Canadian body politic.
Thanks, Stockholm. This second post is on topic.
And thanks for publishing the text of your letter, writer. I see why they call you writer.
Anyway, this thread title has been way bypassed by history. Harper has demanded that Libby be fired. So have the Friends of Wiesenthal. Mulcair has demanded she "apologize" for supporting BDS (which she didn't actually even support in the interview).
Sorry to be a pessimist, but I'm expecting the "no longer an asset but a liability" thing to be heard next. I'm reading between the lines on this very discussion board. It's amazing how fast things happen.
I just spoke with Libby Davies' constituency office here in Vancouver. (No particularly close connection - she has been my MP, but I've since moved.) They, Libby and the staff, appreciate calls of support; apparently they've listened to some pretty unpleasant stuff over the last few hours.
Not sure if I can post telephone numbers. It's a public number, so I'll chance it, but please delete if inappropriate:
Telephone: 604 775 5800
BDS? "Bush Derangement Syndrome"?
Oh ..... "boycott, divestment and sanctions" campaign. Got it.
Much appreciated, Ripple. There's no problem with posting the publicized contact information of politicians, government offices, etc. Now I've got a call to make.
wrote to Layton demanding he stick up for Libby and to denounce 'Muc'lair, I hope to fuck he bolts...."wanna lose your women voters NDP", side with the wrong side and see what happens.
the fact that Muclair Rae and Harper on the same side in this indicates much.
Just sent more letters off.
The fact that Rae (the Liberals) and Harper (the Conservatives) are attacking on such a flimsy pretext suggests that both parties are desperate to change the channel. It also indicates that NDP polling is worry them very much, or they would not be targeting the 4th party in the House. My guess is that the NDP vote 'universe' is quite big for them to take this step.
So far Layton has struck the right tone, and the fact that Davies is front and centre in the camera frame, as Deputy Leader suggests he will continue to do so. If anyone should be asked to step aside it should be Rae who wouldn't know a principle if it bit him on the ass.
Thanks, Ripple, for posting the phone no. for the constituency office. I just called to express support. Phone calls and emails are running "about half and half", pro and con.
This morning I wrote to Layton and the NDP caucus to express my disgust and promise to give up my membership publicly. More people should simply quit in a public statement.
QUESTION: Does anyone know who the person who ambushed Ms Davies is? Could it be the latest zionist/right wing strategy to "go viral"?
We should probably go for the source and pillory and hound them into oblivion.
Just saw an irate Mr. Herpes berate Layton and demand Davies's resignation. He had the nerve to reference the Helen Thomas resignation as a good thing.
He is the one who should resign.
Is it the same Bob Rae that left the NDP to join the "None is too many" Party?
Just saw an irate Mr. Herpes berate Layton and demand Davies's resignation. He had the nerve to reference the Helen Thomas resignation as a good thing.
He is the one who should resign.
The difference of course is that Helen Thomas clearly said something pretty indefensible, while Libby Davies said something perfectly reasonable. I actually hope the full five minute video of her "interview" goes as "viral" as possible because i think that if people actually watch it - the vast majority of Canadians would nod their head in agreement and see the context in which she mentioned 1948 (though that was still a mistake and I'm glad she clarified her comments about that). To me it was akin to saying that the "occupation" of the Americas began in 1492 - which doesn't mean that Canada, the US and every other country in the western hemisphere is "illegitimate".
So, Mulcair and Rae, up in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g...
I'd like to know why these two are so bent on destroying Libby Davies over pretty much nothing. Is this part of the new party coalition building we keep hearing so much about but that everyone keeps denying?
Are we looking at the new leadership of the Liberal Democrats or something?
P.S. I wrote to Jack Layton, my MP, last night about this. Haven't had a response yet.
This is all over the media. The common message being repeated that Libby believes that Israel is illegitimate and shouldn't exist.
The NDP should find a way to counter this message or Libby will end up being marginalized like Ignatieff was after the Conservative's ad campaign last year.
Maybe Libby should make a statement?
I think Bob Rae wants to "destroy" Libby because his all-consuming passion in life is undermining the NDP and this is just his latest gratuitous attempt to do that.
As i wrote earlier, I think Mulcair just wants to get it "on the record" that he took a hardline taking her to task for saying the "wrong thing re: 1948" and its all about how it looks in his riding. He doesn't want to "destroy" anyone - except maybe Martin Cauchon.
