Harper joins U.S. in Iraq, with support of Liberals

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Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 -- I see you tack pretty hard to the right. But what exactly do you think Canada has to offer there that would be greater than the issue of interference in another state, being seen as modern crusaders. Isis is in part a response to previous interference -- as disgusting a response as it is.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

I think us going to Iraq is a good thing.  I consider myself blessed to be removed from the finer points of politics and party vs. party nit picking.  I turn on the news and I see people getting their freaking heads sawed off.  I've been up close and personal with the aftermath of what happens when these types of people try to "send a message", it's heart wrenching.  i don't care about politics as much as I care about seeing human beings getting their heads sawed off and want to stop it.

While decapitation is clearly a big no-no in western social mores, I see no good reason why it should be more horrifying than blowing someone's head to smithereens with a shotgun (or a sniper rifle), which seems to occasion not nearly as much hand-wringing and indignation. In my view, what the ISIS savages did to those 2 American reporters was grotesque and horrible, but no more so than what Darren Wilson did to Michael Brown. In both cases, the victims are dead for no good reason.

So, are you suggesting that our government should be sending armies to everywhere in the world where heinous, unjustified killing takes place? If not, exactly what test are you proposing for which conflicts we should get involved in? Your answer must somehow single out this particular case, but not include Congo, or many other equally horrible situations.

Paladin1

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Paladin1 -- I see you tack pretty hard to the right. But what exactly do you think Canada has to offer there that would be greater than the issue of interference in another state, being seen as modern crusaders. Isis is in part a response to previous interference -- as disgusting a response as it is.

 

I have no idea if that's tracking to the villanous right or not; I just don't like living in a world where people are killing each other. I wouldn't be surprised if the US orchastrated this whole ISIS thing to get troops and money flowing back into Iraq. I'd actually bet money on it. NOT trying to save the lives of the refugees being chased down and killed won't teach the US a lesson. It won't prove a point. At the end of the day some men women and childen will be dead and they won't understand why.  That simplistic view probably really chaffs people here.

 

I know shit like this is going on all over the world not just Iraq. I know anytime we commit troops to something be it disaster relief peacekeeping or comabt it's because of politics and votes.  I wish we could end violence eveywhere.

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Paladin1 -- I see you tack pretty hard to the right. But what exactly do you think Canada has to offer there that would be greater than the issue of interference in another state, being seen as modern crusaders. Isis is in part a response to previous interference -- as disgusting a response as it is.

Since you're going to debate with this individual, why not ask him whether we should have helped overthrow and hang Saddam Hussein? How many thousands of his own people (the favourite watchword these days) did he kill with poison gas? Of course, the U.S. just might have been [url=http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_... in that[/url], but at least they wiped him out later and won the undying gratitude of the Iraqi people?

And don't get me started about that murderer Gaddafi. Those poor Libyans didn't know why they were being murdered. They're just grateful to our bombers for getting rid of him and his kids.

And the poor women and girls of Afghanistan. They love us.

Can't we just do a quick, like, hit and run, maybe with joysticks and drones, and help the women and children (and the old and disabled) yet again?

Sean, I object to this conversation here. I find it obscene. I started this thread because we need to find ways to pressure our political class to keep their hands off Iraq. Not to have debates about whether we should do what Bush and Blair did.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

The world is afloat with weaponry and more arms are being pumped out daily from the death factories of the Western powers. If you don't have wars the arms manufacturers go out of business and the war machine is some of the only manufacturimg left in the USA. The thing about peace is you can't have it while your at war.  To use a Vietnam era phrase., Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Paladin1 -- I see you tack pretty hard to the right. But what exactly do you think Canada has to offer there that would be greater than the issue of interference in another state, being seen as modern crusaders. Isis is in part a response to previous interference -- as disgusting a response as it is.

Since you're going to debate with this individual, why not ask him whether we should have helped overthrow and hang Saddam Hussein? How many thousands of his own people (the favourite watchword these days) did he kill with poison gas? Of course, the U.S. just might have been [url=http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_... in that[/url], but at least they wiped him out later and won the undying gratitude of the Iraqi people?

