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Get ready for Justin-mania!

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MegB
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

autoworker wrote:
If Pierre Trudeau was such a right-wing despot, then why did Castro attend his funeral?

Never said Trudeau was right-wing.  Far from it, I believe.  Surely you don't believe that despotism only resides on the right?  

Trudeau was an excellent diplomat in the school of rock 'n roll diplomacy.  He was cool.  He did a pirouette for Queen Liz.  But he was also an "enlightened despot".  During his first term he ruled the Liberal Party much in the same way that Harper rules the CP, but with more style.  I suppose you could call it "benevolent dictatorship", but the approval of the War Measures Act probably didn't have to be whipped. Pierre Laporte shows up dead in the trunk of a car, it's scary. But not "suppress the rights of Canadians who speak a certain language" scary.

Regardless, JT is not his father.  It remains to be seen what he can do as head of a party that is no longer the Official Opposition.


laine lowe
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Joined: Dec 15 2006

DP


laine lowe
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Joined: Dec 15 2006

Unlike Harper, PET had talented Ministers and appreciated their intelligence and input.

Also, he charmed Castro with much more than a smattering of Spanish. Trudeau was quite fluent.


Arthur Cramer
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Joined: Nov 30 2010

On Huff Post, I have been battling with Libs and going after them for trying to say that they aren't Corporatist and that JT is a real lefty. They come back and so basiclly, "oh no, Mulcair has abandoned Jack Layton's Principles (bless be his memory), and Mulcair has moved the NDP to the right. Aside from the irony of how the attacked Jack during the campaign, (anyone remember the "Smilin' Jack" smear), it is clear that is likely going to be a part of their attack. That the Tories, and believe it or not, the NDP, are both "right wing" parties. Can you believe it?


Arthur Cramer
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Joined: Nov 30 2010

Rebecca West wrote:

autoworker wrote:
If Pierre Trudeau was such a right-wing despot, then why did Castro attend his funeral?

Never said Trudeau was right-wing.  Far from it, I believe.  Surely you don't believe that despotism only resides on the right?  

Trudeau was an excellent diplomat in the school of rock 'n roll diplomacy.  He was cool.  He did a pirouette for Queen Liz.  But he was also an "enlightened despot".  During his first term he ruled the Liberal Party much in the same way that Harper rules the CP, but with more style.  I suppose you could call it "benevolent dictatorship", but the approval of the War Measures Act probably didn't have to be whipped. Pierre Laporte shows up dead in the trunk of a car, it's scary. But not "suppress the rights of Canadians who speak a certain language" scary.

Regardless, JT is not his father.  It remains to be seen what he can do as head of a party that is no longer the Official Opposition.

My father, who fought overseas during the war, and was a life-long CCFer/NDPer never forgave Trudueau for that and said that that one act on Trudeau's part undid any good he did as PM. To hear anyone sing the praises of Trudeau, was for my father, who fought the Fascists overseas and knew those who were a threat to democracy when he say them, was to say the least, a bit much. Sorry, I agree with my dad. Try all you want, Trudeau wasn't no Saint, and had a strong authoritarian streak in him.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Castro properly respected him because he refused to support the Vietnam war or the sanctions and blockade against Cuba.  They may even have developed a personal relationship when the negotiations took place to have the FLQ terrorists sent to Cuba.   Given they were both extremely intelligent men with well thought out ideas I can understand how they might come to respect each other.


socialdemocrati...
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Joined: Jan 10 2012

I'm probably more of a fan of Trudeau (Pierre) than the average NDP voter. He made an honest attempt at a national energy strategy. He took Tommy Douglas's ideas for universal healthcare and civil rights, and turned them into federal programs. But the War Measures Act is an ugly stain on his reputation, and on our country's history.


autoworker
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Joined: Dec 21 2008
Pierre Trudeau himself later admitted that the War Measures Act was an overreaction to the October Crisis, but the law applied equally across the country, and didn't target a specific linguistic minority. Besides, from what I gather, those who were arrested obtained a certain cachet, in some circles. All in all, it hardly compares with Pinochet's Chile.

kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

The RCMP broke doors in around the country to arrest people they could not under our democratic system.  The people they arrested in other provinces had nothing to do with the FLQ they were just your garden variety criminal whose rights suddenly did not exist.

