I Support Cheri DiNovo
March 17, 2010 - 2:45pm
I have been a member of the New Demorcratic Party for over 30 years. Cheri DiNovo is my MPP. I have worked on all her campaigns and will continue to do so. She is a stellar politician, utterly without pretense who has always stood up for the poor and marginalized in our society. We need more like her. What sometimes perturbs me about the left is the minute someone strays from the rigid party line they are cast as a pariah and unfit to govern. Ms. DiNovo was not giving Israel carte blanche to carry on as they are. She was simply trying to tone down inflammatory rhetoric and search for a peaceful solution. I support her efforts and those who work together in the Middle East for a peaceful and just solution.
This could give a whole new meaning to the phrase Board wars. I'm getting the popcorn.
Hahahaha. Pulling up a seat now. Who has a score card handy?
I'm closing this. There is already an open thread on the topic. Please post there until it's full.
EDITED TO ADD: Now Open for Business.
Quoted from Stargazer in the previous thread.
remind, what you are getting here is justified outrage. Cheri seems to have the MSM and the powerful Tarek Fatah on her side.
She is NOT A VICTIM.
What sometimes perturbs me about the sorry excuse for a left we have in Parliament is that the minute someone strays from the bounds of acceptable discourse as defined by Peter Shurman, they are cast as hatemongers and unfit to even speak.
And if no public statement is ever made? Then we're left with the innuendo and frenzy-mongering of the MSM against the left and against supporters of the Palestinian cause, and the story about "death threats" etc. passes into the realm of commonly accepted history.
Willingly or not, this individual's actions (speech - vote - censorship of criticism - self-portrayal as victim of the anti-apartheid crazies) situates itself squarely within the Harperite campaign, which poses grave dangers to the progressive movements in this country. That's why her friends and supporters have a responsibility to encourage her to speak out and clarify the situation, as well as to retract her support for Shurman's draconian motion.
Unionist, I should just wait until you post and add "ditto".
p-sto - I completely understand what you are saying and to a point I agree. The thing is, it seemed to me that she used the "death threats" as a means to stifle any and all debate. In all honesty, were she to produce this information to the police, or make it public somehow, then people like myself will be more than willing to accept that and condemn those who sent the threats. Until then all we have is her facebook breakdown. Nothing else.
Why I say she is not a victim is because she willingly walked into the whole freedom of speech thing and came down on the side of oppressors. How can there be any headway made in Israel when we cannot even speak about it here without being called antisemitic - which is the side Cheri chose to align herself with.
If you're read enough of her new idol, Tarek Fatah, you'll also see that she now sides with a pro-American anti-Muslim man. I subscribe to his news, and most of it is pretty damned hateful.
Back to the article that Michelle posted in the previous thread at #47
Who knows perhaps it's just business, it could just as easily be her taking some time to recover from a breakdown. Why demand an answer now when an answer next week will do just as well. At the moment I'm most offended by journalists who have taken it upon themselves to use this incident to further an agenda with no evidence that DiNovo would want it portrayed as it is.
Totally agree p-sto.
Israeli Apartheid and the Nakba
[Link deleted]
"There can be absolutely no doubt that Israel has created an inhuman, illegal and wholly disgraceful Apartheid state, and the international community will never be able to excuse itself if it takes no action against this blatant, ongoing and in-plain-sight crime against humanity.
Please send the link to this video to your elected representative and make sure he or she does something about it.."
[Moderator's note: I've deleted the link. NDPP, don't link to anti-semitic sites]
"If you're read enough of her new idol, Tarek Fatah, you'll also see that she now sides with a pro-American anti-Muslim man. I subscribe to his news, and most of it is pretty damned hateful."
Fatah IS Muslim. or maybe you think that in addition to "self-hating Jews", there are also "self-hating Muslims".
To me, the claim about threats, or at least harassment at home, is entirely believable, btw. Anyone who has any kind of public profile at all, especially on a controversial issue, will get weird messages from ... somewhere out there. I've had a couple of cyberstalkers over the years, and yes, it's upsetting because you don't know what they intend or how seriously to take the irrational hostility. You just sit there thinking, "Wow, somebody really does hate me." And then you don't know what to do.
I think I would call police about a death threat, but mostly I think that people try to believe that they're dealing with mere nuisance. Nuisance is a nuisance, and harassment at home is definitely beyond what anyone should have to put up with. But a lot of people do. It kinda comes with the territory, unfortunately.
NDPP, much as I sincerely appreciate all the material you post on important subjects, you do us no favours by linking to Holocaust-deniers and anti-semites like Gilad Atzmon and Anthony Lawson. I'm sure you don't want to prove that the Harpers and Kenneys and Shurmans and Dimants and Farbers of this world are correct, so kindly get that toxic crap out of here. Thanks.
ETA: And yes, indeedy, Stockholm, Gilad Atzmon is Jewish and anti-semitic, just as Tarek Fatah is Muslim and Islamophobic. The world is full of passing strange things!
Everybody keeps bringing up the police. She's made no public statement since the incident. Would the police be allowed to disclose anything to the public without her permission?
p-sto, I meant to suggest that I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't called the police, but you're right: it's none of our business until something can be proved.
p-sto, I meant to suggest that I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't called the police, but you're right: it's none of our business until something can be proved.
It would truly have been none of our business if she hadn't disclosed it in front of a few thousand people on Facebook. Why did she do that? And once she does it, privacy is hard to plead.
Not sure of the value of giving completely uncritical, carte blanche support to any politician or party. And not sure of the value of completely writing off politicians for some indiscretion or other. Is there no middle ground? Nobody's perfect. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree on issues - even burning hot issues - because other burning hot issues of perhaps even greater importance may arise where we require broad unity - and that can cut across the political spectrum.
Bob Rae could do no wrong and some people vilified, demonized and blamed his critics for the rise of neo-Conservatism in Ontario. "Don't blame me, I voted NDP" was the rallying cry as they flailed around looking for people to blame for their disastrous 1995 wipe-out. Until Rae left and joined the Liberals.
