Perhaps we could use this thread to discuss such issues as:
1. The position of the various political parties on the Afghanistan situation.
2. The evolving views of Canadians (as indicated by polls and otherwise).
3. How to influence public opinion on issues relating to the war/invasion.
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The UNOFFICIAL STORY CBC Fifth Estate special on 9/11
I think Uncle Sam's trumped-up pretext presented to the public for waging this global war on terror, and in several countries situated geographically and strategically on the doorsteps of those former principal enemies during the cold war, is a good place to start informing people as to the whys and what-fors of the current warfiteering and colder war manouvering. The American public are already questioning the pretext and what might be their real motives.
"Millions of people have been misled regarding the causes and consequences of September 11.
When people across the US and around the World find out that Al Qaeda is not an outside enemy but a creation of US foreign policy and the CIA, the legitimacy of the bipartisan war agenda will tumble like a deck of cards." (Michel Chossudovsky, War and Globalization, The Truth behind September 11, 2002)
How Many Buildings Collapsed on 9/11 in New York?Harper not on Obama's Afghan call list
Prime Minister Stephen Harper will not be among the world leaders briefed personally by U.S. President Barack Obama about his plans for a new strategy in Afghanistan.
Obama will contact a number of leaders, including those of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, China and Russia. But despite Canada's lengthy military commitment to the troubled region, Vice-President Joe Biden has been given the task of relaying the president’s plans to Harper.
This is shocking. After all we've done. What a disgrace. Perhaps we should do a "surge" of our own, to get back in this progressive peace-making President's good books?
Is it that our stooges don't even rate a white telephone - a direct leased line to the White House? Or is it a blue phone? Red, white and blew? I forget which it is now.
Too funny. If Canada would have been on Obamas personal call list you would have been complaing and griping about that wishing it was the vice prez who called haper lol
And what could his new plan possibly be?
More soldiers to the area surprise.
I think you missed the sarcasm lol
Obama is placing a large number of American soldiers under Canadian Command shortly, depending on the news source as much as a complete American Brigade will be under TFK command and control.
I am not truly surprised that only the VP talked / or will talk to Harper. Obama's plan has known for a while.
Too funny. If Canada would have been on Obamas personal call list you would have been complaing and griping about that wishing it was the vice prez who called haper lol
I think you missed the sarcasm lol
Nope!
Obama is placing a large number of American soldiers under Canadian Command shortly, depending on the news source as much as a complete American Brigade will be under TFK command and control.
Oh we're up to our necks in blood and torture today for sure.
They're mad at the Germans. They want a larger German contingent and for them to learn to kill again but for the vicious empire this time.
That's easy for you to say.
I was going to post some facts about KGB torturers in Afghanistan from the 70s and 80s however I know you do not do well with facts and figures.
I was going to post some facts about KGB torturers in Afghanistan from the 70s and 80s however I know you do not do well with facts and figures.
Read all about it in Reader's Digest and NY Times in the 70's and 80's. Afghans themselves have said that the Soviet torture was bad. But they've since said that the American torture is worse. Apparently in addition the electric shock therapy, American torture often breaks down into random vicious beatings for their captors enjoyment. Similarly, Iraqis have said the torture is worse now than it was under Saddam. Our largest trade partners are earning quite a reputation around the world where er they march into.
Communist era mass grave discovered hightlights need for post-war
From Webgear's link:
In 2002, months after US forces and several Afghan militia groups toppled the Taliban, the bodies of thousands of Taliban fighters were found in a grave in northern Afghanistan.Human rights groups blamed the killings on Abdul Rashid Dostum, one of Afghanistan's most feared regional commanders, who is now an advisor to Afghan President Hamid Karzai.
Just to round out the story a bit.
I'm more concerned about crimes committed by us against Afghans (i.e. ones we can stop if we want) than those committed by someone else. Just one of my quirks I guess.
Commenting on the recent Human Rights Watch (HRW) report released on 12 December, calling on Karzai to address war crimes justice, Malalai Joya, a parliamentarian, criticised the president's current policy saying he was being too soft on the country's powerful warlords.
"The president needs to be more firm and crucial against the warlords and druglords and should not make compromises with them, because they are still being implicated in various human rights violations in our country," Joya told IRIN.
"Our people demand justice to all the atrocities whether it is committed by the communists, warlords or the Taliban," he maintained.
Mujahideen warlords in Karzai's government are war criminals, too. According to RAWA, the CIA's "freedom fighters" were ruthless mofos in the 1980s and then again in the 90'
s when they turned their weapons on each other and destroyed Kabul and Jalalabad. Yanks and Brits and their Saudi friends have all supported the scum of the earth in relatively recent past.
Blood-Stained Hands: Past Atrocities in Kabul and Afghanistan's Legacy of Impunity
Concerning the position of the various political parties is it known that courageously the first person in the House of Commons to speak about the possibility of Canada being implicated in a torture connection was the NDP's Dawn Black, who by-the-way, was hooted and hollared at, and labeled a Taliban lover, etc., by the Con back benchers, and that the NDP is presently asking for a public inquiry. I wonder where the Liberals and the Bloc will be on this, because with their support an inquiry could be forced on the government.
The Afghanistan Justice Project: War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity: 1978-2001
Blood-Stained Hands: Past Atrocities in Kabul and Afghanistan's Legacy of Impunity
Instead, it was one of its darkest eras. As this report shows, Kabul in 1371 was the scene
of almost constant armed conflict among hostile Afghan military factions-rival
mujahedin forces and defecting army forces who swept into the city after the Sovietbacked
government collapsed. During this period, the various factions battled over
Kabul and committed countless atrocities against the Afghan civilian population. Tens
of thousands of civilians were killed and injured amidst the fighting. Many if not most
of these civilian casualties were the result of direct or indiscriminate attacks on the
civilian population and other serious violations of international humanitarian law (the
laws of war). Militias abducted thousands of civilians during this period; most were
never seen again. Much of the city was looted and destroyed. Most of the destruction
that scars Kabul even today took place during this period and in the years immediately
following-before the Taliban marched on Kabul.
Afghanistan, the CIA, bin Laden,
and the Taliban
And if any Canadian soldiers happen to eyeball Osama bin Laden while theyre over there on that side of the world so far from the North Atlantic Treaty Org's designated cold war era boundary, just remember he's not even wanted by the FBI for having anything to do with 9/11.
From the Afghans will win thread post #16
Yeah, he's our little puppet in Kabul. If any major warlord(s) were to turn against him or if he were to lose favor from the White House and/or the Pentagon << POOF >> goodby Karzai!
Well IMV, people brushed past this little statement in pretty quickly, and apparently overlooked the implications....
Suncor/Sunoco, is the largest company in the Tar Sands
Is he our little puppet in Kabul, or are we the Canadian taxpayer his little puppets in financing Sunoco's expansion into Afghanistan, and we are losing young Canadians for HIS and Suncor interests...
I'm unable to trace that quote about Karzai anywhere remind, do you have a direct link?
You mean to frmrsldr's quote, or to one that says Karzi is a shareholder in Sunoco?
The former is at the first red letter link and then it is post # 16, here is the permalink
or the latter?
Personally am prepared to accept frmsldr's statement as fact. Did not even bother to google it....
Hamid Karzai is one their own "freedom fighters" who joined the freedom-loving mujahideen in the 1980's and then played a role in the freedom-loving mujahideen government in Kabul in 1992. And now he's heading up a corrupt government made up of mujahideen warlords, kleptocrats, and drug dealers, and other leftovers from the proxy war on democracy.
