http://canadian-firebrand.blogspot.com/2009/01/liberal-mps-gagged-on-gaza.html
Star I've talked to JDL people in the past and they say things about Arabs and Palestinians that make the claims in that video look like kindergarten. Would you make a generalization about all Jews based on what a few members of the JDL terrorist group say?
No, but I sure as hell wouldn't attend events of theirs, welcome them to anything I was involved with and if i ever did encounter them yelling their vitriol and hate, I'd be the first person to ask them to stop and explain that they were discrediting everyone else present.
Jewish group? You mean the terrorist group called the JDL (the FBI describes them as such). Why do you assume that hostility shown towards a terrorist quasi-fascist group called the JDL would be hostility towards Jews in general? There were a number of Jews in the rally (more, in fact, than were standing with the JDL) most of us were very identifiable and none of us were subjected to any threats or nasty gestures except from your terrorist friends in the JDL perhaps.
Did you attend the counterrally because if you did then you sure as hell attended an event of theirs. The video, btw, is taken from the vantage point of the JDL's counterdemo and is a JDL video.
I'll add that my point in posting a few videos and pics of radical anti-semites at these events isn't to paint everyone with a broad brush. Obviously, opposition to Israel's actions are not inherently anti-Semitic.
But people ahve completely dismissed the idea that there's ANYTHING whatsoever or anyone whatsoever in this movement driven by anti-semitism and that's completely naive and disingenuous. Sometimes, opposition to Israel IS used as a transparent cloack to mask real hatred of Jews.
Exhibit A:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_eu/eu_europe_gaza_jews_attacked
"PARIS – Government officials and Jewish leaders are concerned the conflict in Gaza may spill over into violence in Europe, with attacks reported against Jews and synagogues in France, Sweden and Britain.
Assailants rammed a burning car into the gates of a synagogue in Toulouse, in southwest France, Monday night.
A Jewish congregation in Helsingborg, in southern Sweden, was attacked Monday night by someone who "broke a window and threw in something that was burning," said police spokesman Leif Nilsson. And on Sunday slogans, including "murderers ... You broke the cease-fire," were daubed on Israel's Embassy in Stockholm.
In Denmark, a 27-year-old Dane born in Lebanon to Palestinian parents is alleged to have injured two young Israelis last week in a shooting police suspect could be linked to the Gaza crisis. Belgium ordered police in Antwerp and Brussels to be on increased state of alert" Tuesday after recent pro-Palestinian protests ended in violence and arrests."
There were a number of Jews in the rally (more, in fact, than were standing with the JDL) most of us were very identifiable and none of us were subjected to any threats or nasty gestures except from your terrorist friends in the JDL perhaps.
Let me ask you an honest question and i will trust the sincerity of your response. Would you feel comofrtable wearing a yarmulke to that rally in Toronto?
To answer your question, no, I did not attend the counter-rally as
a)I haven't lived in Toronto in some time
b)I don't support Israel's actions
c) I wouldn't want to attend an even organzied by the JDL if that is, indeed, who organized the event.
Any large rally on any issue will attract some extremist loons but you can't paint an entire rally based on the fringe, that's just propaganda. Having a rally on the war of Lebanon where one guy unfurls a Hezbollah flag does not make it a "Hezbollah rally". A handful of anti-semites in a crowd of 10,000 does not make it an anti-Semitic rally.
The CJC is organizing a pro-Israel rally on Thursday. I'll bet you $1000 that if I went to the rally with a video camera and interview enough people I'd find quite a number who will call the Palestinians animals, imply they are not human beings, deny they even exist (a common JDL theme) as well as a number who would say that every single Palestinian in Israel or the occupied territories should be deported to Jordan and other countries. I might even find one or two who say the IDF should kill every single person in Gaza. I'd also find a number who call the Palestinians Nazis and imply that if Gaza isn't crushed there'll be another Holocaust.
So what would that prove?
Let me ask you an honest question and i will trust the sincerity of your response. Would you feel comofrtable wearing a yarmulke to that rally in Toronto?
Throughout the entire length of the rally I was carrying a lage banner that said "Jews in solidarity with Gaza" which I think quite clearly identified me as Jewish so yes, if wearing yarmulkes was my thing then I would feel comfortable.
I guess I could go with a yarmulke and wearing a prayer shawl etc but since I'm not religious it would be more than a bit insincere.
As for Nazi analogies and references to the Holocaust extremists on both sides are engaging in this. For example, here's a recent email from Zionist propagandist Ami Iseroff:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37523188@N00/215818828/
Your comparison is valid, however we both know the consequences won't be similar; the Hague is for prosecuting Serbs.
Has SSC apologized yet for - or simply corrected - his fabrication whereby he added the word "enough" to the hatemongering interviewer's question? If not, AKA M, I would question why you're continuing to patiently explain things to him, as if he's just some misguided well-intentioned soul who doesn't have all the facts about some rally? His consistent screed here is an attempt to connect anti-Israel activism with anti-Semitism. That kind of hatemongering doesn't fall within the category of innocent ignorance.
Star I've talked to JDL people in the past and they say things about Arabs and Palestinians that make the claims in that video look like kindergarten. Would you make a generalization about all Jews based on what a few members of the JDL terrorist group say?
No, but I sure as hell wouldn't attend events of theirs, welcome them to anything I was involved with and if i ever did encounter them yelling their vitriol and hate, I'd be the first person to ask them to stop and explain that they were discrediting everyone else present.
And yet you accept the editing hatchet job by a JDL video maker without question.
I DO apologize for getting teh quote wrong. I don't think it sufficeintly changed the meaning to really matter but to teh extent that I wasn't careful enough in capturing it fully, that was my error.
I'm not "trying to connect anti-Israel activism with anti-Semitism." YOU, however, seem very intent on trying to sever them from one another. The truth is likely somewhere between your appraoch and the one that you falsely attribute to me. Of course not everyone (let alone msot) of the people attending anti-Israeli rallies are anti-Semitic. Of course not all (let alone most) criticism of israel is motivated by anti-Semitism. But there IS enough of that is and there are enough legitimate anti-Semites that it risks poisoning the entire movement.
I'm not in favourt of israel's actions. I sympathize with teh people in gaza. I'm also a Jew, the grandson of a two Holocaust survivors, an academic and someone with family currently living in Israel. So everytime I see people at rallies calling Jews "products of pigs", or hear diciulous Nazi analogies, or hear about Israeli athletes being pelted with bottles by an angry mob or about synogogues in europe being burned, or when people defend firing rockets at israeli daycares as "resistance" or when unions attack academic freedom by applying ridiculous double standards and singling out ONE country in a world sadly filled to the brim with human rights abusers, yes, I sometimes DO feel forced to question the motivations of many of the people attacking Israel and feel less inclined to be a part of any movement that attracts such lunacy and hatred.
I don't know that teh JDL made the video but if they did, so what? Are you suggesting that it was doctored? Are you suggesting the events depicted did not actually occur? Was the person yelling that Jews were "the products of pigs" an actor hired to portray an anti-Semite? When the person violently attacked the cameraman, was that staged somehow?
As a constituent of Etobicoke-Lakeshore, I called Iggy's office this morning to demand what his position is, not as leader of the Liberal party but as MP of this district. Got answering machine, left a message with telephone # and email. I will let you guys know if anyone gets back to me.
On the issue of protests, I have been to the two that have been organized here so far. I did hear one young guy say "f**k the Jews" but this was after he was provoked by some JDL punk screaming "terrorists" at us. Almost all of the protesters were screaming "free palestine, occupation is a crime" and so on. As a Muslim, I know JDL hates me for who I am but I hate them for what they think about me. Bigotry in all of its forms is nasty and should never be tolerated.
I'll comment on the opening point: I don't think Ignatief can politically do anything presently regardless of whatever he might otherwise be inclined or not to do.
Remember Rae left the NDP of policy respecting Palestine and Israel. Ignatief simply cannot afford an internal war with Rae on a position Rae feels strongly enough to change parties over. The Liberals are in the need of unity. In the grand scheme of things the Liberals are trying to take back power and this is not going to do anythign but cause them harm.
Everyone who gets into this debate gets pummelled anyway. Each side presents the situation as more simple than it is and in many respects both sides are incredibly weak in their positions leaving tons of ammunition for their opposition.