In Cuba, they don't build statues of people until they've passed on to the next world (well they wouldn't say it that way).
Sorry to have missed your point skdadl, it does make sense. Thanks for clarifying.
That pretty much constitues a public statement (her facebook posting I mean).
Stock, I know Fatah is Muslim, and yes, I think he does have an issue with Muslims, or more specifically, ones that do not think like him.
It would truly have been none of our business if she hadn't disclosed it in front of a few thousand people on Facebook. Why did she do that? And once she does it, privacy is hard to plead.
She can has teh upset? I often do, although I haven't often done it online (knock on wood). If I have to cry and swear at the keyboard, I send emails to pogge. (See, synthome: that's me doing self-promo.)
It was some of the other things she said that I still have probs with. But yes, harassment is wrong, punkt.
Here is an interesting Winnipeg Free Press letter to the editor from someone named Adrian Fine.
"DEAR EDITOR:
Re: The editorial on Israel Apartheid Week (Freedom trumps decency, March 6). You accuse IAW of "distortions" of the facts but then proceed to fill your editorial with so many untruths that even this term provides an inadequate description. In your case "contortions" would be more apt!"
See link above for more information.
Thankfully, Adrian Fine noticed that the Winnipeg Free Press used the term "so-called" Occupied Territories. Fine also pointed out a couple of other discrepancies.
ETA: And yes, indeedy, Stockholm, Gilad Atzmon is Jewish and anti-semitic, just as Tarek Fatah is Muslim and Islamophobic. The world is full of passing strange things!
I believe that Atzmon converted to Christianity - but i digress. So, Unionist, if you think Tarek Fatah is an Islamophobic Muslim because he isn't pro-palestinian enough for you - what does that make you - an anti-semitic Jew??? What about Catholics who denounce the way priests have sexually abused kids - are they all self-hating catholics?
I applaud anyone who is willing to attack their own religion since i think that all religions are crap. I applaud Fatah for helping make Islam look bad just as i applaud people with the courage to stand up to the repressions and outrages of the catholic church etc...
I have no interest in discussing this thread drift with you, after all I did was make a comment in response to your silly statement that a Muslim can't be anti-Muslim.
Stock, I know Fatah is Muslim, and yes, I think he does have an issue with Muslims, or more specifically, ones that do not think like him.
I think it is probably more accurate to say he represents one tiny group of muslims who have issues with another tiny group of muslims (and vice versa.)
She was simply trying to tone down inflammatory rhetoric and search for a peaceful solution.
Believe it or not, that's the argument put forward by all censors. Just yesterday the Iranian intelligence minister said in an interview that the Iranian media has become really peaceful since those 90+ troublemaking journalists have been sent to jail...
Tell it to Desmond Tutu. But what would he know?
Ok, folks, I've been keeping a sort of informal score. At the end of the first period:
Tune in after the break to see if the CDN supporters can rally and turn this game around.
Canadian Jewish News:
http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18765&It...
Meanwhile, Sandra Bullock moved out of the house, her and Jesse James shared, as he apparently has been fucking around with another woman for the last 11 months.
Meanwhile, Sandra Bullock moved out of the house, her and Jesse James shared, as he apparently has been fucking around with another woman for the last 11 months.
Huh?
Thread jumps shark.
That's the third time in about a week-and-a-half that someone has said a thread has jumped the shark. Why now?
What's next, "Sit on it"?
A little nostalgia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE
I didn't see the two earlier uses. What should I have said instead? We have lift-off? Ground control to Major Tom? Toto, we're not in Kansas any more?
Work with me here, al-Q.
Well remind has successful refocused the thread with her suggestion that the level of our discourse is about the same as idle gossip. But for some of us this is the best we can do, it's a serious discussion. Thus skdadl you should have responded by getting the thread back on topic, perhaps with something like this.
OK, so Cheri isn't perfect. Who is?
And so, not every one of her views aligns perfectly with the self annointed progressive left.
She's still better than most of the other politicians out there, by a long shot.
Her contribution to get minimum wage lifted was huge, and gave the NDP a victory.
She continues to work tirelessly on real issues such as affordable housing, and social assistance rates, not BS issues like the credit card fee.
Her behaviour wasn't great. She really should stay off political forums and blogs, as we all get emotional and say things that politicians aren't supposed to say.
Should she apologize? You need to understand how media works, before that questions can be answered.
Right now, very few people know about the incident, and it hasn't really cost her anything.
However, were she to publicly apologize, suddenly it's news and 30 times as many people here about it, and judge her for it.
So, sadly, while she might want to apologize, any political handler worth the minimum wage she fought for, would advise her to say nothing about it, and let it blow over.
Of all the things wrong in Liberal Ontario, we're supposed to believe Cheri Dinovo is it? Don't make us laugh. She's worth a dozen Pinocchio McGuiltys and any of his underlings running things.
Fidel's right - global warming is worse also.
Serious question... if she apologized - who would think ill of her, other than those who want anti-Israel dissent crushed?
Stock, I know Fatah is Muslim, and yes, I think he does have an issue with Muslims, or more specifically, ones that do not think like him.
I think it is probably more accurate to say he represents one tiny group of muslims who have issues with another tiny group of muslims (and vice versa.)
I would say he has discovered how to become a darling of the dominant political culture and media for whom muslims are convenient scapegoats.
In one of his mailout articles he quoted Daniel Pipes as some kind of authority. Not a fan of his writing nor his politics.
That's right. We had the first government action on GHG emissions in Canada right here during Ontario's first NDP Government. But this is off-topic in a thread about supporting Cheri Dinovo, I must admit.
I think someone should apologize for making us endure their anti-Dinovo rhetoric in thread after thread. We get your point already. Do you have anything good to say about Cheri Dinovo, or is it all negative? What about the anti-war movement demanding at least an apology from actual war crims?
This this forum came from discussions about IAW, I'll post here.
