Erin Weir accused of harassment 2

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Misfit Misfit's picture

I even set up two threads for it so that if you miss the one there would be another one for you to use. Hee hee hee.

 

Badriya

Unionist wrote:

Badriya wrote:

Pondering, that is just not true. Weir père  clearly stated in his letter that there were procedures in place through the employees’ collective agreement and the House of Commons that should have been used rather than the ad hoc investigation Singh instituted 

Truth is not Pondering's strong point in this thread. Not sure why she is doubling down on this character assassination, and repeating one falsehood after another to do so. But correcting the record is getting tiresome.

I agree, but sometimes the falsehoods are so egregious I feel compelled to respond to clear the record in case a newbie actually believes what she says.

Pondering

Aristotleded24 wrote:
 That is absolutely unacceptable. It's one thing to talk about why women don't report when harassed and what kind of improvements can be made. For example, one of the steps taken in Manitoba was the introduction of a "no wrong door" policy when reporting harassment. But gossip, rumours, and innuendo should never be the basis upon which to ruin somebody's life. Or I guess neither you nor someone close to you had the experience of rumours getting around in high school and destroying your reputation?

Gossip, rumour and innuendo was not the basis on which Weir was expelled from caucus. If there were no investigations on the basis of rumor then Ghomeshi and the two Liberal MPs would still be in place. They and Weir did not have their reputations ruined over rumours. Investigations were launched and allegations were substanciated. 

I have certainly said and done embarassing things that I regret in my lifetime but I haven't harassed anyone in or out of the workplace and I would be especially careful not to do so to anyone whom I had power over. I am confident that any investigation into my behavior would not lead to findings that I had harassed people. I have no idea, if, in Weir's position, I would have reacted the same way in feeling the need to express "my side" to the press. I might have. The urge to self-defence is very strong. His reaction was human and politicians are human. It just created an untenable situation that could have been foreseen by Weir. The NDP was forced by Weir to choose between Weir versus the staffer, Mulcair, and Angus. The party chose the staffer, Mulcair and Angus.

The terms witch hunt and fishing expedition have both been used and neither is accurate. There was no random hunt for a target nor any plot against Weir based on his political views. Any politician should be prepared to be investigated by reporters and if any rumours surface expect to have those investigated. 

This includes things like the existence of a security tape showing someone peeing into a cup. Being uncouth isn't illegal.  He  probably still gets work, just not as a politician. 

Weir made a string of bad choices and political miscalculations. If Weir had kept his mouth shut he would be back in caucus. The whole thing would have gone away. Weir himself said that he would not have said what he did had he known how Singh would react. As a professional politician Weir should have realized that by arguing his innocence in the press he was opening a battle he could not win. He gave information that identified one of the complainants and claimed there was political motivation behind the accusations from women and he dragged Mulcair and Angus into it accusing them of punishing him. 

Had Singh reinstated Weir after that there would have been outrage from women's groups and animosity within caucus as  Weir  had  also thrown  Mulcair and Angus under the bus. I think Weir relished the opportunity to publicize his opposition to carbon taxes and to get back at them for blocking him at the convention and not giving him the opportunity to speak in question period.  

Why do you think the entire caucus is behind Singh on this? Weir became a political liability. 

 He should run for the Saskatchewan NDP.

In my opinion the NDP caucus and powers that be understand that at the moment there is no viable alternative to Singh. He would have to do something very dramatic to justify a mutiny and there is no one waiting in the wings that would likely do any better in the current political climate. The optics of a mutiny against Singh would be dreadful. There would be accusations of racism because Singh hasn't done anything worthy of being ditched without even facing an election. 

NorthReport
NorthReport

dp

NorthReport

Singh hired an independent professional to do an investigation and accepted her findings. Then Weir blew it. This thread is just a continuation and rehashing of the same ole nonsense, just huffing and puffing by the Singh haters, and nothing whatsoever has changed nor has any new light been shown on the situation. 

NorthReport

Singh hired an independent professional to do an investigation and accepted her findings. Then Weir blew it. This thread is just a continuation and rehashing of the same ole nonsense, just huffing and puffing by the mainly Singh/ NDP haters, and nothing whatsoever has changed nor has any new light been shed on the situation. 

6079_Smith_W

Pondering wrote:

 He should run for the Saskatchewan NDP.

Aside from the fact it is the same party, what is this supposed to mean?

Misfit Misfit's picture

I assume Pondering means that he could run provincially in a provincial riding to become an MLA.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pondering wrote:

That would have required the complainants initiate proceedings. That hasn't been happening. Instead, grapevine information becomes public which sets off an investigation. Whatever means through which allegations become known they should be investigated. 

Complainants didn't come forward about Ghomeshi. The Star heard about it on the grapevine and investigated. The NDP MPs did not make complaints against the Liberal MPs. The investigation was a result of grapevine information. 