He doesn't want to destroy anyone. Just backstab a very honourable colleague. I hope others will join me in an unwavering, impassioned defence of this extraordinary person.
Her commitment and integrity contrasts with the scrabbling, miserable, petty and dishonest feeding frenzy the machine men seem eager to unleash.
Who stands for democracy? Who stands as a voice to the voiceless?
Libby Davies.
Layton was on CBC Power and Politics. He's firmly clarifying the party's policy, but I get no sense that he's prepared to give in to the right-wing hysteria on this. I agree with Stockholm about what's probably going on here behind the scenes. Note that one Conservative blogger on Twitter is now calling for someone to register the domain name "hezbolibby.com", and someone else is linking her partner to a "pro-Palestinian" website.
I think people are going to protect Libby, but if we let the rightwinters ramp it up any further, we're just waving a red flag at the bull-ies, and encouraging them to keep following people around with videocams.
Bob Rae is an ally of Martin Cauchon's within the Liberal party, by the way, so that's exactly what he's up to. You don't see him doing the same with folks in his own party.
wrote to Layton demanding he stick up for Libby and to denounce 'Muc'lair, I hope to fuck he bolts...."wanna lose your women voters NDP", side with the wrong side and see what happens.
Layton will never criticize Mulcair - he is obsessed with keeping Mulcair's seat at all costs. It means more to him than anything else.
But as you said on the previous thread, hopefully Mulcair will lose his seat in the next election. Mulcair is a very unpleasant man.
It's good that we can agree on something.
If that is Mulcair's intent, he is going about it in a very bizzare way- pissing off lots of NDP members and supporters/voters who look to Libby Davies as a person of integrity and virtue. If Mulcair's is the future of the NDP, than he can have it.
Right now though I think Layton is hanging in there for Davies and I expect to continue to see him do so.
If nothing else this should teach us that the left needs to be much more careful of its language than anyone else. It is totally unfair, but seeing the lies, distortions and pile on happening it is pretty clear that even the most innocent of mistakes can lead to some pretty nasty behaviour by the media and others if it is said by someone on the left. The right it seems can say all kinds of fantastical and repugnent things and that is fine and dandy. This is a lesson we need to learn when criticizing those on the left that are trying to protect themselves from these kinds of attacks.
There is nothing unusual about this hounding of Libby. How is it different from Carole James forcing Mable Elmore to apologize? Or Helen Thomas? Or Leslie Hughes? Or Svend Robinson? The dominant ideology in North America prohibits any thoroughgoing critique of Israeli aggression and apartheid. The NDP has never wavered from that, no more than the Liberal party or Obama. This is simply a question of taking sides and sticking with our allies and best voices. Libby falls in that category, and she needs unconditional support right now.
Exactly there is nothing unusual, which is why parsing every single word uttered by an NDP MP is so useless, but it goes on here ALL the time.
This incident shows they must pick their words carefully as the standard they are held to is much different than any other party in Canada, especially the Conservatives by the MSM. You can make this about hating the NDP, but this issue makes it clear that the NDP is held to a much higher standard then anyone else from both sides. It makes the job almost impossible when supposed allies attack as well.
Yes, she must be supported.
You do see how getting a simple date wrong has turned something into a story that has allowed the government and Liberals to squirm out of accountability for that deal on the detainee documents, though.
That's exactly the intent behind doing that kind of gotcha video blogging, and I think we're going to see more of it. And I sure don't think Libby should be sacrificed to that kind of agenda. I think our strength is to have both of them as Deputy Leaders. We take the bait every time someone tries a divide-and-conquer, which is why they have so much fun doing it.
This came to me through Facebook. Thought others might find at least some of the information useful:
Yesterday I urged you (1) to send an e-mail to NDP MPs, (2) to "like" Libby's fan page on Facebook, and (3) to post a message of support on her page.
Tonight and especially tomorrow (Wed Jun 16), I am encouraging you to take the following FOUR very quick actions:
[1]► CONTINUE sending e-mails to the NDP caucus. Repeat e-mails with new thoughts and facts (see notes below) are definitely helpful. You can copy the list of e-mail addresses from: http://tinyurl.com/ybkemmd
[2]► TELEPHONE Libby's Parliament office to express your thanks and support for her and her accurate statements: 613-992-6030. (If you live in the Vancouver area, also call her constituency office: 604-775-5800.)