From GlobalPost.com:
If any steps are to be taken toward peace, [BU Students for Israel Co-President Rachelle] Rubin said movements such as IAW need to end.
"Weeks like Israel Apartheid Week completely destroy the road to peace," she said. "It doesn't include any dialogue, any desire to impart fact. It's very one-sided and it's not a one-sided issue. There has to be an examination of both sides."
My interpretation of the quote above is that the Israelis will not negotiate until movements such as IAW end. Once the people in IAW have stopped speaking, then the Israelis may start negotiating. Strangely, if IAW and its supporters stop speaking, the Israelis will hear no complaints. With no complaints, there won't be any reason for Israel to negotiate.
Yes, of course. It's Israeli Apartheid Week that's responsible for the continued occupation in the West Bank and the expansion of settlements. How could we have not seen this sooner?
Frankly, rhetoric like that only shows that Zionist ideologues will use the slightest excuse as a pretext for the Israeli government's behaviour and will deflect on the flimsiest of premises.
As for DiNovo, I don't think there's a serious chance of her apologizing, her personality doesn't lend itself to self-criticism or admitting error. The best hope is she'll either adopt a better position or at least a more nuanced one when Shurman moves this motion next year and let's hope the ONDP follows the example of the federal party and either votes against the motion (rather than "abstaining" - whatever that means in a political forum that doesn't record abstentions) or at least moves an amendment.
Yes, Fidel. She is, by all accounts, an amazing activist and ally on issues from workers' rights to LGBT rights to standing up for the poor and oppressed.
That's why an apology on this one issue will strengthen, not hurt, her reputation and her ability to continue to champion these causes.
Now, do you have any word of criticism of what she did on this one occasion... or is it all positive?
Yes, Fidel. She is, by all accounts, an amazing activist and ally on issues from workers' rights to LGBT rights to standing up for the poor and oppressed.
That's why an apology on this one issue will strengthen, not hurt, her reputation and her ability to continue to champion these causes.
Now, do you have any word of criticism of what she did on this one occasion... or is it all positive?
I agree with Noam Chomsky when he says that meaningful change in Israel and Palestine can only be affected by US Government and its foreign policies toward Israel. The relationship between the US and Israel is not what it was between the US and apartheid South Africa. Some things are not as bad in Israel, and some things are worse than they were in Pic Botha's South Africa. The world is run according to a mafia don, and that's Uncle Sam, according to Noam. Nothing happens unless the don says so, and I don't think the don is ready to give up on his frontline state in the Middle East yet before moving on to the next country targeted for frontline status. And there is a colder war on right now, and I think that Chomsky is right in that anti-war activists should focus on crimes of the state. And we have plenty of state and war crimes to focus on right here on this continent home to vicious empire central. We could aid all nations where the don interferes politically by raising awareness about the source of the political interference right next door, Canada's largest trade partner whose mafia capos control so much of our economy and influencing Canadian foreign policy in other countries as if our leaders are mere puppets on strings.
The Catholic Church has actually gone on record as opposing some of the most vicious imperialists in British history from time to time. And yes, it did end badly for Catholics, monks and their in general. That's not a good omen for the anti-war movement faced with opposing a global king and what is the most well stocked army in world history. I think the left has to ask itself though whether we can be satisfied picking small fights with the bully's pipsqueeks, or do we take on the bully himself and his collaborationist minions in Ottawa?
I think you are confusing Pik Bohta with PW Botha. Not that Pik was a whole lot better for being a "liberal" defender of apartheid.
The Catholic Church has actually gone on record as opposing some of the most vicious imperialists in British history from time to time.
Ok, I know they went on record opposing Henry VIII. Did you have any other examples?
The Catholic Church has actually gone on record as opposing some of the most vicious imperialists in British history from time to time.
Ok, I know they went on record opposing Henry VIII. Did you have any other examples?
The Catholic Church was kicked out of England at that point. Catholics were rounded up and slaughtered. Monasteries and abbeys were razed to the ground, and monks who didn't flee were murdered. England's only social services were pretty much outlawed. There was no more opposition from the Church in vicious empire central after that point, no. I see what you're getting at. Henry didn't have Catherine of Aragon murdered though because he was afraid of retribution by Spain.
What I am saying is that today's vicious empire central still exists and is well fed since Thatcherite educated Mbeki made the economy in South Africa even worse than it was under Pic Botha. And our quislings in Ottawa have their heads so far up the king's derriere today that they need fresh air pumping to them.
damn I thought I read "fresh air pumkins".......and was trying to put that into a derriere equation.
I don't even know why we have a parliament anymore with stooges like Harper and Iggy taking up space in Ottawa. The two of them should just take turns reading aloud from the imperial directive sent from Warshington first Monday morning of every month and save us the charade that they're actually running things. It's a total farce.
OK, so Cheri isn't perfect. Who is?
And so, not every one of her views aligns perfectly with the self annointed progressive left.
She's still better than most of the other politicians out there, by a long shot...
I don't understand these kinds of comments. They're portraying the people who are crticial of DiNovo with all these stereotypes of people on the left. That we're purists who denounce anyone who strays from the party line, that we're doctrinaire, wtc.
We need to remember, that it was DiNovo who denounced us and called people nasty things on facebook and whatnot. Why aren't people saying "Okay, so the IAW folks aren't perfect. Who is? But so, not every one of their views aligns perfectly with the self-anointed adjudicator of what is acceptable on the left, Cheri DiNovo"
I mean, this is really showing some messed up and unbalanced power relations between activists and politicians on the left. It's almost saying that we need to quickly forgive them for their transgressions, while they are free to constantly denounce us for our principles.
I quite agree genstrike, which is why I've been staying out of this thread. It's pretty pathetic attempt to make us feel guilty for "picking on poor Cheri" when she quite clearly was wrong. For me it cannot ever be "my party right or wrong".
