Frank McKenna: Latest Liberal Messiah

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madmax

quote:


+ I don't think many people are aware of McKenna's anti-abortion stance yet. That's a no-no.

The LPC have been dodging abortion for years. Now the anti-abortion side of the party is growing. Most don't discuss it in public, but both LPC and Form LPC MPs and MPPs in ridings I have lived in have been anti-abortion, but not openly or publicly.

Some try to hide their stance and play the field openly like Elizabeth May has done. She is considered by certain church members as anti abortion pro life and to other orgs as pro choice.

Regardless, this gets votes, it is a vote getter, regardless of whether McKenna would do any more then the current CPC who use the same tactic.

West Coast Lefty

quote:


McKenna will not run. Apparrently he has been "testing the waters" for Liberal leadership since 1989!
After losing the election with a policy wonk as a leader, I think the Liberals will want someone with charisma. That disqualifies Manley and McKenna.

+ I don't think many people are aware of McKenna's anti-abortion stance yet. That's a no-no.


I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard.

In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord.

He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ]

West Coast Lefty

quote:


McKenna will not run. Apparrently he has been "testing the waters" for Liberal leadership since 1989!
After losing the election with a policy wonk as a leader, I think the Liberals will want someone with charisma. That disqualifies Manley and McKenna.

+ I don't think many people are aware of McKenna's anti-abortion stance yet. That's a no-no.


I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard.

In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord.

He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ]

West Coast Lefty

quote:


McKenna will not run. Apparrently he has been "testing the waters" for Liberal leadership since 1989!
After losing the election with a policy wonk as a leader, I think the Liberals will want someone with charisma. That disqualifies Manley and McKenna.

+ I don't think many people are aware of McKenna's anti-abortion stance yet. That's a no-no.


I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard.

In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord.

He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ]

janfromthebruce

quote:


Originally posted by West Coast Lefty:
[b]

I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard.

In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord.

He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ][/b]


He would be perfect. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

janfromthebruce

quote:


Originally posted by West Coast Lefty:
[b]

I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard.

In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord.

He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ][/b]


He would be perfect. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

janfromthebruce

quote:


Originally posted by West Coast Lefty:
[b]

I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard.

In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord.

He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ][/b]


He would be perfect. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Stockholm

quote:


I think Bob Rae (unpopular as he is in many circles) also has that ability to connect with people. I don't see Iggy and Manley in the same way at all at all.

I don't know what gives you that idea. Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle.

I suspect that the Liberals after this election will create a new myth that says that moving to the left and trying to regain support from the NDP and Greens was a failure and that meanwhile they lost the centrist suburban vote to the Tories. I predict that the next leader they choose will be a centre-right "business Liberal".

Stockholm

quote:


I think Bob Rae (unpopular as he is in many circles) also has that ability to connect with people. I don't see Iggy and Manley in the same way at all at all.

I don't know what gives you that idea. Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle.

I suspect that the Liberals after this election will create a new myth that says that moving to the left and trying to regain support from the NDP and Greens was a failure and that meanwhile they lost the centrist suburban vote to the Tories. I predict that the next leader they choose will be a centre-right "business Liberal".

Stockholm

quote:


I think Bob Rae (unpopular as he is in many circles) also has that ability to connect with people. I don't see Iggy and Manley in the same way at all at all.

I don't know what gives you that idea. Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle.

I suspect that the Liberals after this election will create a new myth that says that moving to the left and trying to regain support from the NDP and Greens was a failure and that meanwhile they lost the centrist suburban vote to the Tories. I predict that the next leader they choose will be a centre-right "business Liberal".

ghoris

Of course, the flip side of the coin is that there are a lot of Liberals who are convinced that to win they need to "unite the left" - ie win over NDP and Green voters. There is some credence to this theory - when Chretien was winning his majorities the NDP's vote was in single digits and the Greens weren't on the radar. Some of these left-Liberals have convinced themselves that Martin was perceived as a 'right-wing' leader which drove left-leaning voters to the NDP, Bloc and Greens in 2004 and 2006. Of course, once in power Martin veered left from where he was expected to take the party (to be fair, he was dragged there to some degree by the NDP), which cost him credibility with 'business Liberals'.

I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto, but the question is whether they hail from the 'left' or 'right' wings of the party, and I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ]

ghoris

Of course, the flip side of the coin is that there are a lot of Liberals who are convinced that to win they need to "unite the left" - ie win over NDP and Green voters. There is some credence to this theory - when Chretien was winning his majorities the NDP's vote was in single digits and the Greens weren't on the radar. Some of these left-Liberals have convinced themselves that Martin was perceived as a 'right-wing' leader which drove left-leaning voters to the NDP, Bloc and Greens in 2004 and 2006. Of course, once in power Martin veered left from where he was expected to take the party (to be fair, he was dragged there to some degree by the NDP), which cost him credibility with 'business Liberals'.

