Federal Israeli Apartheid Week motion defeated

And that seems a good and classy way of having dealt with it. Yay Libby!

proof enough that the federal NDP is not that of provincial NDP, I would say.

Thanks to Libby Davies and others that share her conviction, this is a huge victory for democracy by any standard.

This is good news that not all politicians are afraid to stand up to the Israeli lobby. What does condeming the event actually do?
Nothing really. This whole thing seems like a tactic for the Conservatives to add to their pamphlets the names of those that didn't support the motion to condemn IAW and imply that they are anti-semitic.

The CIC says "a similar motion introduced by the Bloc Quebecois also denouncing the use of the term apartheid to describe Israel." failed. Does anyone know the difference between the Bloc's and Uppals' motions? Did the Bloc support Uppal's motion?

Mr. Tim Uppal (Edmonton-Sherwood Park, CPC):
 
Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, there have been consultations with all parties, and I hope you would find consent for the following motion: "That this House condemns Israeli Apartheid Week for seeking to delegitimize the State of Israel by equating it with the racist South African apartheid regime, and that this House continues to support a peaceful resolution through a negotiated two-state solution that respects Israel's right to exist".
 
The Speaker:

Does the hon. member for Edmonton-Sherwood Park have the unanimous consent of the House to propose this motion?
 
Some hon. members: Agreed.
 
Some hon. members: No.
 
 
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (Beauharnois-Salaberry, BQ):

 
Mr. Speaker, I also wish to seek the unanimous consent of the House to adopt the following motion:
 
That this House denounce the use of the word apartheid to describe the Israeli policy on Palestinians and the word anti-Semitic to describe any criticism against Israel, and that this House reaffirm its support for Israel's right to live in peace and security within sound, established borders, and reaffirm its support for the right of the Palestinian people to have its own state within sound borders and to live there in peace and security.
 
The Speaker: 
 
Does the hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry have the unanimous consent of the House to move this motion?
 
Some hon. members: Agreed.
 
Some hon. members: No.
 
The Speaker: There is no consent.

The Canada Israel Committee is busy busy busy trying to disinform and divide and conquer!  I wonder if they congratulated the Bloc for putting forward a motion in the House to "denounce" the use of the term of anti-semitism in relation to criticism of Israel? (The other part of the motion they are "congratulating" the bloc on in the above link.)

Meanwhile, the CIC's friends at B'nai Brith were busy earlier this week bullying the Bloc Quebecois for calling out the Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Anti-Semitism for what it is: a pro-Israeli lobby. Here is the media release they issued:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

B’nai Brith Canada disappointed by Bloc decision to pull out of
parliamentary coalition against antisemitism

TORONTO, March 11, 2010 – B’nai Brith Canada has expressed concern at
reports that the Bloc Quebecois (BQ) has walked out of a national coalition
designed to cooperatively examine and address the issue of antisemitism in
Canada. 

“The move by the BQ to pull out of the Canadian Parliamentary Coalition to
Combat Antisemitism (CPCCA) has politicized a non-partisan issue of concern
to all Canadians, said Frank Dimant, B’nai Brith Canada’s Executive Vice
President.  “The decision by the BQ to turn its back on the process of an
all-party initiative against antisemitism, before the Coalition has even
begun to reach conclusions or offer recommendations, is counterproductive
to say the least.

“Canadians were optimistic when they witnessed the overwhelming response to
the CPCCA’s important initiative to combat antisemitism in Canada - police
chiefs, academics, victims of antisemitism and the human rights
organizations that assist them - all came together to work cooperatively on
examining antisemitism in all its many manifestations and finding
solutions.  We would ask the Bloc to reconsider this decision.”

-30-

For more information, please contact, Dan Rabkin, Communications Officer:
416-633-6224 X 140 / cell: 416-312-9173

Am I ever glad we have democratic voices like Libby's in Parliament.

Yeah, too bad we don't have them in Ontario.

Theyre always praising up the NDP in these threads. It's sickening.

I salute the courage of Libby Davies who is unfortunately now a target for CIC  and the rest of the lobby (and though it's not at all clear which MPs voice-voted for or against the two very different motions, the CIC has apparently decided to target the entire NDP in a pressure move for allowing Davies vocal dissent).

Meanwhile:

http://ijvcanada.org/ijv-vji-statements-enonces/communique-de-presse/ijv...