Obama is placing a large number of American soldiers under Canadian Command shortly, depending on the news source as much as a complete American Brigade will be under TFK command and control.
I am not truly surprised that only the VP talked / or will talk to Harper. Obama's plan has known for a while.
NATO changes Canadian area of responsibility in Kandahar
"Task Force Kandahar will gain an additional U.S. battalion and Afghan National Army unit that will each serve under its command by the new year, said Brig. Gen. Frederick Hodges, director of operations for NATO's southern command."
From the Afghans will win thread post #16
Yeah, he's our little puppet in Kabul. If any major warlord(s) were to turn against him or if he were to lose favor from the White House and/or the Pentagon << POOF >> goodby Karzai!
Well IMV, people brushed past this little statement in pretty quickly, and apparently overlooked the implications....
Suncor/Sunoco, is the largest company in the Tar Sands
Is he our little puppet in Kabul, or are we the Canadian taxpayer his little puppets in financing Sunoco's expansion into Afghanistan, and we are losing young Canadians for HIS and Suncor interests...
Very good point, remind.
We are all big oil's/big businesses' puppets - including Bush, Cheney and Obama.
I have notice that Mr. Layton and the NDP have not commented on Mr. Obama's new Afghan campaign plan and 30,000 troop surge into Afghanistan.
Where is the outrage, the protests, and press statements on their websites?
Obama is placing a large number of American soldiers under Canadian Command shortly, depending on the news source as much as a complete American Brigade will be under TFK command and control.
I am not truly surprised that only the VP talked / or will talk to Harper. Obama's plan has known for a while.
NATO changes Canadian area of responsibility in Kandahar
"Task Force Kandahar will gain an additional U.S. battalion and Afghan National Army unit that will each serve under its command by the new year, said Brig. Gen. Frederick Hodges, director of operations for NATO's southern command."
This filled me with a bit of pride.
I'm asking myself though. Is this an attempt by the US to try and play on our pride and try to getus to stay?
I have notice that Mr. Layton and the NDP have not commented on Mr. Obama's new Afghan campaign plan and 30,000 troop surge into Afghanistan.
Where is the outrage, the protests, and press statements on their websites?
Good question. Answer: doesn't exist.
The "retired General" was twisting his hands while he was stating that the USA only trusts us, on the news intervire last night, and giving obvious indications of his disengenuousness.
The NDP motion calling for public inquiry into transfer of prisoners in Afghanistan was passed in the House of Commons last night.
Will the Cons respect it?
Or will they have to be taken to court over it?
Seeing as how the new USA surge was just announced last night, after the NDP had been pushing for an inquiry and devoting their attention to do that, it would seem that "concern" over a lack of statement before lunch the next day, is a bit misplaced, or over eager.
What is the war doing to our soldiers?
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/12/02/12011906.html
I have notice that Mr. Layton and the NDP have not commented on Mr. Obama's new Afghan campaign plan and 30,000 troop surge into Afghanistan.
Where is the outrage, the protests, and press statements on their websites?
Is the NDP going all pro-Uncle Sam and pro-war again? I had a hunch that it was true.
Obama is placing a large number of American soldiers under Canadian Command shortly, depending on the news source as much as a complete American Brigade will be under TFK command and control.
I am not truly surprised that only the VP talked / or will talk to Harper. Obama's plan has known for a while.
NATO changes Canadian area of responsibility in Kandahar
"Task Force Kandahar will gain an additional U.S. battalion and Afghan National Army unit that will each serve under its command by the new year, said Brig. Gen. Frederick Hodges, director of operations for NATO's southern command."
Ask yourself this: Who has killed the highest number of Afghan civilians and who has committed the most number of human rights atrocities in Afghanistan since October 2001?
The U.S.A. The closer the Canadian military associates with the American military, the greater the risk Canada runs of committing yet more human rights atrocities and war crimes. Isn't the transferring of Afghan PoWs and their subsequent torture by Afghan authorities and the incidents where Canadian troops killed Afghan civilians enough?
Let's get out NOW, I say.
Well I must say that the Americanos playing on our pride to get us to stay thing is somewhat encouraging. Because if true, then it means the powermongers still care about what ordinary people think in general. I was under the impression that they do not care enough for it to matter one way or the other.
Canada Must Withdraw Troops From Afghanistan Immediately
I'm reproducing ousted Afghan MP Malalai Joya's statement in its entirety as it is a clear & powerful statement as published today in "The Bullet".
On behalf of the suffering people of Afghanistan, I offer my condolences to the families here who have lost their loved ones. I believe these fallen soldiers, themselves, are the victims of the wrong policy of your government. The families of Afghan civilians killed in this war share your feelings of loss. If we turn these sorrows into strength, we can end this war. Bringing the troops home at the end of 2011 is too late; the troops should be withdrawn as soon as possible, before more Afghan and Canadian lives are needlessly lost.
Today, it has become an open secret that the Canadian government of Stephen Harper has been complicit in the torture of countless innocent Afghans. This is just one reason people in Kandahar and across my country are tired of this war.
It is clear now that the real motive of the U.S. and its allies, hidden behind the so-called “war on terror,” was to convert Afghanistan into a military base in Central Asia and the capital of the world’s opium drug trade. Ordinary Afghan people are being used in this chess game, and western taxpayers’ money and the blood of soldiers is being wasted on this agenda that will only further destabilize the region.
The recent so-called election in Afghanistan tells you all you need to know about what kind of “democracy” has been imposed by the occupation. It is ridiculous to Afghans that the Harper government and Defence Minister Peter MacKay have called this process a “successful election.”
Even the cats of Afghanistan laugh at this kind of statement, because everyone knows that this was the most fraudulent election possible. Before the vote, people on the streets predicted the outcome with a proverb, “It will be the same donkey with a new saddle.” In the end, in fact, we have seen that even the saddle – Karzai – is not new.
Now that Hamid Karzai has been inaugurated again, the nature of his government is more obvious than ever. Both of his new vice-president, Fahim and Khalili, are warlords with the blood of innocents on their hands. In Kandahar, where Canadian troops have been stationed for years, Karzai's brother is reported to be involved in drug trafficking, and the New York Timesrecently reported that he’s been receiving regular payments from the U.S. CIA.
So do not be deceived by talk of Karzai cleaning up corruption. His appointment of a new anticorruption team is a case of the rabbit being put in charge of the carrots.
Torture, drug trafficking, the continued rule of warlords and fundamentalists – these are the only things that this war has brought Afghans. Today, our people are being vicitimized by two enemies: the occupation forces bombing us from the sky, and the warlords and their Taliban brothers-in-creed.
If the troops withdraw, it will be easier for Afghans to fight one enemy and to determine our own future. It is the duty of the Afghan people to work for freedom and democracy; these values can never be donated to us by the very foreign powers who – after nearly three decades of funding various fundamentalists are arming warlords and other criminals – are responsible for many of the problems Afghanistan faces today.
While I am opposed to the policy of the Canadian government in Afghanistan, I have been very moved by the support of ordinary people across this country, from Victoria to Halifax. Having spoken to big public meetings in cities right across this country, it is clear that the Canadian people are fed up with their government’s policy in Afghanistan. Let's raise our voices together to end this unjust and devastating war.
Malalai Joya was the youngest woman elected to the Afghan Parliament in 2005. She has recently completed a cross-Canada book tour in support of her new political memoir, written with Vancouver writer and activist Derrick O'Keefe, A Woman Among Warlords: The Extraordinary Story of an Afghan Who Dared to Raise Her Voice.