I am very upset for the people of Gaza who are being screwed over by practically everyone but that unfortunately includes their own leadership. It does not negate any argument about the Israeli actions to say that the rocketfire is counter-productive and part of why they are unable to build enough global support in the right places to get a long term solution on reasonable grounds. Without the rocketfire their position could be fought for internationally and in countries like ours. Disapproval of Israeli action is not nearly as much of a problem even when it occurs because the Israelis have the strength in the area. It is the Palestinians who need world support and intervention and they will never get it until they have cleaner hands no matter how brutal, unreasonable and aggressive Israel is. As well, political opposition in Israel for this aggression can never gain any significant support as long as those rockets fire. This is not about right and wrong- it is about political realities and the Israeli government, as inept as it can be at times, clearly has a huge advantage over the Palestinians as well. They can survive the world being confused and conflicted and they can survive disapproval as long as it does not go much beyond that and as long as they are attacked it won't. The Palestinians unfortunately are not surviving period. They are being cut down and killed when they are not being starved. Hamas is using the rockets to ensure its own survival as it depends entirely on the conflict. It knows that as long as the rocketsprovide Israel cover for brutality, nothing will change and perversely they will retain the support of their people that they do not deserve. Unfortunately the parallel runs in reverse. The actions of Israel are also preventing the Palestinians from taking any other course and the two are locked into a struggle where one side, the Palestinians are paying disporportionately and inhumanely.
I am sure there will be people who will take issue with what I have said but I can say that the longest lasting conflicts are the ones with both sides being at fault. When one side is reasonable the other eventually will be pressured to moderate.
But I am not a political figure, I am not a person who must keep a party together and balance other issues that may be more important (if Ignatief wanted to do anythign for the Palestinians he has to do it from government not opposition so going out on a limb now if it costs in any way the chance to unify the party is counterproductive) .
We should also be pressing the PM publicly to back up a two state solution with assistance to Palestine where possible and that includes public statements that Israel may have the right to defend itself but this is not defence this is murder.
Unlike Ignatief who is in a difficult position with little ability to achieve anything by his statementsthe PM is in no such position and needs to be clear about where defence turns into aggression.
No anti-Semitism HERE either.
I'm sure the woman who yelled at the Jews to "Go back to the oven" was merely telling them that on such a chilly day, they'd be happier at home cooking up a hot meal.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html
"But as the protest continued and crowds grew, one woman in a hijab began to shout curses and slurs that shocked Jewish activists in the city, which has a sizable Jewish population.
"Go back to the oven," she shouted, calling for the counter-protesters to die in the manner that the Nazis used to exterminate Jews during the Holocaust.
"You need a big oven, that's what you need," she yelled.
Millions of Jews were gassed and burned in crematoria throughout Europe during Adolf Hitler's rule of Germany. The protest organizers, asked to comment on the woman's overt call for Jewish extermination, said she was "insensitive" but refused to condemn her statement.
Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists."
Yes, words, are very much more important than actions. I can see the confusion, whereby, people's words should cause and indeed justify further bombings and mass destruction of children's lives and aparthied actions against ALL Palestinians!
For fuck's sake SCC, you think this yelling in a state of outrage and horror means shit?
Heads up, it doesn't.
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
ACK. SSC! Fix your post # 54 and get rid of this horrible sidescroll! In the new babble, everything is better, especially the sidescroll!
For fuck's sake SCC, you think this yelling in a state of outrage and horror means shit?
Heads up, it doesn't.
Glorifying the murder of 6 million people and calling for genocide now "means nothing"?
Done!
Stop putting words in my mouth! And indeed in the Muslim woman's mouth!
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"
Stop putting words in my mouth! And indeed in the Muslim woman's mouth!
What words am I putting in the Muslim woman's mouth? She screamed "Go back to the oven." I said she was advocating genocide. Can you give me a PLAUSIBLE (let alone PROBABLE) rationale for her words that do not amount to the plainly evident fact taht she is an anti-Semite who advocated genocide?
If your idea is that one should not participate in social functions where there is overt racism mad by some persons, then you had better high tail it to the mountains, shave your head and find a mantra that you like, because everywhere you go there are persons who think, feel and indeed say racist things. This happens at weddings, dinner parties, sporting events, demonstrations etc. etc.
Your position is to say that one should not attend Toronto Maple Leaf Hockey games (a team which curiously has never had a person of colour on it, interestingly enough) because some of the fans say nasty things about Jarome Iginla when he shows up to play.
Does the blathering of one or two rednecks mean that Maple Leaf Hockey games are intended to spread Anti-African-American racism?
You have been told repeatedly that the expressions that you are seeing are by and large the exception at these kind of events, and frankly that has been my experience of them as well.
Our position, is that we can not abandon the social terrain to the ignorant, and that it is our duty to be present and join with those non-racist persons from all societies and cultures, in all circumstances, in order undermine racist ignorance and jointly educate and inform and drown out those negative voices. So far there has been great work done in the movement against Israeli Apartheid that has unified many like minded people opposed to racism and prejudice, joining together non-racist Jews, Muslims, Palestinian and Israelis.
Your position is not really a position. It is pedantry based on selectively choosing evidence that justifies your lack social responsibility.
Star Spangled Canadian, you are taking extreemist examples of, in questionable context, and using them to discredit anti Israeli demonstrations as a whole, then state you're not, then do it some more, then making sure you periodically post a pious disclaimer about how you oppose the actions of the Israeli gov't, which frankly I'm coming to doubt.
This is trolling of a particularly passive aggressive nature, and it's disruptive to the thread. Cut it out, or you'll be gone.
This is a tagline. It has nothing to do with the comments posted above. Just a tagline...really. Please disregard.
I disagree, Oldgoat. I don't believe SSC is trolling and your threat for him to be gone is heavy-handed. Without SSC in this discussion, this "debate" would be a monologue.
I suppose I need to state for the record, that I oppose the Israeli invasion of the Gaza. It's the new creed.
No the discussion would focus on the massacre that is going in the Gaza Strip, not the petulant outburst of one or two prejudiced persons at demonstrations in the west. This is ridiculous sidetracking, and smearing of the only movement that is seriously making efforts to bring together Arabs, Israelis, Jews and Muslims under a common banner.
It is to say, all discussion, needs to have a counterpoint to be productive, no matter how trivial the objection, just because.
No anti-Semitism HERE either.
I'm sure the woman who yelled at the Jews to "Go back to the oven" was merely telling them that on such a chilly day, they'd be happier at home cooking up a hot meal.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html
"But as the protest continued and crowds grew, one woman in a hijab began to shout curses and slurs that shocked Jewish activists in the city, which has a sizable Jewish population.
"Go back to the oven," she shouted, calling for the counter-protesters to die in the manner that the Nazis used to exterminate Jews during the Holocaust.
"You need a big oven, that's what you need," she yelled.
Millions of Jews were gassed and burned in crematoria throughout Europe during Adolf Hitler's rule of Germany. The protest organizers, asked to comment on the woman's overt call for Jewish extermination, said she was "insensitive" but refused to condemn her statement.
Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists."
There is raging hatred on both sides and matched by plenty of vile murderous words on both sides.
But your attempt to make the ongoing ethnic slaughter by Israel about another genocidal slaughter more than half a century ago is Standing Operating Procedure for those wishing to hide the ongoing ethnic clensing by the 4rth most powerful military in the world against an occupied and subjegated people.
The ugly reality of antisemitism does not make the words by Lopez untrue.
Yet Fox's dishonest handling of the story, of course, reinforces the standard: "criticim of Israel's actions"="antisemitism" meme.
Fox uses the word "But" to deny Lopez's words by equating his statements as the same as the woman's before him and by implying that he is calling the counterprotestors "terrorists" --a word not in quotes in the story so he obviouly didn't use it in that context (if at all). The words in quotes "barbaric, racist" are clearly extracted from his comment on Zionsm, not on the protestors themselves:
"Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists.
"Zionism in general is a barbaric, racist movement that really is the cause of the situation in the entire Middle East," Lopez said."
-----
But if unpleasant words mean more to you than the actual slaughter, you might give more credence to those spoken in calm calculation rather than in an enraged standoff of protestors. Glenn Grenwald has some wise comments on that subject:
"Published on Sunday, January 4, 2009 by Salon.com
Orwell, Blinding Tribalism, Selective Terrorism, and Israel/Gaza
by Glenn Greenwald
....
There are few concepts more elastic and subject to exploitation than "Terrorism," the all-purpose justifying and fear-mongering term. But if it means anything, it means exactly the mindset which Goldfarb is expressing: slaughtering innocent civilians in order to "send a message," to "deter" political actors by making them fear that continuing on the same course will result in the deaths of civilians and -- best of all, from the Terrorist's perspective -- even their own children and other family members.
To the Terrorist, by definition, that innocent civilians and even children are killed isn't a regrettable cost of taking military action. It's not a cost at all. It's a benefit. It has strategic value. Goldfarb explicitly says this: "to wipe out a man's entire family, it's hard to imagine that doesn't give his colleagues at least a moment's pause."