Skinny Dipper, I think I (vaguely) understand your argument, but the answer to the TDSB's attempt to ban criticism of Israel isn't, "well, you should ban support for Israel also!" There are many who would like to ban all political education, discussion, and organization in schools - not to protect the "well-being of the students", but to shelter young minds from all thought except that of the ruling classes which pervades the education system, the mainstream media, and what passes for popular culture in some quarters.

Hi Unionist,

I think I also vaguely understand your point as well.  There's nothing wrong with being pro-Israeli as these organizations are.  I will state that some high school student may complain to the teacher or principal that these same organizations are anti-Arab and anti-Muslim.  The Jewish and pro-Israeli organizations don't need to state that they hate Arabs or Muslims--just their presence in the schools could affect the learning envionment for some students.  Their pro-Israeli stance could also mean that they hate Arabs and Muslims.  Their message could be implied instead of being explicit against the Arabs.  While the pro-right-wing Israel supporting groups may claim that IAW displays explicit hatred against Jews and Israel, I haven't see any such information in the IAW's website.  I haven't seen anything implicit either.  Then again, my views are subjective just as my views about the Jewish or pro-Israeli groups could also be deemed subjective.

If one were a principal or teacher at a school, would you consider banning T-shirts with JDL, CJC, CIC, or B'nai Brith logos?  These groups could be preaching hatred.   What if you don't?  Arab and Muslim Canadian students may complain by either bringing in their own T-shirts or by disripting the learning environment because they will claim that the pro-Israeli students are first disrupting the learning environment.

Outside the school enviroment the IAW supporters can now state that the pro-Israeli groups are hate groups.  One may agree or disagree.  The point is that they can state this now.  I do believe that in the United States, the JDL is considered a terrorist organization along with KACH.  In Canada, only KACH is considered a terrorist organization.

I'm starting to ramble on.  I don't dispute the decision of the TDSB.  The problem for pro-Israeli groups is that people will start calling their groups pro-hate groups whether or not one agrees.

I'll write one more comment before I depart from the computer. (I do need a life away from the keyboard.)

Just because the TDSB has banned IAW and its related activities, it doesn't mean that life becomes impossible.  One does not need to have a group in a high school to get the message through.  Activities can take place off school property.  Here are some options:

Set up a separate organization to work with high school students.  Give it a completely different name.  Give it a positive name.  Have youth organizers.  This won't get you into the high schools, but that does not matter.

Distribute literature and locker magnets off school property.  Hold a few speeches in front of the Pizza Pizza or similar place.  Give out more magnets.

Note: IAW has been banned.  So far, there is no ban yet on "Israel = Apartheid."  If there is a ban, that will be good publicity for you.

One advantage that you will have over pro-Israeli student groups is that your group will likely be multi-ethnic and multi-racial.  There will probably be a diversity of leadership that can reach out to many students.  Based on my high school experience as a student, many Jewish students (especially staunch pro-Israeli students) live in their own little cliques.  They have very few non-Jewish friends.  This will make it harder for them to reach out to their fellow non-Jewish students.  Their only option is to seek support from the school administration through their parents.  Use that to your advantage. "Young people vs. Jewish parents."

IAW may not be acceptable in the high schools.  You might be able to get away with BDS.  It means boycott, divestment, and sanctions.  One does not need to attach BDS with Israel on a T-shirt.  Just talk about BDS off school property.  The students will get the message of BDS like a Nike swoosh. Have T-shirts which state "Bob, Doug, and Sandra."  Be imaginative.  Tell them to imagine living in suburban Toronto and not being allowed to go to the Rogers Centre for a concert because the authorities have set up a wall and checkpoints which inhibit your movement.  A high school student may understand that.

Have fun.

Added comment:

Do remember that if you wish to target high school students, make sure that your message is at a high school level.  Yes, they are intelligent, but they may not have the same kind of worldly experience that an adult may have.  Your messages should be at grade-nine to twelve levels.  Have printed materials and video featuring young people in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel.  Use Deborah Ellis's Three Wishes as a reference.  Again, have young people involved in the planning.  Have young people talking to young people.

B-Bob

D-Doug

S-Sandra

Skinny Dipper, I take it that Unionist is saying that we should not become what we behold. You are in danger of advocating the logic that drives, eg, the CPCCA, and that seems to me a very bad idea -- in fact, a totally unprincipled one.

Point of information: I don't think the U.S. lists the JDL as a terrorist organization, but the FBI have repeatedly described their activities as terrorist, both before and after 9/11.

Hi skdadl,

Yes, I am still here.

No matter what the IAW and pro-Palestinian supporters may say, the anti-IAW will still describe IAW and its suporters as Jew-haters and anti-Semitic.  Take the high or low road.  It's up to the IAW supporters.