EXAMPLE of what to say (leave a voicemail if necessary):
"Hello. My name is _____ and I am an NDP member/supporter from _____. I am calling to express my total support for Libby and her recent statements about Palestine. Everything she has said is entirely accurate and perfectly legitimate, and she is to be commended for her courageous and principled stand. Please ensure that Libby receives my message. Thank you."
[3]► TELEPHONE Jack Layton's Parliament office (613-947-0867) to say that you support Libby, endorse her comments about Palestine, and that you are very disappointed in his criticism of Libby. It is shameful that Jack is siding with the Israel Lobby; we thought he was different from the Liberals and Conservatives. (If you live in Toronto, please also call his constituency office: 416-405-8914).
[4]► TELEPHONE NDP MP Thomas Mulcair's Parliament office (613-995-7691) to say that you are extremely disappointed and disgusted by his attack on Libby -- his colleague -- and by his decision to side with the Israel Lobby, the Liberals, and the Conservatives. His actions are absolutely shameful and an embarrassment to New Democrats. (If you live in the Montreal area, please also call his constituency office: 514-736-2727).
THANK YOU, FRIENDS. As a final step, please copy and forward this message to all like-minded and progressive people in your networks ... [W]e need to remind the Party that it should ... follow the lead of its supporting grassroots activists and its own founding principles.
PS. Remember to "like" and/or post a(nother) supportive message on Libby's Facebook fan page at: http://tinyurl.com/34rn63z
Life, that is pretty much what I wrote to Muclair and Jack this am.....you wanna see women walk away from the NDP? It would be over this.
'Muc'lair has shown himself to be just another ass nubby.
And you know as I stated before about something else, if this was a man, who had said this, or similar, no a damn thing would have been done by Muclair. Nor perhaps by Rae and Harper... that it is a woman and a feminist they could not wait to "get her", IMV.
Drive women out of politics seems to be the order of the day.
It's definitely odd to hear one deputy leader attack the other publicly.
Actually, each of these "incidents" needs to be judged on its own merits and they can't all be lumped together. I think that Libby's relatively benign and perfecctly defensible comments cannot in any way be compared with Helen Thomas saying that all Israelis should "go back where they came from" (ie: Poland and Germany) or Wendy Hughes suggesting wild conspiracy theories that the Mossad cooked up 9/11 etc...this is comparing apples and oranges. Quite frankly, I think its insult to Libby Davies to juxtapose her with those two idiots.
Exactly there is nothing unusual, which is why parsing every single word uttered by an NDP MP is so useless, but it goes on here ALL the time.
This incident shows they must pick their words carefully as the standard they are held to is much different than any other party in Canada, especially the Conservatives by the MSM. You can make this about hating the NDP, but this issue makes it clear that the NDP is held to a much higher standard then anyone else from both sides. It makes the job almost impossible when supposed allies attack as well.
No, the NDP is not. What is held to a whole other standard is Israel. All debate is always about poor Israel. Israel just murdered 9 people. The IRC has just announced Israel is in violation of international law for the purposeful and cruel brutalization of a parcel of land made up of mostly children. But there shall be no criticism of this. And any criticism of this shall be beaten down and the critic isolated and ruined.
The Liberals can't rise above the polls because Canadians recognize the party as morally bankrupt and weak. This is an opportunity for the NDP to stand apart and actually be the conscience of Canada and actually express the morality so many Canadians are waiting to grasp on to. Will they? I doubt it. This fiasco more than anything demonstrates how badly we need a new party of the left.
True I could have added that the stakes for a woman on the left are even higher.
ETA
Sorry that was @remind just to make it clear.
Exactly there is nothing unusual, which is why parsing every single word uttered by an NDP MP is so useless, but it goes on here ALL the time.
This incident shows they must pick their words carefully as the standard they are held to is much different than any other party in Canada, especially the Conservatives by the MSM. You can make this about hating the NDP, but this issue makes it clear that the NDP is held to a much higher standard then anyone else from both sides. It makes the job almost impossible when supposed allies attack as well.
No, the NDP is not. What is held to a whole other standard is Israel. All debate is always about poor Israel. Israel just murdered 9 people. The IRC has just announced Israel is in violation of international law for the purposeful and cruel brutalization of a parcel of land made up of mostly children. But there shall be no criticism of this. And any criticism of this shall be beaten down and the critic isolated and ruined.