What is the war doing to our soldiers?
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/12/02/12011906.html
The article never mentioned Afghanistan specifically I wonder why you put it in this thread?
Canadian soldiers [specifically officers] serve in something like up to 112 different countries in various capacities. Lots of them are classified as warzones.
I'm trying to understand the connection.
Maybe he even served in Afghanistan but then again the connection is very tangable considering the sexual abuse abundent in Afghanistan is grown men abusing adolecent teenage boys. Not step daughters. Unless you're just implying that serving in a warzone makes men sexually abuse their stepdaughters..
I don't have stats or anything off hand but I'm quite sure sexual abuse is a nation wide problem with abusers coming from all walks of life all types of jobs all colours of skin and both genders.
Obama is placing a large number of American soldiers under Canadian Command shortly, depending on the news source as much as a complete American Brigade will be under TFK command and control.
I am not truly surprised that only the VP talked / or will talk to Harper. Obama's plan has known for a while.
NATO changes Canadian area of responsibility in Kandahar
"Task Force Kandahar will gain an additional U.S. battalion and Afghan National Army unit that will each serve under its command by the new year, said Brig. Gen. Frederick Hodges, director of operations for NATO's southern command."
Ask yourself this: Who has killed the highest number of Afghan civilians and who has committed the most number of human rights atrocities in Afghanistan since October 2001?
The U.S.A. The closer the Canadian military associates with the American military, the greater the risk Canada runs of committing yet more human rights atrocities and war crimes. Isn't the transferring of Afghan PoWs and their subsequent torture by Afghan authorities and the incidents where Canadian troops killed Afghan civilians enough?
Let's get out NOW, I say.
Who has since 2001? Why just 2001?
No doubt you mean the U.S.A.
I think the Taliban would give the US a good run for their money. Both have done shitty things from missle strikes taking out villages to killing villagers for working with NATO.
What pisses me of fthe most is that we fucking knew prisoners were getting tourtured and killed and for some reason people thought they could shut shit like that up and no one find out. It's wrong and when the guys at the sharp end of the stick started saying HEY problem here! It should have stopped.
Maybe the reason we didn't make a canadian detention cell or jail was because Canada was afraid of looking like the US with Gitmo bay etc.. etc.. and deal with all the BS and bad PR surrounding that.
Canada Must Withdraw Troops From Afghanistan Immediately
I'm reproducing ousted Afghan MP Malalai Joya's statement in its entirety as it is a clear & powerful statement as published today in "The Bullet".
On behalf of the suffering people of Afghanistan, I offer my condolences to the families here who have lost their loved ones. I believe these fallen soldiers, themselves, are the victims of the wrong policy of your government. The families of Afghan civilians killed in this war share your feelings of loss. If we turn these sorrows into strength, we can end this war. Bringing the troops home at the end of 2011 is too late; the troops should be withdrawn as soon as possible, before more Afghan and Canadian lives are needlessly lost.
Today, it has become an open secret that the Canadian government of Stephen Harper has been complicit in the torture of countless innocent Afghans. This is just one reason people in Kandahar and across my country are tired of this war.
It is clear now that the real motive of the U.S. and its allies, hidden behind the so-called “war on terror,” was to convert Afghanistan into a military base in Central Asia and the capital of the world’s opium drug trade. Ordinary Afghan people are being used in this chess game, and western taxpayers’ money and the blood of soldiers is being wasted on this agenda that will only further destabilize the region.
The recent so-called election in Afghanistan tells you all you need to know about what kind of “democracy” has been imposed by the occupation. It is ridiculous to Afghans that the Harper government and Defence Minister Peter MacKay have called this process a “successful election.”
Even the cats of Afghanistan laugh at this kind of statement, because everyone knows that this was the most fraudulent election possible. Before the vote, people on the streets predicted the outcome with a proverb, “It will be the same donkey with a new saddle.” In the end, in fact, we have seen that even the saddle – Karzai – is not new.
Now that Hamid Karzai has been inaugurated again, the nature of his government is more obvious than ever. Both of his new vice-president, Fahim and Khalili, are warlords with the blood of innocents on their hands. In Kandahar, where Canadian troops have been stationed for years, Karzai's brother is reported to be involved in drug trafficking, and the New York Timesrecently reported that he’s been receiving regular payments from the U.S. CIA.
So do not be deceived by talk of Karzai cleaning up corruption. His appointment of a new anticorruption team is a case of the rabbit being put in charge of the carrots.
Torture, drug trafficking, the continued rule of warlords and fundamentalists – these are the only things that this war has brought Afghans. Today, our people are being vicitimized by two enemies: the occupation forces bombing us from the sky, and the warlords and their Taliban brothers-in-creed.
If the troops withdraw, it will be easier for Afghans to fight one enemy and to determine our own future. It is the duty of the Afghan people to work for freedom and democracy; these values can never be donated to us by the very foreign powers who – after nearly three decades of funding various fundamentalists are arming warlords and other criminals – are responsible for many of the problems Afghanistan faces today.
While I am opposed to the policy of the Canadian government in Afghanistan, I have been very moved by the support of ordinary people across this country, from Victoria to Halifax. Having spoken to big public meetings in cities right across this country, it is clear that the Canadian people are fed up with their government’s policy in Afghanistan. Let's raise our voices together to end this unjust and devastating war.
Malalai Joya was the youngest woman elected to the Afghan Parliament in 2005. She has recently completed a cross-Canada book tour in support of her new political memoir, written with Vancouver writer and activist Derrick O'Keefe, A Woman Among Warlords: The Extraordinary Story of an Afghan Who Dared to Raise Her Voice.
I'd like to see everyone out of Afghanistan and them left alone.
Malalai Joya has been threatened with her life countless times by all of Karzai's warlords and Taliban in recent years. She says the USA's former proxies in Kabul from 1996 to 2001, the Taliban, are brothers in creed with the pro-Mujahideen Karzai and his government of warlords. It makes little difference to basic human rights whether the formerly US-backed Taliban are in power or the current US proxies. In fact, Malalai Joya says this is a "war on terror drama", and that the US Military is merely using the Taliban as an excuse to occupy Afghanistan and buildup troops in that part of the world for geostrategic reasons of waging colder war against larger Asian countries nearby. The US was entirely unconcerned about basic human rights abuses during the brutal reign of the repressive Taliban regime they propped-up in Kabul during the 1990's.
I even recall the Taliban making a trip to Texas to visit the Governor of the day - George W. Bush - to discuss a pipeline.
What pisses me off the most is that we fucking knew prisoners were getting tourtured and killed and for some reason people thought they could shut shit like that up and no one find out. It's wrong and when the guys at the sharp end of the stick started saying HEY problem here! It should have stopped. Maybe the reason we didn't make a canadian detention cell or jail was because Canada was afraid of looking like the US with Gitmo bay etc.. etc.. and deal with all the BS and bad PR surrounding that.
The reason why the Chretien administration at the time decided not to have Canadian internment camps for Afghan prisoners was that neither Chretien nor Martin expected or wanted Canadian troops to stay for long in Afghanistan. Constructing permanent buildings like barracks and prisons (like the U.S.) sends out the message that we intended to stay.