And don't get me started about that murderer Gaddafi. Those poor Libyans didn't know why they were being murdered. They're just grateful to our bombers for getting rid of him and his kids.

And the poor women and girls of Afghanistan. They love us.

Can't we just do a quick, like, hit and run, maybe with joysticks and drones, and help the women and children (and the old and disabled) yet again?

Sean, I object to this conversation here. I find it obscene. I started this thread because we need to find ways to pressure our political class to keep their hands off Iraq. Not to have debates about whether we should do what Bush and Blair did.

 

My question was rhetorical. I thought that was obvious. Sorry.

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

My question was rhetorical. I thought that was obvious. Sorry.

It was painfully obvious, Sean. I know where you stand on such issues. My point is simply that rhetorical questions are lost on trolls. They will happily answer them. And anti-imperialist discussion (which is mandated by babble's policy) gets derailed.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

 

I just don't like living in a world where people are killing each other. 

Yet you appear to think that the best way stop people killing each other is to have people kill each other.

Webgear

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The world is afloat with weaponry and more arms are being pumped out daily from the death factories of the Western powers. If you don't have wars the arms manufacturers go out of business and the war machine is some of the only manufacturimg left in the USA. The thing about peace is you can't have it while your at war.  To use a Vietnam era phrase., Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

I believe a more accurate statement would be

"The world is afloat with weaponry and more arms are being pumped out daily from the death factories of all industrial powers

The Russians and the Chinese have been pumping out AKs for decades like it was popcorn at a movie theatre.  This also includes Canada and the Western World.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

So Paladin what you are saying is that you are part of the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6imjvgJFvM

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

But without him,
how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He’s the one who gives his body
as a weapon of the war.
And without him all this killing can’t go on

He’s the universal soldier
And he really is the blame
His orders comes from
far away no more.

They come from him.
And you and me.
And brothers can’t you see.
This is not the way we put an end to war

 

We need to stop the orders that come from our government. Paladin you can stop yourself.

Debater

kropotkin1951 wrote:

It was the people in the streets that stopped Cretien from sending in the ground troops like he did in Afghanistan. Given pragmatism is the only Liberal ideology it would be astounding if he had done anything else.  As mentioned above he focused on not sending ground troops as a great progressive move while supplying the invasion with critical behind the scenes military support.

To reiterate it was the people of Canada who said no to the war in Iraq not the Liberals.

It's not quite that simple.  Last year in 2013 there was a 10-year anniversary held in Shawinigan of Chrétien's decision not to support Bush's Iraq War.  There was a forum & panel discussion held, featuring various speakers, including Chrétien himself.  It was broadcast on CPAC, so you might be able to find it somewhere.

Anyway, as various people including Chrétien outlined, he was under a lot of pressure to agree with Bush's Iraq war, but it was the advice and discussions with those such as President Jacques Chirac of France that persuaded Chrétien not to go into Iraq without UN sanction.  Chirac was against it, and Chrétien agreed with him, rather than Bush.

It is also true that the larger amount of opposition to the Iraq War in Québec was a contributing factor, but there was not as much opposition in the rest of the country.  There was more support for it in Western Canada, and division in other parts of Canada.  There was not a huge uprising against it.

What is true is that because Chrétien is not far-right on foreign policy like Harper, his more centrist sensibilities, combined with his status as a Québecer, allowed him to make the correct decision, unlike Harper who was based in right-wing ideology and tried to appeal to the Bush supporters & the Americans.  This is why it is preferable to have a Liberal rather than Conservative government in Ottawa.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Debater, it is never peferable to have Liberals in Governance. What you really meant is this why we get stuck with Liberal governments; Conservatives are crazy!

Debater

Who would you have rather had as PM at the time of the Iraq War?  Chrétien, who was willing to listen to advice from Europe's leaders, or Harper, who only wanted to follow Bush (and his Australian friend John Howard)?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Debater the lesser of two evils is always by definition evil. The lesser of nasty corporate parties is still a nasty corporate party.

Debater

Forget the corporate party stuff and lesser of two evils debate for a moment.

Please answer my detailed reponse to you above:

Who would you have rather had as Prime Minister of Canada in 2003 when the Iraq War decision was made?  Jean Chretien or Stephen Harper?

