If Paul Manly becomes the next GPC leader...

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture
If Paul Manly becomes the next GPC leader...

The NDP will be in an even deeper struggle than it is right now:

Manly gets it that a program for change must be tangible, must be something the voters see as relevant to their situations and their needs, that such a program can't connect with the voters if it is not unveiled until the last two weeks of an election

Unlike May, and perhaps unlike Singh, Manly gets it that the GPC's future, and the future of the left in Canada, lies in the party embracing class-conscious ecosocialism, in the vision of the Leap Manifesto-that there is no possibility of creating a green and egalitarian future within the existing economic system and within the current budget constraints.

Unlike either Singh or May, Manly gets it that transformative change at home is linked to the way Canada relates to the world, that it requires the adoption of an anti-oppression, and anti-imperialist approach to the rest of the world, as military intervention is both deeply damaging to the climate and to the ability of ordinary people around the world to create just, peaceful and prosperous societies for themselves to inhabit.

Manly understands that a party of change must be a party of inspiration and of vision, that personal charisma and the appearance of "respectability" are not, in and of themselves, of any real value in the question of choosing the leader of a party of change.

Whether Singh stays on as leader or eventually goes, the only chance the NDP will have of avoiding cataclysmic losses, losses even worse than those experienced Monday night-and quite frankly, it's an open question as to whether the NDP can go on if its seat count goes any lower than it did this time-the NDP needs to be aware of what the choice of Manly as the next GPC leader would mean, and to be prepared to make huge changes in policy, strategy and tactics if Manly is chosen.

 

 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

So Ken where did you get your high regard for Manley from. Are you sure you are not projecting onto him your ideal leadership qualities? Anyways please back up your high praise with some cites to articles that agree with your view or did you cut and paste his election material?

The Greens are not an eco-socialist alternative at this time. They are dominated by libertarian environmental business people. The NDP MP's from the Island are far more left wing than E. May or Paul for that matter so tell me why do you dismiss them from your ivy tower in some foreign country

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Right winger

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So Ken where did you get your high regard for Manley from. Are you sure you are not projecting onto him your ideal leadership qualities? Anyways please back up your high praise with some cites to articles that agree with your view or did you cut and paste his election material?

The Greens are not an eco-socialist alternative at this time. They are dominated by libertarian environmental business people. The NDP MP's from the Island is far more left wing than E. May or Paul for that matter so tell me why do you dismiss them from your ivy tower in some foreign country

1) I absolutely agree that the GPC under May is not an eco-socialist alternative, and I do not in any way admire or support May.  I've been critiquing the conservative direction she has kept the party in throughout her leadership for as long as I've been on the board.

2) Nothing I've posted here was meant in any way as an attack on any of the NDP MPs on Vancouver Island-I agree that those people are much better than May and much better than anyone in the fossilized NDP bureaucracy or its totally out-of-touch Executive Council.  Any NDP MP on the Island would be a far better federal leader than Mulcair or Singh(and yes, far better than "Jack").  I'm sorry for having made it sound like anything I was saying was an attack on them.

3) My opinions about Manly are based on his courage in standing up to Mulcair when Mulcair, Likudnik that he is, was refusing to do anything to intervene with the Israeli government to intervene when Manly's father was arrested by the IDF as they stopped the aid caravan by force, and by the fact that Manly's stand on this resulted in Mulcair blacklisting him from standing as an NDP candidate-for the 2015 campaign, but clearly the blacklist would have been imposed for pretty much the rest of Manly's life-and this leads me to the conclusion that, unlike May, Manly would be a leader who recognizes that the GPC can only move forward as a party of transformative change, which would lead him to be recognize the need for something like ecosocialism.

4) I referenced the GPC because there will almost certainly be a GPC leadership election process before there is another NDP leadership campaign.

5) If any of the NDP MPs from the Island were to enter the next NDP leadership contest, I'd be favorable to any of them being elected.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I wasn't dismissing any of the NDP MPs from the Island at all.  It was just that I was assuming that a change in the GPC leadership was likely to be the next major event in federal politics.  

 

Debater

Well, May did say earlier this year that this election would be her last as leader.  Whether she sticks to that, one never knows.