From early 2002 to late 2005, Canadians transferred Afghan PoWs to American forces. Then the abuse at Abu Ghraib, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba broke. So yes, the Canadian government did not want to be responsible for transferring Afghan PoWs to people where they would be later tortured. Yes, the policy changed to transferring PoWs to Afghan authorities. Martin had drawn up a PoW transfer treaty that had safeguards and monitoring provisions in it in late 2005. In early 2006, there was a federal election. In late 2005, Gen. Rick Hillier signed a treaty of his own with the Karzai government that did not have the safeguard provisions.
I said that previous governments neither wanted nor expected troops to remain in Afghanistan for long. That is, until the Harper administration. Harper assumed office in early 2006. Shortly, he went to Afghanistan. For about a year and a half, he allowed the "Hillier treaty" to remain in place. He has since introduced, and the House has passed, two war resolutions that escalated Canada's military engagement in Afghanistan until at least mid 2011(?)
Who should have known that transferring detainees to a party where it was known or suspected that they would be tortured, is a war crime?
Certainly, the responsibility is shared by Gen. Rick Hillier and the Harper administration. Hillier should know about the Geneva Conventions. For him not to would definitely be criminal.
Harper's, MacKay's and the top General(s)' (in Ottawa) actions expose their Nixonian criminal amorality. Did they try to cover this up? Yes, after the story got out in the media.
At the time, their attitude was one of "let's get rid of the detainees by handing them over to the Afghan authorities. Once they are no longer on our hands, they are no longer our (legal) problem."
This shows an ignorance of or apathy toward the Geneva Conventions that now has (or ought to have) the civilian and military leaders involved in a good deal of (legal) trouble.
Thanks for the article polunatic, and it is great to see the NDP pushing the torture issue...
Malalai Joya says Taliban and Karzai's fundamentalists are all the same. So if it doesn't really matter who wins this "war", then why not negotiate a ceasefire and peace sooner rather than later? How many innocent lives could be saved with negotiated peace now rather than some time down the road when either of the greater evols wins this phony war, or worse, when they continue fighting to a stalemate as a guise for perpetuating the US-led military occupation?
We need real leaders in Ottawa for a change, and it's just one more reason why I am voting NDP.
You mean to frmrsldr's quote, or to one that says Karzi is a shareholder in Sunoco?
The former is at the first red letter link and then it is post # 16, here is the permalink
or the latter?
Personally am prepared to accept frmsldr's statement as fact. Did not even bother to google it....
Ya, was referring to frmrsldr's claim about Karzai. Was just hoping I could find a direct link and wasn't able to with google either.
Ya, was referring to frmrsldr's claim about Karzai. Was just hoping I could find a direct link and wasn't able to with google either.
Sorry. Where the problem arises is I gave the incorrect oil company. The correct company is Unocal. I've since corrected my original post.
Here's a link that talks about Karzai's connection with Unocal and Unocal and the U.S. government's connections to (the war in) Afghanistan:
http://www.freepress.org/journal.php?strFunc=display&strlD=54&strJournal...
Click on "Enron played key role in events presaging war."
Also see Michael Moore's DVD Fahrenheit 9/11
Fast exit urged from Afghanistan
For him, the only possible hope for the country is for neighboring countries such as Pakistan, Iran, China and Russia to help sustain and rebuild. What is required "is a regional solution which would be much better than what is going on today," he said. And, he said, "China, they've got the cash to rebuild the country."
If the United States wants to send troops, he said, it would require up to 250,000 troops. But that will also mean 750,000 deaths.
Ali said war is also spilling over into Pakistan and further destabilizing that country. He talked about Graham E. Fuller, the former CIA station chief in Kabul and a former vice chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence Council and his assessment that the presence of the United States "is part of the problem, not the solution."
No country likes to be occupied, Ali said. "It doesn't work. It's not going to work this time."
"Regional solution" Apparently the CIA and "North Atlantic" countries aren't considered regional on that side of the planet.
Harper not on Obama's Afghan call list
Prime Minister Stephen Harper will not be among the world leaders briefed personally by U.S. President Barack Obama about his plans for a new strategy in Afghanistan.
Obama will contact a number of leaders, including those of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, China and Russia. But despite Canada's lengthy military commitment to the troubled region, Vice-President Joe Biden has been given the task of relaying the president’s plans to Harper.
This is shocking. After all we've done. What a disgrace. Perhaps we should do a "surge" of our own, to get back in this progressive peace-making President's good books?
After an opening post that holds some promise, you assume your default position. How does one reply? A serious response to your opening post - as straight man fodder for your self-loathing Canadian schtick or, a reactionary response to your schtick?
Its difficult to take you seriously when you use a serious subject for your personal vanity.
Too funny. If Canada would have been on Obamas personal call list you would have been complaing and griping about that wishing it was the vice prez who called haper lol
I think you missed the sarcasm lol
Sarcasm is a refuge for those with nothing to say.
Fast exit urged from Afghanistan
For him, the only possible hope for the country is for neighboring countries such as Pakistan, Iran, China and Russia to help sustain and rebuild. What is required "is a regional solution which would be much better than what is going on today," he said. And, he said, "China, they've got the cash to rebuild the country."
If the United States wants to send troops, he said, it would require up to 250,000 troops. But that will also mean 750,000 deaths.
Ali said war is also spilling over into Pakistan and further destabilizing that country. He talked about Graham E. Fuller, the former CIA station chief in Kabul and a former vice chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence Council and his assessment that the presence of the United States "is part of the problem, not the solution."
No country likes to be occupied, Ali said. "It doesn't work. It's not going to work this time."
"Regional solution" Apparently the CIA and "North Atlantic" countries aren't considered regional on that side of the planet.
Fidel, do you believe Pakistan, Iran, China and Russia soldiers and reconstruction efforts will make a difference, that these soldiers will be anymore welcomed in Afghanistan tha Western soldiers?
5
From the Afghans will win thread post #16
Yeah, he's our little puppet in Kabul. If any major warlord(s) were to turn against him or if he were to lose favor from the White House and/or the Pentagon << POOF >> goodby Karzai!
Well IMV, people brushed past this little statement in pretty quickly, and apparently overlooked the implications....
Suncor/Sunoco, is the largest company in the Tar Sands
Is he our little puppet in Kabul, or are we the Canadian taxpayer his little puppets in financing Sunoco's expansion into Afghanistan, and we are losing young Canadians for HIS and Suncor interests...
Obama is placing a large number of American soldiers under Canadian Command shortly, depending on the news source as much as a complete American Brigade will be under TFK command and control.
I am not truly surprised that only the VP talked / or will talk to Harper. Obama's plan has known for a while.
NATO changes Canadian area of responsibility in Kandahar
"Task Force Kandahar will gain an additional U.S. battalion and Afghan National Army unit that will each serve under its command by the new year, said Brig. Gen. Frederick Hodges, director of operations for NATO's southern command."
Ask yourself this: Who has killed the highest number of Afghan civilians and who has committed the most number of human rights atrocities in Afghanistan since October 2001?
The U.S.A. The closer the Canadian military associates with the American military, the greater the risk Canada runs of committing yet more human rights atrocities and war crimes. Isn't the transferring of Afghan PoWs and their subsequent torture by Afghan authorities and the incidents where Canadian troops killed Afghan civilians enough?
Let's get out NOW, I say.
The insidious nature of Canadian command of Us troops isn't the value Americans place on Canadian command ability but the value they place on Canadian command being suborned to US kinetic warfare doctrine.
It isn't that they trust Canadian abilities but that they consider Canadian command structures as American. The integration of Canadian officers like Rick Hillier as deputy commanders of bases such as Ft. Hood has cemented Canadian generals as American military stooges. Their alliegiance is not to the Canadian people and the Canadian defense strategy but to the American kinetic warfare model and American kit.