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Debater wrote:

Forget the corporate party stuff and lesser of two evils debate for a moment.

Please answer my detailed reponse to you above:

Who would you have rather had as Prime Minister of Canada in 2003 when the Iraq War decision was made?  Jean Chretien or Stephen Harper?

Neither. Done, and, done.

Webgear

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Well, from one Vet to another who has had experience with this as well, I say you haven't learned anything. What are you doing here anyway? What's the matter, miss the Herc?

I deduce Arthur, you are one of those types that never tried to correct the system yet you reeked the benefits of being in the forces. Likely took your commission, got lots of free education and then started hacking on your comrades after you left the service. 

 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Debater wrote:

Who would you have rather had as Prime Minister of Canada in 2003 when the Iraq War decision was made?  Jean Chretien or Stephen Harper?

None of the above.

Webgear

I can't sleep, so I will stay up for a bit longer. I am going to ready all NDPPs links, they are interesting.

 

 

Sean in Ottawa

Webgear wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Well, from one Vet to another who has had experience with this as well, I say you haven't learned anything. What are you doing here anyway? What's the matter, miss the Herc?

I deduce Arthur, you are one of those types that never tried to correct the system yet you reeked the benefits of being in the forces. Likely took your commission, got lots of free education and then started hacking on your comrades after you left the service. 

Seems that is rather personal. And it is in response to a personal question posed by Art earlier. Maybe should back slowly away from that conversation.

Pondering

Paladin1 wrote:
Yessir. I'm just shy of 20 years in and I'm heading out for my 6th flight across the pond very shortly.  When I make my statements I make them not only from someone who has been in theater and stood on over a dozen ramp ceremonies but as someone who has lost a family member from service over there.

Thank you for your service and i am sorry you lost a family member.

Unionist wrote:
Oh yes, we must show the Kurds the way. I forgot. We never invade and murder people. We just help innocent civilians who are being slaughtered by their own compatriots. Thanks for the timely reminder!

The Kurds requested help. Even Turkey, who has been dead set against the Kurds having weapons, are supporting the Kurds they are so scared of ISIS. This is very much a result of the US invasion of Iraq. Yes the arms trade is a terrible thing and I want Canada out of it but right now the Iraqi people urgently need and want help. It's not an invasion.

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Pondering, OK, first of all, what specifically is it that you see as Canada's invovlement in this? Details please. And also, tell me how you know this won't escalte into Combat missions of one kind or another. Details on that as well please. Thanks.

I'm not a fortune teller. Right now I support our sending advisors. I have no idea how the situation will evolve. I will form an opinion if and when that time comes.

I don't want to send any of our troops into harms way ever. Having said that it is what they sign up to do. It's been a long time since combat happened on Canadian soil. I prefer our role as peacekeepers but that has not been without terrible scandals either.I would like Canadians to never face combat. But if I were Kurdish I would be desperately hoping the world was paying attention and would help me. The Kurds are doing their own fighting. They just need support.

Slumberjack

Aristotleded24 wrote:
For the longest time, there has been no significant difference between the Liberals, NDP, and Conservatives on the foreign policy question, except maybe differences of degree. Why does that come as a big shock or surprise to anyone here?

It likely doesn't, or at least it shouldn't.  Among the respective supporters I doubt that it matters very much because obtaining power is the true objective, to which everything else is subordinated.

Paladin1

Arthur Cramer wrote:

 

Have you ever served? If not, then how can you advocate "going into Iraq". If you have served, or for that matter are in the Service, have you ever been in theater?

Yessir. I'm just shy of 20 years in and yes I've deployed a few times into theaters.  When I make my statements I make them not only from someone who has been in theater and stood on over a dozen ramp ceremonies but as someone who has lost a family member from service over there.

Webgear

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Webgear wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Well, from one Vet to another who has had experience with this as well, I say you haven't learned anything. What are you doing here anyway? What's the matter, miss the Herc?

I deduce Arthur, you are one of those types that never tried to correct the system yet you reeked the benefits of being in the forces. Likely took your commission, got lots of free education and then started hacking on your comrades after you left the service. 

Seems that is rather personal. And it is in response to a personal question posed by Art earlier. Maybe should back slowly away from that conversation.