If your infomation is correct about the JDL, thanks for correcting me.

Skinny Dipper, I first want to note how appreciative I am of your civil tone.

I understand your point though I would add that a single issue matter that might be interpreted as highly offensive or targeting a specific faith group is far different in my view than labeling an entire organization. CJC for example while strong supporters of Israel are also well known for their human rights and inter-faith/ethnic dialogue work. One, I believe must show great care in not wrongly tarring a group because you disagree with a position it takes, as long as that position is not seen as advcating hatred or contempt.

As I recall, public opinion polls indicate that a rather large percentage of American Jews have views on Israel that are far more consistent with those of a group such as IJV than with pro-Zionist groups. If we extrapolate that to Canada I suspect that the CJC represents far fewer Canadian Jews than they, and you, claim. Now that the CJC doesn't even have members (what kind of Congress has no membership?) there's no way to quantify their claims to represent the Jewish community though I suspect B'nai Brith Canada would have some objections to your claims. 

BTW, Hasn't the turnout at the Israel Walk in Toronto dropped by half over the past five years or so?

I simply do not believe this. While many American Jews are more progressive on Israel related matters they would still be pro-Israel and never support BDS campaigns as do IJV. In Canada the numbers, Im willing to bet are much more different tending to be more conservative. Would like to see your studies you mention that would prove your point.

aka Mycroft continues to engage in trying to divert and confuse. Jacu asked to see proof of his allegations which he then tries to maniputae by demanding that Jacu show proof of his insinuation that there are only a dozen supporters of IJV. And here's the difference; Jacu made no claims of studies and the like. Indeed he wrote (as I read it) in a more sarcastic vein, but that is just me.

I agree that Jews in Canada are not always in sinc with CIC but there is no doubt in my mind that unlike IJV the overwhelming number of both Canadian and American Jews pass the "J-test".

“ According to the paper, “By implicitly shifting the debate from Israeli policy to Israel’s right to exist, BDSers have provided what we could call ‘the J-Street Test.’” The “test,” Troy explains, is a way of drawing the line between honest criticism of Israel and its policies on the one hand, and demonization that seeks Israel’s destruction on the other. J Street, much castigated by many the Jewish community for its ongoing, strident criticism of the Israeli government, “passes the test” as an honest critic of Israel because it condemned the BDS movement, he said. The paper quotes Tal Shechter of J Street U, who wrote, “We should be investing – not divesting – in our campus debate, in our communities and in the people who will bring about change in the region. That’s why J Street U is launching an ‘Invest, Don’t Divest’ campaign today to raise money for two organizations – LendforPeace.org, a Palestinian microfinance organization set up by students like us, and The Center for Jewish-Arab Economic Development, which promotes Jewish-Arab Economic Cooperation in Israel.” “I disagree with J Street, and I’ve written publicly about my disagreements,” says Troy, “But they didn’t get dragged, like some other well-meaning activists, into a prejudiced, obsessive campaign over Israel’s very existence.”

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=170710

IJV does not come close to passing the "J-Test"

Attachment to Israel Declining Among Young American Jews

Anyway, neither Jaku nor prophit have addressed the progressive drop in numbers attending the annual Israel Walk.

Hannah Arendt and Albert Einstien fail the "J-Test" too not to mention Yehudi Menuhin.

Do you mean this Albert Einstein who supported the Zionist cause:

 http://www.zionism-israel.com/Albert_Einstein/Albert_Einstein_zionism.htm

Ya probably true.

Keep in mind that there is still work to do on this issue - a tory MLA has promised to bring in a similar motion in Manitoba.

See how disciplined Prophit is, Mycroft? He has his eye only on the diversion and the disruption. He will never comment on an issue of substance - such as whether the positions I presented pass his test or not. There is no value in attempting to debate matters of substance with those who have only diversion as their aim. Jaku, at least, gives views on particular subjects from time to time, whether we find them offensive or not.

One of my relatives was a founding member of the first synagogue in Montreal. And his brother Ezekiel was a fur trader. Does that count for anything in the j-test? Where do I pick up my membership card? Will they welcome me in the promised land?

All that this ends up proving is that one can take what Einstein said many ways and build a case. Being dead no one will really ever really know.

And as you say, what the CJC fears the most is the fact that many Jews are moving "beyond the pale," which explains their increasingly desperate attacks on groups like IJV.  Jews (outside Israel) are overwhelmingly small-"l" liberal in their values and support human rights - and it's increasingly difficult to reconcile being liberal and being a modern-day Zionist.