That, of course, is the very same logic that leads Hamas to send suicide bombers to slaughter Israeli teenagers in pizza parlors and on buses and to shoot rockets into their homes. It's the logic that leads Al Qaeda to fly civilian-filled airplanes into civilian-filled office buildings. And it's the logic that leads infinitely weak and deranged people like Goldfarb and Peretz to find value in the killing of innocent Palestinians, including -- one might say, at least in Goldfarb's case: especially -- children....."
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/04
No the discussion would focus on the massacre that is going in the Gaza Strip, not the petulant outburst of one or two prejudiced persons at demonstrations in the west. This is ridiculous sidetracking, and smearing of the only movement that is seriously making efforts to bring together Arabs, Israelis, Jews and Muslims under a common banner.
It is to say, all discussion, needs to have a counterpoint to be productive, no matter how trivial the objection, just because.
The bigger problem for activists of any cause is that outbursts such as the Florida protest "oven" comment, especially if it gets on camera as this one did, is the one that gets on the news and YouTube, as it is now. For the silent majority out there, it contributes to the discrediting of the cause. The same goes for a conservative rally, where one or two yahoos may say something racist.
I also seem to recall an earlier Babble post in which a YouTube link was posted containing an Israeli soldier calling Palestinians "animals", and the poster said "Israelis", to mean in general, were calling Palestinians animals. Was that not an unjustified generalization? Was SSC making a generalization about the Toronto or Florida protests?
I would hold a soldier in uniform on duty (or off for that matter) to a higher standard than a random person at a protest, but the problem is that focussing on such incidents can be used as a red herring to undermine legitimate discussion. That's why I'm intervening here.
This is a tagline. It has nothing to do with the comments posted above. Just a tagline...really. Please disregard.
That wasn't an intervention it was a threat. Sort of like stop shooting rockets at us or we'll invade.
What words am I putting in the Muslim woman's mouth? She screamed "Go back to the oven." I said she was advocating genocide.
Doesn't matter what the subject. There is a fool in every crowd, every demonstration, just like their is a fool in every political party that says something completely stupid. It is the main reason that many CPC MPs are muzzled, especially during the election. The media will jump on the stupid statements.
Remember Steven Harper calling the Prime Minister a supporter of child pornography....
Absolutely stupid and in the heat of an election campaign. What makes something like this more spectacular is that Mr Harpers intent was to lead the country and because of his foolish actions he failed, and hid in his trailer. It is a lesson he learned, that in the last week, before you screw up, go hide in the trailer. It worked better the 2nd time.
This women.... who if reported accurately and no one seems to dispute the accuracy of the report, made a horrific statement. I would never condone someone who talks about the actions of NAZI Germany as a solution to the palestinian crises. "Go back to the Ovens" is a sickening disgraceful statement and someone should have put her in her place for saying something so unacceptable. Statements like that feed the fire.
Indeed their is a sick fool in every crowd, and this time it happened to be a woman.
Her statements are a solution to nothing.
I am SCC. You people are refering to Star Spangled.
I never made any of those statements attributed to me.
Someone else made those statements about those demos.
This to me illustrates part of the problem in discussions about the Middle East. People do not read, then in a fit of irrational peak attribute things to people who did not say them.
Even the moderator, for effing sake, said SCC (i.e me) said this or that.
I haven't even made a a single post in this thread until this one here.
Sheesh.
These debates remind me of the spoof movie Spinal Tap - you know the scene where one of the band members shows the filmmaker the speakers whose volume control does not go 0-to-10 but is cranked up to "11" (like extra extra extra loud).
The Middle East debate is dominated by people permanently at level 11. And this means 95% of everyone I know will not touch this one with a 10-foot pole. And now, after having seen how truly dumb this can fall, I won't touch it with an 11-foot pole.
Thank you.
I believe "SCC" should have read "SSC" ie. Star Spangled Canadian. I apologize for repeating the acroym mistake.
[
This women.... who if reported accurately and no one seems to dispute the accuracy of the report
It's on youtube, just type "Israel "protest" "ovens" or "Muslim hatred of Jews" in the search area. (I'm not good at posting the HTMLs). The protester also suggests that the counter-proteters "steal someone else's land."
Oh Crap! I meant to say SSC. My sincerest apologies. I'll go right back and fix it, using his real name.
Golly, I generally only make about one mistake a year, and I've used it up already.
SCC, to avoid further confusion, I'm getting into your account and changing your name to Larry.
This is a tagline. It has nothing to do with the comments posted above. Just a tagline...really. Please disregard.
Star Spangled Canadian, you are taking extreemist examples of, in questionable context, and using them to discredit anti Israeli demonstrations as a whole, then state you're not, then do it some more, then making sure you periodically post a pious disclaimer about how you oppose the actions of the Israeli gov't, which frankly I'm coming to doubt.
This is trolling of a particularly passive aggressive nature, and it's disruptive to the thread. Cut it out, or you'll be gone.
The fact is, in a context where the coroporate-owned media is overwhelmingly hostile to your message the lack of discipline at Palestinian Solidarity rallies is important.
I think we have to have zero tolerance for expressions of hatred or racism at our events or we will end up being marginalized. Some jackass who writes "Kill All Juice" on a sign should be told to leave the rally. Period.
The whole goal of US strategy is to marginalize the Arab world. To turn them into an inhuman other that average Americans won't care about and, frankly, I don't think we should be tolerant of one or two jackasses (claiming to be allies) tries to make that job easier for our enemies.
All this noted, it's a bit of a non-sequitir in a Canadian politics thread since nothing like that has happened at any Canadian rally.
I was very careful with what I said when I posted the Youtube video of the Israeli soldier calling Palestinians animals. I said "Israelis" not "the Israelis." If more than one Israeli is guilty of believing Palestinians are animals then what I said is not a "generalization."
Hmm . . . can I find one more reference to an Israeli calling Palestinians animals?
Oh, here's one: "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,'" New Statesmen, June 25, 1982.
Here's what this Ignatieff Liberal says about the bombing of a UN school:
One problem for this Liberal scumbucket? There were no militants in the school.
Oh, here's one: "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,'" New Statesmen, June 25, 1982.
Not sure that this quote is for real. There have been some false ones floated on the internet. Can you find a link to the original article, or a good annotated reference to it.
But yeah, there are plenty of those. Sharon's minister of tourism (this is not a jok, btw) compared Palestinians to lice, and called them a cancer:
This is not just some private citizen going off the rails, but a representative of the Israeli state.
No anti-Semitism HERE either.
I'm sure the woman who yelled at the Jews to "Go back to the oven" was merely telling them that on such a chilly day, they'd be happier at home cooking up a hot meal.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html
"But as the protest continued and crowds grew, one woman in a hijab began to shout curses and slurs that shocked Jewish activists in the city, which has a sizable Jewish population.
"Go back to the oven," she shouted, calling for the counter-protesters to die in the manner that the Nazis used to exterminate Jews during the Holocaust.
"You need a big oven, that's what you need," she yelled.
Millions of Jews were gassed and burned in crematoria throughout Europe during Adolf Hitler's rule of Germany. The protest organizers, asked to comment on the woman's overt call for Jewish extermination, said she was "insensitive" but refused to condemn her statement.
Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists."
"She does not represent the opinions of the vast majority of people who were there," said Emmanuel Lopez, who helped plan the event, one of many sponsored nationwide on Dec. 30 by the ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism ) Coalition.
Funny how you left out this statement from your link. It's right between the two you quoted without properly identifying that something was left out.
I conclude you are part of the Israeli propaganda machine, currently invading the net, no doubt funded by the US.
Here's what this Ignatieff Liberal says about the bombing of a UN school:
One problem for this Liberal scumbucket? There were no militants in the school.
Kinsella.... just another goof.
I was very careful with what I said when I posted the Youtube video of the Israeli soldier calling Palestinians animals. I said "Israelis" not "the Israelis." If more than one Israeli is guilty of believing Palestinians are animals then what I said is not a "generalization."
So let's say I walk throughout Montreal and find two people who say Palestinians are animals. Would it be correct for me to write "Montrealers call Palestinians animals"?
I am very sympathetic to Israel. I feel sorry for this country that needs to understand that its security will only come through peace and a viable Palestinian state and not through military attacks. Every time the infrastructure gets damaged in Gaza (what is left of it) and the people there are led to more and more desperation, peace for Israel moves further away. I understand the idea that a state has a right to defend itself but Israel also has an obligation to its own self interest and it is feeding extremism by its behaviour and sacrificing its future security by tactics that do nothing other than radicalize the people there. The planned destruction of homes and group punishment is a unifying force for extremists.
