Goodbye, NDP

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Rev Pesky
Goodbye, NDP

I have voted NDP for as long as I can remember, both federally and provincially. No more. From here on I will either hope to have an leftist option such as the Communist party, or I will not vote. 

I admit that this decision (which, in that it's only a single vote, won't affect much) was taken after the disgusting treatment of Erin Weir, but that is certainly not the first, nor the worst, thing that prompts my decision.

Here is a list in no particular order:

The decision to remove references to 'socialism' from the party constitution

The election of Thomas Mucair as party leader

The decision to leave Mulcair as a lame duck leader for 18 months after the 2015 election

The decision to prevent Paul Manly from running for the party nomination in Nanaimo-Ladysmith

The treatment of others in the party who voiced support for Palestinians

The complete lack of a progressive election platform 

The election of Jagmeet Singh as party leader

The refusal of Singh to try get into the House of Commons

The inability of the party to take a stand vis a vis the conflict between the Alberta NDP and the BC NDP 

The pathetic treatment of Erin Weir, as the straw that broke the camel's back.

There's more, but the above items are just off the top of my head.

I no longer consider the NDP to be a progressive alternative, nor do I consider them to be a party of any intergrity or principle.

Goodbye, NDP.

 

Issues Pages: 
Misfit Misfit's picture

Amen!

Misfit Misfit's picture

Actually, I take back the 100% agreement. I don't know what I think yet of Jagmeet Singh.

voice of the damned

The inability of the party to take a stand vis a vis the conflict between the Alberta NDP and the BC NDP 

Hm. A federal third-party taking a stand on a dispute between two provincial governments. There's a bit to untangle there.

First off, are you suggesting that they should take a stand within the federal arena itself, ie. federal MPs should get up in the House and put forth questions and statements to the effect of "Mr. Speaker, we fully support the position of [whichever province they agree with] and oppose the position of [whichever province they disagree with]!"

Or do you mean that party officials should take a stand at the level of inter-party realtions, ie. at the next nationwide NDP convention, federal party bigwigs should tell whichever provincial party they disagree with to change the policies that are so antagonizing the other party?

 

R.E.Wood

I've already said Goodbye to the current NDP, and come to terms with no longer supporting the party that I've supported for the past 30 years (well, I started saying Goodbye during Mulcair's interminable tenure and my first time not voting NDP federally was the last election). It's a weird grieving process to go through for someone who's politically-minded, to no longer feel there's a party that I can support and vote for.  Who knows - maybe the next iteration of the NDP will be something we can once again support, but I really doubt that - I think the NDP has completely lost its way. My hope is a new federal party will rise.

SocialJustice101

Rev Pevsky, what kind of specific progressive policies would you like to see?  You didn't mention one in your list, aside maybe from "supporting Palestinians."

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Ideology and behaviour are very important reasons why you would want to support or oppose a given Party. However defeating another Party may be the driving political imperative, which may override your disgust at the ideological or moral state of a given Party. If enough of us vote for Party Y, we can get rid of Party X. Even if Party X and Party Y are ideologically the same, by electing we get to see a new set of faces who do not remind us of the old set of faces.

Of course, we have time to get angry enough to hate Party Y, which may make us wish to vote for Party Z or even Party X again, the latter having been in the doghouse for a sufficient period of time.

As we have seen recently here, "strategic voting" is only good if the Liberals or the NDP benefit, but definitely not the other. This delightful hypocrisy always keeps me around. 

Some who have voted NDP may wish to vote for the Conservatives, because their desire to destroy the Liberals (or even the NDP, for this is doghouse time for them) is greater than any moral or ideological considerations.

As it is, we can choose from torture of various different colours. Surely, it is just a matter of taste. Red and Green should never be seen, as the old saying goes, but the same applies to Blue and Orange. I have never been an Orangeman myself, however I do not pay tribute to Rome either.