 

Why should I back away? Arthur is questioning and making statements to a member about his service and experiences.

I am just making the same level of assumptions as Arthur did.

You know one veteran to another. 

Webgear

Slumberjack wrote:

It likely doesn't, or at least it shouldn't.  Among the respective supporters I doubt that it matters very much because obtaining power is the true objective, to which everything else is subordinated.

The most accurate statement made on the forums for a while.

Paladin1

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So Paladin what you are saying is that you are part of the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6imjvgJFvM

 

VanDamme is a tough act to follow but I try

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goh_DwJDnE0

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

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Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Webgear wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Well, from one Vet to another who has had experience with this as well, I say you haven't learned anything. What are you doing here anyway? What's the matter, miss the Herc?

I deduce Arthur, you are one of those types that never tried to correct the system yet you reeked the benefits of being in the forces. Likely took your commission, got lots of free education and then started hacking on your comrades after you left the service. 

 

 

 

Wrong Mac. DEO, 20 plus years Navy; retired. Not even close.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:
Yessir. I'm just shy of 20 years in and I'm heading out for my 6th flight across the pond very shortly.  When I make my statements I make them not only from someone who has been in theater and stood on over a dozen ramp ceremonies but as someone who has lost a family member from service over there.

Thank you for your service and i am sorry you lost a family member.

Unionist wrote:
Oh yes, we must show the Kurds the way. I forgot. We never invade and murder people. We just help innocent civilians who are being slaughtered by their own compatriots. Thanks for the timely reminder!

The Kurds requested help. Even Turkey, who has been dead set against the Kurds having weapons, are supporting the Kurds they are so scared of ISIS. This is very much a result of the US invasion of Iraq. Yes the arms trade is a terrible thing and I want Canada out of it but right now the Iraqi people urgently need and want help. It's not an invasion.

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Pondering, OK, first of all, what specifically is it that you see as Canada's invovlement in this? Details please. And also, tell me how you know this won't escalte into Combat missions of one kind or another. Details on that as well please. Thanks.

I'm not a fortune teller. Right now I support our sending advisors. I have no idea how the situation will evolve. I will form an opinion if and when that time comes.

I don't want to send any of our troops into harms way ever. Having said that it is what they sign up to do. It's been a long time since combat happened on Canadian soil. I prefer our role as peacekeepers but that has not been without terrible scandals either.I would like Canadians to never face combat. But if I were Kurdish I would be desperately hoping the world was paying attention and would help me. The Kurds are doing their own fighting. They just need support.

Wrong Pondering, they don't sign up to fight stupid, and unncessary conflicts. I ask again, are you going to tell your relatives young kids to sign up? If you won't, then yo u don't have a right to suggest anyone go fight anywhere, period. Well, answer the question asks this 20 year plus CF Vet.

Paladin1

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

 

Have you ever served? If not, then how can you advocate "going into Iraq". If you have served, or for that matter are in the Service, have you ever been in theater?

Yessir. I'm just shy of 20 years in and I'm heading out for my 6th flight across the pond very shortly.  When I make my statements I make them not only from someone who has been in theater and stood on over a dozen ramp ceremonies but as someone who has lost a family member from service over there.

Well, from one Vet to another who has had experience with this as well, I say you haven't learned anything. What are you doing here anyway? What's the matter, miss the Herc?

 

I'd like to think that I've actually learned quite a bit. I think seeing the aftermath of war first hand can provide a clearer picture than getting your input just on the news alone.

Do you mean what am I doing on rabble? I like it here. I used to vote conservative but I've recently found myself questioning some of my old beliefs and biases. Aside from some melodramatic posters there's some really great debates here, I'll learn a lot more from people who are my political or philisophical oposites than someone who thinks the exact same way as me.  If me being here really bothers you that much you could always just report my posts to the mods and see if they agree.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

-

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Paladin1 wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

 

Have you ever served? If not, then how can you advocate "going into Iraq". If you have served, or for that matter are in the Service, have you ever been in theater?

Yessir. I'm just shy of 20 years in and I'm heading out for my 6th flight across the pond very shortly.  When I make my statements I make them not only from someone who has been in theater and stood on over a dozen ramp ceremonies but as someone who has lost a family member from service over there.