The Liberals can't rise above the polls because Canadians recognize the party as morally bankrupt and weak. This is an opportunity for the NDP to stand apart and actually be the conscience of Canada and actually express the morality so many Canadians are waiting to grasp on to. Will they? I doubt it. This fiasco more than anything demonstrates how badly we need a new party of the left.
That's right the continued occupation is all the fault of the NDP. Get a grip. But thanks again for proving my point about the standards the NDP are held too.
Yes, it is odd to see a deputy leader go out of his way to attack the other deputy leader. This is why I'd like to know just what he's got up his sleeve. And whatever it is, Jack Layton better not be going along with it.
This is all over the media. The common message being repeated that Libby believes that Israel is illegitimate and shouldn't exist.
The NDP should find a way to counter this message or Libby will end up being marginalized like Ignatieff was after the Conservative's ad campaign last year.
Maybe Libby should make a statement?
I honestly don't think there will be any marginalization of Davies.
After the Gaza flotilla massacre, the lights went off on the "you're de-legitimizing Israel" attack. It still plays in Ottawa, on media covering backroom politics, and in the Canwest papers. But the average Canadian just doesn't accept that anymore.
And Davies, unlike Ignatieff, is a real politician who can communicate real issues and concerns with people. Ignatieff was marginalized because he is a marginal political talent.
Further evidence: Warren Kinsella, who previously would have denounced Davies as the devil incarnate because of this, has been silent so far.
accent on "supposed".
In the last thread I was at first called out for fingering Muclair, then sided with pretty quickly when it became apparent, that thius was a way to bash the NDP. made themselves completely identifiable, if they were not already.
Was almost sorry I fingered Muclair as it gave an opening. But Muclair deserves to be fingered for his part in this.
Thanks for the posting of the letter writer.
The blogger that interviewed Libby in this viral video can be found at:
Comments from Left Field
Yep in my books it is Mulcair who stepped over the line, not Davies. He is the one that needs to be apologizing. I sure wouldn't want to be in the next caucus meeting. Although my personal experience with Libby Davies suggest to me she will take the high road when she has every right to be hoofing it on the low road.
Stockholm, our enemies will (and do) talk about Libby with exactly the same venom you use about these other two women, both of whom had decades of progressive achievements to their name. Which side are we on - focus on that.
That may be so - but that doesn't mean that we have to play along by lumping these incidents together when they are are very different and each needs to be disc8ussed on its own merits. If Libby Davies had actually said what Helen Thomas said (which she never would) and explicitly said that Israel had no right to exist and that all Israelis 6 million ought to be expelled to wherever their great-grandparents came from - then I suspect she would be sitting as an Independent MP today and no one would be shedding any tears over it.
Judy Rebick stands firmly behind Libby.
It is a matter of debate whether the occupation started in 1948 or 1967. If you are of the view that the expulsion of the Palestinians from their homes when Israel was founded was unacceptable than the occupation began there. If you agree with the foundation of state of Israel whatever the costs to the Palestinian people then you think the occupation started in 1967. Believing that the foundation of the state of Israel was unjust does not mean that you think the state of Israel should not continue to exist. I believe that the foundation of Canada was unjust but I don't call for the dissolution of Canada; although I am starting to consider it.
I am Jewish and have always opposed Zionism. It was a debate among Jews. It is a legitimate debate. Libby however is not of the view that the state of Israel should not have been founded in its current form. She made a mistake and that was clear on the video. Yet she was publicly criticized by her leader Jack Layton, ferociously attacked by her colleague Thomas Mulcair and now under sustained attack in the House.
And for whom are they speaking? In a recent BBC poll, only 23 percent of Canadians had a positive attitude towards Israel and 52 percent had a negative view. Libby is speaking for the majority of Canadians on this issue.
Libby is one of the best Members of Parliament. She is firmly rooted in her community, one of the poorest in the countries. She stands up for what's important and in these days of the rightward slide of the NDP, she is usually on the right side of most issues. She is also a wonderful person and doesn't deserve this shit.
... Helen Thomas saying that all Israelis should "go back where they came from" (ie: Poland and Germany) ...
Sorry for the drift, but shouldn't you have to write what the person actually said if you're going to put it in quotes?