SocialJustice101

The purpose of politicians and parties is to enact specific policies.   Yes, it would be great if the politicians were also principled, honest and likeable human beings, but that's just gravy.     That's not a luxury we can always expect under the first-past-the-post system.

Rev Pesky

From Social Justice101:

Rev Pevsky, what kind of specific progressive policies would you like to see?  You didn't mention one in your list, aside maybe from "supporting Palestinians."

It never ceases to amaze me how people can read things and miss the point entirely.

My reason for bringing up 'the Palestinians' wasn't to overtly suggest the party support them, although that's not a bad idea. It was to point out that the party has actively discouraged those who have supported the Palestinians, to the point of disallowing them from even running for a riding nomination.

How is it possible for an ostensibly left-wing party to abandon human rights in such a manner? It does lead to asking under what other circumstances they would abandon human rights.

Human rights are, after all, a core principle of the left. Or at least they used to be. 

SocialJustice101

I have not heard about the candidates in question.   Did the NDP feel those candidates crossed a certain line while expressing their view?   The Middle East isn't exactly a bastion of human rights, overall. 

Any other specific progressive issues you are concerned with?  

 

WWWTT

There's more, but the above items are just off the top of my head.

Ya keep going them. And I'll keep reading your points.

Obviously there are tens of thousands/legions of Canadian voters whom feel the same way as you.

And voting communist is not a wasted vote! Actually it's the opposite. Voting anything other than communist is the real waste of vote!

SocialJustice101

Because communists have just been so awesome for everybody?

NorthReport

Obviously Babble's joke thread of the year, at least so far.

Rev Pesky

From SocialJustice101:

I have not heard about the candidates in question.

If you had read my opening post, you would know of one. I mentioned Paul Manly, the son of former NDP MP  Jim Manly. Paul was refused the right to run for the nomination in the Nanaimo-Ladysmith riding.

According to Manly:

while "the local riding executive approved" his candidacy for the NDP nomination in Nanaimo-Ladysmith, it was "the federal NDP executive" who would not let him run as a candidate.

"I was told verbally on the phone, that the reason was in relation to what I said and did when my father was in Israel. There was also concern that I was running to make Israel and Palestine an election issue."

If you want more names. These are all from the 2015 election:

Quebec NDP candidate Hans Marotte expressed past support for the first Palestinian intifada, a mass movement against Israel’s occupation to which Israel responded with the “broken bones” policy of violent repression. When the Conservatives dug up his comments, Marotte said it was proof they couldn’t find anything more recent. He didn’t recant, but he was effectively silenced.

Ontario NDP candidate Matthew Rowlinson had to issue a statement apologizing for signing an “incendiary and inaccurate” letter that included the documented and provable claim that ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is ongoing in Jerusalem.

Then there are those who have been dumped by the party. Nova Scotia NDP candidate Morgan Wheeldon had to resign for calling Israel’s 2014 attack on Gaza, which killed more than 2,200 people including more than 500 children, a war crime. NDP member Syed Hyder Ali, who had wanted to run in Edmonton, was told to withdraw his name — because he also said that Israel was guilty of war crimes. Jerry Natanine of Nunavut, the mayor of Clyde River, was tossed because, in his words, “I often side with the Palestinians because of all the hardship they are facing and because nothing is being re-built over there.”

 

SocialJustice101

"I was told verbally on the phone, that the reason was in relation to what I said and did when my father was in Israel. "

- What exacty did he say and do?   As a politician, you have to maintain a certain level of professionalism and objectivity while expressing your views.  (I'm gonna ignore the you-know-who phenomenon, on this one.  We haven't sunk to this level yet, in Canada.)

So is the Israel-Palestine conflict the only issue you are concerned with? 

Rev Pesky

From SocialJustice101:

Because communists have just been so awesome for everybody?

Some people have forgotten that prior to the Stalinization of the Communist Party of Canada, there were many very progressive leftists in that party. Many were purged by the Stalinists, but remained loyal to the CP program.