Investigations resulting from grapevine information are completely appropriate. It would be inappropriate to ignore grapevine information because it isn't coming through official channels. 

To claim the investigation was faulty in some way, led to an unjust conclusion, calls into question the complaints. It suggests that they are invalid or less valid due to the process through which they were uncovered. 

I heard it on the grapevine is not proof and whether or not rumour and innuendo is enough to trigger a proper investigation is a legitimate debate given the reluctance of most victims to come forward. However the idea that rumour and the grapevine is enough to proceed to discipline without a proper investigation is authoritarian and often leads to draconian outcomes.

The investigation process has to be proper or victims as well as alleged perpetrators will be subjected to an arbitrary process that has nothing to do with justice or preventing future abuse because the outcome will always be in dispute.

This stuff is not new. We have had decent processses in place in most workplaces including this one for decades. The test of all of them comes when they get dusted off and implemented. Clearly the NDP has great processes on paper but failed miserably when it came to applying them in the real world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQRcUxNJEbs

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Pondering wrote:

 He should run for the Saskatchewan NDP.

Aside from the fact it is the same party, what is this supposed to mean?

I don't think Singh has any say on provincial candidates. To my knowledge, Weir hasn't been expelled from the party, only from the federal caucus. 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-jagmeet-singh-wont-change...

Mr. Singh cited “some folks in Saskatchewan” where more than 60 former NDP members of the provincial legislature, ex-MPs and other supporters have signed a recent letter asking Mr. Singh to reconsider the exile of Mr. Weir because they do not think he has been fairly treated.

Seems like the provincial party is supportive. He should run for them. 

6079_Smith_W

They are the same party, and those who supported him aren't specific to the provincial caucus, So I am not sure what you mean by saying that he should just run provincially, if there was even a free constituency available.

bekayne

NorthReport wrote:

Singh hired an independent professional to do an investigation and accepted her findings. 

Again, is this the person who is also Press Secretary for the NDP caucus?

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:
 They are the same party, and those who supported him aren't specific to the provincial caucus, So I am not sure what you mean by saying that he should just run provincially, if there was even a free constituency available. 

Are you saying that Singh can block Weir from running for a provincial seat under the provincial NDP? 

Provincial MPPs were referenced as being supporters. He appears to have a lot of support in Saskatchwan. Even if he wanted to Singh can't take Weir back now so there is nothing to be gained by continuing to push for reinstatement. It's not going to happen. Even if Weir wins the local nomination, which he probably won't, he is not elligible. He is done as a member of the federal caucus even if the leadership changes. I suggest he run provincially  because it appears that he does have a lot of local support. If he wants to stay in politics that would seem to be his best bet.

As to a riding being open, aren't they all open to challenge at the time of nominations? 

6079_Smith_W

Pondering wrote:

Provincial MPPs were referenced as being supporters.

Nope, I didn't read that anywhere and in fact none of the current MLAs signed the letter in support of him. All of the past Saskatchewan federal MPs did though.

Weir is a federal MP. This is an issue that concerns the federal caucus, and federal riding association, and claiming that he could just run provincially doesn't make this problem go away, even if there was a local constituency without a nominated candidate.

Just because he has some local supporters who are active in federal politics doesn't mean you can frame this as a "Saskatchewan" issue and tell him to run provincially, any more than if we were talking about an MP from your province, or any other.

 

 

brookmere

Pondering wrote:
To my knowledge, Weir hasn't been expelled from the party, only from the federal caucus.

The NDP constitution delegates authority over membership to the provincial sections. No office holder or body at the federal level has the power to expel any member.

NorthReport

 

It appears that the investigator’s credentials speak for themselves which are impressive and she is obviously eminently qualified.

Jagmeet obviously made the correct call under difficult circumstances. Koodos to Jagmeet!

 

 

Michelle Flaherty

 

https://commonlaw.uottawa.ca/15/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=6035

Misfit Misfit's picture

Bekayne 

the women who did the investigation of the harassment complaints is a lawyer.

it was the head of the union who stated that it was unsafe for the female MPs for Erin Weir to return to caucus. This union leader is also Jagmeet Sing's press secretary.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Pondering,

In Ontario, elected provincial candidates are referred to as MPPs, Members of the Provincial Parliament.

In Saskatchewan, as well as in some other provinces as well, our provincial parliament is referred to as a Legislative Assembly, so our elected provincial candidates are called MLAs, Members of the Legislative Assembly.

And Smith,

Pat Atkinson is a retired NDP MLA from Saskatoon Nutana. I believe that some of those signatories were former provincial MLAs as well.

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:
  Nope, I didn't read that anywhere and in fact none of the current MLAs signed the letter in support of him. All of the past Saskatchewan federal MPs did though. 