At least the Greens now have 2 other MPs other than May to choose from.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I think that the Greens would be self destructive to run with May as leader next time however she is a cult figure to her people and they seem to have unlimited patience and love for her. Manly was treated badly by the central party but Ottawa regularly gets thing wrong. I fell sorry for Paul but I still want to cry when I think of Bill Siksay.

robbie_dee

I would join the Green Party to support a Manly leadership run. I think Elizabeth May has made it pretty clear this would be her last election. However I suspect she would still like to orchestrate a handoff of the leadership to JWR, Independent or not. We will have to see if the GPC members stand for this.

Sean in Ottawa

It does not look like the NDP can be all that much worse than it is now. It is hanging on to party status but in a desperate situation in terms of future viability. Both the Liberals and the Conservatives can come back stronger and the Greens are not going away. I want a sustainability party -- social and environmental. Maybe the NDP has to hit rock bottom before a decision is made to build a party that has a better role than begging with no money and a balance of power that it will be scared to use and no reasonable hope of getting more than 10% of the seats in the House.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Please could you and the rest of the NDP supporters in Ontario get on that right away. We do our part every election and send very left wing MP's but somehow they are not joined by nearly the same proportion of MP's from Ontario. The NDP's problem is it cannot win Ontario. That is not a national problem it is a regional problem. I don't know what it will take to win seats in the Quebec City to Windsor corridor even though I have helped elect an NDP MP's in every election since I moved back to the West Coast in 1993.

The party abandoned Audrey and rejected Svend for leaders and then Jack disciplined and whipped the MP's we sent to Ottawa. So maybe we need to go to more regional based eco-socialist parties that can then work together on common goals while they fight to save their local environments.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I think that the Greens would be self destructive to run with May as leader next time however she is a cult figure to her people and they seem to have unlimited patience and love for her. Manly was treated badly by the central party but Ottawa regularly gets thing wrong. I fell sorry for Paul but I still want to cry when I think of Bill Siksay.

Agreed.  

And my OP was predicated, by its title, on May keeping her word and NOT fighting the next election as GPC leader.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

robbie_dee wrote:

I would join the Green Party to support a Manly leadership run. I think Elizabeth May has made it pretty clear this would be her last election. However I suspect she would still like to orchestrate a handoff of the leadership to JWR, Independent or not. We will have to see if the GPC members stand for this.

It's entirely plausible that May would do that.  JWR would be her model leader-an egotistical prima donna who would see the GPC was hers to run as her personal fiefdom.  As May herself never had any personal allegiance to the "10 Key values" of the Green tradition, she would naturally prefer to be replaced by someone who also had no allegiance to anyone or anything other than her own self-promotion.

JKR

I think under FPTP the NDP and Greens will have to merge sooner or later. Hopefully sooner. Maybe to avoid this we should support Trudeau's favorite electoral system, preferential voting?

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Please could you and the rest of the NDP supporters in Ontario get on that right away. We do our part every election and send very left wing MP's but somehow they are not joined by nearly the same proportion of MP's from Ontario. The NDP's problem is it cannot win Ontario. That is not a national problem it is a regional problem. I don't know what it will take to win seats in the Quebec City to Windsor corridor even though I have helped elect an NDP MP's in every election since I moved back to the West Coast in 1993.

The party abandoned Audrey and rejected Svend for leaders and then Jack disciplined and whipped the MP's we sent to Ottawa. So maybe we need to go to more regional based eco-socialist parties that can then work together on common goals while they fight to save their local environments.

We are not Borg. There is no collective mind here.

I have no more sway over the Ontarians who vote Liberal or Conservative than you do.

It sucks. I have never voted for a candidate that won in my entire life.

Still the party needs to find a way to change people's minds. I think being there all the time instead of silence and then trying to do it all in an election with half the budget or less of the other parties.

In a former life I ran a social issues publishing company. I learned to make noise without money. The NDP has to learn how to do that insead for blowing budgets doing what the other parties do without enough money to win at it.

The Tik Toks from Singh were great. He should do at least one a month on every issue.

Policywonk

Ken Burch wrote:

The NDP will be in an even deeper struggle than it is right now:

Manly gets it that a program for change must be tangible, must be something the voters see as relevant to their situations and their needs, that such a program can't connect with the voters if it is not unveiled until the last two weeks of an election

Unlike May, and perhaps unlike Singh, Manly gets it that the GPC's future, and the future of the left in Canada, lies in the party embracing class-conscious ecosocialism, in the vision of the Leap Manifesto-that there is no possibility of creating a green and egalitarian future within the existing economic system and within the current budget constraints.