In Vancouver, Harry Rankin was a perennial favourite in civic elections, very often topping the polls. Other communists ran in city and provincial elections across Canada.

Back in the day, the Communist Party was considered enough of a threat that police were often used to disrupt meetings and functions.

When Communists were elected to office

There was a time in the early 20th century when Communist Party members were elected to city council and Queen's Park — which is remarkable because it wasn’t easy being a Communist in Canada decades ago.

That’s right, comrade. While Communists running for election today don’t register big numbers at the polls, the city and province were different places in the Depression-era 1930s and the 1940s. A number of Communists were elected to public office, representing wards and ridings that had many immigrants, factory workers and lower-income Canadians.

From the party’s inception, members were hounded by the RCMP and some municipal police forces using Section 98 of the Criminal Code (which banned unlawful associations and the use of force or violence to effect change), enacted after the 1919 Winnipeg General Strike. Meetings were broken up, party offices raided, members harassed and sometimes beaten up.

There were honourable people who worked very hard for change, who put up with extreme measures against them, who did change the landscape, especially for labour, before the party was ruined by the Stalinists. That doesn't erase the good that was done.

SocialJustice101

Ok, but communism isn't exactly on the rise these days.   Social democracy perhaps, but not communism.   It's just associated with poverty and authoritarianism, in people's minds.

Rev Pesky

From SocialJustice101:

So is the Israel-Palestine conflict the only issue you are concerned with? 

This is amazing. After pointing out that it wasn't specifically the Israel-Palestinian conflict once, I have to do it again. It is not specifically the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is the NDP's response to those who are defending the human rights of the Palestinians.

It is one thing for the NDP to make a few anodyne statements re: Israeli-Palestine conflict. It is another thing altogether to purge those who work for Palestinian human rights from the party.

You see, the problem is the issue is a symptom. It is a symptom of a party that is run by a small clique, who see it as their job to prevent the party from taking any strong stand on anything. I use the Palestinian issue because it is the most obvious. 

If you read 'Building the Orange Wave' by Brad Lavigne you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. He goes into some detail on how Jack Layton and team went about ignoring the wishes of the party membership, a process that was continued under Thomas Muclair.

In fact, it was as I read it that I started to come to the position that I am now taking, that is, I will no longer vote NDP. I mean, I've hung around the party for years, even worked for it during provincial elections, all the while knowing it wasn't enough to just elect them. I realized that people had to keep on them, pressure them to accomplish anything. I accepted that as the reality of modern politics.

To make it short, I no longer hold that view. I do not believe that any amount of pushing from the ranks can move the NDP to do what a progressive party should, or would, do. The party is competely taken over by the bureaucracy, who sole aim is to perpetuate their existence, and anything that stands in the way of that is summarily dismissed.

Now, I've done a lot of writing over the last couple of hours, and my fingers are tired. If I can make things more clear, I will, but it'll have to wait 'til tomorrow.

Rev Pesky

Form Social Justice101:

Ok, but communism isn't exactly on the rise these days.

Of course you're right, but what is one to do, if one cannot vote for the NDP, but wants to vote for a leftist party? I don't suggest the Communist Party because I think they're the best. In fact, in many ridings there wouldn't even be a Communist candidate.

I suggest I'll vote for the Communist Party because I believe voting is a good thing to do, and at least they would be a left option. If there is no Communist candidate, I'll vote for whomever seems to be leftist, and if there isn't such a candidate, I won't vote. That last is not an option I like, but again, what is one to do? 

Okay, now I really am tired. Later.

NDPP

Check and Compare:

http://www.communist-party.ca/

http://www.ndp.ca

"Our troops havve done a wonderful job in Libya over the past few months. I want to salute the efforts and courage of our troops.... - NDP-

'Slava Ukraini!' -NDP

"I am an ardent supporter of Israel in all situations and circumstances." - NDP

"Learning from the best!' - NDP on Obama presidency 

'NDP Supports White Helmets for Nobel Peace Prize!'