Americans are not entrusting US troops to Canada, they just consider the Canadian military their own.
Fidel, do you believe Pakistan, Iran, China and Russia soldiers and reconstruction efforts will make a difference, that these soldiers will be anymore welcomed in Afghanistan tha Western soldiers?
No I don't think the solution is a military one at all and I know FrmrSldr and other babblers would agree with that. This is a proxy war as was the 1980's proxy war. And when the Soviets pulled out in 1989, the CIA then bypassed Zia and ISI and began funding warlords and druglords directly.
And this is another proxy war. Jerry West posted several good articles describing which countries are involved with either funding or arming the Taliban or both. The point that should be driven home for people is that none of the surrounding countries except for the pro-USA elite in Pakistan want NATO there in their backyards. And it is their backyard not NATO's. There are more countries involved in this colder war dustup in Central Asia, and that is why is requires a regional solution as Tariq Ali, the NDP etc have suggested. This is a phony war on terror. The Yanks and Brits don't care about women's or anyone's rights in Afghanistan or any country for that matter. They are using the Taliban as an excuse to be there militarily(Tariq Ali, NDP, Malalai Joya etc). And it's not the Russians or Chinese or even the evol North Koreans threatening to bomb Iran today. Guess who is.
The Yanks and Brits have deliberately destabilized a number of countries since 1991. And they've had a toe-hold on Afghanistan for 30 years to-date and don't seem to be letting go. NATO is a cold war leftover and should be disbanded. For now, there needs to be a "regional" solution, meaning an end to the colder war bs in Central Asia, Africa etc.
Americans are not entrusting US troops to Canada, they just consider the Canadian military their own.
Absolutely.
And when at the House inquiry into the Afghan detainee transfer and subsequent torture affair, Hillier made the argument that the "Taliban" were "caught red handed" defending their country by fighting against Canadian troops (my description), that was his "substantiated evidence" of:
1. They were "Taliban".
2. "Taliban"="terrorists"="Illegal Enemy Combatants".
3. They are not protected by the Geneva Conventions.
4. They are not even human beings (remember his "The Taliban are despicable murderous scumbags" quote) and therefore do not have human rights.
5. In Hillier's opinion, if our transferred PoWs were tortured by Afghan authorities, they "deserved" it.
It was White House lawyers and some U.S. Supreme Court Justices, along with VP Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld who came up with the infamous "Torture Memo" where the U.S. tries to, in a legalistic manner, get around the Geneva Conventions.
That is the U.S.A., not Canada. Canada is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions (as is the U.S.A.) Canada has no such "Torture Memo".
The fact that Hillier acted as if he was operating under the "Torture Memo" shows how much he, and the rest of Canada's high ranking officers are indoctrinated by U.S. military thinking, policy and procedure.
The Great Game: U.S., NATO War In Afghanistan Fifty or more countries in a single war theater
The war is not really about Afghanistan. It's about the Pashtun people straddling Pakistan's border.
It's supposed to be about capturing or killing their former cold war helpers, bin Laden and company. Benazir Bhutto and Zardari both said bin Laden was murdered some time ago. They've been experimenting with campaign slogans other than the "war on terror" lately as more and more people are on to them.
Who Wants War? Ron Paul
And our lap doggies in Ottawa continue to do tricks and rollover for belly rubs from Uncle Sam.
1. The position of the various political parties on the Afghanistan situation.
The NDP had a position of immediate withdrawal but then jettisoned that position for the sake of the Coalition.
And now spindoctor Brian Topp is trying to tell us that the NDP is on the same page as Obama
Instead, the Harper government is contributing nothing to finding peace in that country. And as I write there is, disturbingly, much to learn about the fate of enemy combatants who surrendered to our country, on Mr. Harper’s watch, in the course of the tragic conflict in Afghanistan.
I don't like Harper any more than anyone else here, but why is his position on Afghanistan any worse than Obama's?
Afghanistan not be able to pay for its own security until at least 2024 - Hamid "I'm just one of your corrupt anticommunist jihadis from the 1980s" Karzai
so they want 13 more years of Canadian tax payer's dollars
Every good con needs a mark. In this case, it's the taxpayers as usual.
Canada Preparing A Military Role in Afghanistan Beyond 2011, Say Experts
http://canada.com/news/Canada+preparing+military+role+Afghanistan+beyond...
Canada Preparing A Military Role in Afghanistan Beyond 2011, Say Experts
http://canada.com/news/Canada+preparing+military+role+Afghanistan+beyond...
Two messages on departure date. More from the Ottawa Citizen article:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Canadian+soldiers+Afghanistan+messages...
Weasels, at best....
“This seems to support the idea that we will be staying on with a military mission,” said Sens, an analyst with the University of British Columbia. “I was always under the impression we would continue with some kind of military presence such as JTF2 ( the military’s elite force), PRT assets and a headquarters battlegroup.”
He acknowledged, however, the public would not have been left with that impression because of Harper’s statements that the military mission was finishing in 2011.
According to the U.S. army, Telford Aviation in Bangor, Maine, was awarded the contract to install the surveillance systems on the two King Air 300 commercial aircraft provided by Canada. The bulk of the installation on the small propeller-driven aircraft would be done in the U.S. but about one-quarter of the work would be in Afghanistan, it noted. The contract was a sole-source deal.
The Defence Department could not comment on the U.S. Army release of information.
The Geopolitics behind the phoney US war in Afghanistan
Why the USA(and therefore Canada, too) is occupying Afghanistan militarily.
Project Ploughshares
The Canadian Council of Churches: Canada's Role in Afghanistan
In the context of your announcement that Canada intends to end its current military engagement in 2011, we humbly offer these reflections, analyses and recommendations regarding Canada's possible contributions to a sustainable and just peace in Afghanistan.
We encourage Canada to focus on two priorities:
1. to encourage the international community to give significant new attention to diplomatic efforts to end the war, and
2. to support Afghans in implementing participatory reconciliation programs and responsive governance at district and local levels.
We acknowledge the important responsibility in leading Canada's contribution to peace in Afghanistan. We shall continue to hold you and your government in prayer, as we hold the people of Afghanistan and the region in prayer.
We shall continue to hold you and your government in prayer, as we hold the people of Afghanistan and the region in prayer.
I dunno. Personally, I think those bigotted, holier-than-thou, self-righteous hypocrites on Capitol Hill are beyond redemption. The only thing that can save us from them is to kick them out of office - democratically (of course).
Project Ploughshares
The Canadian Council of Churches: Canada's Role in Afghanistan
...enourage Canada to focus on two priorities:
1. to encourage the international community to give significant new attention to diplomatic efforts to end the war, and...
As they say, diplomacy is for diplomats. And these low lifes in Ottawa, our quislings in power and phony opposition would never agree to it. They have their colonial administrative tasks all laid out for them by Warshington, and they'll be adhering to their US instructions through thick and thin.
#56 "The NDP is on the same page as Obama" or 'learning from the best' as Brad Lavigne might put it...
Yes? No? Where are the usual my-ndp-right-or-wrong attack dogs?
Here's something by John Pilger to mull over which applies as much to the marquess of queensbury parliamentary discussions about treatment of 'detainees' as it does to the Chilcot inquiry into Iraq:
"the purpose of the Chilcot inquiry is to normalise an epic crime by providing enough of a theatre of guilt to satisfy the media so that the only issue that matters, that of prosecution, is never raised...Like Iraq, Afghanistan is a crime period."