Unlike either Singh or May, Manly gets it that transformative change at home is linked to the way Canada relates to the world, that it requires the adoption of an anti-oppression, and anti-imperialist approach to the rest of the world, as military intervention is both deeply damaging to the climate and to the ability of ordinary people around the world to create just, peaceful and prosperous societies for themselves to inhabit.

Manly understands that a party of change must be a party of inspiration and of vision, that personal charisma and the appearance of "respectability" are not, in and of themselves, of any real value in the question of choosing the leader of a party of change.

Whether Singh stays on as leader or eventually goes, the only chance the NDP will have of avoiding cataclysmic losses, losses even worse than those experienced Monday night-and quite frankly, it's an open question as to whether the NDP can go on if its seat count goes any lower than it did this time-the NDP needs to be aware of what the choice of Manly as the next GPC leader would mean, and to be prepared to make huge changes in policy, strategy and tactics if Manly is chosen.

 

 

 

It can and it has gone on with much lower seat counts (93 to 06). The difference is the Greens were not the threat they potentially are now. I don't know if Manly is interested, but it may be a case of there being not too many options (although there are a couple of provincial leaders in the Maritimes).

Policywonk

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So Ken where did you get your high regard for Manley from. Are you sure you are not projecting onto him your ideal leadership qualities? Anyways please back up your high praise with some cites to articles that agree with your view or did you cut and paste his election material?

The Greens are not an eco-socialist alternative at this time. They are dominated by libertarian environmental business people. The NDP MP's from the Island are far more left wing than E. May or Paul for that matter so tell me why do you dismiss them from your ivy tower in some foreign country

Manly is as left wing as any of the NDP MPs on the Island. 

Aristotleded24

Why are we having any discussion about changing leaders for the Greens or the NDP when it's not in any party's interests to go through a leadership campaign only for the Liberals to pull the rug and call an election before the new leader is ready?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Why are we having any discussion about changing leaders for the Greens or the NDP when it's not in any party's interests to go through a leadership campaign only for the Liberals to pull the rug and call an election before the new leader is ready?

Because May has said this year's election will be her last as leader.  

Debater

Chantal Hebert & Peter Mansbridge said on CBC Election Night that May really underperformed in this election.

Hebert pointed out how little May seemed to know about Quebec and how much momentum she lost, and Mansbridge pretty much said it was time for May to step down.

Aristotleded24

Ken Burch wrote:
Aristotleded24 wrote:

Why are we having any discussion about changing leaders for the Greens or the NDP when it's not in any party's interests to go through a leadership campaign only for the Liberals to pull the rug and call an election before the new leader is ready?

Because May has said this year's election will be her last as leader.

Politicians say a lot of things. That doesn't necessarily make them true.

Aristotleded24

Debater wrote:
Chantal Hebert & Peter Mansbridge said on CBC Election Night that May really underperformed in this election.

Hebert pointed out how little May seemed to know about Quebec and how much momentum she lost, and Mansbridge pretty much said it was time for May to step down.

I think May's big mistake was to fight for progressive votes on Vancouver Island with the NDP. It was very obvious that the NDP would fight back, especially in a region where people are afraid of Conservatives winning on a vote split. The better strategy would have been to go to the East Coast and fight there. The Greens have emerged in 2 provinces as the anti-establishment vote, there's provincial infrastructure in PEI and New Brunswick that the federal party could have relied upon, and no NDP to get in their way. Fredericton showed that, and Charlottetown has potential as well.

Debater

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Debater wrote:
Chantal Hebert & Peter Mansbridge said on CBC Election Night that May really underperformed in this election.

Hebert pointed out how little May seemed to know about Quebec and how much momentum she lost, and Mansbridge pretty much said it was time for May to step down.

I think May's big mistake was to fight for progressive votes on Vancouver Island with the NDP. It was very obvious that the NDP would fight back, especially in a region where people are afraid of Conservatives winning on a vote split. The better strategy would have been to go to the East Coast and fight there. The Greens have emerged in 2 provinces as the anti-establishment vote, there's provincial infrastructure in PEI and New Brunswick that the federal party could have relied upon, and no NDP to get in their way. Fredericton showed that, and Charlottetown has potential as well.

Yes, that's a good observation.  If you listen to May's election night speech, she sounded very bitter about the intense battle with the NDP on Vancouver Island.  She accused the NDP of playing dirty tricks on the Greens on Vancouver Island, and basically said she was glad the BQ knocked the NDP down to 4th.