If you have a choice, and you do, do not choose such a party. 

progressive17 progressive17's picture

The Communist Manifesto might be more relevant today than it ever was. Both the Guardian and the BBC have noticed this. Happy 200th Marx birthday...

Rev Pesky

In looking over the link to the C​P Canada site, I noticed something which I think is important.

That is, as small as the party is in many places, it is truly international. That is a step in the right direction.

SocialJustice101

NDPP, what's wrong with supporting Ukraine?    Surely no one remotely progressive can support the crony capitalist mafia state that Putin is running.   He is killing journalists and opposition leaders.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Winnipeg NDP candidate forced to step down during the 2015 federal campaign over social media comments comparing an extreme Jewish sect with the Taliban.

Article...

So it wasn't just Manley that Tom Mulcair flushed out of the party.

from the article:

"Three years ago, Jonasson posted a link to a religious article on social media, and compared the Haredim, an Orthodox branch of Judaism, to the Taliban. "Much like the Taliban and other extremists, the Haredim offer a toxic caricature of faith at odds with the spirit of the religious tradition they profess to represent," he wrote."

SocialJustice101

Is offering a "toxic caricature" the same as flying planes into buildings?

NDPP

SocialJustice101 wrote:

NDPP, what's wrong with supporting Ukraine?    Surely no one remotely progressive can support the crony capitalist mafia state that Putin is running.   He is killing journalists and opposition leaders.

NDPP wrote:

Good question. For the right answer try the Ukraine  threads. The more pertinent question here, given their awful pro-imperialist, pro-capitalist, pro-Israel, pro-NATO stance etc., is why support the NDP?

JKR

Misfit wrote:

Winnipeg NDP candidate forced to step down during the 2015 federal campaign over social media comments comparing an extreme Jewish sect with the Taliban.

Article...

So it wasn't just Manley that Tom Mulcair flushed out of the party.

from the article:

"Three years ago, Jonasson posted a link to a religious article on social media, and compared the Haredim, an Orthodox branch of Judaism, to the Taliban. "Much like the Taliban and other extremists, the Haredim offer a toxic caricature of faith at odds with the spirit of the religious tradition they profess to represent," he wrote."

Unfortunately, Jews have had a very long history of being falsely accused of "offering a toxic caricature of faith." Just last week Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had to apologise for being very anti-Semitic!

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

SocialJustice101 wrote:

Is offering a "toxic caricature" the same as flying planes into buildings?

Why should you ask this? No member of the taliban has ever flown a plane into a building.

Unionist

JKR wrote:
Misfit wrote:

Winnipeg NDP candidate forced to step down during the 2015 federal campaign over social media comments comparing an extreme Jewish sect with the Taliban.

Article...

So it wasn't just Manley that Tom Mulcair flushed out of the party.

from the article:

"Three years ago, Jonasson posted a link to a religious article on social media, and compared the Haredim, an Orthodox branch of Judaism, to the Taliban. "Much like the Taliban and other extremists, the Haredim offer a toxic caricature of faith at odds with the spirit of the religious tradition they profess to represent," he wrote."

Unfortunately, Jews have had a very long history of being falsely accused of "offering a toxic caricature of faith." Just last week Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had to apologise for being very anti-Semitic!

Wow JKR, that's the most ignorant comment I've ever heard from you - and I really don't hear many. Stefan Jonasson, who is a friend and I'll venture to say a personal hero of mine, told the plain truth about the hateful and abusive treatment of women by the Haredim. I'm a Jew, and my only quarrel with Stefan is that he didn't use a few expletives in talking about these toxic characters, who are now also engaged in making Israel unliveable even for Jews of a mildly Liberal persuasion.