Q: Any comments on Israel? We're asking everyone today, any comments on..
Thomas: Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.
Q: Oooh. Any better comments?
Thomas: Remember, these people are occupied, and it's their land. It's not German and it's not Polish.
Q: So where should they go, what should they do?
Thomas: They can go home.
Q: Where is home?
Thomas: Poland. Germany.
Q: So you are saying Jews should go back to Poland?
Thomas: And America and everywhere else. Why push people out who have lived their for centuries? See?
Thank you for correcting the record, Ripple.
I really appreciate Unionist's list. I see progressive women. And one progressive openly gay man. Easy pickings it seems - in an age when Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, Anne Coulter, Sarah Palin and so many others ooze the most astonishing lies and hate with nary a whimper.
Reading the comments some people are leaving on the internet about this story has been disheartening.
I've seen too many homophobic comments regarding this story today. And too many anti-Muslim comments.
There have even been some classist comments about Libby's riding being drug infested! People are even making fun of people in Libby's riding.
Reading those verbatims actually makes Thomas's comments look even worse and more damaging that i originally thought.
That just shows you the kind of people who want her to resign. Homophobic, poor-bashing, racist haters.
Agree about NOT lumping Libby, with others. It does Libby a great disservice.
Agree Michelle and 'Muc'lair just fed 'em.
Can we just put one thing to rest, and even Rebick erronously repeats this. Jack Layton has not attacked or even criticized Libby Davies. He said she made a serious error, which Davies herself has also said. She did make one. Serious error does not mean it was intentional, it means it was an error with consequences. Seeing how the MSM and other political parties are using this is it really so hard to understand it was a serious error. She opened herself up to insunations about Isreal's right to exist. It was an ooopsie, but it was still a serious error, if for no other reason than she should have been more circumspect about who she was making comments too on camera and how they might be used and by whom. Not thinking about that is an error. Nothing worth getting upset about much, but surely a learning opportunity.
Besides the one comment about making an error Layton has been steadfastly supporting Davies. So by all means get your hate on for the NDP, but at least be accurate about it. Crimmey.
I agree 100% with "Life..."
The more I read about Libby Davies,the more I like her...It's really too bad I don't live in her riding.
If Layton were to make her resign,what party would progressive and/or free thinking realist Canadians turn to?
I wouldn't mind seeing Ms. Davies becoming new leader of the NDP when Jack steps down.
Does anyone else feel that Canada needs a Progressive Liberal party--the polar opposite of the old PC party?
Seems the neocons have a new weapon to saturate their warped points of view onto as many Canadians as possible as they now have a 24 hour soap box-(coming soon to a TV channel near you)...Not to mention the Reform Party's current ' divide and conquer' strategy.
And here we have the Liberals acting just like the Reform Party,protecting the Zionist powers that be from criticism or any mention of what the world according to these people should be absolutely oblivious to.
Clearly,we have a pretty huge problem to tackle over there in sleepy Ottawa.
EDIT : When I mentioned Progressive Liberal,I was not insinuating any affiliation with the PLC.
Excuse me, no one is "getting their hate on about the NDP". Jack Layton chastised her in the media. He told the media that Libby Davies made a serious mistake. Then he reiterated it by repeating that he told her she made a serious mistake.
That, my friend, is criticizing her, and publicly, in the media. It's about as critical as you can get.
I have no idea whether he has been "steadfastly supporting her" since then. All I know is that with that statement, he fed the media frenzy and, along with Mulcair, helped the right-wing media declare open season on Libby. There are lots of things he could have said to distance himself and the party from her remarks without chastising her the way he did.
"I wouldn't mind seeing Ms. Davies becoming new leader of the NDP when Jack steps down."
She speaks no French GONG!!!
She speaks no French GONG!!!
Neither can Adolf Harper GONG!!
Excuse me, no one is "getting their hate on about the NDP". Jack Layton chastised her in the media. He told the media that Libby Davies made a serious mistake. Then he reiterated it by repeating that he told her she made a serious mistake.
That, my friend, is criticizing her, and publicly, in the media. It's about as critical as you can get.
I have no idea whether he has been "steadfastly supporting her" since then. All I know is that with that statement, he fed the media frenzy and, along with Mulcair, helped the right-wing media declare open season on Libby. There are lots of things he could have said to distance himself and the party from her remarks without chastising her the way he did.