I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto, but the question is whether they hail from the 'left' or 'right' wings of the party, and I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ]

ghoris

Of course, the flip side of the coin is that there are a lot of Liberals who are convinced that to win they need to "unite the left" - ie win over NDP and Green voters. There is some credence to this theory - when Chretien was winning his majorities the NDP's vote was in single digits and the Greens weren't on the radar. Some of these left-Liberals have convinced themselves that Martin was perceived as a 'right-wing' leader which drove left-leaning voters to the NDP, Bloc and Greens in 2004 and 2006. Of course, once in power Martin veered left from where he was expected to take the party (to be fair, he was dragged there to some degree by the NDP), which cost him credibility with 'business Liberals'.

I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto, but the question is whether they hail from the 'left' or 'right' wings of the party, and I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ]

Stockholm

Chretien won three straight majority governments while running one of the most rightwing governments in our history. A lot of Liberals may think they should go back to the tried and true Liberal formula of massive cuts in social spending etc...

Stockholm

Chretien won three straight majority governments while running one of the most rightwing governments in our history. A lot of Liberals may think they should go back to the tried and true Liberal formula of massive cuts in social spending etc...

Stockholm

Chretien won three straight majority governments while running one of the most rightwing governments in our history. A lot of Liberals may think they should go back to the tried and true Liberal formula of massive cuts in social spending etc...

JeffWells

quote:


Originally posted by ghoris:
[b]I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?[/b]

Yup. And I think they'll be looking for a right-leaner who can talk a good progressive game. That was Chretien's strength. Manley can't do that, and Kennedy will be regarded as leaning too far left.

JeffWells

quote:


Originally posted by ghoris:
[b]I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?[/b]

Yup. And I think they'll be looking for a right-leaner who can talk a good progressive game. That was Chretien's strength. Manley can't do that, and Kennedy will be regarded as leaning too far left.

JeffWells

quote:


Originally posted by ghoris:
[b]I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?[/b]

Yup. And I think they'll be looking for a right-leaner who can talk a good progressive game. That was Chretien's strength. Manley can't do that, and Kennedy will be regarded as leaning too far left.

sofun

quote:


do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ][/QB]


They'd be wise to try the latter. I'd say there are more votes to be taken from the Cons than from the NDP and Greens. Dion was the most progressive Lib leader in decades yet he didn't galvanize NDP or Green voters.

About 10 days before this election most of the polls had the Lib-Con gap shrinking to about 5%. I don't think there's a lot of love for Stephen Harper among many who voted for him, and a more right-wing Lib leader will have a better chance of exploiting this. Someone at the Globe also wrote a column explaining why many many traditional Liberal supporters stayed home.

If the economy struggles as expected someone like Manley or McKenna will only see their chances enhanced. Rae would get slaughtered in Ontario. Maybe the Libs can help McCain steal another election and then they can convince Obama to immigrate.

sofun

quote:


do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ][/QB]


They'd be wise to try the latter. I'd say there are more votes to be taken from the Cons than from the NDP and Greens. Dion was the most progressive Lib leader in decades yet he didn't galvanize NDP or Green voters.

About 10 days before this election most of the polls had the Lib-Con gap shrinking to about 5%. I don't think there's a lot of love for Stephen Harper among many who voted for him, and a more right-wing Lib leader will have a better chance of exploiting this. Someone at the Globe also wrote a column explaining why many many traditional Liberal supporters stayed home.

If the economy struggles as expected someone like Manley or McKenna will only see their chances enhanced. Rae would get slaughtered in Ontario. Maybe the Libs can help McCain steal another election and then they can convince Obama to immigrate.

sofun

quote:


do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?

[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ][/QB]


They'd be wise to try the latter. I'd say there are more votes to be taken from the Cons than from the NDP and Greens. Dion was the most progressive Lib leader in decades yet he didn't galvanize NDP or Green voters.

About 10 days before this election most of the polls had the Lib-Con gap shrinking to about 5%. I don't think there's a lot of love for Stephen Harper among many who voted for him, and a more right-wing Lib leader will have a better chance of exploiting this. Someone at the Globe also wrote a column explaining why many many traditional Liberal supporters stayed home.

If the economy struggles as expected someone like Manley or McKenna will only see their chances enhanced. Rae would get slaughtered in Ontario. Maybe the Libs can help McCain steal another election and then they can convince Obama to immigrate.

St. Paul's Prog...