I will never forgive Mulcair (my MP - and I've voted for him consistently since the 2007 byelection) for this shameless act. As with his stands on Israel, Gaza, etc., Mulcair betrayed an unfortunate tendency to be the bootlicker for the U.S., Netanyahu, and organizations like B'nai Brith.

Learn some more about Stefan Jonasson, before you gratuitously conflate him with anti-Semites. Thanks.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Thank you Unionist.

JKR

Unionist wrote:

JKR wrote:
Misfit wrote:

Winnipeg NDP candidate forced to step down during the 2015 federal campaign over social media comments comparing an extreme Jewish sect with the Taliban.

Article...

So it wasn't just Manley that Tom Mulcair flushed out of the party.

from the article:

"Three years ago, Jonasson posted a link to a religious article on social media, and compared the Haredim, an Orthodox branch of Judaism, to the Taliban. "Much like the Taliban and other extremists, the Haredim offer a toxic caricature of faith at odds with the spirit of the religious tradition they profess to represent," he wrote."

Unfortunately, Jews have had a very long history of being falsely accused of "offering a toxic caricature of faith." Just last week Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had to apologise for being very anti-Semitic!

Wow JKR, that's the most ignorant comment I've ever heard from you - and I really don't hear many. Stefan Jonasson, who is a friend and I'll venture to say a personal hero of mine, told the plain truth about the hateful and abusive treatment of women by the Haredim. I'm a Jew, and my only quarrel with Stefan is that he didn't use a few expletives in talking about these toxic characters, who are now also engaged in making Israel unliveable even for Jews of a mildly Liberal persuasion.

I will never forgive Mulcair (my MP - and I've voted for him consistently since the 2007 byelection) for this shameless act. As with his stands on Israel, Gaza, etc., Mulcair betrayed an unfortunate tendency to be the bootlicker for the U.S., Netanyahu, and organizations like B'nai Brith.

Learn some more about Stefan Jonasson, before you gratuitously conflate him with anti-Semites. Thanks.

Stefan Jonasson seems like an upstanding person. Our big-tent politics does seem to unfairly punish and exclude people who can be publicly labeled as being "politically incorrect." I also disagree with Haredi philosophy but it does seem to me that it is difficult to single out the Haredis in our culture without leaving an impression of being anti-Semitic.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NDPP wrote:

Check and Compare:

http://www.communist-party.ca/

http://www.ndp.ca

"Our troops havve done a wonderful job in Libya over the past few months. I want to salute the efforts and courage of our troops.... - NDP-

'Slava Ukraini!' -NDP

"I am an ardent supporter of Israel in all situations and circumstances." - NDP

"Learning from the best!' - NDP on Obama presidency 

'NDP Supports White Helmets for Nobel Peace Prize!'

If you have a choice, and you do, do not choose such a party. 

I take your point on everything you say about the NDP.  So do most NDP supporters, from what I can see.

Problem is, the CP still think being a radical means being a Stalinist-this, in an era where there couldn't possibly be a case for replicating any of Stalin's methods ever again.

The need is for an independent radical democratic socialist Left-a Left that represents what people like Marx, William Morris, Rosa Luxemburg and the Krondstadt rebels lived and died for, what Occupy was about, what the Zapatistas and those fighting to defend Rojava stand for now.

Dictatorship is never socialism.  Secret police are never socialism.  Closed borders are never socialism.  Missiles paraded through Red Square on May Day before bitter, life-hating old men are never socialism.  Sending tanks in to crush attempts to build genuine socialism(which is what the violent suppression of East Berlin, Hungary and the Prague Spring, attempts that would never have endangered the security of the USSR in the slightest, were about), is never socialism.  Rule by fear is never socialism.

Socialism is about liberation, not the preservation of "the leading role of the party".

The CP STILL doesn't get that.  

Repression is the opposite of revolution.

Marx knew that.
 

