Donald Trump & NAFTA

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Mighty Middle
Donald Trump & NAFTA

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Mighty Middle

Donald Trump wants to (in his words) rip up NAFTA and get a better deal for America.

rankandfile.ca wrote an op-ed titled "Let's Hate NAFTA Like We Used To"

http://rankandfile.ca/2016/07/12/lets_hate_nafta_like_we_used_to/

What are your thoughts about Trump wanting to rip up NAFTA? And what the NDP response should be.

josh
Rev Pesky

The Canadian government cannot prevent Trump from blowing up NAFTA if he wants to. What the existing government's, or indeed the NDP's, position should be is that they will bargain hard to preserve those items that benefit Canadian workers.

Worthwhile to remember though, that plenty of businesses in the USA will not want Trump to blow up NAFTA. I think it's one of those things he campaigned on that will quietly die off. A lot of US workers depend on the Canadian market for their jobs. According to a Canadian embassy (in Washington) study, over 7,000,000 USA workers depend on trade with Canada. In addition, one of the largest businesses, automobile manufacture, is completely integrated.

No, I think when saner heads prevail, the 'blowing up of NAFTA' will turn into a few tweaks of some items.

josh

Trade would continue with or without NAFTA.   Just as there was trade before NAFTA.

Mighty Middle

With Trump wanting to rip up NAFTA isn't it a good opportunity for the NDP to tap into the growing anti-globalization movement? Niki Ashton is already aligning herself with that faction saying

"You privatize it? We nationalize it. You deregulate it? We regulate it.”

It worked so well with Trump to tap into union workers in rust belt states. That is the NDP constituency.

So why not go the Trump route and say NAFTA needs to be ripped up. Especially now that Trudeau tapping Mulroney as a consultant in these renegotaion tactics.

bekayne

Mighty Middle wrote:

With Trump wanting to rip up NAFTA isn't it a good opportunity for the NDP to tap into the growing anti-globalization movement? Niki Ashton is already aligning herself with that faction saying

"You privatize it? We nationalize it. You deregulate it? We regulate it.”

It worked so well with Trump to tap into union workers in rust belt states. That is the NDP constituency.

So why not go the Trump route and say NAFTA needs to be ripped up. Especially now that Trudeau tapping Mulroney as a consultant in these renegotaion tactics.

Trump wants to regulate? On what planet?

Mighty Middle

bekayne wrote:

Trump wants to regulate? On what planet?

Trump wants to DEregulate. Ashton says she will REgulate

Meanwhile Tom Mulcair has weighed in

Mulcair questions Mulroney's mandate

NDP Leader Tom Mulcair said that turning to Mulroney shows the Liberals aren't serious about improving the North American Free Trade Agreement. 

Mulroney negotiated the original NAFTA between Canada, the United States and Mexico in the 1990s.

"Go to the communities in southwestern Ontario that have been hard-hit by NAFTA, and ask them whether they want the guy who wrote NAFTA talking to the Americans now," Mulcair said Wednesday morning. 

"What's [Mulroney's] position going to be other than to defend the deal that he put in place in the first place? It goes back to Justin Trudeau again. What is his position on NAFTA? He hasn't articulated one."

Mulcair also raised the question of whether Mulroney is being paid by the government. The Prime Minister's Office later said Mulroney is not being paid.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mulroney-cabinet-nafta-1.4056112

Maybe if Mulcair unleashed ANGRY Tom (in the 2015 election) and said he'd rip up NAFTA, he could have kept the Liberals to a minority in Election 2015.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Okay so he is not on the government books but did he bring an empty brown paper bag to the meeting?

bekayne

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Okay so he is not on the government books but did he bring an empty brown paper bag to the meeting?

He never leaves home without it.

josh

Mulroney?  Talk about being politically out of touch and tone deaf. 

josh

Not to be worried anymore.  Worst PM ever is riding to Canada's rescue.

http://ipolitics.ca/2017/04/06/former-pm-mulroney-back-on-parliament-hil...

 

josh

President Trump blasted Canada on Thursday over a trade dispute affecting dairy farmers, calling it a “disgrace” that’s the result of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

“What they’ve done to our dairy farm workers is a disgrace. It’s a disgrace,” Trump said Thursday, adding that NAFTA has been “a disaster for our country.” 

http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/329733-trump-nafta-changes-will-come-in-two-weeks#.WPjvm17ZIxI.twitter

 

 

NDPP

What Donald Trump's Anti-Canada Rant Means: Walkom

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2017/04/24/what-donald-trumps...