Rae could definitely take a lot of the NDP vote...look how poorly the NDP has fared against him in Toronto Centre. Obviously he appeals to a lot of people who vote NDP, though he has a lot of support on Bay Street as well.

I don't know how well McKenna would do in Ontario and Quebec, though he did turn New Brunswick into a one-party state and he could probably wipe the Tories out in the Maritimes.

St. Paul's Prog...

Rae could definitely take a lot of the NDP vote...look how poorly the NDP has fared against him in Toronto Centre. Obviously he appeals to a lot of people who vote NDP, though he has a lot of support on Bay Street as well.

I don't know how well McKenna would do in Ontario and Quebec, though he did turn New Brunswick into a one-party state and he could probably wipe the Tories out in the Maritimes.

St. Paul's Prog...

Rae could definitely take a lot of the NDP vote...look how poorly the NDP has fared against him in Toronto Centre. Obviously he appeals to a lot of people who vote NDP, though he has a lot of support on Bay Street as well.

I don't know how well McKenna would do in Ontario and Quebec, though he did turn New Brunswick into a one-party state and he could probably wipe the Tories out in the Maritimes.

Stockholm

Just because Rae does well with the Rosedale and Cabbagetown crowd is no guarantee that he would appeal at all to people in the rest of Canada (let alone Ontario) where he would probably be seen as a haughty upper class twit who ran Ontario into the ground.

Given the economic crisis we face and the Liberal losses in the 905 ridings, its hard to imagine a worst person for the Liberals to choose than a failed NDP premier like Rae.

Stockholm

Just because Rae does well with the Rosedale and Cabbagetown crowd is no guarantee that he would appeal at all to people in the rest of Canada (let alone Ontario) where he would probably be seen as a haughty upper class twit who ran Ontario into the ground.

Given the economic crisis we face and the Liberal losses in the 905 ridings, its hard to imagine a worst person for the Liberals to choose than a failed NDP premier like Rae.

Stockholm

Just because Rae does well with the Rosedale and Cabbagetown crowd is no guarantee that he would appeal at all to people in the rest of Canada (let alone Ontario) where he would probably be seen as a haughty upper class twit who ran Ontario into the ground.

Given the economic crisis we face and the Liberal losses in the 905 ridings, its hard to imagine a worst person for the Liberals to choose than a failed NDP premier like Rae.

JeffWells

quote:


Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive:
[b]Rae could definitely take a lot of the NDP vote...look how poorly the NDP has fared against him in Toronto Centre. [/b]

But Toronto Centre is hardly representative, even for Toronto. Bill Graham won 52% in 2006. Rae won 53% in 2008.

Outside the city I think Rae would be a disaster for the Liberals in Ontario, but I don't think they'll make another high-risk "lefty" choice after Dion.

JeffWells

quote:


Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive:
[b]Rae could definitely take a lot of the NDP vote...look how poorly the NDP has fared against him in Toronto Centre. [/b]

But Toronto Centre is hardly representative, even for Toronto. Bill Graham won 52% in 2006. Rae won 53% in 2008.

Outside the city I think Rae would be a disaster for the Liberals in Ontario, but I don't think they'll make another high-risk "lefty" choice after Dion.

JeffWells

quote:


Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive:
[b]Rae could definitely take a lot of the NDP vote...look how poorly the NDP has fared against him in Toronto Centre. [/b]

But Toronto Centre is hardly representative, even for Toronto. Bill Graham won 52% in 2006. Rae won 53% in 2008.

Outside the city I think Rae would be a disaster for the Liberals in Ontario, but I don't think they'll make another high-risk "lefty" choice after Dion.

greenandwhite

Stephen Taylor had it partially correct when he stated the Liberals need to go back and define themselves based on policy rather then the Leader being everything that the party needs. The Liberals need policy ideas and maybe the Green Shift was one of those defining policies but they also need a Leader and individual within the party who can sell the ideas without letting the Conservatives dominate the political discussion.

McKenna would bring a few things to the Liberal Party that would help them such as being not from either Ontario or Quebec, experience in the financial world and also some international experience. The problem as other have mentioned is that he is known to be to the right of the party and Liberals tend to run to the left and govern to the right and in order to do this it is much easier to do it with an individual seen as coming from the center of the party.

greenandwhite

Stephen Taylor had it partially correct when he stated the Liberals need to go back and define themselves based on policy rather then the Leader being everything that the party needs. The Liberals need policy ideas and maybe the Green Shift was one of those defining policies but they also need a Leader and individual within the party who can sell the ideas without letting the Conservatives dominate the political discussion.