Well, from one Vet to another who has had experience with this as well, I say you haven't learned anything. What are you doing here anyway? What's the matter, miss the Herc?

 

I'd like to think that I've actually learned quite a bit. I think seeing the aftermath of war first hand can provide a clearer picture than getting your input just on the news alone.

Do you mean what am I doing on rabble? I like it here. I used to vote conservative but I've recently found myself questioning some of my old beliefs and biases. Aside from some melodramatic posters there's some really great debates here, I'll learn a lot more from people who are my political or philisophical oposites than someone who thinks the exact same way as me.  If me being here really bothers you that much you could always just report my posts to the mods and see if they agree.

No, not going to do that. Welcome; keep contributing. I will cool down a bit. Yours is fair comment friend.

Sean in Ottawa

Webgear wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Webgear wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Well, from one Vet to another who has had experience with this as well, I say you haven't learned anything. What are you doing here anyway? What's the matter, miss the Herc?

I deduce Arthur, you are one of those types that never tried to correct the system yet you reeked the benefits of being in the forces. Likely took your commission, got lots of free education and then started hacking on your comrades after you left the service. 

Seems that is rather personal. And it is in response to a personal question posed by Art earlier. Maybe should back slowly away from that conversation.

 

Why should I back away? Arthur is questioning and making statements to a member about his service and experiences.

I am just making the same level of assumptions as Arthur did.

You know one veteran to another. 

That was a note of concern as usually when things get personal usually things go south. You did not start the personal tour as I said. That was meant to apply to both sides not just you

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Webgear wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Webgear wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Well, from one Vet to another who has had experience with this as well, I say you haven't learned anything. What are you doing here anyway? What's the matter, miss the Herc?

I deduce Arthur, you are one of those types that never tried to correct the system yet you reeked the benefits of being in the forces. Likely took your commission, got lots of free education and then started hacking on your comrades after you left the service. 

Seems that is rather personal. And it is in response to a personal question posed by Art earlier. Maybe should back slowly away from that conversation.

 

Why should I back away? Arthur is questioning and making statements to a member about his service and experiences.

I am just making the same level of assumptions as Arthur did.

You know one veteran to another. 

That was a note of concern as usually when things get personal usually things go south. You did not start the personal tour as I said. That was meant to apply to both sides not just you

Look, alll I was saying is that I do not get why Vets go along with needless and stupid war when we actually know what it costs someone so personally. My dad was realy first wave ashore on D-Day, faught through France and Belgium and was anti-war all of his life. I have a picture somewhere of him in his 70s pushing my mother in a wheel chair at an anti war rally. I just figure if a man like that would come back and feel that way, it should tell all of us something. Maybe Vets on this forum should refrain from taking shots at each other, starting with me. I will try to do that going forward. I am actually surprised there are so many Vets posting here; I spent most of my time in the Service explaining to people the difference between a Social-Democrat and being a Communist, so I would never expect Vets to hang around here. Lets call a truce on this. Ill make the effort and hoepefuly everyone else will as well.

Face it, with first hand experience, issues like this cut close to the vest. Bang on as always Sean.

Unionist

Here is how the NDP is avoiding taking a stand against intervention:

[url=http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/opposition-calls-for-vote-debate-... calls for vote, debate over Iraq deployment[/url]

This was the same slogan used with regard to Afghanistan during the 2005-2006 election campaign, and thereafter, right until the September 2006 convention pulled the rug out and called for immediate and safe withdrawal of all troops.

Quote:

NDP defence critic Jack Harris says Canadians need to have a good idea of what the country is getting into and how far it is willing to go before sending troops into harms way.

“The Iraq War, the Libya situation, Afghanistan, mission creep has been a feature of these events,” he said, referring to the phenomenon of military missions unintentionally growing in size and scope.

“We need to be cautious about what commitments we’re making, and that we know what we’re doing.”

Translation: We supported all those missions, and we support this one - but we're not sure what else to say as Opposition.

The NDP (and Liberals and BQ and Greens) need to be told that Canadians do not support this mission.

Unionist

.