I've gone back and forth on this over the past wk or so, and I've decided I'll still support Cheri, but she really REALLY needs to learn how to handle dissent more effectively. Her activist creds are spotless - she's fearless about standing up for unpopular causes (like looking to repeal the pit bull ban - but I digress). But she puts her foot in it, as happens, and she responds by throwing a hissy, making claims of being threatened?
Of course I don't know whether or not she really was threatened, but her behaviour on FB was ridiculous. This whole episode suggests a disappointing level of emotional maturity.
get a grip stargazer, and start stating truths as to what people were actually taking exception to, and that was some people having the unmitigated gall, and that is putting it nicely, in calling her a liar about getting threats, and in challenging her sexuality claims.
There was not 1 person who approved of her actions in the legistlature.
and there is absolutely NO evidence to your claims of "my party right or wrong".
You "get a grip" remind. I am allowed to have my own opinion. Too bad it isn't the same as yours. Your fucking right I challenge her new found gayness, given she was living as a straight person oh, up until the little row on FB. Sorry but co-opting the voices of those she attacked doesn't make her a good person. It makes her look stupid and petty. But I know, she's a woman, so we always have to stand behind her right? Regardless of what she did. That's a page from your play book, not mine.
And let's be serious for a moment. There are people who would exploit this situation with Cheri Dinovo sooner than defend their own parties' weak policies and boondoggles. There are people who claim to be on your side politically, but then they spend an inordinate amount of time criticizing the same party they, and just like you, claim to support.
Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the fear and doubt to vote for your own interests. - Dr Strangebloggen
It's important not to lose sight of the main issue, which is our attitude as progressive Canadians to the struggle of the Palestinian people and the right of Canadians to speak out in its favour. What DiNovo said ran counter to the ONDP's position, and the leader acknowledged that, albeit not as publicly as DiNovo's speech and vote. DiNovo's meltdown, the threats, etc. are really a distraction from the important task, which is to ensure the ONDP (and the NDP as a whole) does not think that its allies don't give a damn. The federal NDP is still participating in this fraudulent CCPAA, and voices need to be raised against the attempt to ban criticism of Israel. The NDP must not be allowed to be led by the pro-Israel stand of Wasylycia-Leis and Pat Martin and the like.
That's the danger represented by what DiNovo did. From all I've heard, it ws a departure from her progressive politics and activism. I think it would have a powerful and unifying effect if someone could convince her to retract, in a facesaving way, and at least fall in line with the leader's statement. That shouldn't be too much to ask of a sitting caucus member, should it?
A little bit of thread drift - This is an interesting article by Gershon Baskin, an elected leader in the Green Movement of Israel, on what's likely to occur if the two-track direction doesn't get on the rails.
And let's be serious for a moment. There are people who would exploit this situation with Cheri Dinovo sooner than defend their own parties' weak policies and boondoggles. There are people who claim to be on your side politically, but then they spend an inordinate amount of time criticizing the same party they, and just like you, claim to support.
Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the fear and doubt to vote for your own interests. - Dr Strangebloggen
Fidel, are you saying I don't support the NDP? That would be wrong, because I do. I know who I vote for and it has been the same party since I was 19 and could vote, and I vote in every election. Anyways, as usual unionist says it better than I ever could with his post above.
I believe in the NDP, and I also believe in the NDP not throwing us under a bus, which DiNovo clearly did. An apology would be amazing, but I don't think we will ever hear it. Remember Cheri quoted Takek Fatah and called those of us who do not share her views "fascists". Unacceptable from anyone, especially a person whose party I vote for. This is why this whole issue has gotten me, and many others, upset. Besides that, I wish she had refrained from quoting anyone who appears to idolize Daniel Pipes (as Tarek appears to do - he certainly quotes and refers to him enough).
Oh...so now that I called you on the partisanship nonsense, you are going to try women's solidarity instead?
And it was not your opinion I was taking exception to, as you well know, it was your slanting incorrectly what had transpired here.
Plenty of people are living in the closet still, especially politicians, it is not our business to out them, nor challenge them if and when they do come out.
Personally lost count years ago, with how many people I knew who were married and had children, yet often all of sudden one would state they were non-hetrosexual.
We do not challenge people's self-assertations here about who/what they are, nor should we ever start.
Is it possible, for a moment, to stop talking about whether DiNovo is queer - like, who actually cares?
I'd prefer some comment on this.
Which way is the ONDP, and the NDP as a whole, going on this fundamental question, and how can we best influence its direction?
You "get a grip" remind. I am allowed to have my own opinion. Too bad it isn't the same as yours. Your fucking right I challenge her new found gayness, given she was living as a straight person oh, up until the little row on FB. Sorry but co-opting the voices of those she attacked doesn't make her a good person. It makes her look stupid and petty. But I know, she's a woman, so we always have to stand behind her right? Regardless of what she did. That's a page from your play book, not mine.
Unless, of course, they are a sex worker
How can I possibly be slanting my own opinion? You have yours and I have mine. I think yours is slanted, you think mine is. Why bother fighting over this?
I challenge her assertion because it was in response to her calling a gay man an "idiot" on her facebook. Then when she was called on it, she claimed to be gay, which was news for the gay activist she called an "idiot" (and news to a lot of other people).
It is entirely possible she is gay, but to me it appears that she wanted to claim an identity just to rack up some points in that particular FB exchange. It's a great tactic when you're in a corner of which you put yourself (you being the figurative "you").
The fact that this was an NDP rep engaged in this is hurtful because many of us trust the NDP and wouldn't vote otherwise.
Her meltdown isn't going to change how I vote, but it would be nice if she stepped up and said something.
And I apologize for the comment I put up above re: sexism. That wasn't very nice of me.