JeffWells

I've considered myself a "free agent" since the leadership vote. Ashton's campaign was the last cause within the party I could imagine getting excited about. There have just been too many losses for the left within the party, and too much lost ground. I don't know what could draw me back. 

Well, a Corbyn-like insurgency, I suppose. But where is that coming from? There is no organized left opposition within the NDP striving at the level of a Corbyn within the Labour Party for decades. Ashton, for all her qualities, still falls in line with the party establishment.

So I've thought, alright then: Communist Party? But its stultifying jargon and Stalinishness just stop me in my tracks every time. (And the CPC-ML looks more like a cult to me than a party.) 

So I don't have a political home anymore, and I'm not optimistic about finding one again. But I'm getting too jaded, or impatient, to invest so much again in the fortunes of a moderate, incrementalist party.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And if you head towards the CP, you end up encountering those who think Vladimir Freaking Putin, a militaristic, antidemocratic, homophobic, Islamophobic, most likely antisemitic reactionary, the guy who sent the female members of Pussy Riot to prison, is somehow the protector of the revolution.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

The NDP is a big tent party that is dedicated to getting elected and all of what NDPP said above is true of its policies. The combination of those two things means any rational person knows that the NDP will never be more progressive than its platform and its platform is fundamentally a continuation of the status quo, in all areas that matter. If you are interested in fixing ATM fees and not the banking system the NDP is a good choice.

Our  NDP MP is a nice guy and I voted for him. However given the fact that he ran hard on indigenous issues I cannot vote for him next time. When you run and use UNDRIP as a talking point to garner votes you can't then be equivocal when First Nations are fighting to protect their territories and screaming they have not given any consent to dangerous projects headed by foreign multi-nationals. I think we need a party dedicated to promoting a  shift to syndicalism and local control over resources and major decisions not one that needs to wet its finger and stick it in the air everytime it needs to deal with an issue. Principals are worth fighting for, electing people whose main aim is electoral success is not worth even voting for.

NDPP

Don't believe it, it's bullshit. There's far more evidence of 'Stalinism' in the NDP than today's CPC. Check it out and find out for yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Canada

Rev Pesky

From JeffWells:

So I've thought, alright then: Communist Party? But its stultifying jargon and Stalinishness just stop me in my tracks every time. (And the CPC-ML looks more like a cult to me than a party.) 

Just to remind everyone that this thread is not really about the Communist Party. I mentioned the possibility that I would vote Communist rather than not vote (depending on a variety of things).

​I agree with you JeffWells about the jargon of the CP. However, I'll ask you, and others, to remember that the old CP of Stalin is, like Stalin, dead and gone. The kind of control the party had over operations back when is gone as well. In other words, there may be someone running under the  CP banner who is not Stalinist at all.

​In fact there are a number of 'communist' parties out there,  some of which are in complete agreement with Ken Burch's sentiments. So I wouldn't rule out a 'Communist' vote just because of past associations.

It's also true that having even that option is not too likely anywhere in Canada outside of major cities. Back when, a friend of mine ran in the BC interior (the lone time I voted Communist), but for the most part finding a genuine Communist to vote for is pretty tough. I mentioned the possibility mostly to emphasize that I would be looking for a more leftist option for my vote, rather than saying I won't vote for the NDP, so I'll have to vote for the Liberals, or some such.

I can pretty much guarantee that my vote will never go in that direcction.

SocialJustice101

Putin is a right-wing dictator, who doesn't care at all about human rights nor about democracy.    No wonder Trump loves him.     It'd be completely ignorant to suggest Putin is somehow a communist, if anyone is trying to.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Seems like the Communist Party of the Russian Federation is doing about as well in Russia as the NDP are here.

Rev Pesky

Bump to jump the spam

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Just to clarify, I admire a lot of individual small-c communists....Marx and Engels themselves, obviously(and Marx's daughter Eleanor), Rosa Luxemburg, those small-c communists who supported the Krondstadt rising,  Brecht, Victor Jara, Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, pretty much anybody ELSE named "Seeger", the rebel Communists of Prague and Budapest, every South African Communist Party member who helped lead the heroic struggle against apartheid, Mikhail Gorbachev, and many, many others.  