"Justin Trudeau's pandering hasn't worked. Trump has us in his NAFTA sights. NAFTA talks will be very, very tough..."

And we have a Global Affairs minister with a hidden Ukraine agenda, whose 'guru' is a crooked American bankster (Larry Summers) overseeing it all. Should be great!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Too bad that we didn't have a PM that could say go to hell if you want to restrict the border fill your boots.  At that point we would have the Governors of every border state pressuring the White House and they are almost all Red states. The northern US states need Canada every bit as much as Canada needs them. We are in a symbiotic relationship with the US because of geography and it is a two way street.

josh
kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

josh wrote:

20% tariff to be placed on softwood lumber.

http://ipolitics.ca/2017/04/24/u-s-planning-20-per-cent-softwood-lumber-...

The easy response is to ban the sale of raw logs into the states and watch the US sawmills scramble to find enough wood to keep running. The reality is that going cap in hand to the boss is never a good bargaining strategy even if they hold most of the cards.

NDPP

JT et al are going to sell us down the river bigtime. Just wait and see...

josh
alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Let that cotton candy headed buffoon bring in tariffs. If Canada had a spine,we'd say go ahead...and all the resources you rely on us for will be hit with a 30% tariff. The US relies on our vast resources. We rely on none of theirs. We can play this game as well. Wake up,Trudeau.

iyraste1313

A trade war brings up the question of political party response....willthe status quoers just learn to accept this as divine will, absorbing the losses, while watching the $Can dive, real inflation soar?

This is the ideal time to begin building a Canadian politics of sovereignty and self reliance bgased on equity, social justice and alternatives to globalization.........

not just to stop the export of raw logs...how about all US imports of processed lumber

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Canada retaliates

The Beaverton is like The Onion, but they say "colour" and "grey". 

+1

Quote:
The newly levied fines will make it prohibitively expensive for Canada’s alt-right to employ American-made, racially loaded code words like ‘globalist,’ ‘rule of law,’ ‘states’ rights,’ and ‘white genocide’ to scare up support for their dream of a racially pure white ethno-state. The aim is to incentive racists north of the border to destroy Canada’s social fabric using locally-manufactured expressions like ‘barbaric practices,’ ‘Old-Stock Canadians,’ and ‘Canadian values.’

Mighty Middle

Mulcair reiterates his previous stance that Trudeau needs to tell off Donald Trump to his face, calling Trump a Bully

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUrI_ykvDmA

SeekingAPolitic...

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/26/white-house-nafta-withdraw-trum...

Oh boy(sirens in the background) can trump kill nafta and do something the left was not accomplish in canada?  This could be posturing to sign a new deal with canada.  With a stroke of trumps pen is nafta finished?  Does anyone know what warning time is bulit in treaty, how long is in effect after the withdrawl notice is given?

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Any of the three countries can withdraw 6 months after the date of serving written notice.

 

NDPP

Trump Has 'Agreed Not To Terminate NAFTA At This Time', Canada and Mexico Told

http://bit.ly/2oyld9s

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

NAFTA Redux

The new Trump administration has made the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between Canada, Mexico and the United States, a major issue in its relations with its two neighbours. Recently, Trump has threatened to tear it up. With his standard nationalist demagogy, he claims “previous bad trade deals,” have cost the United States many jobs as a result of American manufacturers moving plants off-shore. He is now in the process of telling Canada and Mexico the new administration is prepared to bully its way to a new and more favourable arrangement for itself.

There are no smiley faces, no comforting talk about making the deal “work for everyone”; instead the administration, casting the niceties of diplomacy aside, is using the hard language of war, even resorting to martial terms to let us know how they think the new negotiations should proceed. “Well, we're in a trade war,” stated the U.S. Commerce secretary, the multi-billionaire, Wilbur Ross, when asked directly about that possibility in relation to NAFTA. “We've been in a trade war for decades – that's why we have a deficit. The difference is our troops are now coming to the ramparts.” “If people know you have the big bazooka, you probably don't have to use it,” he stated.

“The Mexicans know, the Canadians know, everybody knows, times are different. We are going to have new trade relations with people. And they all know they're going to have to make concessions. The only question is what's the magnitude, and what's the form of the concessions,” he said....

Pondering

NDPP wrote:

JT et al are going to sell us down the river bigtime. Just wait and see...