Most Canadians vote for parties and not individuals. We don't vote for presidents or even senators here, as much as some people would like this to be the case. As a Canadian I vote for the party that has the best overall view of the forest and not any single tree or issue. I would never consider not voting NDP in one single riding based on an issue that is more federal in scope than provincial. It's our US-friendly stooges in Ottawa who have let all of us down with respect to their constant cow-towing to Uncle Sam and all of his badly-run client states, like Israel. Gaza was bombed and people died. Our stooges in Ottawa said and did absolutely nothing about it instead of using Ottawa's established diplomatic channels with various countries. Our colonial administrators in Ottawa are the ones who need the focus and attention of true friends of Israelis and Palestinians. The Anti-Israeli apartheid movement doesn't seem to be breaking up by what I'm assuming is a non-binding motion by Toronto's legislature. Perhaps Cheri Dinovo will change her mind at some point, but I think, too, that people in her riding don't vote for her personal views on federal foreign policy.
Don't kid yourself Fidel. People do indeed vote for individuals. Regardless of the party, offend the populace and you lose that seat. Have the populace love you and you can do almost anything.
Ya I think there there have been all of one or two independents in the House of Commons over the last ten years. Most sitting members were elected after taking refuge under one parties' bannner and platform or another.
Fidel, I don't quite understand why you can't see that this isn't just a question of foreign policy. There is a multi-tiered campaign on at the moment to limit the rights of Canadian citizens to freedom of expression. I'm sure that, if it succeeds, both Cheri DiNovo and you will feel bad, perhaps even very bad, but by then it will be a little late.
Are you truly saying that because the Charter and the constitution are federal, people who are "just" provincial politicians aren't expected to be all that up on them?
Fidel's point shouldn't be underestimated. I maybe wrong, but I think the two most important factors that determine voting patterns may be the party brand and the leader, followed by issues/platform. Not to say that the local candidate doesn't matter because they do, particularly in a first past the post system where a small shift can make a big difference. I know Dinovo (and her team) worked very, very hard to win.
I think old line party voters will tend to be the more discriminating voters if only from their own point of view. They vote for both Bay Street flavours when it comes to provincial-federal elections. They are the ones who believe there are significant differences between Liberal and Tory party policies, like when they and the press make an election campaign in Ontario all about public school funding. For the 22 percent who selected this government in Toronto, that was a major election issue for them and the smaller percentage who voted Tory. But the truth is that those people vote Tory or Liberal and vice versa every election come hell or high water. Some large minority of voters doing the choosing are the ones who feel it's in their best interest to vote Liberal or Tory and has very little to do with whether they believe McGuinty is a good leader or whether their MPP is a good doobie or not. They are actually voting for either of two wings of the same Bay Street Party whether they want to admit it or not. The differences are negligible from very many NDPers points of view on the matter.
Fidel, I don't quite understand why you can't see that this isn't just a question of foreign policy. There is a multi-tiered campaign on at the moment to limit the rights of Canadian citizens to freedom of expression. I'm sure that, if it succeeds, both Cheri DiNovo and you will feel bad, perhaps even very bad, but by then it will be a little late.
I think you know a lot more about SPP and general moves to integrate Can-Am economy and security etc than I do. I'm going to have to acquiesce to your authority on this matter. I'm not crazy about Cheri Dinovo's views on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, no I am not. But I think the NDP is more for maintaining a sovereign parliament and constitution than either of the other two as the historical record reveals. I really don't believe Cheri Dinovo's vote on the motion against AIAW is going to make a significant difference in the larger scheme of things while, at the same time, Canada continues to be swallowed by corporate American and rightwing interests in general. It doesn't seem to affect the way the 22% of registered voters select governments in this province. For those highly discerning voters, Canadian or American ownership and control makes little difference.
In non Cheri Dinovo related news...
facebook group - I support the right to speak out against Apartheid
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copy and paste their email addresses into the to: field
below are their email addresses separated by both commas and semicolons, use whichever one works with your email program
minedu@leg.gov.mb.ca, rob.altemeyer@leg.gov.mb.ca, minmit@leg.gov.mb.ca, minett@leg.gov.mb.ca, sharon.blady@leg.gov.mb.ca, mincon@leg.gov.mb.ca, rick.borotsik@leg.gov.mb.ca, erna.braun@leg.gov.mb.ca, marilyn.brick@leg.gov.mb.ca, stuart.briese@leg.gov.mb.ca, drew.caldwell@leg.gov.mb.ca, miniem@leg.gov.mb.ca, cliff.cullen@leg.gov.mb.ca, len.derkach@leg.gov.mb.ca, greg.dewar@leg.gov.mb.ca, myrna.driedger@leg.gov.mb.ca, peter.dyck@leg.gov.mb.ca, ralph.eichler@leg.gov.mb.ca, david.faurschou@leg.gov.mb.ca, jon.gerrard@leg.gov.mb.ca, kelvin.goertzen@leg.gov.mb.ca, cliff.graydon@leg.gov.mb.ca, gerald.hawranik@leg.gov.mb.ca, george.hickes@leg.gov.mb.ca, minlab@leg.gov.mb.ca, minhcd@leg.gov.mb.ca, gerard.jennissen@leg.gov.mb.ca, bidhu.jha@leg.gov.mb.ca, bonnie.korzeniowski@leg.gov.mb.ca, kevin.lamoureux@leg.gov.mb.ca, minlg@leg.gov.mb.ca, minfam@leg.gov.mb.ca, larry.maguire@leg.gov.mb.ca, mincht@leg.gov.mb.ca, doug.martindale@leg.gov.mb.ca, hugh.mcfadyen@leg.gov.mb.ca, minaed@leg.gov.mb.ca, minwsd@leg.gov.mb.ca, bonnie.mitchelson@leg.gov.mb.ca, tom.nevakshonoff@leg.gov.mb.ca, minhlt@leg.gov.mb.ca, blaine.pedersen@leg.gov.mb.ca, daryl.reid@leg.gov.mb.ca, minna@leg.gov.mb.ca, minhliv@leg.gov.mb.ca, leanne.rowat@leg.gov.mb.ca, mohinder.saran@leg.gov.mb.ca, ron.schuler@leg.gov.mb.ca, erin.selby@leg.gov.mb.ca, premier@leg.gov.mb.ca, heather.stefanson@leg.gov.mb.ca, minagr@leg.gov.mb.ca, minjus@leg.gov.mb.ca, mavis.taillieu@leg.gov.mb.ca, frank.whitehead@leg.gov.mb.ca, matt.wiebe@leg.gov.mb.ca, minfin@leg.gov.mb.ca
minedu@leg.gov.mb.ca; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; minfin@leg.gov.mb.ca
Step 2:
Fill out the subject line
suggested subject line: I oppose any motion to condemn IAW. I support free speech in Manitoba
Step 3:
Copy and paste the following letter. Edits, additions, and personal touches are welcome in your letters. If addressing it to a particular MLA, or your own MLA, put their name in the address line. Also, don't forget to sign it.