That is not being critical- that is an admission that a mistake is being made. If I point out to someone they made a mistake it does not mean I am being critical- it is pointing out they made a mistake. Why the heck is that so hard to understand. If someone you like/care about/know makes a mistake and you point it out or tell them are you being critical? I don't think so - I think you are being realistic, honest and acting in their best interests.
Layton did not lend a hand to the feeding frenzy. It was coming anyway. So let's get that right too. All Layton did was try to head it off. The thing everyone seems to be missing is that LIBBY DAVIES also said she made a mistake. Was she feeding into the frenzy too? Or was she simply stating the obvious like Layton.
Mulcair deserves all the derision and contempt people can dump on him, but it simply isn't true that Layton has been critical.
Hey anyone else notice hardly anyone is talking about the heinous cover up committed by the Liberals, BQ and Conservatives today. That couldn't be a plan could it and people are falling for it hook, line and sinker? Nah couldn't be.
Thanks to Mulcair.
It makes me want to take up serious drinking.
Me, I'm not falling for anything. I am doing what I can to make sure that one fully realized human being knows she is not alone amongst the jackals.
Hey anyone else notice hardly anyone is talking about the heinous cover up committed by the Liberals, BQ and Conservatives today. That couldn't be a plan could it and people are falling for it hook, line and sinker? Nah couldn't be.
I've only just got this far, catching up on this thread, and I've been asking that very question all the way through.
Thanks to Mulcair.
Surely you are not that naive?
Muclair's comments are a problem in terms of attacking a collegue, but even if everyone in the NDP told reporters to go pound stone this was still going to get exactly the kind of coverage it is getting. You need only read the factless story in the Star and other media outlets to see that the MSM was just salivating to have something like this to write about today instead of pointing out what the Liberals and Conservatives were up to.
In fact, I have to think that if Layton had just simply said go pound stone the hysterical nature of much of the reporting (if I can call it that) would have been even worse.
Telling a friend they made a mistake is one thing.
Telling the media that your friend made a mistake, and then reiterating the statement by reassuring the media that you chastised her well ("I told her she made a mistake") is about as critical as you can get.
Especially since he didn't have anything to say about the "mistake" that Mulcair made in attacking a colleague and bringing on the MSM attack on Libby to begin with.
What the NDP should do is point out all the factual errors and anti-palestinian "they're all part of some crazy terrorist plot" comments made by liberals and conservatives in the last 6 months....all done over and over with no attempt to correct their mistakes.
see you really gets their facts wrong!
I'll agree that is a serious error and something I am very disappointed in Layton in allowing and not going after.
But maybe more will come out of the next caucus meeting?
I condem Mulcair and Layton for not coming out and STRONGLY defending Davies, and I condemn Davies for turning coward and saying she had made a mistake.
There was no mistake. There may be an argument whether the 1948 occupation was legitimate and justified or not, but there can be no argument that that is exactly what it was, an occupation.
And Judy Rebic had it exactly correct when she said "in these days of the rightward slide of the NDP".
Principle by principle; value by value; the NDP are becoming more and more irrelevent to progressives who believe that being "softly supportive" of oppression, inequality, and war is not good enough to be considered progressive.
Hopefully, Life.
According to Murray Dobbin, the video was going nowhere on YouTube - 24 hours after it was posted, it had only 28 views. Then Mulcair got wind of it and started whipping up a firestorm over it.
The next day the interview appeared on YouTube. But in 24 hours it had gone nowhere – just 28 views. Then the most vociferous supporter of Israel in the NDP caucus, Thomas Mulcair, got wind of it and it escalated out of control. He went on a relentless campaign to punish Libby. The spin he helped create was that if Libby believed the occupation began in 1948 then she, ipso facto, believes that Israel has no right to exist. Libby has always gone to great lengths to make it clear that she supports Israel’s right to exist and the two-state solution endorsed by the NDP. But suddenly Jack Layton was in full-panic mode. He apologized to the Israeli ambassador. He hung Libby out to dry. He forced her to issue a public apology.
Apology? For what?
Exactly. Mulcair should be the one apologizing. It's unbelievable. He just completely manufactured a media firestorm against his colleague, and for what?
That is the question that I keep wondering about. What does he stand to gain with Libby out of the way?