I think that the overreaction to the real violence of bombs and hostages is what brought the PQ to power, so in many ways Pierre helped unleash the most powerful progressive force in the country. 


autoworker
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Joined: Dec 21 2008
I don't remember anything about doors being broken outside Quebec, but I do know that the Quebec government requested that special powers be granted to authorities to handle the crisis. If I'm not mistaken, the National Assembly, including PQ members, voted to that effect. As for the PQ victory, six years later, I think it had more to do with corruption (Cliche Commission) strikes, and Olympic cost overruns, not to mention Bill 23 and the jailing of union leaders-- an election backdrop not unlike today's most recent iteration. Anyway, the government now has more effective means to overide civil liberties and democracy. If Trudeaumania triggers some latent PTSD within the body politic, then perhaps it requires some kind of collective Gestalt therapy.

janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

Sorry to burst your bubble Rebecca, but Gerrard Kennedy was a lightweight Min of Education in Ontario. He did a good talk but he just couldn't get things done. So when he went off to bigger and better things, all those education file drawers were empty - and the next Min of Ed had to start from scratch.

Gerrard is another pretty pony and if you noticed, he went missing in action - literally - when Iggy was a head of the good ship Liberal. He was given a cushy teaching job at Ryerson (liberal luck for someone who didn't even finish a BA) and was doing academia rather than taking care of the MP business he was being paid for.


MegB
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

Far from bursting my bubble Jan, you're simply pointing out facts about the man's career that I didn't include in my entirely non-comprehensive post about him.  


Arthur Cramer
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Joined: Nov 30 2010

I've been seeing a lot of this on Huff Post when I post there. That is, the accusation that Mulcair is a right winger and that the LPC is the only real left wing alternative. Anyone think Trudeau will try to use this?

 


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Iggy did and people didn't believe him.  Remember those really good hard hitting ads on the fighter jets.  The Liberals seem to think the message will be better received from a flake than from an apologist for American Exceptionalism and torture.

The Liberals have spent a century pretending they are a party of the left. It is doubtful they will change their tune or that if elected they will govern from the left. 


MegB
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

autoworker wrote:
Pierre Trudeau himself later admitted that the War Measures Act was an overreaction to the October Crisis, but the law applied equally across the country, and didn't target a specific linguistic minority. Besides, from what I gather, those who were arrested obtained a certain cachet, in some circles. All in all, it hardly compares with Pinochet's Chile.

1. Almost all arrests were made in Quebec, where francophones were and are the linguistic majority. Your point is a straw man argument.

2. What you gather is quite different from what I actually remember (yes, I'm old enough to have quite vivid memories of the October Crisis).  There is nothing cool about having police drag you out of your bed in the middle of the night and incarcerate you without cause.

3. If you want to be taken seriously here, you might want to forward arguments that are factual, rather than serve as an apologist for what is indefensible. Trudeau regretting his actions - long after the fact - does not in any way mitigate what actually happened. 

I'm not PET-bashing. I actually voted for Trudeau. I'm stating facts as I remember them.  


MegB
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

Arthur Cramer wrote:

I've been seeing a lot of this on Huff Post when I post there. That is, the accusation that Mulcair is a right winger and that the LPC is the only real left wing alternative. Anyone think Trudeau will try to use this?

 

Those must be comments from people living south of the border.  They confuse Liberal with liberal. 

But seriously, it's no longer a matter of 'left' and 'right' when your points of comparison are so bleak. Anyone even slightly to the left of the Tea Party is a flaming socialist. To a genuine socialist Mulcair IS a right-winger.  JT has all the pedigree and optics to present himself as a 'safe socialist', so I can't imagine him not exploiting it.  


autoworker
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Joined: Dec 21 2008
Rebecca West wrote:

autoworker wrote:
Pierre Trudeau himself later admitted that the War Measures Act was an overreaction to the October Crisis, but the law applied equally across the country, and didn't target a specific linguistic minority. Besides, from what I gather, those who were arrested obtained a certain cachet, in some circles. All in all, it hardly compares with Pinochet's Chile.

1. Almost all arrests were made in Quebec, where francophones were and are the linguistic majority. Your point is a straw man argument.

2. What you gather is quite different from what I actually remember (yes, I'm old enough to have quite vivid memories of the October Crisis).  There is nothing cool about having police drag you out of your bed in the middle of the night and incarcerate you without cause.

3. If you want to be taken seriously here, you might want to forward arguments that are factual, rather than serve as an apologist for what is indefensible. Trudeau regretting his actions - long after the fact - does not in any way mitigate what actually happened. 