Sean in Ottawa

Debater wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Debater wrote:
Chantal Hebert & Peter Mansbridge said on CBC Election Night that May really underperformed in this election.

Hebert pointed out how little May seemed to know about Quebec and how much momentum she lost, and Mansbridge pretty much said it was time for May to step down.

I think May's big mistake was to fight for progressive votes on Vancouver Island with the NDP. It was very obvious that the NDP would fight back, especially in a region where people are afraid of Conservatives winning on a vote split. The better strategy would have been to go to the East Coast and fight there. The Greens have emerged in 2 provinces as the anti-establishment vote, there's provincial infrastructure in PEI and New Brunswick that the federal party could have relied upon, and no NDP to get in their way. Fredericton showed that, and Charlottetown has potential as well.

Yes, that's a good observation.  If you listen to May's election night speech, she sounded very bitter about the intense battle with the NDP on Vancouver Island.  She accused the NDP of playing dirty tricks on the Greens on Vancouver Island, and basically said she was glad the BQ knocked the NDP down to 4th.

Frankly those bitter on both sides will have to go -- even where they are justified in feeling that way. In the present system (that is unlikely to change) both parties are not particularly viable when they beat the crap out of each other. Time to face that head on.

Perhaps the Greens and NDP might be more cooperative seeing that they cannot progress while fighting each other. In FPTP this is emerging as a fact impossible to dispute with any credibility.

NorthReport

Unfortunately FPTP is here to stay. And there is more likelyhood of the Greens joining the Liberals than the Greens joining the NDP, however neither scenario is in the works, because everyone wants their little, or large if Liberal, fiefdom. What this does show however is that you can sell shit if you package it properly.

JKR wrote:

I think under FPTP the NDP and Greens will have to merge sooner or later. Hopefully sooner. Maybe to avoid this we should support Trudeau's favorite electoral system, preferential voting?

Policywonk

NorthReport wrote:

Unfortunately FPTP is here to stay. And there is more likelyhood of the Greens joining the Liberals than the Greens joining the NDP, however neither scenario is in the works, because everyone wants their little, or large if Liberal, fiefdom. What this does show however is that you can sell shit if you package it properly.

JKR wrote:

I think under FPTP the NDP and Greens will have to merge sooner or later. Hopefully sooner. Maybe to avoid this we should support Trudeau's favorite electoral system, preferential voting?

Preferential voting for a representative legislature is potentially worse than FPTP. We will see what transpires in Quebec, and I will believe CAQ will bring in PR (as promised) when I see it. It's too bad they won a majority, as everyone but the Quebec Liberals are in favour and it could have been a condition of support. A minority in 2015 federally might have helped too, 

Aristotleded24

Knowing very little right now about Green politics, I think the best Green person to take over from May, of the elected MPs, is Jenica Atwin. Not only does that continue with the tradition of woman leaders, but it also continues on with the generational trend we have been seeing with younger people taking up progressive politics. It also allows the Greens to capitalize on their momentum on the east coast and pick off low-hanging fruit rather than to invest more heavily into Vancouver Island contests that often don't go as they had hoped.

Sean in Ottawa

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Knowing very little right now about Green politics, I think the best Green person to take over from May, of the elected MPs, is Jenica Atwin. Not only does that continue with the tradition of woman leaders, but it also continues on with the generational trend we have been seeing with younger people taking up progressive politics. It also allows the Greens to capitalize on their momentum on the east coast and pick off low-hanging fruit rather than to invest more heavily into Vancouver Island contests that often don't go as they had hoped.

The best person might be Jagmeet Singh with a committment to Green sustainability politics in a united sustainability party.

It does not matter who the leader of a Green only party it will continue to ensure that the total Labour-Green-Democratic Socialist vote produces an insignificant number of seats that can never really make a difference for anyone.

robbie_dee

The next Green leader does not have to be a current MP, as Elizabeth May would presumably also yield her relatively safe Saanich-Gulf Islands seat to a new leader who needed it. Whoever it is, I would like to see them aggressively challenge the NDP on the left.

Sean in Ottawa

robbie_dee wrote:
The next Green leader does not have to be a current MP, as Elizabeth May would presumably also yield her relatively safe Saanich-Gulf Islands seat to a new leader who needed it. Whoever it is, I would like to see them aggressively challenge the NDP on the left.