LOL.

I ... love a charade ...

As I said, 1954, much has happened since then...who knows how Einstein would feel as a result...he seemed to change his views often...you can conjecture all you want...we will never really know.

And Skdadl, you might think its humerous to suggest that CJC "supports the murder of palestinians", I certainly find no humour in it and I highly doubt that CJC will either. I have notified the mods and hopefully they will do the right thing.

Unionist, make all the fun you wish. After all what do you care? This isn't your Board and all you have to lose is the hours and hours you spend here.

Einstein, Zionism and Israel: Setting the Record Straight

As I said, Jaku, it seems that what shifted is not Einstein's view, per se, but Zionism. Einstein never supported the concept of a Jewish state (ie political Zionism) and as political Zionism emerged as the dominant force in the Zionist movement and came to fruition with the creation of the state of Israel, Einstein pulled away and his criticisms became more pronounced.

Interesting how Prophit hasn't shown her face here since her erroneous claims about Einstein were refuted. Word to the wise, Prophit, don't trust what you read on hasbara propaganda pages like www.zionism-israel.com . Using a page like that as a source will only result in embarassment along the lines of what you've experienced here.

Whenever I read posts like #58, I read them in my mind's ear in an overwrought, tearful, melodramatic tone.  It's so much more entertaining that way!

Oh, Gosh! Well, Jaku, my dear, dear, fellow, I will humbly, heartily, cheerfully, or most morosely, which ever is preferred, apologize here, publicly on babble and before all its readers, to the CJC for any slight perceived, or offense taken, just as soon as you demonstrate for me a single condemnation by the CJC of the state of Israel for its ongoing repression, and, yes, murder of Palestinians. I pledge to you the apology is being penned in breathless anticipation.

I know some pig Latin, and a little avEnglavish.

No amount of diversion, Yiddish philosophizing or Aramaic quotations will change the facts.

Thanks for the explanation, unionist. Aramaic/Hebrew/Yiddish, now I know there is a difference ... reminds me of the old goldberg/iceberg joke. 

Gee and I always thought you were a secularist

I am - that's why God won't get me.

what facts jaku?

Praise the Lord! (Does the Lord comment here?)

Eat your vitamins, U.  Be well.

GOD

I like it far better when you are unknowable but since your here I have a question.  If getting Jaku is the will of Allah will GOD and Christ agree or will they have to seek serenity under a tree and ask the Buddha. 

You know darned well that Allah is merely Arabic for God, that Christ, insofar as you're talking about the trinity, is a human created obfuscation emanating largely from the Council of Nicea, and Buddhism is non-theistic.  Something which I rather like about them I should add.

When I say get Jaku, get him what?  Maybe I mean get him a prezzie.  It'll be a surprise though.

Yeah I hate it when people get us confused. 

OMNÍPOTENS Dómine, Verbum dei Patris, Christe Jesu, Deus et Dóminus univérsæ creatúræ: qui sanctis Apóstolis tuis dedísti potestátem calcándi super serpéntes et scorpiónes: qui inter cétera mirabílium tuórum præcépta dignátus es dícere: Dæmones effugáte: cujus virtúte motus tamquam fulgur de cælo sátanas cécidit: tuum sanctum nomen cum timóre et tremóre supplíciter déprecor, ut indigníssimo mihi servo tuo, data vénia ómnium delictórum meórum, constantem fidem, et potestátem donáre dignéris, ut hunc crudélem dæmonem, brácchii tui sancti munítus poténtia, fidéliter et secúrus aggrédiar: per te, Jesu Christe, Dómine Deus noster, qui ventúrus es judicáre vivos et mórtuos, et sæculum per ignem!!

Well, that's a real disappointment. Us Presbyterians were waiting so patiently for the hellfire-and-brimstone parts. I hate being exorcised.

Goldstein can't even find any evidence, because there isn't any.  Look at his article from last week.  He even admits that no one said anything anti-semitic at IAW, but they're still Jew-haters, because... um... saying that they don't hate Jews is exactly what a Jew-hater would say!

Incidentally, I think Goldstein eats puppies.  Puppy-eaters don't always make it obvious.

Nice imagery.  How so very Orwellian.

I'm going to go try to get my son to enlist in the army to go kick some Taliban butt just like we did against the Nazis.

Ah yes, well I have been threatened in some wierd ways in the past but someone else's God getting me is rather unique

Unionist you don't know the half of it

I'm sure most of us will unanimously agree, skdadl.

Mind you, I reached a consensus, but so far no one else has.