Slumberjack

Yeah it's laughable.  It supposes people don't already have a pretty good idea of what getting involved in that region can mean.  For Jack Harris there apparently haven't been enough metal coffins brought back from our last involvement to make the point clear enough for people.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Slumberjack wrote:

Yeah it's laughable.  It supposes people don't already have a pretty good idea of what getting involved in that region can mean.  For Jack Harris there apparently haven't been enough metal coffins brought back from our last involvement to make the point clear enough for people.

That is bang on Slumberjack!

NDPP

And let's not forget that Canada helped create ISIS/ISIL too - the goals remain essentially unchanged from below

Canada's Harper Government Supports Covert Mercenary War on Syria, Funds Al Qaeda Affiliated Rebels  -  by Ken Stone

http://www.globalresearch.ca/canadas-harper-government-supports-covert-m...

"...The strategic foreign policy objectives of the US for regime change in Syria are manifold: first to extend its reach even further into the oil-rich Middle East; Secondly, to remove regimes not compliant with US political and economic goals; Thirdly, to shatter the so-called 'Axis of Resistance', a de facto alliance of Iran, Syria and Hezbollah in Lebanon, against the State of Israel; fourth, to deny Russia its only Mediterranean naval base at Tartarus; and finally, to redraw the map of the Middle East, balkanizing existing countries, such as Iraq, Libya and Syria, into tiny sectarian enclaves, [eg Kurdistan] making them easier to control..."

 

Pondering

In response to a post in another thread:

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Talk about avoding Pondering, why won't you answer whehter you would tell your loved ones to go off to war in the name of "helping" others as you advocated in that Irag thread?

No I wouldn't, nor would I join the military myself, or become a police officer. I wouldn't encourage a stranger to join the military either. Anyone joining the military should know that they are facing possible combat on foreign soil.

In this case advisors are being sent not combat troops.

I do recognize ISIS as a major threat locally but also a lessor threat to Canada.

Were you against Canada's participation in the war against Hitler?

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering wrote:

In response to a post in another thread:

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Talk about avoding Pondering, why won't you answer whehter you would tell your loved ones to go off to war in the name of "helping" others as you advocated in that Irag thread?

No I wouldn't, nor would I join the military myself, or become a police officer. I wouldn't encourage a stranger to join the military either. Anyone joining the military should know that they are facing possible combat on foreign soil.

In this case advisors are being sent not combat troops.

I do recognize ISIS as a major threat locally but also a lessor threat to Canada.

Were you against Canada's participation in the war against Hitler?

 

What a masterful attempt at deflection. OK Pondering, your post says everything one needs to know. Thanks for such an informative post!

ETA: You should feel ashamed of yourself.

ETA2: The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I hate the fact that all the media coverage down plays anything to do about Syria in this conflict.  The Eastern part of Syria is under the control of this group and our government with the support of the Opposition is still trying to overthrow the elected government. The Syrians under the control of ISIS are just as vunerable to the atrocities that have been reported.  They bleed and die when beheaded just like a Kurd or Iraqi.

What I would like my government to do about the situation in Syria, Iraq and Kurdistan where ISIS is attacking the democratically chosen governments of Syria, Iraq and Kurdistan is stop the sanctions against Syria and withdraw all support from any anti-Syrian fighters in Eastern Syria.  At the same time they should urge the FSA to accept an immediate ceasefire and thus allow the Syrian government to send its best troops east to meet this threat to its soverignity and its people lives. Free up the Syrian army that is being pinned down by Western backed insurgents and I think they might be a match for the hardened fighters in ISIS.

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Pondering wrote:

In response to a post in another thread:

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Talk about avoding Pondering, why won't you answer whehter you would tell your loved ones to go off to war in the name of "helping" others as you advocated in that Irag thread?

No I wouldn't, nor would I join the military myself, or become a police officer. I wouldn't encourage a stranger to join the military either. Anyone joining the military should know that they are facing possible combat on foreign soil.

In this case advisors are being sent not combat troops.

I do recognize ISIS as a major threat locally but also a lessor threat to Canada.

Were you against Canada's participation in the war against Hitler?

 

What a masterful attempt at deflection. OK Pondering, your post says everything one needs to know. Thanks for such an informative post.!