I would like to see them aggressively challenge the NDP to merge - if they are doing it from the left.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

robbie_dee wrote:
The next Green leader does not have to be a current MP, as Elizabeth May would presumably also yield her relatively safe Saanich-Gulf Islands seat to a new leader who needed it. Whoever it is, I would like to see them aggressively challenge the NDP on the left.

I would like to see them aggressively challenge the NDP to merge - if they are doing it from the left.

The activist volunteers on the ground on Vancouver Island, from both the Green's and NDP, do not want a merger, only surrender. As for May's constant whining about NDP dirty tricks she seems to have forgotten which party was cited by Elections Canada for its disinformation campaign, and the media never calls her on it. This kind of thing has left both sides incapable of trusting the other side in any merger.

https://vancouversun.com/news/politics/greens-admit-to-deliberately-misl...

R.E.Wood

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

robbie_dee wrote:
The next Green leader does not have to be a current MP, as Elizabeth May would presumably also yield her relatively safe Saanich-Gulf Islands seat to a new leader who needed it. Whoever it is, I would like to see them aggressively challenge the NDP on the left.

I would like to see them aggressively challenge the NDP to merge - if they are doing it from the left.

The activist volunteers on the ground on Vancouver Island, from both the Green's and NDP, do not want a merger, only surrender. As for May's constant whining about NDP dirty tricks she seems to have forgotten which party was cited by Elections Canada for its disinformation campaign, and the media never calls her on it. This kind of thing has left both sides incapable of trusting the other side in any merger.

https://vancouversun.com/news/politics/greens-admit-to-deliberately-misl...

And Nero fiddled while Rome burned...

It's this sort of endless boring idiotic partisanship between factions that should be allies which will be the death of us all. And then we'll deserve it. Seriously, just get over it and come together as one!!

nicky

Here is May’s election night speechhttps://www.macleans.ca/politics/transcript-elizabeth-mays-post-election-speech/

Petty. Carping. Revelling in the NDP losing seats and celebrating that the Bloc has more seats than the NDP.

May’s goal has always been to supplant the NDP, not to defeat Liberals or Conservatives.

there is no prospect of an NDP - Green merger with her around.

JeffWells

I would never vote Green while May is leader. I would vote Green in a heartbeat if Manley were leader.

That's just me, but I bet there's more.

KarlL

NorthReport wrote:

Unfortunately FPTP is here to stay. And there is more likelyhood of the Greens joining the Liberals than the Greens joining the NDP, however neither scenario is in the works, because everyone wants their little, or large if Liberal, fiefdom. What this does show however is that you can sell shit if you package it properly.

Has it ever struck you that this isn't a case of six million addle-brained voters who have been duped by the Liberals?  And that maybe, discarding those who voted strategically, or on low-information, or on aesthetic or other extraneous grounds, the bulk of these voters looked at what was on offer and decided to vote for the underlying offering that they preferred?

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Quote:
I would never vote Green while May is leader. I would vote Green in a heartbeat if Manley were leader.

I wouldn't vote Greenie even then.    They're a party of white yuppies/hipsters.

A party that in 2019 runs a slate of candidates that are 88% white?   Even LESS diverse than the Mad Max party?

Forget it.     The NDP has made too much progress to go backwards.

Sean in Ottawa

radiorahim wrote:

Quote:
I would never vote Green while May is leader. I would vote Green in a heartbeat if Manley were leader.

I wouldn't vote Greenie even then.    They're a party of white yuppies/hipsters.

A party that in 2019 runs a slate of candidates that are 88% white?   Even LESS diverse than the Mad Max party?

Forget it.     The NDP has made too much progress to go backwards.

The Mad Max party is not diverse. They did make a show of running candidates of colour in no-hope ridings as tokens to make that point. Do not think those people figure in their policies or would in any power they would get...

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Quote:
Chantal Hebert & Peter Mansbridge said on CBC Election Night that May really underperformed in this election.

I would hope that we would be at the point where no one cares what Peter Mansbridge has to say about anything at all.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

radiorahim wrote:

Quote:
Chantal Hebert & Peter Mansbridge said on CBC Election Night that May really underperformed in this election.

I would hope that we would be at the point where no one cares what Peter Mansbridge has to say about anything at all.

Amen.

JeffWells

radiorahim wrote:

Quote:
I would never vote Green while May is leader. I would vote Green in a heartbeat if Manley were leader.

I wouldn't vote Greenie even then.    They're a party of white yuppies/hipsters.

A party that in 2019 runs a slate of candidates that are 88% white?   Even LESS diverse than the Mad Max party?