*************************
Dear Members of the Legislative Assembly:
I am writing in response to a proposed private members bill that condemns Israeli Apartheid Week (IAW), a series of campus-based educational events that takes place annually on campuses all over the world.
The motion, which will be introduced by Progressive Conservative MLA Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo), is an unprecedented attack on free speech in Manitoba. I condemn and oppose this motion and the decision of any MLA to support it.
IAW has grown in size and scope since it was first launched on campuses in Toronto in 2005, and now includes dozens of events in 60 cities worldwide including 3 cities in South Africa. IAW is marked by its inclusive and diverse nature, its respect for discussion and debate, and its call for peaceful solutions to the Israel-Palestine conflict. IAW has been endorsed and supported by dozens of organizations including student unions, trade unions, faith groups, and Jewish solidarity organizations.
The term "apartheid" is not a hateful one, nor is it on the "margins" of mainstream debate. Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter uses the term in his best-selling book Palestine: Peace, Not Apartheid. South African anti-apartheid campaigners, including Nobel Peace Prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu and President of the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) Willie Madisha, regularly use the term "apartheid" to describe the conditions in which Palestinians live both inside Israel and in the Occupied Territories. The term is also used widely inside Israel itself: former Israeli Prime Minister and current Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak recently used the term in a speech about the consequences of stalled peace talks.
The conditions in which Palestinians live clearly meet the definition of "apartheid" as described by the United Nations. The increasingly differential system of roads, housing, laws, access to resources, basic rights, living conditions, and quality of life between Jewish Israelis and Palestinians all point to a system of apartheid. Palestinians have the right to describe these conditions in the way they experience them.
In Manitoba, there have been a total of zero complaints to the university administration that we are aware of, zero violations of the University of Manitoba Respectful Work and Learning Policy, zero incidents of Jewish students being threatened or intimidated, and zero incidents of racism on campus as a result of IAW. While certain organizations and politicians have condemned IAW in the media and slandered and condemned IAW and IAW organizers, none had even attempted to contact organizers of IAW in Manitoba. Had they bothered to contact organizers or do the most basic of research, they would have found that IAW is an anti-racist event and that every event at the University of Manitoba was opened by reading a statement opposing racism.
You may disagree with an apartheid analysis of Israel, but you have no right to limit or restrict Palestinians and their supporters from expressing a completely legitimate perspective. A decision to condemn IAW would represent a serious setback for free speech in Manitoba, and should be reconsidered before it is approved. The Manitoba legislature should not be in the business of censorship. Furthermore, it is highly irresponsible for the Manitoba legislature to condemn student organized events when there are organized campaigns to ban these events. Fortunately the University of Manitoba administration has so far refused to infringe on free speech and students right to organize on campus.
In her press release at pcmanitoba.ca, Stefanson has clearly stated her intention: to "eradicate" IAW. This assault on free speech can not be tolerated, and I call on all democratic-minded MLAs to oppose this resolution.
I urge to rethink your position, to become more informed about this issue, and to demonstrate support for free speech in Manitoba - including for those political perspectives with which you might disagree.
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Sincerely,
XXXXXX
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Step 4:
Press send! If you get a response, please forward it to iaw.winnipeg@gmail.com
Step 5:
Invite anyone you think may be interested or concerned about these attacks on free speech in Manitoba.
Thread drift/ Everytime I see the thread time, I think of Red Norvo. http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=9915
I think I'll have to spin one of his records tonight. end thread drift
I'm not sure what the point is. Is the argument that because voters don't give a fuck about Israeli atrocities that it matters not what Cheri DiNovo says? What about the party activists who volunteer to knock on doors and make phone calls? Can they impact an election?
This past week it was reported that helicopters landed in a Chiapas rain forest, the indigenous population was roused from their sleep, herded onto the helicpters, their homes set ablaze, and then they were deposited into a slum some distance away. If Cheri DiNovo argued calling such an action by the Mexican government a criminal act and a crime against humanity because the words are too strong because, you know, US and Canadian corporations that intend to level those forests for more consumer shit matter too, would everyone be as charitable?
Somehow I doubt it. When the victims are perceived to be Muslim, however, all is reasonable. And DiNovo displayed her anti-Islamic bias on Facebook. Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc ..., have nothing to do with Palestine other than all three are predominantly Islamic.
I didn't see the two earlier uses. What should I have said instead? We have lift-off? Ground control to Major Tom? Toto, we're not in Kansas any more?
Work with me here, al-Q.
I'm not blaming you or anything - maybe you're expressing the collective unconscious. I just find it odd that this fairly obscure expression has cropped up on babble so many times recently.
wingynut, no here supported CDN's actions or position on this, except perhaps one newbie.
Myself, I think her office should be picketed, as politicians never advocate to silence free speech, full stop, and indeed anything beyond that is just additional transgression of social justice principles.
And quite frankly those in Manitoba who are facing the same should be out picketing their MLA's office and making large waves.
But that position stands apart from her personal life maltreatment that carried over here too, which should have been, and was taken exception to.