When rockets are being fired at your citizens it takes a lot to chart a path away from violence but this is a risky and necessary approach. Only through the relief of the horror of what is happening in Gaza can anything else come about.
This is a place that could benefit from a UN force. Israel should not be going after the rocket sites-- others with a better humanitarian record and a more peaceful objective need to take that on. The border should be opened and a UN force inserted. That force should take out Hamas if it is unwilling to give up on the attacks but then it should protect the people and build a state. Israel should be kept out as any action it takes will only make things worse. A UN force will need to be there for a generation because the hatred and radicalization of the people there will not go away over night but security and infrastructure must be provided and territorial integrity given to this nation.
I continue to be appalled at the crazy extremist statements on both sides. Yes, the JDL is a fascistic organization that has spawned (or sheltered) assassins. Yes, "Jewish" is often conflated with "Israeli" and "Zionist". This is troubling not only because Israel is in fact a Jewish settler state that grants automatic citizenship to virtually any Jew (even one fleeing from criminal charges in another country), but also because bred-in-the-bone anti-semites (those who were raised by parents and priests and in cultures where antisemitism has been common currency) are free to utter their anti-Jewish crap without caring a hoot about such fine details as distinguishing between Jews and Zionists or Israelis. So both right-wing, expansionist Zionists and good old-fashioned Jew-haters feed from the same trough of hatred and from the same ideological casuistry (Jewish must equal Israeli or Zionist).
If someone like ultra-progressive leftist James Petras, the Latin Americanist who also loves to hate Israel, can be so cavalier with his anti-Jewish statements and not be challenged, no Jew, however disgusted with Israeli policy and however non-practising, can be anything but disquieted.
I think actually the "support for Israel right or wrong" line plays better with non-Jews than it does with Jews. Jews have become a kind of cause celebre for non-Jews who want to give themselves tollerance street cred.
Harpo and Iggy can paint themselves as true defenders of civil liberties by sticking by Israel. All of which is supported by the general feeling of sympathy because of what happened in the last war (note I am saying "the last") and our grandiose conceptions of ourselves as defenders of the weak, and our role in liberating Western Europe from tyrrany.
Defending Israel (and therefore Jews) is the ideologically sanctioned way that one can express ones "good intentions", and is unassailable as such because of the unique circumstances in which our cultural concept of Jewishness comes into the context of the present day.
Jews, on the whole, (Zionist and otherwise,) are far less enamoured of all of that because most are fully cognizant of the reality, which is that European Christians basically abandoned them when not directly persecuting them, knowing full well that the Allies fought WWII because it was forced on them, not because they wanted to save anyone from concentration camps.
But yes, defending Israel is like a tollerance "get out of jail free" card for the gentile right, and that patriotic sentiment and sense of moral righteousness is precisely the market they are playing into among non-Jews, not the "Jewish vote", because for most white Christian anglos Israel and Jews are synonymous.
Your're right the defencing Israel is a get out of jail free card from people like Stephen Harper. And the Christian Right is more fanatical in its support for Israel than many Jews are.
That being said, the difference is the non-Jews who are really really supportive of Israel tend to already vote Conservative (either for religious reasons or because they support Israel because they like how they smash the "barbaric" Arabs) - so among that group Harper's extreme pro-Israel stance was preaching to the converted. Harper's support for Israel did get some traditionally Liberal votes in the Jewish community - though not nearly as much as he would have liked.
But now that Iggy and Harper have the same position, Harper can't use Israel as a wedge issue.
We should also be pressing the PM publicly to back up a two state solution...
No, Sean, that's where you step way over the line. Canada has no more business suggesting the number of states or form of government in the Middle East than it has in dictating the form of government in Afghanistan. Our government's duty is to condemn Israel's violations of international law and U.N. resolutions, and demand that Israel be sanctioned until it ceases its outlaw activity. Canada, and indeed you and I, have no business telling the people of the region what shape a future political solution should take.
I disagree, Oldgoat. I don't believe SSC is trolling and your threat for him to be gone is heavy-handed. Without SSC in this discussion, this "debate" would be a monologue.
Caissa, I respect your views and always have. But if babble ever turns into a forum where we must have a "two-sided" debate with the kind of racist pro-imperialist provocative shit that SSC is spewing, I will certainly not waste one second of my time here. Babble is for people that AGREE WITH EACH OTHER on such fundamental issues as to whether mass murder and national enslavement should or should not be visited on the Palestinian people - and we then vigorously discuss and disagree on the issues of how such problems should be resolved. Every day I argue, convince, persuade my fellow workers and union members and relatives and neighbours about the basic principles involved. I will NOT tolerate babble being dragged down to the level of "free speech for everyone, no holds barred".
We should also be pressing the PM publicly to back up a two state solution...
No, Sean, that's where you step way over the line. Canada has no more business suggesting the number of states or form of government in the Middle East than it has in dictating the form of government in Afghanistan. Our government's duty is to condemn Israel's violations of international law and U.N. resolutions, and demand that Israel be sanctioned until it ceases its outlaw activity. Canada, and indeed you and I, have no business telling the people of the region what shape a future political solution should take.
I simply cannot accept this pretense at benign observation and non involvement.The idea that we can do what we want over here and not say anything about a solution while our actions affect all the players and the viability of that solution is not only naive it is callous. We are not observers of a planet from behind the clouds with some prime directive ala Star Trek-- we have a free trade agreement with Israel, we have weapons trade and and intelligence sharing. The fact that our economic involvement alone in the region, never mind involvement in US led alliances means we are not some far-off observer.
The idea that expressing an opinion is such a problem- even as removed as that is is shocking. Did you criticize the government for taking a position on apartheid in South Africa as well?
We have more responsibility than to engage all around the world as we please affecting balances of economic power with every major trade deal and then pretend not to interfere beyond our borders.
We are not speaking of a single group of people that we are lecturing as to how to run there lives-- if that were the case then you might have a point-- but we are talking of two separate nations who have long declared themselves as such -- it is comment about their attempts at interfering in each others right to exist that you are taking issue with. Do you realize how absurd that is?
I certainly support respecting self determination but when that self determination has been expressed and is being attacked by others whom we support (and this is true on both sides) then we have an obligation to express our opinion or pull up all stakes and get out of not only that region but all others who are involved there. In other words if we want to create a firewall around Canada and not trade with anyone including the US as well as Israel, then we can lay claim to the possibility of some aloof high ground where we have a moral right and obligation to non involvement and non comment. In the real world things are not quite so simple. And fundamentally a two state solution is nothing more or less than an acceptance of each other to exist-- this is not us coming in and commenting on borders, capitals, inter-state relations, form of government etc. This is us saying clearly both have expressed their existence as nations and that should be respected-- now please get to the table and get it done. This expression is the easy part but it is a big one-- the details, I agree are to come from bilateral negotiations that become possible when each recognizes the other's existence. Until that happens there is no working out for themselves anything and there is only the utilization of our participation by the parties as best they can to gain advantage.
The idea that expressing an opinion is such a problem- even as removed as that is is shocking. Did you criticize the government for taking a position on apartheid in South Africa as well?
You are either confused, Sean, or hard of hearing. Canada must loudly, publicly, continuously, condemn the Israeli war criminals. It must participate in international movements of boycott and blockade against this outlaw state. It must treat Israel exactly the way we treated apartheid South Africa. It must publicly demand adherence to the U.N. resolutions, which among them outline the internationally recognized solutions to the border issues and issues of national self-determination of the people.
But you are asking Canada (i.e. the government) to promote a "two-state solution"? You think the people of the region need Stephen Harper's (or Sean's) kindly advice as to how to arrange their affairs once the crimes cease being committed? You haven't even figured out yet that such international colonial interference and white-man's-burden-ship is what has fueled and perpetuated the subjugation of the people and the perpetuation of warfare and bloodshed in the first place?
Don't lecture me about how we can't be stand-offish. I am demanding that Canada take a courageous international stand and back it up by isolating these pariahs and uniting with all other countries of the same mind. But giving advice as to good governance? That is imperial highhandedness, racist condescension, and naked interference. The people of the region will tell you (and I will support them) to keep your fingers out of their affairs.
I concur.
I think we should clarify this thing about the two-state solution. "We" did not support the two state solution because "we" thought it was the best plan for the resolution of the conflict. We supported it because it was a tentative proposal based in negotiations between legitimate leadership of both sides, as outlined in international agreements under the Oslo accords.
What we thought of it was basically irrelevant. What was important was that it served for a while as a tentative basis for a negotiated peace, which was agreed to by the parties involved.
I supported the Oslo process, even though I felt it was fundametally wrong on some very serious moral points, such as the fact that it made no concrete proposals (nor even an agreement in principle) about compensating Arab refugees, or otherwise dealing the "right of return" for Palestinian families.