Forget it.     The NDP has made too much progress to go backwards.

I'm presuming a Manley-led Green Party would substantially differ from the May-led party. I expect it would be both more left and more green, and show more policy coherence and courage. In which case it would have my support.

FWIW I've always voted NDP.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

If the Green's get a left wing leader and it ditches its libertarian ideal that party discipline is an evil that any MP should not have to endure then I would think far better of them. However I live in Gord Johns riding so why would I vote for anyone else given the environment and reconciliation the main issues I gauge candidates by.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

R.E.Wood wrote:

And Nero fiddled while Rome burned...

It's this sort of endless boring idiotic partisanship between factions that should be allies which will be the death of us all. And then we'll deserve it. Seriously, just get over it and come together as one!!

So R.E. Wood what riding do you live in and have you ever spent close to two months where most of your waking hours are spent living and breathing an election campaign? May has been attack mode against the NDP since before she became the Green leader. She is toxic to any idea of people inside the two parties getting together to form a new party. I don't think a merger is possible but maybe if both the parties imploded something could arise from the ashes that was not dominated by either the NDP's resource extraction wing or Green's eco-capitalist employers wing.

Mighty Middle

Elizabeth May says she won't be leading the Greens into the next election

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/green-party-priorities-letter-trudeau-1...

Sean in Ottawa

Michael Moriarity wrote:

radiorahim wrote:

Quote:
Chantal Hebert & Peter Mansbridge said on CBC Election Night that May really underperformed in this election.

I would hope that we would be at the point where no one cares what Peter Mansbridge has to say about anything at all.

Amen.

wait, wait -- I thought we were there already. Really?

Sean in Ottawa

JeffWells wrote:

radiorahim wrote:

Quote:
I would never vote Green while May is leader. I would vote Green in a heartbeat if Manley were leader.

I wouldn't vote Greenie even then.    They're a party of white yuppies/hipsters.

A party that in 2019 runs a slate of candidates that are 88% white?   Even LESS diverse than the Mad Max party?

Forget it.     The NDP has made too much progress to go backwards.

I'm presuming a Manley-led Green Party would substantially differ from the May-led party. I expect it would be both more left and more green, and show more policy coherence and courage. In which case it would have my support.

FWIW I've always voted NDP.

If it is all those things why not merge and make the NDP do what is already in its mandate? At that point there would be no difference between the parties in purpose or direction only a question of leadership and loyalty to founding purpose.

No?

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

If the Green's get a left wing leader and it ditches its libertarian ideal that party discipline is an evil that any MP should not have to endure then I would think far better of them. However I live in Gord Johns riding so why would I vote for anyone else given the environment and reconciliation the main issues I gauge candidates by.

I know, I know as Duceppe said if my mother had wheels she would ahve been a tractor.

But -

If the Greens did all this why not have a single party get the best of the talent and merge?

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

R.E.Wood wrote:

And Nero fiddled while Rome burned...

It's this sort of endless boring idiotic partisanship between factions that should be allies which will be the death of us all. And then we'll deserve it. Seriously, just get over it and come together as one!!

So R.E. Wood what riding do you live in and have you ever spent close to two months where most of your waking hours are spent living and breathing an election campaign? May has been attack mode against the NDP since before she became the Green leader. She is toxic to any idea of people inside the two parties getting together to form a new party. I don't think a merger is possible but maybe if both the parties imploded something could arise from the ashes that was not dominated by either the NDP's resource extraction wing or Green's eco-capitalist employers wing.

I think I hear you saying that the greens are the reason a merger is not possible in your view. I also have heard you and many others say that the Greens are defined completely by E. May. If all this were true then without her what woudl be the impediment?

I know that there is a lot of ill-will but if the the Greens ditched the Libertarian steak and E. May were no longer there and they were a left led party -- what exactly would be impossible to overcome? 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I know that there is a lot of ill-will but if the the Greens ditched the Libertarian steak and E. May were no longer there and they were a left led party -- what exactly would be impossible to overcome? 

There would be no problem. However it is important to understand who the movers and shakers in the Green party on VI are. They hate the NDP with a passion and many of them are literally green capitalists who exploit their workers like their last name was Walton and some of the ones I know personally vote Green because they hate unions even though they love the environment. The Green candidate in the riding next door said he had conservative values and environmentalism was part of that old school tory world view. I like to dream and tender pig wings seems as likely to come true as a Green NDP merger. The only possible way forward would be for some of the elected MP's to ditch their parties and found a totally new one because neither side would ever trust each other party apparatus.