ETA: You should feel ashamed of yourself.

I think you are the one who should be ashamed of yourself for attacking another vet for having a viewpoint different from yours.

Seeing as you find taking an advisory role so risky I'm shocked you were ever in the armed forces never mind stayed in long enough to retire from it. I can't imagine why you didn't quit right away when you found out it might include talking about fighting. Don't navy ships have guns on them? Did you think they were there just for show? Why do you think you were trained to shoot and paid to wear a uniform for decades? Wait, you were trained to shoot weren't you?

I strongly advise anyone who doesn't want to advise people about fighting, or actually fight, to not join the military. If you don't want to work with numbers, don't become an accountant.

I am against the invasions of countries but when a country, or people, request our help it is the modern function of our military to step in if it is in the best interests of Canada to do so. We can reject the entire function and redesign our military to serve us in other ways but right now this is what it exists for. In other words Arthur, it's why you had a job and it's why you have a pension.

Pondering

Arthur Cramer wrote:
What a masterful attempt at deflection. OK Pondering, your post says everything one needs to know. Thanks for such an informative post!

Deflection is when someone avoids answering a question. I answered your question unequivocally. I said no, I would not.

You did avoid answering my question. That is deflection.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Pondering wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Pondering wrote:

In response to a post in another thread:

Arthur Cramer wrote:
Talk about avoding Pondering, why won't you answer whehter you would tell your loved ones to go off to war in the name of "helping" others as you advocated in that Irag thread?

No I wouldn't, nor would I join the military myself, or become a police officer. I wouldn't encourage a stranger to join the military either. Anyone joining the military should know that they are facing possible combat on foreign soil.

In this case advisors are being sent not combat troops.

I do recognize ISIS as a major threat locally but also a lessor threat to Canada.

Were you against Canada's participation in the war against Hitler?

 

What a masterful attempt at deflection. OK Pondering, your post says everything one needs to know. Thanks for such an informative post.!

ETA: You should feel ashamed of yourself.

I think you are the one who should be ashamed of yourself for attacking another vet for having a viewpoint different from yours.

Seeing as you find taking an advisory role so risky I'm shocked you were ever in the armed forces never mind stayed in long enough to retire from it. I can't imagine why you didn't quit right away when you found out it might include talking about fighting. Don't navy ships have guns on them? Did you think they were there just for show? Why do you think you were trained to shoot and paid to wear a uniform for decades? Wait, you were trained to shoot weren't you?

I strongly advise anyone who doesn't want to advise people about fighting, or actually fight, to not join the military. If you don't want to work with numbers, don't become an accountant.

I am against the invasions of countries but when a country, or people, request our help it is the modern function of our military to step in if it is in the best interests of Canada to do so. We can reject the entire function and redesign our military to serve us in other ways but right now this is what it exists for. In other words Arthur, it's why you had a job and it's why you have a pension.

Pondering, what are you talking about? We aren't talking about other posters on this board, we are talking about you. More deflection. Masterful; a real example of your modus operandi.

Lets try this again. This nonsense on the Middle East is entirely due to the influence of Corporations on governance. The Americans attacked Iraq for oil, and set the Middle East ablaze. What we see now is soley due to the actions of the Americans and complicit governments in the West.

Now, lets talk about Miitary, SERVICE. That's right, SERVICE. Pondering, I never worried about being involved in conflict, it was part of the job. But, I am entirely oppossed to sending  young men and women off to die for nothing. Advisors, yeah, yeah, whatever. This has the potential to escalate. Hence, my oppossition. I have served, and unlike you, know abotu what I am speaking. You pontificate, espouse, and tell everyone else they have no clue. How is the view from the cheap seats Pondering? How many spouses came to your office and asked you why you were sending their spouses off to die?

This is not about me, or my miliitary serice. I stepped up; you didn't. You advocate something that can escalate and cause people to needlessly and usellessly lose their lives, but you aren't prepeared to send you own. This is the same thing being advocated by the Tea Party types in the US. War, war, war, as long as it isn't me. That's cowardice, Pondering.

I simply don't know how you can imply anything about me or queston what I would have done, or would do, considering I served.