I think it's pretty obvious why Rae did this today (am I on topic, given that Rae is in the thread title?) -- see Life, the universe ... @ 71 and following. The NDP did something admirable today, but no one is talking about it. Instead, good ole Bob managed to manufacture a scandal for us.
I support Libby unconditionally, and I've written a SWL to Jack plus a message of support to Libby. I'll blog about it if I can get past the writer's block.
But man, I'm with Stockholm. (How can that be happening? It keeps happening? Am I getting old or something?) We shouldn't be on the defensive with this. We should be going for the jugular. Bob Rae is the most vulnerable high-profile policitian in the country, maybe not in his own riding but in terms of the obvious long-term ambition he once had. Back-up Bob is the second reason Harper is still PM (Iggy being the first) -- he is vulnerable from both the right and the left, a real accomplishment in Canada, and if the right are wrong about him, old ONDPers are not. It's a crying shame that someone of his potential has turned out to be the jerk that he is, but he has, and if he is daring to do something as filthy as this, an attack at two levels, on Libby personally and then as a way of producing a bright shiny object to distract everyone from the Liberal sell-out on Parliamentary supremacy, then I say go for him.
One wonders who tipped Mulcair off too? Or does he spend his nights trolling YouTube looking for videos of Libby Davies. Something smells in all of this, and it is Mulcair and Rae
MY impression was that no one was paying attention to this until the National Post (who else) decided to run a story about it etc...
well that's slightly different, but it doesn't excuse Mulcair's behaviour to a fellow caucus member.
Exactly. Mulcair should be the one apologizing. It's unbelievable. He just completely manufactured a media firestorm against his colleague, and for what?
That is the question that I keep wondering about. What does he stand to gain with Libby out of the way?
Nothing. I don't think its about her personally, I think that whether rightly or wrongly, Mulcair is very sensitive about getting tarred with an "anti-Israel" brush in his riding. That's my opinion.
My question is why now? Libby has been using much the same language for quite some time. When we marched through the streets after the flotilla massacre the crowd was chanting about divestment and boycotts and 62 years of occupation. Libby spoke immediately at the end of the march and she makes no secret that she supports the struggle of the Palestine people against the IDF occupiers. Let us not forget that Libby is also the most effective and vocal proponent of sane drug policy in this country. There are many reasons for her to be attacked. So can Mulclair deliver the Quebec NDP vote to the Liberals if he goes "back" home to the federal wing of his old party?
By the way, Layton did both political shows today, taking all the fire on this one. In particular, take a look at the interview he did with Tom Clark. He's not taking any guff from Clark on this, in spite of considerable provocation, and was also talking about how people are suffering.
Libby has apparently cancelled out of another news conference on another topic in Toronto tomorrow, which is good, because why drag this on for another day.
CBC just added a story
Calls for NDP MP to resign after Israel comments
My question is why now? Libby has been using much the same language for quite some time.
This is all about the attack on the flotilla and the Israeli murderers' worldwide campaign to crush all dissent, along with their staunch allies. That's "why now" for Helen Thomas, who has been saying the same things for decades. Libby took a principled stand - Layton weaseled out as usual - and Mulcair followed the marching orders of the Israel lobby. This is a critical time for Israel, where fence-sitters around the world may tip the "wrong" way. What happened to Libby is the least of what we will see.
Never. He was elected by convincing people who voted Bloc last time (like me) to switch. And why would he go "home"? What conflict do you see between him and his new home?
Wow..The motive has been written in black and white...The NDP's star (and only) MP from Quebec is from the riding of Outremont which has a high Hissidic Jew populous.
The irony is that Hissidic Jews OPPOSE Israel as a state and are staunch anti-Zionists.
EDIT : Admittedly I am not an expert on the Jewish community so I MAY be confusing Hissidic Jews with Orthodox..I`m referring to those who grow the beards and dress uniformally.You see them at any and every protest against Zionism.
Yeah, Alan, you are very confused. Let's leave it at that.
I think you missed the point I was making. But just so that I am clear on yours, you don't think the NDP should be held to a higher stand than the morally corrupt conservatives or the morally bankrupt liberals? No worries there, I think.
Thanks for your know it all arrogance,Unionist
I'll condemn Layton and Mulcair for not coming out swinging on the attack.
Listen, enough of the bullshit.