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16476
We encourage Canada to focus on two priorities:
1. to encourage the international community to give significant new attention to diplomatic efforts to end the war, and
One of the best ways to end the war is to leave. That is what we should be encouraging.
Every citizen of a NATO country as well as Afghans themselves have a right to know who is dealing on their behalfs and what the issues are. And this includes the citizens of the long-time US-backed military dictatorship of Pakistan deeply involved with destabilizing Afghanistan since the 1980's, as well as surrounding countries affected by the CIA's and British and even Canadian involvement in drugs and weapons trafficking and associated violence spilling over the borders to nearby stani nations, Russia, Iran etc. People have to be informed that this is not a real war on terror and exposed for what it actually is - which is colder war nonsense with NATO expansionist policies into the heart of Asia. It's not about liberating women in Afghanistan, and it is not about cleaning the CIA's Islamic gladios out of Central Asia.
The US military-CIA's ongoing "global war on terror" narrative is complete bullshit. And the true anti-war leftwing movement must attack this lie for what it is. We have two general sides to this phony war, and neither one of them is worth a pinch of shit. So what does it matter who wins a long and dragged out phony war later, or whether they lay down their weapons sooner, share power, and stop the killing of innocent Afghans ASAP? The CIA and US military have been destabilizing Afghanistan for the last 30 years, and it won't be stopped until transparent peace negotiations occur with UN mediation. This is what Afghan warlords in political opposition to Karzai themselves have said is needed as well as several prominent leftists there in Asia as well as here in North America.
#56 "The NDP is on the same page as Obama" or 'learning from the best' as Brad Lavigne might put it...
Yes? No? Where are the usual my-ndp-right-or-wrong attack dogs?
You've pulled quotes from someone and neglected to provide any sources for people to decide whether they relate to what you're implying they do, or if you've simply used them completely out of context for whatever reasons of your own. Is that being an attack dog, or is one of us just full of baloney?
Yes there are two prominent political parties in Ottawa who should really be the ones on the defensive regarding their direct roles in plunging Canada ever deeper into this US-led quagmire in Central Asia, so far away from Canada's borders and so close to the borders of Uncle Sam's previous cold war enemies. hint-hint
Reference post #64
The text from that post is not mine. Those words are from Project Ploughshares organization.
Pullout from Afghanistan to cost hundreds of millions of dollars
And here I mistook you for a bible thumper, Webgear. ProjectPloughShares sent a letter to the Liberals after 9/11/01:
It seems that the Church people were also sucked-in to supporting the American inquisition's tale of an unseen outside enemy. They still have no proof that their former cold war ally, Osama bin Laden, had anything to do with 9/11. In fact, the recipient of more billion dollar US taxpayer-CIA-ISI funding in the 1980's than any other of the fundamentalist whackos friendly with the CIA, ISI, and Saudis, Gulbby Hekmatyar, says that 9/11 was planned in Europe and America and hijackers all trained in terrorism on US soil. So why are blood-for-oil hounds in Afghanistan and Iraq? It makes no logical sense.
Of course, a majority of Americans now believe that the dubya administration lied constantly to the public about 9/11 - whereas two-thirds of Canadians still believe the Yanqui bullshit at the centre of why our troops are fighting a phony war on terror on the other side of the world.
Fidel, I am a pagan. I believe in the old gods.
Not all "the Church people" were sucked in -- most of the those I associate with are opposed and have always been opposed. One I know rather well wrote to his sitting MP within 2 weeks of 9/11 urging that MP to oppose sending our military into war. Although we didn't officially enter into the Iraq war (I know we were there in all kinds of ways), the writing was on the wall, and yet, many of those "Church people" I know were totally opposed.
And, Webgear, I don't know why you're all over the NDP for what they haven't had any real power over in respect to Canada's military, especially regarding Afghanistan. Both the Conservatives, as the government, and the Liberals, as the former governing party and now the Official Opposition, have a hell of a lot more responsibility around what's going on there. Why try to hang some of the sh*t that's hitting the fan on the party with the fewest seats in the House? I find that to be bizarre. The Conserative-Liberal coalition calls most of the shots and has done for quite some time (with a few exceptions).
Not all "the Church people" were sucked in -- most of the those I associate with are opposed and have always been opposed. One I know rather well wrote to his sitting MP within 2 weeks of 9/11 urging that MP to oppose sending our military into war.
That's good to know, Loretta. I'm sorry for painting all Church people like that. I think very many countries' leaders were "sucked in" by the US military inquisition concerning 9/11. I don't know anybody who wasn't sympathetic with the US and other countries for their losses on 9/11. Most of the English speaking countries and France - countries without advanced proportional voting - are the ones who donated troops to aggressive US-style combat roles in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Other NATO countries gave the US lesser commitments and donated their troops to peacekeeping, reconstruction, and other support roles and without long-term commitments. Our governments continue to string us along as to when troops will be withdrawn. I think it depends entirely on decisions made in Washington D.C., and whether Bay Street can manage to buy a phony-majority for their hirelings of the day in Ottawa.
Pullout from Afghanistan to cost hundreds of millions of dollars
Staying in Afghanistan will cost hundreds of millions of dollars plus Canadian and Afghan lives and casualties.
What a bullshit argument to make for staying/not pulling out.
I did not make an argument for staying; I just reported the cost as reported in the article.
Nowhere in the article does it make the point of staying in Afghanistan due to the cost of withdrawing.
Did you even read the article?
I did not make an argument for staying; I just reported the cost as reported in the article.
Nowhere in the article does it make the point of staying in Afghanistan due to the cost of withdrawing.
Did you even read the article?
No, I did not read the article. Who cares about the cost of withdrawing? It's going to be an expense some time because we will inevitably withdraw from Afghanistan some time anyway.
This begs a number of questions:
If it's not an argument for staying, then why did the article bother to talk about the cost of withdrawing?
If you're not making an argument for staying, then why did you bother posting the address for the article?
Why does the article concentrate on the cost of withdrawing while ignoring the elephant in the room concerning the much greater cost of prosecuting the war? If the article is meant to support Gen. Natyczyk's general order to get the paperwork and the plans started for withdrawal, then why didn't it concentrate on the logistics of withdrawal to explain why it's necessary to get the paperwork started now?
The thread is about Canada and Afghanistan, I am posting articles that deal with the subject, that is why I posted the article.
If you did not read the article why did you reply back to my comment?
Its crappy journalism, just like 99% reporters out there the person that wrote this article did not do any research on the subject, nor does he understand military logistics.
Were you ever an Officer in your career?
The goverment's Afghan progress reports gushed about the Dala dam as another example of the "good" we're doing in Afghanistan. We have until 2011 to complete work on this dam project. Do you think we will be successful? It would be instructive to look at another dam reconstruction effort started by the British - the Kajaki dam - in Helmand province:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/13/afghanistan-turbine-taliban-...
The goverment's Afghan progress reports gushed about the Dala dam as another example of the "good" we're doing in Afghanistan. We have until 2011 to complete work on this dam project. Do you think we will be successful? It would be instructive to look at another dam reconstruction effort started by the British - the Kajaki dam - in Helmand province:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/13/afghanistan-turbine-taliban-...
How can I help you? I have a PhD in Organic Chemistry.
Don't pass me by.
Clean up the internet now.
Do something about Afghanistan.
Outta here.
The thread is about Canada and Afghanistan, I am posting articles that deal with the subject, that is why I posted the article.