Then you didn't read my post. I quoted. Here it is again:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-jagmeet-singh-wont-change...

Mr. Singh cited “some folks in Saskatchewan” where more than 60 former NDP members of the provincial legislature, ex-MPs and other supporters have signed a recent letter asking Mr. Singh to reconsider the exile of Mr. Weir because they do not think he has been fairly treated.

6079_Smith_W wrote:
  Weir is a federal MP. This is an issue that concerns the federal caucus, and federal riding association, and claiming that he could just run provincially doesn't make this problem go away, even if there was a local constituency without a nominated candidate. 

The problem is gone.  Weir will eventually wear himself out. I very much doubt that he will win the nomination in his riding when he has been rejected at the federal level. That Weir is refusing to accept his expulsion doesn't make it any the less true. The entire NDP caucus, not just Singh, agrees with his expulsion. There isn't going to be a redo. 

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/09/13/saskatchewan-mp-erin-weir...

Weir, meanwhile, has maintained he was treated unfairly. On Thursday, he called Flaherty a “relatively activist investigator” who took a broad view of harassment, and reiteratedthat he was found to have done nothing more than stand too close to people and speak to them for longer than they wanted. 

Weir is completely focused on mimimizing his actions to the point at which he seems to be claiming he didn't do anything at all. I don't think he is doing himself any favors. 

 

Unionist

Exactly why is anyone engaging Pondering in her ludicrous diversion about Erin Weir running provincially?

 

Aristotleded24

Would the Regina Lewvan NDP have the option to simply refuse to nominate a candidate for the general election? If so, could the federal party force them to do so?

Pondering

Aristotleded24 wrote:
Would the Regina Lewvan NDP have the option to simply refuse to nominate a candidate for the general election? If so, could the federal party force them to do so?

Is that something you think they might do? Has the riding said they plan to even let him run for the position? Until the riding announces their intention to defy Singh, Weir is just blowing hot air. 

Aristotleded24

Pondering wrote:
Aristotleded24 wrote:
Would the Regina Lewvan NDP have the option to simply refuse to nominate a candidate for the general election? If so, could the federal party force them to do so?

Is that something you think they might do? Has the riding said they plan to even let him run for the position? Until the riding announces their intention to defy Singh, Weir is just blowing hot air.

I've lived on the Prairies long enough to know that Saskatchewan has a strong independent streak and does not like to be dictated to from Ottawa. If the riding association decides to nominate Weir and a battle between the riding association and Singh erupts over it, I can assure you that Singh and the federal party will not come out on the winning side of that one.

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

Exactly why is anyone engaging Pondering in her ludicrous diversion about Erin Weir running provincially?

Why? Because he isn't in the provincial legislature, and if we were talking about an MP from other parts of the country I don't think we'd hear the excuse that they should just run provincially if they have support there, as if that was a solution to this problem.

Besides, all MPs presumably have support in their home provinces otherwise they wouldn't have gotten elected, so it is an absurd line of reasoning.

And Pondering, you said that members of the legislature supported him. As I responded, none of the sitting MLAs signed Pat Atkinson's letter. It was signed by former MPs and MLAs, but not anyone from the current federal or provincial caucuses. So no, it isn't as if Weir has some support that is particular to the provincial wing of the party, so again, I am not sure why you think he should try to run provincially.

 

 

 

brookmere

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Would the Regina Lewvan NDP have the option to simply refuse to nominate a candidate for the general election? If so, could the federal party force them to do so?

The federal party can't force anyone to nominate anybody, but they can nominate a candidate themselves if the local association fails to do so, or if there is no local association. This is not theoretical, it's what they have done in much of Quebec and other places for a long time.

NorthReport
NorthReport
NorthReport
Unionist

brookmere wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Would the Regina Lewvan NDP have the option to simply refuse to nominate a candidate for the general election? If so, could the federal party force them to do so?

The federal party can't force anyone to nominate anybody, but they can nominate a candidate themselves if the local association fails to do so, or if there is no local association. This is not theoretical, it's what they have done in much of Quebec and other places for a long time.

Here's what Article XV, Section 1 of the NDP constitution says:

Quote:
The Federal Council shall create rules and procedures for the nomination of the federal candidates.

That was added at the 2013 convention in order to create consistency in the procedures, which differed by province and by riding association, apparently.

I hereby challenge anyone to find the "rules and procedures for the nomination of the federal candidates", which the Federal Council was mandated to create.

Waiting...

EDITED TO ADD: Ok, I'm tired of waiting, so:

HINT: New nomination rules were approved around the beginning of this month and have been distributed to the riding associations.

Waiting...

MegB

epaulo13 wrote:

..what they share in common is that the leaderships represent the third way. that they never offer up an alternative to neoliberalism or capitalism.

YES!

MegB

I'm going to close this thread because it's so off topic that it needs another thread (or two, or three).

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