There were also numerous pragmatic flaws that were quite clearly outlined by Edward Said, in his lengthy critique, which he felt doomed the process to failure, points that were proven quite correct as the process unfolded. It may even be the case that the proposed two state solution and the Oslo process in its entirety has damaged the cause of peace overall, largely because of Arafat's precipitous decision to sign the agreement before major issues like a clear timetable for Israeli withdrawal was established, and agreements in principle were made regarding the "Right of Return of Palestinian refugees."
It is quite clear now, that Israel merely used the Oslo process as a way of furthering its expansion into the West Bank, and increasing settlement, so as to distort the "facts on the ground" so as to be better positioned to deal with the Palestinians when the so called "final status" talks took place.
Well, here we are now and that is water under the bridge. Oslo is dead. Lets move on.
Nonetheless, in terms of our position of being in "solidarity" with the Palestinian struggle, it is not our place to dictate the terms under which Palestinians extract themselves from the dire situation that they are in, as Unionist rightly points out, but to support whatever negotiated solutions that are being pursued by the legitimate leadership(s) of the Palestinian people.
Right now, our object must be to put preassure on Israel to end it heinous military assault and put preassure on Israel in order to stop it commiting genocidal acts, and to return to the negotiating table.
The two state solution did not come from somewhere else it came from there. To suggest that this is some kind of racist thing to ask for progress towards what has was a local solution is absurd and I'll stop there rather than getting very impolite.
Seems you are trying to create controversy where there is none.
Well, actually no. The two state solution came from here. Previously it was called partition.
Oslo was the point at which the Palestinian leadership decided that it was impossible to oppose previous Israeli military conquest and the imposition of partition, and that continuing to pursue the idea of a single secular state of all the land and all its people was unfeasible and would only lead to more suffering.
Numerous Palestinians objected to Yasser Arafat's decision to agree to this, and the decision basicaly had to be rammed down the throats of the Palestinian National Assembly through some very undemocratic means. with the background support of the US and Israel. The hope was that a state could be created and people could get on with their lives.
In fact, Oslo was a surrender of the claims that the Palestinians had on the lands they had be evicted from.
So, morally the whole thing was questionable, right from the get go, and as many people pointed out there were serious issues left outstanding when the agreement was signed, and in the end these proved to difficult to surmount. For one thing the intitial agreement was tentative enough for Israel to exploit it, and in fact the 6 year Oslo period also saw Israeli settlement activity in the West Bank and Arab areas of Jerusalem, increase:
In the political field, too, Barak has upstaged Netanyahu: Bibi returned at least the greater part of the town Hebron to the Palestinians. Barak has not returned one single inch of occupied territory.
This expansion fundamentally broke the spirit and indeed the letter of the agreement. For example more settlers meant increased water usage, and the accord specifically stated that there was to be no increase in water usage by the Israeli settlements.)
I strongly reccomend you read "The End of the Peace Process" by Edward Said, for a clear analysis of why Oslo, and the "Two State Solution", failed.
Lets be clear at least on this point. The two state solution is partition, as originally set forth by the UN in 1948, except that the Israeli part has swallowed up half of what was originally set out for the Arabs by the UN.
The Arabs were never consulted about partition in the begining, and it is wholey a western and Israeli idea. The latter day rendering of this as "the Two State Solution" is Arab compromise in the face of defeat.
Unionist wrote: racist pro-imperialist provocative shit that SSC is spewing,
I have respect for your opinions as well Unionist. Where we differ is on whether SSC is committing the sin you accuse him of. By and large I agree with the essence of the rest of your post.
The latest from Iggy's team:
"Anti-Zionism" is almost always a P.R. flak's weasel term for "anti-Semitism"
People should write their Liberal MP and ask whether they share the view that anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite.
With all the carnage and the blood of children flowing freely, Michael Ignatieff stands four square with the blood letters even repeating the Big Lies:
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/564094
The idea that expressing an opinion is such a problem- even as removed as that is is shocking. Did you criticize the government for taking a position on apartheid in South Africa as well?
You are either confused, Sean, or hard of hearing. Canada must loudly, publicly, continuously, condemn the Israeli war criminals. It must participate in international movements of boycott and blockade against this outlaw state. It must treat Israel exactly the way we treated apartheid South Africa. It must publicly demand adherence to the U.N. resolutions, which among them outline the internationally recognized solutions to the border issues and issues of national self-determination of the people.
But you are asking Canada (i.e. the government) to promote a "two-state solution"? You think the people of the region need Stephen Harper's (or Sean's) kindly advice as to how to arrange their affairs once the crimes cease being committed? You haven't even figured out yet that such international colonial interference and white-man's-burden-ship is what has fueled and perpetuated the subjugation of the people and the perpetuation of warfare and bloodshed in the first place?
Don't lecture me about how we can't be stand-offish. I am demanding that Canada take a courageous international stand and back it up by isolating these pariahs and uniting with all other countries of the same mind. But giving advice as to good governance? That is imperial highhandedness, racist condescension, and naked interference. The people of the region will tell you (and I will support them) to keep your fingers out of their affairs.
I truly wish Canada would, but we live in the real world, Unionist, and Canada is just not that principled.
Don't tell me it's Harper's fault either: Where are the rest of them?
Only one lone, now silenced, Tory MP has said the courageous thing.
Where is the "left"? Where is the opposition?
Ignatieff is certainly coming across as being simple-minded. I can't believe what a whore he is. I have to admit, given his credentials, I was expecting better.
I remember reading a poster to the late, great Liberty Forum who surmised that the reason for the Gaza pullout was just to get the settlers out of the way so IDF could go in for the kill. Looks like he knew what he talking about.
The news from the Red Cross and the Canadians who have been evacuated is horrifying. While some Jews are standing up and condemning this atrocity, occupying consulates etc. it seems too little too late. In equating anti-semitism with anti-Zionism it is the Zionists who have dragged the entire Jewish diaspora into the fray, not those who somehow suffer from a completely irrational hatred of of Jews as if it were some kind of mental illness. In sixty years, the Jewish people have yet to own up to the terrorism, mass-murder and criminality that created the state of Israel and continues to expand it with the blood of the actual descendants of Abraham - the Jews, Christians and Muslims who lived together peacefully in Palestine for centuries.
Instead its been rah, rah, rah Hadassah-bazaar making-the-desert-bloom support for the state of Israel.
And no I could not find an in context source for the Begin quote. Although the citer is an Israeli journalist, there is some dispute as to whether or not Begin was referring to Palestinian suicide bombers or all Palestinians. I'll have go to the Talmud for what Jews should think of non-Jews but I don't like to paste that kind of hate online.
Babble is for people that AGREE WITH EACH OTHER
I was becoming concerned at the tenor of many of the comments in this thread and then this comment popped up. I am really not certain what to make of this position. Although I agree with some comments and not others, it appears that this discussion is becoming more paritsan and moving towards one side being the victim and the other fully at fault. This is a zero sum game in my opinion. There can be no peace without negotiation. I am not an expert in Middle Eastern affairs, but it seems to me that there needs to be a step back from the brink by both sides. Neither is innocent here.
Also, I don't log on here to hear everyone agree with me or to be one of the group nodding their heads in agreement. That would be a waste of my time.
In sixty years, the Jewish people have yet to own up to the terrorism, mass-murder and criminality that created the state of Israel and continues to expand it with the blood of the actual descendants of Abraham - the Jews, Christians and Muslims who lived together peacefully in Palestine for centuries.
That's another anti-Semitic statement. How about stopping?
That's another one. What are you trying to accomplish?
You sound like a typical Islamophobe, only substituting Jews for Muslims. Are you enjoying yourself?
Frustrated Mess wrote:
Quote:
"Israel has been attacked from Gaza, not just last year, but for almost 10 years. They evacuated from Gaza so there is no occupation in Gaza."
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/564094
I already thought he was an opportunist prick but words fail me with that statement.
The round up of news here is pretty depressing but a great reminder of how horrific the situation is:
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
ETA: Having great difficulty navigating the new site. I hope I killed the sidescroll.
Iggy thinks there's no occupation in Gaza? Now we know who the frontrunner is for biggest idiot of 2009
Only one lone, now silenced, Tory MP has said the courageous thing.
Where is the "left"? Where is the opposition?
The left is in the streets. Sadly, the parliamentary left seems to have deserted us. Of all the MPs and MLAs in Manitoba (including 40 or so NDPers), I can't think of a single one who has been vocally supportive of Palestine or attended a Palestinian solidarity event in recent years. Contrast that to things like this and it is clear that Palestine has no or nearly no allies in Canadian politics. Just look at how the NDP treated Svend Robinson and it's easy to see why.