If you did not read the article why did you reply back to my comment?
Its crappy journalism, just like 99% reporters out there the person that wrote this article did not do any research on the subject, nor does he understand military logistics.
Were you ever an Officer in your career?
When one blogs here, one is usually making an argument. The argument the article was making was about the cost of withdrawing. My reaction was, the spotlight is put on the cost of withdrawing which is dwarfed by the total cost of prosecuting the war. The emphasis is on the cost of withdrawing and not on the money that will be saved after we have disengaged from the war? What ridiculous nonsense.
The good articles on Afghanistan are written by unembedded journalists (like Graem Smith of the Globe and Mail).
The crappy articles on Afghanistan are written by embedded journalists (the majority) who are spoon fed their "information" by military "Information Officers" - go figure.
Well, I either was an officer or a Benjamin Franklin type who tries to learn as much as I can about as many things as I can.
The thread is about Canada and Afghanistan, I am posting articles that deal with the subject, that is why I posted the article.
If you did not read the article why did you reply back to my comment?
Its crappy journalism, just like 99% reporters out there the person that wrote this article did not do any research on the subject, nor does he understand military logistics.
Were you ever an Officer in your career?
When one blogs here, one is usually making an argument. The argument the article was making was about the cost of withdrawing. My reaction was, the spotlight is put on the cost of withdrawing which is dwarfed by the total cost of prosecuting the war. The emphasis is on the cost of withdrawing and not on the money that will be saved after we have disengaged from the war? What a ridiculous nonsense.
The good articles on Afghanistan are written by unembedded journalists (like Graem Smith of the Globe and Mail).
The crappy articles on Afghanistan are written by embedded journalists (the majority) who are spoon fed their "information" by military "Information Officers" - go figure.
Well, I either was an officer or a Benjamin Franklin type who tries to learn as much as I can about as many things as I can.
What?
Take it easy.
Everybody's got something to hide.
Canada 'Defended' Torturer
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/738404
"A former governor of Kandahar who is accused of personally torturing Afghans might have been removed from office as far back as 2006 if Canada's officials hadn't defended him.."
Canada: Afghan torture scandal deepens:
http://www.socialistvoice.ca/?p=854#more-854
"A political scandal of this character and scope should give a boost to any political party that opposes Canada's war in Afghanistan. Sadly, there is no such party in Parliament.."
I concur.
It's progressed far beyond sad, to downright disgraceful. In considering that the majority of public opinion against this war finds no support among any of our lackey representative factions in Parliament, outrage is the mildest expression that should confront this stooge-worthy collusion of self and corporate interests.
To Slumberjack's point: What really puzzles me is the Bloc's consistent refusal to call for immediate withdrawal of the troops, given that a far higher percentage of Quebeckers favours that stand than anywhere else in Canada, and given the supposed loyalty of the Bloc to the interests of Quebeckers. I think it's a combination of: (a) Gilles Duceppe's personal character flaw when it comes to foreign policy; and (b) some residual feeling of not pissing off the U.S. in case, to the Bloc's shock, Québec ever does accede to independence.
Whatever the reason, it shows the treachery of the Bloc's stand. To preach sovereigny for Quebeckers while participating in the denial of sovereignty of Afghans is to doom oneself to deserved failure, IMHO.
As for the NDP, well, enough has been said. It seems the disconnect between leadership and party activists (as exhibited by the 2006 convention on this point) may be irremediable.
Canada's troops investigated for Afghan abuse
The documents reveal that in 2008, military police launched six separate investigations into allegations of abuse involving Canadian troops.
"The military police determined that the allegations were unfounded in five of the six cases, and the remaining investigation is ongoing," said Major Paule Poulin, a spokesperson for the Canadian Forces Provost Marshall.
Ya I was disappointed, too, when Jack agreed to the aggressive, US-style combat role in Kandahar in 2005. Er, was that Martin and Manley? Because before that we were counting dead Canadian soldiers on one hand. Darn Liberal toadies anyway.
War in Afghanistan: Evolving Military Marriage between Canada and the US
The Canadian war contribution is so enmeshed with the U.S. that the relationship has been referred to by the media as "an evolving military marriage" between the two countries. The diplomatic representative of Canada in Kandahar, Ben Rowswell, told the National Post last week, "We work at full integration," adding, "We are cheek by jowl...The best way to integrate is to integrate completely."
In other words, our vicious toadies in Ottawa have been so far up Uncle Sam's derriere since 2005 that the Yanks have to pump air to them.
War in Afghanistan: Evolving Military Marriage Between Canada and USA
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16588
"July 2011 and beyond, no country will have been more closely integrated with US President Barack Obama and General Stanley McChrystal's counter insurgency war in Afghanistan than the Canadians..."
Expect more innocent Afghan civilan casualties, more torture and abuse of Afghan PoWs, more use of white phosphorus against Afghans and other war crimes and human rights atrocities at the hands of AmericaNadian troops.
General Court Martial proceedings will begin January 25, 2010, at the Asticou Centre in Gatineau, Québec, for Captain Robert Semrau in relation to the shooting death of a wounded insurgent that occurred in Afghanistan in October 2008.
All allegations of mistreatment of Afghan prisoners by Canadian troops investigated so far have been unfounded, the Canadian Forces Military Police said Monday night.
IED kills Canadian and Afghan soldiers in Afghanistan
"Lt. Andrew Richard Nuttall, along with an Afghan soldier, died when an improvised explosive device detonated in the town of Nakhoney, the military said early Thursday.....
The death was the first in almost two months, when Sapper Steven Marshall was killed, and the first since Menard took over as top commander in Kandahar province."Torture an internal problem for Afghanistan: Harper
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jJSPWlTdK_Yi842CPOnek...
End Of The Year: U.S. Recruits Worldwide For Afghan War
NATO troops from 50 countries are in Afghanistan to help NATO in its first test as a global military force. And Warshington still has produced no legal evidence or proof of Al-CIA'da terrorism on 9/11/01 - the alleged reason for why they are there and occupying Afghanistan militarily - marauding over the border into Pakistan, and now declaring sanctions against oil-rich Iran. Had the Soviets attempted to do similar with military invasions of two Central Asian countries simultaneously and Iraq in the 1980's, it would have been the start of WW III. Jack Layton and other lefties are absolutely right about the need for international diplomacy with UN mediation in this, what is mainly as US-led affair in Central Asia now going on 30 years of military operations and covert meddling since 1979.
All allegations of mistreatment of Afghan prisoners by Canadian troops investigated so far have been unfounded, the Canadian Forces Military Police said Monday night.
In a follow-up statement, the Canadian Forces Military Police ruled that all future allegations of mistreatment are unfounded as well.
Perhaps we could use this thread to discuss such issues as:
1. The position of the various political parties on the Afghanistan situation.
2. The evolving views of Canadians (as indicated by polls and otherwise).
3. How to influence public opinion on issues relating to the war/invasion.
All his allows both leaderships to abuse the term 'complete withdrawal', which for many Canadians means every soldier to the last person, when in point of fact they mean only a partial withdrawal of the bulk of Canadian troops from Afghanistan but complete withdrawal from offensive actions. It appears to be easy to attend peace rallies and use the term 'complete withdrawal' even though everyone knows it's not true. As the Green Party struggles to deal with its own history of being dedicated to peace vs. the new growth of the membership which involves those who embrace peacekeeping and peacemaking the debate becomes more complex. We have tried to be honest in policy position development to define that we mean withdrawal only from southern Afghanistan but that some soldiers would remain in another capacity. But there needs to be a more definitive debate, which is now ongoing within the party, on the meaning of the terms peacekeeping and peacemaking.