Yes, such terrible, terrible injusice. Imagine one can't publicly post to more than a 1,000 people, most of who are political activists, and not suffer a backlash. Huh. Still, as much as I can feel for DiNovo, as much as I want to share her pain and walk a mile in her shoes, today, I just can't stop thinking about some other people. Courageous people. Self-haters whose lives have been reduced to a living hell while seeking repreive for just two friends from something Ms. DiNovo denies exists: Apartheid.
“I have always loved Israel,” said Mrs Zakai, 43. “But to see the depth of the racism of our neighbours has made me question why we live in this country.”
Three of the couple’s six dogs have been mysteriously poisoned; Mrs Zakai’s car has been sprayed with the words ”Arab lover” and the windows smashed; her three children in school are regularly taunted and bullied by other pupils; and a collection of vintage cars in the family’s yard has been set on fire in what police say was an arson attack.
Israel's 'No renting to Arabs' policy :: Jewish couple lose court battle to help Bedouin friendswell just shade me in as unimpressed with Canadian "activists" screaming about IAW suppression, when indeed one sees very few CAW (Canadian Apartheid week) activists of any type.
Guess they figure they can just go on ignoring the Apartheid in Canada, because afterall they are busy worrying about Israel's, showing they care and all, of course it is about that which they can do nothing, unlike that which they can/could actually do about Canada's similar state of being.
Should they not be in denial about its existence, of course.
well just shade me in as unimpressed with Canadian "activists" screaming about IAW suppression, when indeed one sees very few CAW (Canadian Apartheid week) activists of any type.
Guess they figure they can just go on ignoring the Apartheid in Canada, because afterall they are busy worrying about Israel's, showing they care and all, of course it is about that which they can do nothing, unlike that which they can/could actually do about Canada's similar state of being.
Should they not be in denial about its existence, of course.
Actually, many IAWs have included workshops on Canadian Apartheid. In fact, I believe it was the main theme to IAW 2008 or 2009. In Winnipeg, we devoted one day out of our week to Canadian Apartheid.
Maybe unlike Cheri DiNovo and most of the critics, politicians and organizations condemning IAW or calling for it to be banned you should actually do some of the most basic research before you knock IAW.
That's good if they're against Canadian Apartheid. We should see them protesting against the stoogeocracy on Parliament Hill anytime soon then.
That's good if they're against Canadian Apartheid. We should see them protesting against the stoogeocracy on Parliament Hill anytime soon then.
Don't talk about Israeli Apartheid, talk about Canadian Apartheid! No, don't talk about that, go protest the "stoogeocracy"! No, don't talk about that, protest China! No, don't talk about China, talk about abortion! No, don't talk about abortion, talk about poverty! No, don't talk about poverty, talk about Sudan! Why are you assholes talking about Sudan when you should be talking about Palestine!
Deflect, deflect, deflect. All to undeservedly blast what is one of the best, most active, most vibrant, most creative activist movements in Canada these days. I used to expect better from babble.
Fidel, you missed my point last time (although I'm always happy to talk about the SPP), so I'll try once more.
Israel is going to attack Iran. When that happens (when, not if), and when the conflict will immediately be in danger of spreading to other countries in the region, notably Pakistan, a lot of Canadians are going to want to go out into the streets to protest.
They are going to want to protest especially if we have in power at the time a government that wants to get our troops entangled in whatever mess in the region follows hard upon.
There are at this very moment people in this country working very hard to make illegal the protests of Canadian citizens against anything Israel does or any Canadian complicity in those acts. Is my point coming through now?
You think that parliamentary condemnation of free expression is not a Canadian problem? You think that our involvement in the ME and Central Asia is not a Canadian problem? Think again.
That is absolutely true, genstrike. I think every Israeli Apartheid Week in Toronto that I've been to has contained at least one event which highlighted apartheid in Canada against Indigenous people.
This year (2010) there were three events that highlighted indigenous apartheid in Canada - including Shawn Brant from Tyendinaga on the Friday night event, who spoke about the lack of access to water in his community - a parallel to the shameful theft of water in Palestinian communities by Israel.
There is always an attempt to build solidarity across oppressed peoples at IAW, especially the Indigenous people of Turtle Island.
Good point, Skdadl, and I have to say now that I fully agree. Because after reading some news items in the last two days, I am beginning to realize just how loudly the war drums in the Israeli parliament have been beating. It doesn't look good.
I was at Curve Lake reserve a couple of days ago and someone had handmade street sign with the word "Gaza" on it. As Michelle says, people in Canada are fighting both fights.
Skdadl, you're scaring me. I really really hope you are wrong. A war with Iran with be a massive mistake. I can't even imagine how bad the outcome will be.
Next time someone tells me CDN is a-okay because she has good activist cred, I think I'll silently turn my head so I can be ill. This is the shit she supports.
Glad to hear that Michelle and genstrike too bad the ratios were not the other way around
Deflect, deflect, deflect. All to undeservedly blast what is one of the best, most active, most vibrant, most creative activist movements in Canada these days. I used to expect better from babble.
Genstrike, keep up the activism and the good work, and please don't blame babble. There are plenty of people here who are active in the real world and who understand the issue of Israeli apartheid very clearly. No need to get frustrated by one or two folks who are concerned about targeting DiNovo - although, the very fact that good folks would worry about that shows how dangerous it is when a noted activist and ally takes an anti-democratic stand on free debate. More people get confused when DiNovo does that than when Vic Toews (for example) does. That's why we have to speak out, not get diverted, but in DiNovo's case, seek to repair the damage and encourage her to see what she has done wrong.
But it's always good to criticize the colonies from the safety of the empire at home. Afterall, the imperialists in our midst prefer that we focus off of them and on to some other country thousands of miles away. That way the heat is off the vicious empire and their main stooges in Ottawa.
What happens when the US Military backs up the Israelis, and our stooges are still sending massive amounts of oil and gas and hydro-electric power at cut rates to torture and murder central south of us? When do we ever take on the crimes of the state here at home? We should focus our attack on one single ONDPer in Toronto you say? Get real. Faux lefties need a real plan other than to bring down the third party in a province where good things grow including welfare rolls and child poverty.