EDIT: It's actually almost 40 elected NDP politicians in Manitoba
Genstrike, that article you linked to is pretty horrifying, if those quotes are accurate. We knew about Wasylycia-Leis and Pat Martin being Israel champions, and we're had threads about Ovide Mercredi's and even Phil Fontaine's sycophantic trips to Israel. But I've never seen it brought together in one place this way - and Darlene Dziewit of the MFL!!??:
One of the first guests to give greetings was Darlene Dziewit, president of the Manitoba Federation of Labour, who said she had experienced “a transforming visit to Israel.”
“It is important to see that in Manitoba, [unlike other provinces, where labour federations have supported boycotting Israel], people who identify with the left politically are also supporters of Israel,” Melnick said.
NDP member of Parliament Judy Wasylycia-Leis, (Winnipeg-North) gave greetings and said how exciting it was for her to be in Israel in May for its 60th anniversary celebrations. She noted that Pat Martin, another NDP MP (for Winnipeg Centre) was present at the event.
The first half of the Shared Values concert featured the music of Hinode Taiko, a drumming group, as well as dances by the India School of Dance Music and Theatre, and the Rusalka Ukrainian Dance Ensemble.
Manitoba Justice Minister David Chomiak, who attended the event, said he is “a big supporter of Israel.”
He added: “I was one of the Ukrainian kids who used to dance with Rusalka. I wasn’t that good. I was in the back row.”
The concert also featured an amazing hoop dance by First Nations dancer Brian Cline, accompanied with vocals and drums by Ray Stevensen. Cline was introduced by former Assembly of First Nations chief Ovid Mercredi [sic], from the Grand Rapids First nations, who has also been to Israel several times on missions with the Jewish National Fund.
About 200 members of First Nations communities from northern Manitoba, Northern Ontario and Saskatchewan came to Winnipeg for the event.
“Many First Nations people have a real connection to Israel because of the things that we [the First Nations and the Jewish People have] suffered. Israelis have a love for the land and we also have a love for the land,” said Linda Mavsilar, a Christian member of a First Nations community in Saskatchewan.
“It is our intention to grow the Manitoba-Israel Shared Values Roundtable, and attract members of different faiths and communities,” said Sharon Blady, an NDP MLA for Kirkfield Park.
Andrew Swan, the province’s minister of competitiveness, training and trade, also gave greetings and said that Manitoba, can learn a lot from Israel’s experience “of being able to take in one million immigrants from the former Soviet Union.”
Disgusting, and shameful. What are they saying these days about Israel's mass murder in Gaza - if anything?
Iggy thinks there's no occupation in Gaza? Now we know who the frontrunner is for biggest idiot of 2009
Only one lone, now silenced, Tory MP has said the courageous thing.
Where is the "left"? Where is the opposition?
The left is in the streets. Sadly, the parliamentary left seems to have deserted us. Of all the MPs and MLAs in Manitoba (including 30 or so NDPers), I can't think of a single one who has been vocally supportive of Palestine or attended a Palestinian solidarity event in recent years. Contrast that to things like this and it is clear that Palestine has no or nearly no allies in Canadian politics. Just look at how the NDP treated Svend Robinson and it's easy to see why.
That's my point ... some leftish people are in the streets, to some extent, but the 'left' leaders are silent, absent, supporting the corporate war machine that butters their bread.
Canadian politics sucks. FPTP sucks. Canadian 'democracy' ... isn't.
It's 'just business'.
I'm like Woody Allen (except not a pedophile) Unionist. I'm not enjoying myself unless everybody is.
If you're trying to smear me as "an anti-semite" I must hitting a little too close to home.
Disgusting, and shameful. What are they saying these days about Israel's mass murder in Gaza - if anything?
That is probably only the tip of the iceberg too, just being an article about one event.
The only ones I've seen say anything about Gaza were here (while I was out in the cold). Chomiak and Melnick were inside.
Out of 40 or so NDP MPs and MLAs from Manitoba (28ish from Winnipeg), I have not seen any of them at the rally, or at the al-Nakba ceremony last summer. It seems like it is a lot easier to get NDP politicians to show up to pro-Israel rallies and Red Fridays than to anti-war marches and Palestinian solidarity events these days. But we will see if any of them show up to the next rally this weekend... I can only assume not, but I will update you if pleasantly surprised.
The latest from Iggy's team:
"Anti-Zionism" is almost always a P.R. flak's weasel term for "anti-Semitism"
People should write their Liberal MP and ask whether they share the view that anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite.
Sunday Hat, your link does clearly not attribute this to Ignatieff.
Can you provide another link?
both Liberals and Conservatives compete for who loves Israel the most title. Conservatives have a good lead but Liberals don't want to be left too far behind.
NDP may as well as adopt formal pro Palestine anti Israel stance in order to separate from pack.
Cueball the leafs have black player on their roster right now. Jamal Mayers. I also remember Val James from the John Brophy years. Grant Fuhr is another and Robbie Earl played for them last year.
The link is to Warren Kinsella's website. Reports indicate he has a senior role in the Ignatieff campaign effort. Unless and until Ignateiff fires him from the campaign I'll assume he speaks on behalf of Ignatieff.
I'm sure the NDP thinks they're playing it safe and that they have some support on both sides of the divide. But, on this one, I think they're wrong.
The slaughter in Gaza is immoral and I think most Canadians, watching the news, see that pretty clearly. I think they'd like their "leaders" to say that. Instead, they see a barrage of maimed children on their TVs and then a parade of politicians declaring that Israel has to "defend itself".
I don't think calling on Israel to stop the bombing immediately would cause much of a backlash amongst the general public. If anything, it might draw attention to the appalling immoral sameness of the Bush-Harper-Iggy positioning.
If Amensty International isn't afraid to go there, why not the NDP. I totally agree Sunday Hat. Both the Conservatives and Liberals have failed to address human rights and the NDP should be championing them.
Agree.
Or explain why not.
Afraid the Bush-Harper-Iggy propaganda machine might chew them up?
Protecting a chance at some power through a coalition?
Are there deals being made for concessions in return for silence?
Is there a voting block at stake?
Yes, the other parties should be supporting the people of Gaza too ... but they are not . .. and somebody should.
Why didn't you help the Palestinians Grandpa?
"Well we were busy figuring out how to get some more power ... more votes, son. It's all about the votes ... and the power ... media too ... Don't want to get in the media on something really controversial, though, and that was just too controversial for a politician to deal with."
Closing for length, and another sidescroll! What's going on here?
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Well, that should be easy enough to verify or infirm. Has your local Grit MP or candidate been seen at such rallies? Can you call him/her up to find out their position? Will you?
I've talked with a few people and no politicians - at all - were spotted at the weekend's Toronto rally, by anyone I spoke to.
I didn't see any politicians in Winnipeg either
EDIT: I should say, any elected politicians. I saw some people from both Communist Parties
Unfuckingbelievable seriously, has the pro_israeli lobby got that much power that it holds everyone hostage?
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"
Only if we let it, by writing ten times less letters and op-eds than it does, and by reelecting their stooges.
Who do we elect though? I'm sorry if I'm being Manitoba-centric here, but I can't think of any elected politician in Manitoba that has been vocally critical of Israel in recent years. At least two of the Manitoba NDP MPs (Pat Martin and Judy W-L) as well as the provincial government and many MLAs have been very supportive of Israel.
I don't think there is any party in Canada which opposes Israeli apartheid and supports Palestine, aside from the Communist Parties
Not all that surprising, given Iggy's statement:
...which is indistinguishable from that of the Bush administration.
It appears Harper can no longer use Israel as a wedge issue in the Jewish community.
Unfuckingbelievable seriously, has the pro_israeli lobby got that much power that it holds everyone hostage?
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"
It's not the lobby ... it's the war industry ... You know ... the corporate controllers of all governments world-wide, who get governments to do their dirty genocide jobs for them.
It's not politics, not religion ... it's just 'business', imo.
It's not politics, not religion ... it's just 'business', imo.
Not the whole story; I doubt Iggy is telling his MPs to avoid all anti-war rallies, just these ones. I could be wrong about that, I suppose.
Ontario Liberal MPP Khalil Ramal and NDP MP Irene Mathyssen were out in London a week ago.
Not all that surprising, given Iggy's statement:
...which is indistinguishable from that of the Bush administration.
It appears Harper can no longer use Israel as a wedge issue in the Jewish community.
But the NDP might be able to, since of course not all Jews are Zionist fuckheads, and oppose this brutal assault. Can we at least get it straight here, on this website, of all websites, that a great many Jews are really uncomfortable with being associated with this kind of brutality, and that Jews do not block vote in support of Israel?