As the situation continues to worsen it gives a greater urgency for both the NDP and Greens to clearly define their positions. The Green Party convention is in 2010 and I will be advocating complete military disengagement.
The term 'immediate' withdrawal is also prone to abuse because it is deliberately vague. Yes you can withdraw two or three hundred soldiers from other parts of Afghanistan within months as other countries have. However withdrawing from active combat in southern Afghanistan when you are one of the leading countries in the offensive is not as simple. The article referred to by Webgear in an earlier post stated the truth that you can't actively fight while tearing down and withdrawing. The question about withdrawal by February 2009 always hinged on two key issues which were 1) serving unequivocal notice of that withdrawal to NATO allies 2) Having those allies take up the slack permitting a safe, controlled disengagement to happen. None of this happened after the motion in 2006 to disengage by February 2009. Official notice wasn't given in 2008 when the mission was extended to 2011 (and still hasn't been given) and is only partially able to proceed due to the recent commitment and shift in U.S. war strategy. At this point this could still take more than the year we have left in the established mandate. Without beginning the transition now will it be possible to accomplish this by the end of 2011 or will we be there until 2012/13 before disengagement is complete? This brings up the false 'political' trap of agreeing to a deadline as opposed to a vague (in reality) term of 'immediate' which intentionally gives the illusion that the process can be arbitrarily done within months. So the political dilemma seems to be one of saying immediate withdrawal and objecting to a deadline even though they both may mean the same thing in reality. One allows opponents to give the perception that the party endorses the war by agreeing to a deadline as opposed to using the term 'immediate' which gives its own deceptive perception. The Green Party leadership decided back in 2006 during the debate over the 2009 withdrawal deadline that this perception was not a valid reason not to endorse the deadline as opposed to what we perceived to be the deceptive use of 'immediate'. I think the NDP was caught in the political dilemma of being perceived to be endorsing the war by agreeing to any prescribed deadline. However the liberal betrayal of the deadline of Feb. 2009 changed this. The Green Party opposed the extension to 2011 and advocates immediate withdrawal by serving formal notice of disengagement in a responsible manner and beginning the process of transferring responsibilities to whichever NATO country takes the new lead (obviously the Americans now) and begin withdrawing Canadian combat troops as they are gradually relieved by other NATO forces. This will take whatever time it takes.
2. The evolving views of Canadians (as indicated by polls and otherwise).
3. How to influence public opinion on issues relating to the war/invasion.
Canadians still remain divided over Afghanistan and I don't think there is any real change other than battle fatigue. Changing opinion has less to do with the morality of the war, or war itself, than it does the perception that it simply won't end and appears not to be worth future effort. If the majority of Canadians were really that serious in opposing Afghanistan and wanting withdrawal then politicians wouldn't hesitate to make it an issue. The fact is that no trusts that this is either really the majority opinion or one that takes a higher position than other issues like the economy, taxes, public health and other domestic issues etc. The issue remains winning or losing rather than right or wrong. The propaganda surrounding the war fuels this perception. The false perception of the war is that it is being fought to 'free' Afghanistan and this has been discussed at length here on Babble. The more important dilemma that scares all politicians is the colossal lie that opposing the war is equivalent to opposing individual soldiers willing to die to defend the mission. Soldiers in Afghanistan aren't defending Canada or defending our way of life. They are fighting a foreign war. Individual soldiers are fighting with honest belief that they are defending Afghan civilians from oppression and a return of Taleban rule. The fact that the war is being fought for completely different reasons by governments has also been discussed at length here on Babble. The myth that Canada are the good guys and that our government can do no real harm in the name of Canadians has tremendous strength. This is the reason we are seeing people jump through hoops trying to define with semantic arguments whether Canadians actually tortured anyone, knew of explicit torture, or whether international obligations only applied to those specific prisoners captured and transferred by Canada. The myth of peacekeeping is tremendously strong. So long as you can argue that there is 'peacekeeping' to be done in the rest of the country then many people will 'feel' relieved that we are performing our 'traditional' role in the world even though that 'traditional' role in itself, militarily, is more myth than reality. No party leader so far has the courage to counter this myth publicly and certainly not during an election. I think very few politicians in general will openly challenge this. Yes they may challenge it at special roundtables or public discussions preaching to the choir but rarely to the general public.
Party discipline is used as an excuse by the liberals who engineered a terrible display during the debate and vote over the 2011 extension. Bill Siskay related his dismay that many MPs didn't even show up to the debate or abstained from voting. If what is being said in this discussion and others is true that there is a disconnect between the NDP leadership and the membership over Afghanistan then it remains to be asked whether all NDP MPs agree with this disconnect or are silent due to the same rule of discipline. At a certain point individual MPs need to stand up to their own party and clearly express their moral stance on the war. How many individual liberals and new democrats oppose their respective leaderships' obfuscation on the war or tacit support of it? Individual 'scandals' like the torture issue are not sustainable as individual fights. How many are willing to make Afghanistan a major issue in their individual candidacy races and/or re-election bids. How many actually talked about the war at length or connected it with other issues during the last three elections. How many will make it an issue in the next if it comes before 2011? There has to be a distinction between supporting soldiers and the military and respecting their willingness to fight and defend and opposing the reasons for a war and speaking out against the manipulations and propaganda surrounding the war. The myth has to be challenged and the propaganda arguments dismantled.
Both the NDP and Greens must present a clear, detailed vision of what their vision of a peacekeeping Canada would look like. Whether people here on the list agree with peacekeeping or not it has been embraced by the NDP and must take a prominent place in the election platform. The Greens believe we have presented a vision in our Vision Green document but it still needs more definition. It's not enough to say the words peacekeeping and peacemaking without clearly defining them and setting the conditions under which they will be applied.
I think the NDP is very clear on withdrawal of Canadians troops from combat. The fact that our Liberal government did not convey a clear message to parliament or the public about the sudden change in the role our troops would play in Afghanistan spoke volumes as to their pro-USA and pro-George W Bush stance on the phony war on terror then, and they continued to waffle on withdrawal dates but certainly not their pro-USA commitments to a US-led NATO incursion into Afghanistan and what is now a colder war military manouvering by the US on that side of the planet. In fact, the Liberals' Manley Report was a pack of lies and used by the Tories to justify more vicious toadying by Ottawa to Uncle Sam's colder war military agenda on the other side of the world. This has nothing to do with 9/11 as various leftists and even some on the political right in America have insisted. Newt Gingrich said that this is crazy George Bush's phony war on terror, and that America lacks a real plan to deal with looming fossil fuel scarcity in coming years.
And if there is one thing that can be gleaned from cold war history, it's that talks between cold war principals were more fruitful than not talking. Discussions and negotiations are a part of democracy. But negotiations and peace talks can only be considered democratic if they are made transparent to the public. And there have been ongoing discussions between the Taliban and their former handlers in the Pakistani ISI. the CIA, the British, and mediated by Saudis, who are also cold war allies of the west. Countries directly and indirectly involved in this continuation of cold war in Central Asia must be included in peace negotiations leading to an exit plan for NATO. And the militaries from 50 NATO countries will not be leaving Afghanistan until there is a negotiated peace for Afghanistan and Pakistan, and surrounding stani nations, Iran, Russia and China can provide guarantees that Afghanistan's sovereignty will be maintained.
Closing for length