Frank McKenna: Latest Liberal Messiah

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Cueball Cueball's picture

Shush now. No one wants to hear that. "The Liberals are a spent force. Its all over... repeat after me"....

Cueball Cueball's picture

Shush now. No one wants to hear that. "The Liberals are a spent force. Its all over... repeat after me"....

Michelle

quote:


Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
[b]Well, after Rae ran all over the country bashing New Democrats and as an extension people who voted NDP, he won't be the guy bringing NDP on board.[/b]

I think you're right about that. But I don't think anyone in the Liberal Party could get the NDP on board. The Liberal Party doesn't need NDP members or loyalists to vote for them. They want the swing voters who sway between Liberal and NDP at election time.

Michelle

quote:


Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
[b]Well, after Rae ran all over the country bashing New Democrats and as an extension people who voted NDP, he won't be the guy bringing NDP on board.[/b]

I think you're right about that. But I don't think anyone in the Liberal Party could get the NDP on board. The Liberal Party doesn't need NDP members or loyalists to vote for them. They want the swing voters who sway between Liberal and NDP at election time.

Michelle

quote:


Originally posted by janfromthebruce:
[b]Well, after Rae ran all over the country bashing New Democrats and as an extension people who voted NDP, he won't be the guy bringing NDP on board.[/b]

I think you're right about that. But I don't think anyone in the Liberal Party could get the NDP on board. The Liberal Party doesn't need NDP members or loyalists to vote for them. They want the swing voters who sway between Liberal and NDP at election time.

Caissa

I meant "in" the Liberal leadership race.

Caissa

I meant "in" the Liberal leadership race.

Caissa

I meant "in" the Liberal leadership race.

Stockholm

quote:


I'm betting Stockholm's description of Rae would be totally different if Rae hadn't become a Liberal.

and you'd be wrong. I first met Bob Rae when i was a teenager in the late 70s when he first ran for Parliament and got elected. I found him to be humourless, miserable guy with zero people skills back then and my view has never changed.

I didn't broadcast that when he was ONDP leader - but you don't have to look very far to find people who worked with him for 20 years in the NDP and never particularly liked him as a person. That is one of the (many) reasons why when he became a Liberal and ran for leader - there was virtually no one of any significance that followed Rae from the NDP to the Liberals. To get people to follow you like that - you need to have built up a personal following and have people who would crawl naked over a lot full of broken glass for you. Because Rae had such a miserable personality - no one felt close enough to him personally to want to follow him to the Liberals.

He tried and tried. He phoned just about every New Democrat of any significance across Canada - ex-Premiers, ex-provincial cabinet ministers, everyone who was in the ONDP caucus when he was leader etc... he begged and pleaded hoping that ANYONE from the NDP would appear by his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader. Everyone he called hung up on him.

Stockholm

quote:


I'm betting Stockholm's description of Rae would be totally different if Rae hadn't become a Liberal.

and you'd be wrong. I first met Bob Rae when i was a teenager in the late 70s when he first ran for Parliament and got elected. I found him to be humourless, miserable guy with zero people skills back then and my view has never changed.

I didn't broadcast that when he was ONDP leader - but you don't have to look very far to find people who worked with him for 20 years in the NDP and never particularly liked him as a person. That is one of the (many) reasons why when he became a Liberal and ran for leader - there was virtually no one of any significance that followed Rae from the NDP to the Liberals. To get people to follow you like that - you need to have built up a personal following and have people who would crawl naked over a lot full of broken glass for you. Because Rae had such a miserable personality - no one felt close enough to him personally to want to follow him to the Liberals.

He tried and tried. He phoned just about every New Democrat of any significance across Canada - ex-Premiers, ex-provincial cabinet ministers, everyone who was in the ONDP caucus when he was leader etc... he begged and pleaded hoping that ANYONE from the NDP would appear by his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader. Everyone he called hung up on him.

Stockholm

quote:


I'm betting Stockholm's description of Rae would be totally different if Rae hadn't become a Liberal.

and you'd be wrong. I first met Bob Rae when i was a teenager in the late 70s when he first ran for Parliament and got elected. I found him to be humourless, miserable guy with zero people skills back then and my view has never changed.

I didn't broadcast that when he was ONDP leader - but you don't have to look very far to find people who worked with him for 20 years in the NDP and never particularly liked him as a person. That is one of the (many) reasons why when he became a Liberal and ran for leader - there was virtually no one of any significance that followed Rae from the NDP to the Liberals. To get people to follow you like that - you need to have built up a personal following and have people who would crawl naked over a lot full of broken glass for you. Because Rae had such a miserable personality - no one felt close enough to him personally to want to follow him to the Liberals.

He tried and tried. He phoned just about every New Democrat of any significance across Canada - ex-Premiers, ex-provincial cabinet ministers, everyone who was in the ONDP caucus when he was leader etc... he begged and pleaded hoping that ANYONE from the NDP would appear by his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader. Everyone he called hung up on him.