I would estimate that more Jews have attended the protests against the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, than have appeared at the so called counter-demonstrations. Its quite apparent that most responsible Jewish leaders in Canada are low profiling their involvement with the present assault on the people of Gaza.
For example, in the reporting that the Star did on the rally in Toronto the only spokesperson who the Star interviewed was Meir Weinstein, the organizer for the neo-Fascist extremist Jewish Defence League. Even the scurilous Bernie Farber of the CJC was not available for comment, apparently.
That, in and of itself, says something about how Jews feel about what is going on at this point in time.
So far, all we have is your assertion that you have a reliable source stating that the Liberals have been instructed not to speak at these rallies. I for one can't accept your premise without at least a little more information. Given the situation there it is too easy to throw gas on the fire as it were with this sort of unsubstatiated statement.
The easiest way to disprove the statement is to find a Liberal MP who has spoken to a Gaza rally.
All I can say is that this is what rally organizers were told.
The easiest way to disprove the statement is to find a Liberal MP who has spoken to a Gaza rally.
All I can say is that this is what rally organizers were told.
That doesn't disprove anything. Not everyone is going to support these rallies. I would be dismayed if a political party took this sort of stance, (with the exception of Harper's party who might be expected to resort to this sort of tactic). I would need more than your assertion that this was what rally organizers were told. The mess in the middle east needs a lot more critical thinking and reason and a lot less jumping to conclusions. There has been enough of that already.
What is so strange about a party telling its MPs which issues to speak publicly about, which ones to stay quiet about, which events to attend, and what to say?
They tell them how to vote in the Commons, don't they?
I don't get what the fuss is here. The egregious and horrendous thing is Ignatieff's public position on the Gaza situation. If he needed to order his caucus not to speak at rallies, it means he's afraid that the caucus stand may not be monolithic on this point. That's good news.
I can't blame politicians too much for not wanting to jump head-first into this issue, so I'm not sure whether ordering any not to go is really required.
I would estimate that more Jews have attended the protests against the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, than have appeared at the so called counter-demonstrations. Its quite apparent that most responsible Jewish leaders in Canada are low profiling their involvement with the present assault on the people of Gaza.
I agree with you for the most part. However the Harper Conservatives almost certainly made inroads in the Jewish community with their Israel stance. It is not anywhere near a majority of the community - the plurality are still Lib - but it was significant enough to get Peter Kent elected in the riding of Thornhill, for instance.
That being said, the NDP statement isn't as critical of Israel as they were circa 2002 but their statement is light years better than that of Ignatieff, which is identical to the Bush administration. In fact it is Ignatieff who is taking the "lead" - Iggy's statement dates Dec. 29 and that of Lawrence Cannon - which is basically identical - dates Jan. 4. Stephen Ignatieff indeed.
In fact it is Ignatieff who is taking the "lead" - Iggy's statement dates Dec. 29 and that of Lawrence Cannon - which is basically identical - dates Jan. 4. Stephen Ignatieff indeed.
I wish - but that's not accurate.
Cannon's original statement, which Iggy basically copied, was issued December 27, 2008, as reported right here on babble by jrose.
Let them fight over who's the egg and who's the chicken. I agree, the NDP is still light years ahead. The wedge may indeed change.
I think actually the "support for Israel right or wrong" line plays better with non-Jews than it does with Jews. Jews have become a kind of cause celebre for non-Jews who want to give themselves tollerance street cred.
Harpo and Iggy can paint themselves as true defenders of civil liberties by sticking by Israel. All of which is supported by the general feeling of sympathy because of what happened in the last war (note I am saying "the last") and our grandiose conceptions of ourselves as defenders of the weak, and our role in liberating Western Europe from tyrrany.
Defending Israel (and therefore Jews) is the ideologically sanctioned way that one can express ones "good intentions", and is unassailable as such because of the unique circumstances in which our cultural concept of Jewishness comes into the context of the present day.
Jews, on the whole, (Zionist and otherwise,) are far less enamoured of all of that because most are fully cognizant of the reality, which is that European Christians basically abandoned them when not directly persecuting them, knowing full well that the Allies fought WWII because it was forced on them, not because they wanted to save anyone from concentration camps.
But yes, defending Israel is like a tollerance "get out of jail free" card for the gentile right, and that patriotic sentiment and sense of moral righteousness is precisely the market they are playing into among non-Jews, not the "Jewish vote", because for most white Christian anglos Israel and Jews are synonymous.
Would it really hurt them so much politically to do the right thing, take some leadership, and inform Canadians?
Would it really hurt them to say that (as I understand it from some links on here) over 500 civilian and Hamas deaths* in the last week is unacceptably disproportionate to the 4 Israeli (soldiers?) deaths in a year of Palestinian rocket fire into Israel?
*Not distinguished. If anyone finds a properly distinguished death toll for Gaza citizens and military, let me know.
These maps are informative.
Week 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811189.stm
Week 1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7805808.stm
And this ...
ISRAEL'S SELF-DEFEATING GAZA OFFENSIVE
By Gideon Rachman
Financial Times (London)
January 5, 2009 -- 19:04 GMT [11:04 PST]
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/34c5a426-db49-11dd-be53-000077b07658.html
By sending ground troops into the Gaza Strip, Israel has crossed a line that brings it perilously close to strategic failure.
Just as with the Lebanon war of 2006, an air bombardment has failed to stop rocket fire into Israel -- and has been followed by a ground invasion. The Israeli government says it has learned the lessons of its stalemated war with Hezbollah, the Lebanese militia. Gaza is more hospitable terrain than southern Lebanon; Hamas is militarily weaker than Hezbollah; Israel is better prepared and is using new tactics.
Maybe so. But what are Israel’s strategic needs? The first is the protection of Israeli citizens; the second is the re-establishment of Israel’s deterrent power; the third is the preservation of international support; and the fourth some prospect of durable peace. Each one of these objectives is now in peril.
By sending the army into Gaza, Israel has probably ensured it will lose many more lives than the four killed by Hamas rockets in the year before the conflict started. It is, of course, the job of the military to take casualties to protect civilians. But Israel’s is a citizen army. The point has not been lost on the Israeli public. A poll taken early in the conflict found more than 70 per cent support for bombing Gaza -- but just 20 per cent support for a ground invasion.
full text here ... http://www.ufppc.org/content/view/8256/35/
Cartoon illustration here ...
http://media.ft.com/cms/eaa615ec-db52-11dd-be53-000077b07658.jpg
And this ...
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=98768"Our message to the Zionist community is this - your leaders are spilling your blood to win an election," he said, referring to snap legislative polls called for February 10. Various analysts have said that the Israeli bombardment is geared to drum up support for politicians in the coming polls.
omigod this is so sick ...
:(
This is what struck me about that last one Saga:
Par for the course for some third world backwater of the kind that lives in the world of Rudyard Kippling. Donkeys, Camels, Arabs all swirl together in the imagination as the backdrop of a poor and backward people fed on superstition and ignorance by their religious mentors... but wait...
Gaza was not like that 50 years ago. Gaza was an up-to-date and modern city and something of a mediteranean resort, with one of the most highly educated populations in the Arab world.
It's a "crime against civilization" as the director of the recently flattened Americas Institute stated after his school was targetted by the IDF. Israel has reduced the people of Gaza to riding around in donkey carts, slowly at first and then in ever increasing strides over a period of 40 years of occupation.
But the Doug's of the world "can't blame" the politicians.
Defending Israel (and therefore Jews) is the ideologically sanctioned way that one can express ones "good intentions", and is unassailable as such because of the unique circumstances in which our cultural concept of Jewishness comes into the context of the present day.
Jews, on the whole, (Zionist and otherwise,) are far less enamoured of all of that because most are fully cognizant of the reality, which is that European Christians basically abandoned them when not directly persecuting them, knowing full well that the Allies fought WWII because it was forced on them, not because they wanted to save anyone from concentration camps.
That's right on the money Cue. I was thinking to myself while reading/listening to some of the apologists for the ethnic cleansing in Gaza that this is a form of white liberal guilt syndrome (WLGS). There is still 1000+ of antisemitism embedded in the European gentile consciousness and the overwhelming guilt of the holocaust. These manifest themselves in some as unfettered support for Israeli colonialism. The theocratic state of Israel could even been born of WLGS as some European anti-Semites (i.e. politicians) made amends for their widespread support of Nazism in a way that would not require any change or transformation on their part.
People should be aware that when they get that "those poor people" feeling that they should first look at how they are implicated in the poverty of others before they try to "help".
I agreed with Unionist that we should not be suprised by Iggy's hardline with MPs but should see the brighter side of things - there must be some dissention in the Liberal Party. Wierd, not often that a Liberal will disent on actual issues when there are internal party sqaubbles to occupy every waking hour.