I'm not PET-bashing. I actually voted for Trudeau. I'm stating facts as I remember them.  

Straw man? The War Mesures Act was invoked at the request of the National Assembly. Arrests aren't "cool", but neither are kidnapping, bombings, and murder. I too remember the bombing of mailboxes, the Montreal Stock Exchange, and to use your frame of reference: the myriad bomb threats and evacuations at my minority language school (we were children, then). Enough said.

socialdemocrati...
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Joined: Jan 10 2012

Arresting people for crimes isn't authoritarian.

But using a few crimes to justify mass arrests without due process?

Funny how quickly so-called "progressives" fold their rights to the first politician who promises to keep them safe.


Brachina
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Joined: Feb 15 2012

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

Arresting people for crimes isn't authoritarian.

But using a few crimes to justify mass arrests without due process?

Funny how quickly so-called "progressives" fold their rights to the first politician who promises to keep them safe.

Which Progressives, because so far its just Autoworker and his cheerleading for Justin after bashing Horwath for not being progressive enough has me doubting his progressive cred.

autoworker
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Joined: Dec 21 2008
Brachina wrote:

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

Arresting people for crimes isn't authoritarian.

But using a few crimes to justify mass arrests without due process?

Funny how quickly so-called "progressives" fold their rights to the first politician who promises to keep them safe.

Which Progressives, because so far its just Autoworker and his cheerleading for Justin after bashing Horwath for not being progressive enough has me doubting his progressive cred.
I don't recall having said much of anything about Horwath. As for cheerleading, it seems that anything other than Trudeau bashing is taken as an endorsement around here. As for Justin, he's popular because he engages people who see themselves tapping into his passion for Canada, by rejecting both the cynicism of Harper, and the disingenuous triangulation of Mulcair. People like the feeling they get when they meet Trudeau. So, you can go on about progressive credibility, but, honestly, most people are hoping for a return to the status quo ante.

Arthur Cramer
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Joined: Nov 30 2010

" don't recall having said much of anything about Horwath. As for cheerleading, it seems that anything other than Trudeau bashing is taken as an endorsement around here. As for Justin, he's popular because he engages people who see themselves tapping into his passion for Canada, by rejecting both the cynicism of Harper, and the disingenuous triangulation of Mulcair. People like the feeling they get when they meet Trudeau. So, you can go on about progressive credibility, but, honestly, most people are hoping for a return to the status quo ante. "

Well, first of all, "people like the feeling when they meet Trudeau". And how do we know this is as many as  you imply or think? Did you ask them? Who says, the Libs and the MSM?

As for the "disingenuous trianglulation of Mulcari", if that wasn't a frame without susbtance, I don't know what is. Again who says, you, the  Libs, the MSM?

I guess regarding your post, time will tell.


autoworker
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Joined: Dec 21 2008
Well Arthur, people who have met Justin have told me as much, as have many who remember the emotional eulogy he delivered at his father's funeral. Yes, commentary in the MSM confirms that. So what? As for Mulcair's triangulation stategy of saying one thing about 'Dutch Disease', the 'tar sands', and monetary policy in Ontario, while speaking against pipelines to the Pacific, but promoting 'oil sands' pipelines to Eastern refineries, while straddling the Rideau and saying nothing substantial about anything germane to Quebec, and the National Question (lest he upset his temperamental constituency there), there's plenty to frame what's beginning to look like a dysfunctional Opposition. Oh yeah, when will Canadians get to know whats up with Canada's Iran decision? Is it any wonder that voters are hearing the sizzle on the BBQ circuit?

janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

geez, I didn't get all warm and fuzzy when I met Trudeau and heard him speak. I saw someone who was a hypocrit and didn't mind bashing a new young female MP, single mom, because it was popular - than - until the libs and their supporters went to far, started to look bitter, and Ruth Ellen B. came off looking better than the dogs of the liberal party.

Trudeau showed he was "just the same" and in fact made him less of a person than he always is trying so hard to project. You know, most Canadians are loyal to Canada and libs wrapping themselves up into the Canadian flag makes me a tad uncomfortable. What they are trying to do, compete with the Republican Party of the USA?


autoworker
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Joined: Dec 21 2008
janfromthebruce wrote:

geez, I didn't get all warm and fuzzy when I met Trudeau and heard him speak. I saw someone who was a hypocrit and didn't mind bashing a new young female MP, single mom, because it was popular - than - until the libs and their supporters went to far, started to look bitter, and Ruth Ellen B. came off looking better than the dogs of the liberal party.