Cueball Cueball's picture

One really has to question what appeal he had for the ONDP when he was elected leader. It was some kind of affirmative action vote of some kind? Was the NDP so under-represented in the friendless, uncharismatic, neo-liberal department, that they felt obliged to make him leader?

Cueball Cueball's picture

One really has to question what appeal he had for the ONDP when he was elected leader. It was some kind of affirmative action vote of some kind? Was the NDP so under-represented in the friendless, uncharismatic, neo-liberal department, that they felt obliged to make him leader?

Cueball Cueball's picture

One really has to question what appeal he had for the ONDP when he was elected leader. It was some kind of affirmative action vote of some kind? Was the NDP so under-represented in the friendless, uncharismatic, neo-liberal department, that they felt obliged to make him leader?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

quote:


He tried and tried. He phoned just about every New Democrat of any significance across Canada - ex-Premiers, ex-provincial cabinet ministers, everyone who was in the ONDP caucus when he was leader etc... he begged and pleaded hoping that ANYONE from the NDP would appear by his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader. Everyone he called hung up on him.

How could you possibly know this?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

quote:


He tried and tried. He phoned just about every New Democrat of any significance across Canada - ex-Premiers, ex-provincial cabinet ministers, everyone who was in the ONDP caucus when he was leader etc... he begged and pleaded hoping that ANYONE from the NDP would appear by his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader. Everyone he called hung up on him.

How could you possibly know this?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

quote:


He tried and tried. He phoned just about every New Democrat of any significance across Canada - ex-Premiers, ex-provincial cabinet ministers, everyone who was in the ONDP caucus when he was leader etc... he begged and pleaded hoping that ANYONE from the NDP would appear by his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader. Everyone he called hung up on him.

How could you possibly know this?

Stockholm

I've spoken to people who got calls.

Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party.

He failed.

Cueball Cueball's picture

He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Stockholm

I've spoken to people who got calls.

Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party.

He failed.

Cueball Cueball's picture

He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Stockholm

I've spoken to people who got calls.

Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party.

He failed.

Cueball Cueball's picture

He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

josh

Where does [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081021.wliveclark10... Leblanc[/url] fit on the Liberal spectrum?

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: josh ]

josh

Where does [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081021.wliveclark10... Leblanc[/url] fit on the Liberal spectrum?

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: josh ]

josh

Where does [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081021.wliveclark10... Leblanc[/url] fit on the Liberal spectrum?

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: josh ]

-=+=-

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP.

Not sure how much traction they got though.

-=+=-

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP.

Not sure how much traction they got though.

-=+=-

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP.

Not sure how much traction they got though.

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]I've spoken to people who got calls.

Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party.

He failed.[/b]


I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.

I don't know if Robin Sears officially joined the Liberal Party but he was shilling for Rae in the last leadership campaign. If Rae succeeded in pulling Sears out of the NDP then the NDP should be grateful.

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]I've spoken to people who got calls.

Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party.

He failed.[/b]


I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.

I don't know if Robin Sears officially joined the Liberal Party but he was shilling for Rae in the last leadership campaign. If Rae succeeded in pulling Sears out of the NDP then the NDP should be grateful.

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]I've spoken to people who got calls.

Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party.

He failed.[/b]


I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.

I don't know if Robin Sears officially joined the Liberal Party but he was shilling for Rae in the last leadership campaign. If Rae succeeded in pulling Sears out of the NDP then the NDP should be grateful.

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

Well Tarek was persona non grata in the Ontario NDP since the late 1990s and his holiday card list shenanigans. He tried to get back into the party's good graces by supporting Layton in the leadership campaign rather than Comartin (who was seen as having a stronger anti-war position and had greater support among Muslims and antiwar activists in the party). This was likely an opportunistic calculation based on the fact that Layton was the clear frontrunner. But after backing the winner failed to boost his status in the NDP, Tarek jumped aboard the Bob Rae train to another station.

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

Well Tarek was persona non grata in the Ontario NDP since the late 1990s and his holiday card list shenanigans. He tried to get back into the party's good graces by supporting Layton in the leadership campaign rather than Comartin (who was seen as having a stronger anti-war position and had greater support among Muslims and antiwar activists in the party). This was likely an opportunistic calculation based on the fact that Layton was the clear frontrunner. But after backing the winner failed to boost his status in the NDP, Tarek jumped aboard the Bob Rae train to another station.

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]He got Tark Fatah! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

Well Tarek was persona non grata in the Ontario NDP since the late 1990s and his holiday card list shenanigans. He tried to get back into the party's good graces by supporting Layton in the leadership campaign rather than Comartin (who was seen as having a stronger anti-war position and had greater support among Muslims and antiwar activists in the party). This was likely an opportunistic calculation based on the fact that Layton was the clear frontrunner. But after backing the winner failed to boost his status in the NDP, Tarek jumped aboard the Bob Rae train to another station.

Cueball Cueball's picture

quote:


Originally posted by -=+=-:
[b]

And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP.

Not sure how much traction they got though.[/b]


Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?