We were sold down the river a long time ago. As always, the interests of the .001% will prevail. Do you think Trudeau should follow the advice of Mulcair and call Trump a bully and get into a public tit for tat spat? I'm as horrified as anyone that Mulroney is being consulted but nobody is offering an alternative. Not even the NDP will stand up and say go ahead, rip it up. That means it is going to be renegotiated. Why isn't the NDP suggesting that unions and consumer protection agencies have a seat at the table? All the NDP has on offer is a blustering Mulcair who wants to tell off Trump. I'd like to hear what Guy Caron has to say on it.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Translation of Pondering's post.

1.  I can forgive my idol Justin anything even being a waterboy for the 0.1%.

2.  The NDP will never win my support because they are not progressive enough.

Absolutely no disconect in logic there, for a true partisan.

quizzical

i find pondering's posts scarey. someone in another thread posted an article on facsist thought and action and how their wording is.

this post and really all of ponderings would fit right into dude' words on Justin and fascist statements.

Pondering

quizzical wrote:

i find pondering's posts scarey. someone in another thread posted an article on facsist thought and action and how their wording is.

this post and really all of ponderings would fit right into dude' words on Justin and fascist statements.

Because expecting the NDP to take a progressive position on NAFTA and other trade deals is fascist? You obviously don't know the meaning of the word. You attack blindly because you follow blindly.

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Translation of Pondering's post.

1.  I can forgive my idol Justin anything even being a waterboy for the 0.1%.

2.  The NDP will never win my support because they are not progressive enough.

Absolutely no disconect in logic there, for a true partisan.

You're projecting. You are the one with the romantized view. All I see are waterboys to the .001% including the NDP.  You're the one claiming that the savior is nigh if only we would vote NDP.  Apparently I was supposed to believe the NDP could balance the budget 4 years running while establishing universal childcare. I don't believe in God or magic.

This particular thread is about NAFTA. What would the NDP be doing about it? So far all I've gotten is that they would call Trump a bully. Does the NDP think that would hurt Trump's feelings so he would be nicer in negotiations? Isn't reopening NAFTA an opportunity? Isn't this something the left has wanted?

Your attacks are predicated on the assumption that the NDP is capable of running the country and would do so in a more progressive fashion than the Liberals do. Both would have to be true for Canada to be better off under a federal NDP administration than they are under a federal Liberal administration.

100% of your and the NDP's accusations against Trudeau and the Liberals could be true. Still doesn't make the NDP a better bet. So far the NDP wants me to believe in magic and wants to berate Trump for being a bully. How is that better or even more progressive? It certainly wouldn't receive better terms for Canada under NAFTA. Given that Trump is saying this is all about jobs it is the perfect time to suggest that unions be involved in negotiations. Maybe there is some other angle that could be taken to benefit citizens on both sides of the border. If so I am pretty sure I won't be hearing it from the NDP. All I hear from the NDP is "we are better" "Trudeau is nasty" "elections aren't fair to us" "PR is the #1 issue" nothing more than foot stomping.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Did you hear me yet?

The only think worse than having Justin Trudeau as PM would be having Harper or Mulcair as PM. You are the one who hero worships Mulcair and the NDP.

Mighty Middle

Again who agrees with Mulcair, who says ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Trudeau needs to tell off Trump once and for all.

Who is on Team Mulcair with this stance?

Rev Pesky

From Mighty Middle:

Again who agrees with Mulcair, who says ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Trudeau needs to tell off Trump once and for all.

I'm replying based on the assumption you're not joking. If the above comment was supposed to be a joke, my apologies.

​Having said that, I'm not sure what anyone expects 'telling off Trump' will do. The USA has a perfect right to end their participation in NAFTA based on the pre-established rules. In that most of the left opposed NAFTA when it was put into operation, I, like Pondering, am not sure what the complaint is now. If you're opposed to NAFTA, and Trump ends the US participation in it, that would appear to satisfy your opposition to it.

If you're not really oppposed to NAFTA, but would like someone to call Trump an asshole, again, I'm not sure what you would be hoping to achieve. It seems obvious to me that flinging names at Trump would  be more likely to push him towards this particular part of his agenda than dissuade him from it.

If the US decides to leave NAFTA, there is nothing that Canada, or any Canadian government, can do about it. If the USA decides to 're-negotiate' NAFTA, all the Canadian government can do is press as hard as possible on those issues which will have the greatest impact on the Canadian economy.

What's a bit amusing about this is that while US/Canada do a great deal of cross border trade, to the tune of roughly USD $550 billion in 2016, the imbalance between Canada and the US is pretty small. Again, for 2016, about USD $11 billion in Canada's favour.

Meanwhile, total trade between the US and China is roughly the same, but the trade imbalance is about USD $347 billion in favour of China.