You arrogance is breathtaking; it makes me proud of the fact I have NEVER voted Liberal. And by the way, I don't believe you have ever voted anything else. Nope, if anyone should feel shame, its you. You don't though. There's a word for that you know.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I hate the fact that all the media coverage down plays anything to do about Syria in this conflict.  The Eastern part of Syria is under the control of this group and our government with the support of the Opposition is still trying to overthrow the elected government. The Syrians under the control of ISIS are just as vunerable to the atrocities that have been reported.  They bleed and die when beheaded just like a Kurd or Iraqi.

What I would like my government to do about the situation in Syria, Iraq and Kurdistan where ISIS is attacking the democratically chosen governments of Syria, Iraq and Kurdistan is stop the sanctions against Syria and withdraw all support from any anti-Syrian fighters in Eastern Syria.  At the same time they should urge the FSA to accept an immediate ceasefire and thus allow the Syrian government to send its best troops east to meet this threat to its soverignity and its people lives. Free up the Syrian army that is being pinned down by Western backed insurgents and I think they might be a match for the hardened fighters in ISIS.

Sorry but I thought I would bump my thoughts on the subject at hand instead of the norm of someone bickering with Pondering.

I think our government also needs to work though diplomatic channels to get the Saudis to stop fueling the conflict with armaments. Since everyone seems to agree who the real enemy is (at least this week) lets help the people of Syria and Iraq defeat them themselves. The last thing they need is more military help from the West.  After destablizng Iraq and attempting the same thing in Syria the best we can do is leave them alone militarily.  If we want to send food aid and maybe pay the cost of supplying and outfitting a few hundred Cuban doctors we could really help the people in the war torn areas.

NDPP

Krop's point is well taken. UK's David Cameron has announced his intention to bomb ISIL in  Syria, WITHOUT any notice or consent to/from the Syrian government. The implications and possible consequences of bombing attacks upon Syria, including a possible  and arguably justifiable response from Syria, Iran or even Russia, are too alarming to contemplate.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I hate the fact that all the media coverage down plays anything to do about Syria in this conflict.  The Eastern part of Syria is under the control of this group and our government with the support of the Opposition is still trying to overthrow the elected government. The Syrians under the control of ISIS are just as vunerable to the atrocities that have been reported.  They bleed and die when beheaded just like a Kurd or Iraqi.

What I would like my government to do about the situation in Syria, Iraq and Kurdistan where ISIS is attacking the democratically chosen governments of Syria, Iraq and Kurdistan is stop the sanctions against Syria and withdraw all support from any anti-Syrian fighters in Eastern Syria.  At the same time they should urge the FSA to accept an immediate ceasefire and thus allow the Syrian government to send its best troops east to meet this threat to its soverignity and its people lives. Free up the Syrian army that is being pinned down by Western backed insurgents and I think they might be a match for the hardened fighters in ISIS.

Sorry but I thought I would bump my thoughts on the subject at hand instead of the norm of someone bickering with Pondering.

I think our government also needs to work though diplomatic channels to get the Saudis to stop fueling the conflict with armaments. Since everyone seems to agree who the real enemy is (at least this week) lets help the people of Syria and Iraq defeat them themselves. The last thing they need is more military help from the West.  After destablizng Iraq and attempting the same thing in Syria the best we can do is leave them alone militarily.  If we want to send food aid and maybe pay the cost of supplying and outfitting a few hundred Cuban doctors we could really help the people in the war torn areas.

First of "instead of the norm of someone bickering with Pondering", LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree entirely with your post. You are spot-on!

Sean in Ottawa

But Pondering's latest point is interesting-- she suggests that if you serve you have no right to criticize, even in retirement, the options for the use of the military.

That is quite interesting. It is of course quite in line with the lifetime silent loyalty that Harper wants from public servants. This is no minor point either as the political freedom of those working for the government is a significant distinction between the parties today.

Are we certain Pondering is a Liberal rather than a Conservative here to embarass the Liberal party? She has certainly done more to embrass the Liberals than to help their cause and this is a very interesting slip. If Pondering is a Conservative plant to make the Liberals look bad perhaps it is better to ignore her than play along -- even though the embarassment of the Liberal party is hardly a huge tragedy.

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