McKenna would bring a few things to the Liberal Party that would help them such as being not from either Ontario or Quebec, experience in the financial world and also some international experience. The problem as other have mentioned is that he is known to be to the right of the party and Liberals tend to run to the left and govern to the right and in order to do this it is much easier to do it with an individual seen as coming from the center of the party.

greenandwhite

Stephen Taylor had it partially correct when he stated the Liberals need to go back and define themselves based on policy rather then the Leader being everything that the party needs. The Liberals need policy ideas and maybe the Green Shift was one of those defining policies but they also need a Leader and individual within the party who can sell the ideas without letting the Conservatives dominate the political discussion.

McKenna would bring a few things to the Liberal Party that would help them such as being not from either Ontario or Quebec, experience in the financial world and also some international experience. The problem as other have mentioned is that he is known to be to the right of the party and Liberals tend to run to the left and govern to the right and in order to do this it is much easier to do it with an individual seen as coming from the center of the party.

Sharon

quote:


Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle.

I've met him only a couple of times years ago and it was in very warm NDP circles where he no doubt felt he was among friends. In those circumstances, he was very personable and enjoyable.

Sharon

quote:


Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle.

I've met him only a couple of times years ago and it was in very warm NDP circles where he no doubt felt he was among friends. In those circumstances, he was very personable and enjoyable.

Sharon

quote:


Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle.

I've met him only a couple of times years ago and it was in very warm NDP circles where he no doubt felt he was among friends. In those circumstances, he was very personable and enjoyable.

Michelle

[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

I'm betting Stockholm's description of Rae would be totally different if Rae hadn't become a Liberal. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Michelle

[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

I'm betting Stockholm's description of Rae would be totally different if Rae hadn't become a Liberal. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Michelle

[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

I'm betting Stockholm's description of Rae would be totally different if Rae hadn't become a Liberal. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

janfromthebruce

Well, after Rae ran all over the country bashing New Democrats and as an extension people who voted NDP, he won't be the guy bringing NDP on board.
I have noted in other lib sites that supposed "real libs" thought the two ex-NDP premiers had too much license this election, and that neither would be considered for the lib leader, with their NDP baggage.
Libs have a funny way of wanting to get NDP votes.

janfromthebruce

Well, after Rae ran all over the country bashing New Democrats and as an extension people who voted NDP, he won't be the guy bringing NDP on board.
I have noted in other lib sites that supposed "real libs" thought the two ex-NDP premiers had too much license this election, and that neither would be considered for the lib leader, with their NDP baggage.
Libs have a funny way of wanting to get NDP votes.

janfromthebruce

Well, after Rae ran all over the country bashing New Democrats and as an extension people who voted NDP, he won't be the guy bringing NDP on board.
I have noted in other lib sites that supposed "real libs" thought the two ex-NDP premiers had too much license this election, and that neither would be considered for the lib leader, with their NDP baggage.
Libs have a funny way of wanting to get NDP votes.

NorthReport

Poor Bob Rae and Michael Ignatieff. After all their disloyal efforts to dump Dion, which they finally achieved, along comes the new Liberal messiah McKenna. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

quote:

Now that Stephane Dion has mercifully agreed to get lost, prominent Liberals and influential Canadians of all stripe are burning up the phone lines to Frank McKenna, practically begging the former New Brunswick premier to jump into the Liberal leadership race.

"He is being utterly flooded with calls from all over the place," says one of McKenna's closest confidants.


[url=http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Weston_Greg/2008/10/20/7149456-...

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]

NorthReport

Poor Bob Rae and Michael Ignatieff. After all their disloyal efforts to dump Dion, which they finally achieved, along comes the new Liberal messiah McKenna. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

quote:

Now that Stephane Dion has mercifully agreed to get lost, prominent Liberals and influential Canadians of all stripe are burning up the phone lines to Frank McKenna, practically begging the former New Brunswick premier to jump into the Liberal leadership race.

"He is being utterly flooded with calls from all over the place," says one of McKenna's closest confidants.


[url=http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Weston_Greg/2008/10/20/7149456-...

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]

NorthReport

Poor Bob Rae and Michael Ignatieff. After all their disloyal efforts to dump Dion, which they finally achieved, along comes the new Liberal messiah McKenna. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

quote:

Now that Stephane Dion has mercifully agreed to get lost, prominent Liberals and influential Canadians of all stripe are burning up the phone lines to Frank McKenna, practically begging the former New Brunswick premier to jump into the Liberal leadership race.

"He is being utterly flooded with calls from all over the place," says one of McKenna's closest confidants.


[url=http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Weston_Greg/2008/10/20/7149456-...

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]

Caissa

If McKenna is in,
He will win.

Caissa

If McKenna is in,
He will win.

Caissa

If McKenna is in,
He will win.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Shush now. No one wants to hear that. "The Liberals are a spent force. Its all over... repeat after me"....

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