So Trump running around screaming about trade with Canada, and how we're taking advantage of them, obviously hasn't learned how to use a calculator.

I expect that saner heads will prevail, if for no other reason than that the automobile industry, a very large part of durable good manufacturing in North America is completely integrated. It would cost hundreds of billions of dollars, and possibly many millions of jobs to try and separate that industry by country. I suspect the powers that be in automobile manufacture will make their position known to the Trump administration.

As far as what the NDP would do, anyone who has lived with an NDP government knows well how slippery they are. People often say how the Liberals run from the left and govern from the right. The NDP is not a lot different.

For details of this, see Wikipedia:  BC NDP

Note the 1990's, with first Mike Harcourt, then Glen Clark as NDP premiers. The memory of Glen Clark is still fresh in people's minds, even today, and has cost the NDP for the last twenty years.

NDPP

Pondering wrote:

 

 All I see are waterboys to the .001% including the NDP.  

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

NDPP:

I agree with all of the above self-evident statements.  

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Rev Pesky wrote:

Note the 1990's, with first Mike Harcourt, then Glen Clark as NDP premiers. The memory of Glen Clark is still fresh in people's minds, even today, and has cost the NDP for the last twenty years.

More fake news from a liberal troll. Here is a good unbiased view of the relative governments fiscal performance. Of course the right wing media and useful idiots like Revb Pesky keep repeating the same lies over and over until indeed many people believe the alternate truth. 

Conclusion

Contrary to the image they wish to portray, the BC Liberals have not been good fiscal managers of the province’s resources. Their administration is typified by reckless spending, which will ultimately lead to higher taxes, higher hydro rates and higher ferry fares. The BC Liberals will give us less jobs, not more.

The province was in much better hands when the NDP were in power under Mike Harcourt.

https://theecoreport.com/are-the-bc-liberals-better-fiscal-managers-than...

 

Mighty Middle

 kropotkin1951 do you agree with Mulcair that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. Trudeau to start a fight with Trump, starting by telling his off to his face.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I would like to see us give six months notice to the US and Mexico. It reverts us to the GATT rules and the cross border trade is not dependent on any one kind of trade deal. However I do not trust the Liberals to renegotiate it because the corporate lawyers they send to the table will not have the Canadian public's best interests in mind. A smart strategy would be to give the notice and then open up bilateral talks with a provincial government council and the Northern border state governors. They want open borders with Canada and they are almost all Red states.  Play

quizzical

Pondering wrote:

quizzical wrote:

i find pondering's posts scarey. someone in another thread posted an article on facsist thought and action and how their wording is.

this post and really all of ponderings would fit right into dude' words on Justin and fascist statements.

Because expecting the NDP to take a progressive position on NAFTA and other trade deals is fascist? You obviously don't know the meaning of the word. You attack blindly because you follow blindly.

bs pondering you know i'm not a follower of any sort.

it's your wording i'm speaking about.

because you do this all the time:

"

Then came the part that really grabbed my attention:

"It's the fascists who said everyday life doesn't matter; details don't matter; facts don't matter; all that matters is the message, the leader, the myth, the totality."

What surprised me, listening to Snyder's description of the earmarks of fascism, was that Donald Trump didn't come to mind.

Popping up instead was the image of our own Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, complete with sleeves rolled up on his crisp, white dress shirt."

when i read the article you popped to mind.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/g-elijah-dann/is-justin-trudeau-fascist_b_1...

 

Mighty Middle

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would like to see us give six months notice to the US and Mexico. It reverts us to the GATT rules and the cross border trade is not dependent on any one kind of trade deal. However I do not trust the Liberals to renegotiate it because the corporate lawyers they send to the table will not have the Canadian public's best interests in mind. A smart strategy would be to give the notice and then open up bilateral talks with a provincial government council and the Northern border state governors. They want open borders with Canada and they are almost all Red states.  Play

So you support Trump and his stance to rip-up NAFTA?

Pondering

NDPP wrote:

Pondering wrote:

 

 All I see are waterboys to the .001% including the NDP.  

 

Justin Trudeau is a crappy Prime Minister.

NDPP:

I agree with all of the above self-evident statements.  

The worst part is, he is still the best on offer. Guy Caron gives me some hope but I won't really know if and until he wins the leadership if he is strong enough to go up against Trudeau and just how serious he is about the need to restructure the economy.

Until then Trudeau is who we have. Bashing him will do nothing to advance progressive causes. It just makes grievances sound personal rather than political.