People on the left in the country were first to fight fascism and it's inherant anti-semitism while Mackenzie God Damn King was writting in his diary what a splendid fellow Adolf Hitler was, and discarding a pleasent conversation with a fellow just because the fellow was a Jew.
I will tell you something.
The NDP and and it's members are not not anti-semitic because of political expedience. We despise anti semitism because it is wrong.
Not IF NOT IF my friends, by WHEN it once again provides political traction to be anti-semetic, the Liberals and the Conservatives will be goose stepping all over each other to be in the front of that anti-semitic brown shirt parade.
Just like they were before, on the edges of this nations living memory.
funny how this thread about the Liberal Bob Rae and his actions turns into a 'why the NDP is evil' thread once again. Look over here- see my shiny thing and progressives fall for it once again.
Just watched Layton online. I agree with ottawaobserver, that he stood up to the reporters interviewing him about Davies. He kept saying she made a mistake (which I guess is the party line on this now, so whatever), but that she has apologized and that's the end of it for him.
I also agree that Bob Rae is doing this in order to deflect attention from the fact that the Liberals just caved on important legislation. He's a pretty nasty piece of work.
alan smithee, you are new here, so you don't know us like some of us know each other. Unionist is in Mulcair's riding, and very active there. He knows who lives in his home. Unionist is also of Jewish descent, and has established his breathtaking knowledge about Judaism and the varied strands of Jewish traditions time and time again here on babble. He has also written many very moving accounts about his own family's experience of anti-semitism.
With this in mind, he was very measured with you. Please respond in kind next time.
<double post>
Well,writer...First off,I didn`t know he was Jewish and I certainly had no idea that he lived in Outremont..The only people I know who are Jewish do not actively practice their religion..Hence,I don`t know much about the different practices of Judaism.
And I was pointing that out because I don`t know everything...If I did,I`d have no reason to listen to anyone.
When people were celebrating Israel Day a month or so ago,who was there protesting...Seriously,I don`t know if they are Hissidic or Orthodox and how would I know...I know VERY little about religion--period.
I apologize if I overreacted
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism
That perhaps appears snyde when I didn't mean it to. It's just that sometimes when you are in doubt, it doesn't hurt to google a few terms, particularly in a heated environment.
Boring!
I just wrote to Bob Rae and Jack layton. I hope they are listening to all of us (not that I expect much out of Rae)
Dear Bob,
When my daddy was off killing Nazis, I note yours was safe in Canada, kissing his way up the hierarchy of a Party that sent the S.S. St. Louis back to Germany.
Perfidiousness never falls far from the tree.
Heh. I dare you to send that to him. :D
Double dare!
Oh no Michelle, I wouldn't send that to him in a letter; but I sure hope I live long enough to say it to his face.
I've been eye ball to eye ball with Mr. Rae before, and he was the one who blinked.
What's wrong with him is wrong all the way through him.
Well, maybe I will send it in a letter. I doubt our paths will cross. But I never write letters angry.
And, I am some angry now.
Thanks TP for the wiki link...OK,Orthodox and Hasidic(now spelt correctly)Jews are one and the same.
Excellent,you live and read and learn.
But my point was,that the riding of Outremont has this city's largest Orthodox Jewish community and Thomas Mulcair is the MP or that riding.
Protests I have been to ,it's Orthodox jews that participate against Zionism..This makes Mulcair's motive ironic.
What is being lost--first by the politicians,then the media and now parts of our population--is that criticizing Israel or pointing out an inconvenient truth about Israel,has NOTHING to do with Judaism.
'The New Anti-Semitism' is a myth that we must bust.
That's how i see it..I'm sure others will see it a different way.
Hmm, you'll have to tell me that story sometime when I see you and Rebecca next, Tommy. Speaking of which, you should come visit sometime this summer! Okay, I know, wildly off topic, but this thread is probably about to be closed for length anyhow. :)
I've been eye ball to eye ball with Mr. Rae before
So was I. Just before he was elected premier of Ontario. What I remember was that we, "the little people", were nothing more than background for his media statement. When the camera lights went dim, Mr. Rae was gone without even an acknowledgement that any of us were alive.
As for the St. Louis, Canada has a long, long history of moral cowardice.
Right on cue, Michelle.
ETA: Er, almost. Anyway, closing for length. Perhaps continue in the "Stand Up for Libby Davies" Thread or start a new one about the political machinations.