My issue is with the large-C variety...those who still hold, as CPUSA chair Gus Hall did in 1991, that "no major mistakes were made in Eastern Europe", or the guy who showed up at our May Day event in Olympia with a "Party of Communists USA" flag(the PCUSA, if you were wondering, are a group which supports Kim Jong-Un), the billionaire Stalinists of Beijing, and the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, the discredited Brezhnevite group which in practice backs Putin and whose continued existence had made it impossible to create an independent radical democratic Left of any strength in Russa-and done so at a time when Russia desperately NEEDS an independent radical democratic Left.

There's simply no reason for any of them to exist.  Their presence does nothing to assist the global struggle against exploitation, and you get the feeling that they don't WANT capitalism to be defeated.

WWWTT

@ Rev Pesky 

I have a suggestion, either change the name of the thread to somehow include discussion of communist/communism etc etc. Or someone start a new thread about communism?

i think the posters here are now more interested in discussing communist judging from the comments and I don’t know what to expect when clicking on this thread. Thanks

Rev Pesky

I'll quote myself, from above:

Just to remind everyone that this thread is not really about the Communist Party. I mentioned the possibility that I would vote Communist rather than not vote (depending on a variety of things).

To clarify a bit perhaps people could post whether they think the NDP has a future, given their aimless wandering (the NDP's aimless wandering, that is).

That may put things back on track.

Pondering

The NDP is no more dead than the Liberals were when they were in 3rd place and a hot mess. The NDP remains a major party.  How they will evolve remains a question mark but they aren't going anywhere. 

Rev Pesky

I suspect the above was posted before the story on Christine Moore surfaced.

But perhaps I should put the question another way. Does the NDP party have significant policy differences from the Liberals? 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..there are very few on this board that talk of an alternative to the ndp. i speak of community control/municipalist movement often. having said that, for the time being and maybe for a long time yet..we still need the ndp. they are the easiest for us to influence.

..i have said this before and will repeat to make my point. in bc the ndp was once pro km pipeline. because the populations of the south west coast are/were against km the ndp has become a champion against. this in spite of their contradictions.

..our struggle, as i see it, is to come together at the community level and force what we can out of the ndp. look at the discussion that ensued around the leadership debate. we need the ndp because without an alternative  it will be a 2 party system and that is not good for anyone. 

..since the early 70's i've, more often than not, held my nose and voted for them as so many others have done. nothing has changed politically for that to change. this is the practical thing to do.  

NDPP

re 'Alternatives' - the ndp will never work and never come around -  do it yourselves...

The Jimmy Dore Show

Marxist Economic Theory Easily Explained w Richard Wolff

https://youtu.be/qT1JAzhywfA

https://youtu.be/QQr5k7pl4PQ

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..forcing the ndp to alter a position is doing it yourself. not voting for them as you have suggest in the past ndpp is a non starter. there are already movements out there to piggyback on. eg: the anti pipeline movements and qs.

eta..what is needed is a different way of making decisions. just replacing what exists with another vanguard party will produce the same results. a few reforms and capital beating into line. like greece. the movements and their power must be built up. and what has been built to date let alone as it becomes strong will not hand all that work over to a party no more than it has handed it off to the ndp. communities is where the work is needed before anything serious changes.

Pondering

epaulo13 wrote:

..forcing the ndp to alter a position is doing it yourself. not voting for them as you have suggest in the past ndpp is a non starter. there are already movements out there to piggyback on. eg: the anti pipeline movements and qs.

eta..what is needed is a different way of making decisions. just replacing what exists with another vanguard party will produce the same results. a few reforms and capital beating into line. like greece. the movements and their power must be built up. and what has been built to date let alone as it becomes strong will not hand all that work over to a party no more than it has handed it off to the ndp. communities is where the work is needed before anything serious changes.