 

Sean in Ottawa

I realize that VI is where the Greens are most successful and visible. I do not think they would be able to dominate a leadership. I think there are real opportunities coming up and some of these conservatives may go.

Fact is you cannot make progress on climate mitigation from the right and increasingly this is obvious.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I realize that VI is where the Greens are most successful and visible. I do not think they would be able to dominate a leadership. I think there are real opportunities coming up and some of these conservatives may go.

Fact is you cannot make progress on climate mitigation from the right and increasingly this is obvious.

Having spent decades trying unsucessfully to move the central NDP left, while electing left wing MP's in my riding, I have no personal energy to expend trying to make the same thing happen to another minor party.

You seem to have connections to PEI so are the PEI Greens left wing or conservationists worried about the environment? I find this article about Jenica Atwin hopeful.

Atwin, a mother of two, was born and raised in the Fredericton area, and for the last decade has worked for a local First Nation education organization focused on helping kids through high school. 

Along with being Fredericton’s first Green, she is also its first female MP. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/green-mp-history-new-brunswick_ca_5d...

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I realize that VI is where the Greens are most successful and visible. I do not think they would be able to dominate a leadership. I think there are real opportunities coming up and some of these conservatives may go.

Fact is you cannot make progress on climate mitigation from the right and increasingly this is obvious.

Having spent decades trying unsucessfully to move the central NDP left, while electing left wing MP's in my riding, I have no personal energy to expend trying to make the same thing happen to another minor party.

You seem to have connections to PEI so are the PEI Greens left wing or conservationists worried about the environment? I find this article about Jenica Atwin hopeful.

Atwin, a mother of two, was born and raised in the Fredericton area, and for the last decade has worked for a local First Nation education organization focused on helping kids through high school. 

Along with being Fredericton’s first Green, she is also its first female MP. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/green-mp-history-new-brunswick_ca_5d...

I have a close friend from PEI and the current Green leader was my dentist before he moved to PEI and ran for the Green Party there. I have visited as an outsider.

I cannot speak as an Islander although I have a personal afinity for the Atlantic Provinces (Particularly Newfoundland as well)... I have a strong tendency for what you might call the underdog and I have a nerve centre where justice is concerned. This is where I was speaking from when talking about PEI.

The PEI Green movement there I understand is informed by a very visible and precarious environment with loss of land with every major storm. I am not sure that greens are very ideological in general there as I think there motivation comes from the vanishing landscape -- others can speak to that perhaps. I find PEI is not overly partisan even though they are very political. Politics is personal there.

I can say is that the Green leader Peter Bevan Baker is the real deal and he was down the line on the same page as the NDP when I knew him. 

I was working for the NDP candidate in Leeds Grenville and we had a very strange debate in 1997. The Green candidate Peter) declined to debate anything the New Democrat said and endorse her entire speech and she did the same with him. The Liberal was Joe Jordan. He asked the Greens to inform him on environmental policy upon his election and he kept his word personally. He said many times that he had a virtually complete conversion in that campaign. He was defeated in the next election once the right were no longer divided but he did take steps to raise the profile of the environment and ecology within the Liberal government.

I had many many conversations with Peter and saw that his position was really the same as mine. Another person who also worked with the Greens there is Mike Nickerson who is no longer with the Green Party. Look up his book Life, Money and Illusion. the book could have been written by a New Democrat. I did the editing and was heavily invovled. There were no ideological differences between us.  I have known Mike since 1992. His positions are not distinguishable in ideology from NDP positions except for an ecological priority. These are poeple who I would be very comfortable being in the same political space with.

JeffWells

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

If it is all those things why not merge and make the NDP do what is already in its mandate? At that point there would be no difference between the parties in purpose or direction only a question of leadership and loyalty to founding purpose.

No?

To that I'd say Hell yes. It's the smart move, and probably inevitable eventually anyway.

Moving the Greens left after May isn't hard to conceive at all, either under Manley or someone else. That's where the grassroots are, and it seems essentially May who's held it back. The biggest block to a merger would be the centrist functionaries who rule the NDP. Especially now, after a crushing setback rather than a wipeout, and losing half the party's seats again is being spun as a great triumph. I'm sure they'd love to fold the Greens into the NDP, but building a truly new Left-Green party would cost them everything.

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