Does anyone have proof of that the Human Rights activist and leader of the Liberal party has banned Liberal MPs from attending rallies are is this just a thread on hearsay.....taken from a blog based on hearsay.
According to Kady O'Malley, Iggy's office denies the story. I'd find the denial more believable if it wasn't for the fact that no Liberal MPs spoke or apparently even attended the rallies last weekend when, in the past, they've been quite eager to come out.
So this is still just a thread based on hearsay and your personal beliefs. You need to back up your assertions that what you allege is based on fact.
There are more rallies this weekend. Now that it's "official" that Liberal MPs won't be punished let's see if they find the courage of their convictions to speak out or if they find some other excuse to remain silent.
Hahaha! Tortureboy, being touted as a "human rights activist"! :D :D
For Iggy having to live in Etobicoke Lakeshore would be torture which is why he has a condo in Yorkville instead.
I would estimate that more Jews have attended the protests against the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, than have appeared at the so called counter-demonstrations.
Maybe. But if we keep seeing shit like this that amy change. http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024263.php#comments
I certainly don't want to attend anything where I'm called a "product of pigs" and told that "Hitler didn't do a good enough job." This in Toronto.
When a "human rights activist" starts saying there's an "allowable use of torture" we have a problem.
I certainly don't want to attend anything where I'm called a "product of pigs" and told that "Hitler didn't do a good enough job." This in Toronto.
I looked at this Islamophobic racist hate site - as per your recommendation - and didn't hear anyone say "Hitler didn't do a good enough job". I notice too that you yourself added the word "enough" - I guess the original "Hitler didn't do a good job" wasn't shocking enough for your taste, so you had to sex it up a little wee bit?
It was, in fact, the "interviewer" who tried to put these words into one demonstrator's mouth, and when he persisted, the demonstrator appears to have put his fist into the baiting "interviewer"'s camera. Good for him!!
I notice you also seem to credit the Islamophobes' "interpretation" of the Quran!
Some people will go far to find anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist - even to the point of trying to provoke it. Such hatemongers are the enemies of my people.
Well put, Unionist!
Too late!!
An Alberta Tory beat them to it!
http://www.rabble.ca/comment/976579/It-got-pickedAnd the Western Standard published it.
Did I really just say those things? unfriggenbelievable!
I would estimate that more Jews have attended the protests against the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, than have appeared at the so called counter-demonstrations.
Maybe. But if we keep seeing shit like this that amy change. http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024263.php#comments
I certainly don't want to attend anything where I'm called a "product of pigs" and told that "Hitler didn't do a good enough job." This in Toronto.
You might like to know that Jihadwatch has a sister site called Jewwatch, they have similar standards.
First off, where is the begining of the interview with the fella who says "Hitler didn't do a good job"? I mean after all, it is the internet, and there is plenty of bandwidth so why the need for the "edit". Secondly, I don't happen to think Hitler did "a good job".
Do you?
When you were on your way to becoming an "academic", did anyone teach you anything about standards of evidence? I really hope you don't teach journalism. I also really hope you don't do any ESL work
Anyway, you were talking about how you condemn the horrific attack upon an urban population using high explosive devices that cause indescriminate damage, and therefore necessarily wound and kill numerous non-combatants, something for which Gen Dragomir Milosevic was tried for at the Hague for his actions in 1992.
As the presiding judge noted when he sentenced the former JNA general to 33 years in jail:
[SNIP]
Milosevic, commander of 18,000 Bosnian Serb troops who besieged Sarajevo between August 1994 and November 1995, had denied all charges, arguing that the city was a battleground and his forces were carrying out legitimate military operations.
Robinson rejected this, saying the evidence showed the general "planned and ordered gross and systematic violations of international humanitarian law".
Does that sound like this to you?
He said UNRWA regularly provided the Israeli army with exact geographical coordinates of its facilities and the school was in a built-up area. "Of course it was entirely inevitable if artillery shells landed in that area there would be a high number of casualties," he said.
Casualty numbers were still being assessed but the latest figures were 30 dead and 55 injured, including at least five critically, Ging said.
UN official says Gaza school was clearly marked
Frankly, if the Gaza Strip were filled with Nazis wearing Swastika armbands, it would still be wrong to starve them, bomb them, and deny them medical aid, even if one or two managed to escape the prison, or kill a few people elsewhere, once in a while. That is the kind of thing they did. It is called collective punishment. That is why were opposed to them, remember?
Please go on expressing of your learned opinions. Your bountiful humanitarian instincts and principles shine like the sun on a summer day.
If the conversation was something like:
Q: What do you think of Hitler?
A: Hitler didn't do a good job
How is that to be taken as approval of Hitler?
I was at the rally. I was under a large banner that identified me and others around me as Jewish. No one said anything in the least bit hostile to me - quite the opposite.
That one, or perhaps two, people in the entire rally of 10,000 said something questionable is unfortunate but I suspect had someone turned the cameras on the JDL and asked them what they think about Arabs you would have gotten quite a number of shocking statements.
Yeah, I buy it. The guy who said "Hitler didn't do a good job" (before punching someone) is really AGAINST Hitler. I certainly can't imagine he has ANYTHING agaisnt Jews. And the guy calling them the "product of pigs"...um, well, why don't one of you defenders get back to me for a plausible explantaion for that one and how IT isn't anti-Smitism either.
And this guy here http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_spine/archive/2008/12/29/quot-death-to-all-juice-quot.aspx
I'm sure HE isn't an anti-Semite calling for genocide as well as being too dumb to spell. I'm sure he jsut really hates juice.
The point is you're making an assumption about what he means and you're also doing it without the full context of what the "videographer" said leading up to that.
The video is a propaganda film that's been highly edited to highlight two incidents involving two individuals out of a crowd of 10,000, and one of those incidents is highly open to interpretation. You are assuming that what the guy means is Hitler didn't do a good job of killing all the Jews but you're adding in the "killing all the Jews" part which just happens to be the key part of your presumed sentence. He could have just as easily meant "Hitler didn't do a good job for Germany" but without the initial question we have no way of putting the answer in context which makes me wonder why the interviewer EDITED HIS INITIAL QUESTION OUT of the video? For all we know the conversation could have gone like this:
Q: Do you think Hitler did a good job?
A: Hitler didn't do a good job.
All we have is the "interviewer" trying hard to badger the guy into saying something he could use against him (because obviously "Hitler didn't do a good job" wasn't enough) and the guy shoving the camera once he realised what the anonymous JDL interviewer was trying to do.
As for you latest link, that wasn't from the Toronto rally.
Yes, Mycroft. That guy who violently attacked the guy with teh camera in teh midst of a rally where people were calling Jews the products of pigs...I'm sure in the fuller context of that video, he was really jsut explaining the the flaws of Nazi Germany's transportation policy. I'm sure it was edited from "Hitler didn't do a a good job when it came to easing traffic congestion on Berlin freeways." I shouldn't ahve leapt to conclusions and assumed the worst.
Want to take a stab at explaining away the guy calling them the products of pigs?
How about the guy in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NW6gvrug44&eur - the one making the "throat slitting" gesture to the Jewish group across the street? I'll give him the benefit of teh doubt and assume he wasn't trying to intimidate them or threaten violence. I'm sure he was merely inviting them over for dinner after teh rally for a nice chat and the throat-sliting gesture was to assure them that the meat they'd be eating was slaughtered in the correct manner, rendering it kosher.
Yes, Mycroft. That guy who violently attacked the guy with teh camera in teh midst of a rally where people were calling Jews the products of pigs
People? I only saw one person in that video saying that.
...I'm sure in the fuller context of that video, he was really jsut explaining the the flaws of Nazi Germany's transportation policy. I'm sure it was edited from "Hitler didn't do a a good job when it came to easing traffic congestion on Berlin freeways." I shouldn't ahve leapt to conclusions and assumed the worst.
Why do you think the first part of the exchange was edited out? Could it be to distort the second part? Of course not because JDL videographers are such trustworthy people who would never distort something a Palestinian said in order to create propaganda.
Star I've talked to JDL people in the past and they say things about Arabs and Palestinians that make the claims in that video look like kindergarten. Would you make a generalization about all Jews based on what a few members of the JDL terrorist group say? Of course not. So why are you insisting we generalize about all Palestinians based on your little JDL propaganda film?
You might like to know that Jihadwatch has a sister site called Jewwatch, they have similar standards.
They're not "sister sites" at all. "Jew watch" is run by Frank Wetner, a member fo teh National Alliance. "Jihad Watch" is run by Robert Spencer, a writer on religion. Amazing what you can find out with Google and 30 seconds of effort.