What's needed is public education. The members of a party have very little power. Parties are controlled by the executive, leader and followers.  Official policy does not mean part of the platform. 

The executive, leader and followers are driven by votes and money. Even panders to a particular base they try to keep happy with as little as possible while they cleave to the centre. 

Rev Pesky

This was part of a post on another thread, and I commented on it there, but in thinking it over, I really believe it deserves a more detailed look.

From Frozen Snowshoe:

If a staff member was told to make sure he didn't step out of line at a convention and did so, she was just doing her job.

Really. Think about that for a moment. Is this person saying the NDP would send a staffer to monitor an elected MP, and try to prevent them from speaking? That's  bordering on criminal. 

I mean, the party has a perfect right to say to a caucus member that if they go somewhere, and say some things, they risk their position in caucus. This is far beyond that. This is downright suppression. It's one thing to say to someone that there may be repercussions from saying things, it's another thing altogether to demand they don't say those things at all, and put hired people in position to make sure they don't say them. That is unconscionable.

And what was the huge danger in those unspoken words? Was the person calling for jailing lesbians, applying the death penalty to drug dealers, bringing back corporal punishment to prisons?

Nope. Here are the words too dangerous for people to hear (or at least a written summary):

Instead, the federal government’s discussion paper proposes output-based allocations for carbon-intensive, trade-exposed facilities. Weir is releasing a discussion paper comparing this approach to federal border adjustments. It outlines several advantages of border adjustments: they could be applied comprehensively, increase federal revenues rather than reducing provincial revenues, and comply with international trade agreements.

Federal NDP leadership candidate Peter Julian has endorsed this approach to ensure that carbon pricing applies consistently across the Canadian market, wherever the seller is located.

That was the idea too dangerous to be spoken aloud. These were the words a party staffer was sent to prevent Weir from speaking.

I'm not a member of the NDP, and I have never been. At the same time, as noted above, I have always voted for the NDP candidate in my riding. 

But my suggestion to the NDP membership is, 'clean house'. The bureaucrats have completely taken over the party, and it won't become a progressive party again until the bureaucracy is gone.

In the meantime, I will find somewhere else to park my vote, hoping for a real progressive option, or I will sit the election out. That last makes me sad because I really do believe that people should vote, no matter how feeble it seems, it's still a valuable option that many in the world do not have.

But I refuse to endorse a party that is so lost. Sayonara, NDP. I thought I knew you

Debater

Pondering wrote:

The NDP is no more dead than the Liberals were when they were in 3rd place and a hot mess. The NDP remains a major party.  How they will evolve remains a question mark but they aren't going anywhere. 

There are several big differences between the NDP and the way the Liberals were after the 2011 Election.

1.  The Liberals only fell to 3rd place once.  They were not really a 3rd party in the traditional sense.  They weren't a party that had been perpetually in opposition.  They had a history of forming government.

2. The Liberals were led by the son of a former Prime Minister, which gave them a higher than usual profile as a 3rd party between 2013 and 2015.  And not just any Prime Minister, but one of the most famous and most successful.

3.  The Liberals led the polls from the Spring of 2013 when Justin Trudeau became leader, until the Spring of 2015 when the NDP won Alberta.  During that time they not only led the polls, but they gained ground in every by-election held during that time, and picked up 2 seats (Labrador and Trinity-Spadina).  So far, the NDP has lost ground in the by-elections since the last election, and has never led the national polls.

That is not to say that it's impossible for the NDP to gain major ground at some point down the road, but it is not in the same position as a 3rd party that the Liberals were in.

I also agree that the NDP is not going anywhere.  They are not in danger of losing official party status as some people on this board have predicted.  That was a unique phenomenon confined to the 1993 election and is not likely to happen again.

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