Trudeau showed he was "just the same" and in fact made him less of a person than he always is trying so hard to project. You know, most Canadians are loyal to Canada and libs wrapping themselves up into the Canadian flag makes me a tad uncomfortable. What they are trying to do, compete with the Republican Party of the USA?

Your maudlin critique of Justin's supporters is a predictable reflex in these threads. Let's face it, Canadian politics is small-minded and nasty in the trenches. It's what turns people off politics. No doubt it will get nastier, and alienate more Canadians.

Arthur Cramer
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Joined: Nov 30 2010

Autowoker:

Don't you get busy from all that spin?

And I say it again, why would any Union member in their right mind vote Liberal?


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Arthur - many union members vote conservative. And liberal. And NDP. And Bloc. Workers have been betrayed by every single one of them. I tend to look for the least of the evils, or at individuals who are worthy, or at particular political stands at important turning points that are worth supporting. We're all "in our right minds". It's not very useful to question the mental fitness of those who don't religiously support the same party - right, wrong, whatever, forever - as whichever one you support.

Those who can't listen to what an individual is saying, and are just eager to find the right "label" for that person, are probably paying too much attention to labels.

 


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

I have no problem imaging Justin is just as charming as Bill Vander Zalm another no brains populist.  I met Bill in meetings and found him very personable and on the campaign trail extremely effective. The fact that our elections are a popularity contest based on personal charm highlights the lack of democracy in Canada. No engagement with the people just glad handing to get a vote every four years.


Arthur Cramer
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Joined: Nov 30 2010

Well Autoworker, for the sake of discussion lets accept the premise that the party for which you vote dissapoints sometimes. It doesn't change the fact the NDP hasn't had its kick at the can, and I want it to have its chance and the chance to dissapoint.

As to the best of what is available, plenty has been written about the things PET did that were bad for labour and for working people. If son is like father, we'll get another charismatic leader who ultimatley will over stay his welcome, dissapoint and stick it to working people.

Historically, the Lib ALWAYS run left and then govern right, ALWAYS, without fail! So, if you think voting for JT is a good choice, go ahead, but don't expect those of us who post here to approve. I don't need to know anything else about JT then that he is a Lib, and Libs always run left and govern right. And so,  he will. Its inevitable, like the sun coming up in the morning, and the stars shining at night. My departed granfather told my departed father (blessed be their memories), given the opportunity, working people will vote against their own best interest every time. If we accept your premise that Union members vote Tory and Lib, then it just proves my grandfather was right. My grandfather by the way had been a member of the English Labour Party in the late 19th Centuary before coming to Canada; I never met. He was long gone when I was old enough to strart of having memories that I could recall. JT simply becomes another chance for working people to shot themselves in the foot with the bullet getting the NDP in the back.

I don't see why I should be happy at the prospect of one more Lib PM who is going to take us through more of the same. If you want to remain idealistic, or obective, or whatever else you want to label it as, well, as we used to say in the Navy, "fill your boots", but I know better then to sail with a trailing sea in a hurricane, so don't expect me to do anything else.


Aristotleded24
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Joined: May 24 2005

autoworker wrote:
As for Mulcair's triangulation stategy of saying one thing about 'Dutch Disease', the 'tar sands', and monetary policy in Ontario, while speaking against pipelines to the Pacific, but promoting 'oil sands' pipelines to Eastern refineries

Sounds a great deal like the old National Energy Policy. Which Prime Minister brought that in again?

autoworker wrote:
while straddling the Rideau and saying nothing substantial about anything germane to Quebec, and the National Question (lest he upset his temperamental constituency there)

What is there to say? It's not a huge issue in Quebec. The sovereigntist parties do not have control of the National Assembly, and former sovereigntist Premier Jacques Parizeau even campaigned against his own former party because he didn't feel they were hardline enough on that question. It's a case of the media trying to bring up old wounds that nobody in Quebec wishes to revisit.


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

This whole idea of a popularity contest winning the day, well I don't think that is true in all regards. Take Jack, elected leader in 2003, went on to win steady growth and although he eventually became a popular all around leader that did not happen until about 2008, and his "chisma" happen in 2011. It took remaining steady to social democratic goals, doing what he said, and showing fortitude.


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