Cueball Cueball's picture

quote:


Originally posted by -=+=-:
[b]

And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP.

Not sure how much traction they got though.[/b]


Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?

Cueball Cueball's picture

quote:


Originally posted by -=+=-:
[b]

And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP.

Not sure how much traction they got though.[/b]


Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]

Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?[/b]


Rae's an excellent public performer and quickly became a star after first getting elected to the House of Commons in 1978.

The Ontario NDP looked to be on the precipice of power in the 1970s under Stephen Lewis. However, party fortunes sank under Lewis's successor, Michael Cassidy - in his one and only election as leader in 1981 the NDP went from the 27-28% popular support they enjoyed throughout the 1970s down to only 21% and lost 12 seats and the Tories regained their majority after 6 years of minority government.

Cassidy was persuaded to leave and the NDP was in search of a star to take the party back to where it had been and beyond and party movers and shakers headhunted Rae as the perfect choice to do that.

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]

Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?[/b]


Rae's an excellent public performer and quickly became a star after first getting elected to the House of Commons in 1978.

The Ontario NDP looked to be on the precipice of power in the 1970s under Stephen Lewis. However, party fortunes sank under Lewis's successor, Michael Cassidy - in his one and only election as leader in 1981 the NDP went from the 27-28% popular support they enjoyed throughout the 1970s down to only 21% and lost 12 seats and the Tories regained their majority after 6 years of minority government.

Cassidy was persuaded to leave and the NDP was in search of a star to take the party back to where it had been and beyond and party movers and shakers headhunted Rae as the perfect choice to do that.

aka Mycroft

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]

Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?[/b]


Rae's an excellent public performer and quickly became a star after first getting elected to the House of Commons in 1978.

The Ontario NDP looked to be on the precipice of power in the 1970s under Stephen Lewis. However, party fortunes sank under Lewis's successor, Michael Cassidy - in his one and only election as leader in 1981 the NDP went from the 27-28% popular support they enjoyed throughout the 1970s down to only 21% and lost 12 seats and the Tories regained their majority after 6 years of minority government.

Cassidy was persuaded to leave and the NDP was in search of a star to take the party back to where it had been and beyond and party movers and shakers headhunted Rae as the perfect choice to do that.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?[/b]

The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.

No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.

I think that McKenna or Ignatieff would make excellent leaders of the Liberal party. I think it would make them far more competitive as well. In BC the Liberal vote all but collapsed and it was the Cons who benefited the most from that collapse. I want the Liberals fighting to regain those votes lost to the Conservatives.

Oh yeah and one of their lead players in BC this time was Rae. He carried the bash the NDP message to every NDP riding he could find. He didn't erode our support but the Liberals disappeared. Go Iggy Go win back that vote from the cons.

Rae is going to finish off his "illustrious" career as a has been who spent his political capital (all three cents worth) trying to defeat the left and not the conservatives. The liberals deserve "progressives" like Bob and thank you very much for taking him off our hands so we can wash away the stench.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?[/b]

The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.

No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.

I think that McKenna or Ignatieff would make excellent leaders of the Liberal party. I think it would make them far more competitive as well. In BC the Liberal vote all but collapsed and it was the Cons who benefited the most from that collapse. I want the Liberals fighting to regain those votes lost to the Conservatives.

Oh yeah and one of their lead players in BC this time was Rae. He carried the bash the NDP message to every NDP riding he could find. He didn't erode our support but the Liberals disappeared. Go Iggy Go win back that vote from the cons.

Rae is going to finish off his "illustrious" career as a has been who spent his political capital (all three cents worth) trying to defeat the left and not the conservatives. The liberals deserve "progressives" like Bob and thank you very much for taking him off our hands so we can wash away the stench.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?[/b]

The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.

No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.

I think that McKenna or Ignatieff would make excellent leaders of the Liberal party. I think it would make them far more competitive as well. In BC the Liberal vote all but collapsed and it was the Cons who benefited the most from that collapse. I want the Liberals fighting to regain those votes lost to the Conservatives.

Oh yeah and one of their lead players in BC this time was Rae. He carried the bash the NDP message to every NDP riding he could find. He didn't erode our support but the Liberals disappeared. Go Iggy Go win back that vote from the cons.

Rae is going to finish off his "illustrious" career as a has been who spent his political capital (all three cents worth) trying to defeat the left and not the conservatives. The liberals deserve "progressives" like Bob and thank you very much for taking him off our hands so we can wash away the stench.

Stockholm

quote:


But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP.

The same reason why someone as friendless and personally uncharismatic as Richard Nixon got nominated to run for President of the US three times.

Stockholm

quote:


But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP.

The same reason why someone as friendless and personally uncharismatic as Richard Nixon got nominated to run for President of the US three times.

Stockholm

quote:


But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP.

The same reason why someone as friendless and personally uncharismatic as Richard Nixon got nominated to run for President of the US three times.

alisea

He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.

I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant.

I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back.

I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.

alisea

He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.

I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant.

I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back.

I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.

alisea

He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.

I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant.

I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back.

I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.

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