As I said, genstrike - don't blame babble. And I'd love to hear more about what's happening on this front in your province and in the student movement.
Faux lefties put party before values every time.
Yes I am always wanting to hear about tokenism too, from whom fidel calls faux lefties.... 30 years of trying to foster something beyond tokenism really leaves no room for naivety that masses of "lefties" will start caring in Canada about Canadian apartheid. Personally, I choose to pander no more.
First, it was rescue East Timorians, and then we can assist First Nations, then it was get rid of Apartheid in South Africa, then we can stand in solidarity with the indigenous peoples here at home and after all "we are working with them too, *insert name* spoke at our *insert venue" and now 30 odd years later, the new vogue to distract is Israel, and still nothing has been done to curb the racism here at home, let alone ending apartheid.
East Timorians are still suffering, South Africans, white ones that is, have swarmed into Canada, leaving that country without Drs and other professionals, after generations of their ancestors plundering the country.
No, I am no longer fooled by the "look over here they are worse" crowd, who insert tokenisms......to make themselves feel better. They are no damn better than CDN's denouncing freespeech.
Topical, significant and illustrative of dignified disagreement on the Left.
And most Canadians who participate in our obsolete electoral system, including most babblers I can only imagine, vote for political candidates belonging to parties and not independents. Perhaps you, too, have voted for someone representing one of the 20-some odd political parties in Canada and some of which are progressives for change even? Or are we all pure as newly fallen snow in December in this thread? blink-blink
Hey, I'll bet some of us are even concerned about Palestinian children's issues when it comes down to it. And yes, that was a direct in your face taunt for faux lefties.
Faux lefties have no principles only parties. They have no truth, only talking points. They have no direction, only diversions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Udnyng82EY&feature=player_embedded
Yes I am always wanting to hear about tokenism too, from whom fidel calls faux lefties.... 30 years of trying to foster something beyond tokenism really leaves no room for naivety that masses of "lefties" will start caring in Canada about Canadian apartheid. Personally, I choose to pander no more.
First, it was rescue East Timorians, and then we can assist First Nations, then it was get rid of Apartheid in South Africa, then we can stand in solidarity with the indigenous peoples here at home and after all "we are working with them too, *insert name* spoke at our *insert venue" and now 30 odd years later, the new vogue to distract is Israel, and still nothing has been done to curb the racism here at home, let alone ending apartheid.
East Timorians are still suffering, South Africans, white ones that is, have swarmed into Canada, leaving that country without Drs and other professionals, after generations of their ancestors plundering the country.
No, I am no longer fooled by the "look over here they are worse" crowd, who insert tokenisms......to make themselves feel better. They are no damn better than CDN's denouncing freespeech.
So, out of curiousity, are you involved in any activism at all besides indigenous solidarity?
If so, you're just as horrible of a person as I am for caring about Palestine.
And I think IAW's efforts go way beyond tokenism. I can really only speak for Winnipeg, but it was a genuine attempt at building solidarity, and a lot of people left that our event with more knowledge than when they came in, including myself.
But anything to satisfy yours and Cheri's irrational and uninformed hate-on for IAW and its organizers.
And who supplies apartheid Israel with more financial aid and weaponry than they send to South America and Africa combined total every year?
And who supplies them with an endless cornucopia of energy and raw materials and high tech parts for the US Military's weaponr and all on the cheap?
Cheri Dinovo?
And who supplies apartheid Israel with more financial aid and weaponry than they send to South America and Africa combined total every year? Cheri Dinovo?
Maybe the critics of IAW can find out if they actually went to an IAW event or bothered to contact the organizers of IAW instead of all this political posturing and talking out their asses.
And who supplies apartheid Israel with more financial aid and weaponry than they send to South America and Africa combined total every year? Cheri Dinovo?
Maybe the critics of IAW can find out if they actually went to an IAW event or bothered to contact the organizers of IAW instead of all this political posturing and talking out their asses.
I can tell you right now who does. Do you really wanna know? You might be disappointed to know the answer, like you were disappointed to know that the biggest student union in Canada supports the federal NDP.
And who supplies apartheid Israel with more financial aid and weaponry than they send to South America and Africa combined total every year? Cheri Dinovo?
Maybe the critics of IAW can find out if they actually went to an IAW event or bothered to contact the organizers of IAW instead of all this political posturing and talking out their asses.
I can tell you right now who does. Do you really wanna know? You might be disappointed to know the answer, like you were disappointed to know that the biggest student union in Canada supports the federal NDP.
(edited: Sorry, I got frustrated and carried away. Doing what Cheri should have done and stepping away from the keyboard for a bit)
If one can't criticize imperial projects because the left party of choices labels those who do anti-semites, one can hardly debate the character of the empire. Stop being stupid.
Likewise junior.
I don't acknowledge being stupid. You do. Chump.
Don't insult genstrike like that. It's against the rules. In fact, you should prolly apologize to him, FM.
*East Timorese
I don't support Cheri DiNovo. She is either seriously misguided, or pandering.
Serious question... if she apologized - who would think ill of her, other than those who want anti-Israel dissent crushed?"
Unionist,
To be clear about what we are talking about, I am referring to the rant on her Facebook account.
Currently, it isn't all that well known. A few people on rabble are talking about it, but it hasn't cuaght on in the mainstream press.
If she were to issue an apology, it would suddenly be picked up by the press, as it suddenly becomes validated news, as opposed to suspected rumour. So, politically, any advisor would tell her to say nothing on the subject and let it dissapear. That doesn't mean that she can't contact individuals and have discussions with them one-on-one.
As for reversing her position on IAW, we saw how effective Ignatieff was when he went from 'not losing any sleep' to 'war crimes'.
He's been pandering to the Israeli lobby ever since, not even having the courage to denounce the settlements.
Dinovo disagrees with the left on this issue. I see no need to dismiss her or stop supporting her because she stops short of perfection when it comes to voting progressive on each and every issue.
Closing for length.