Ignasty surrenders any pretense at having a heart, mind, or soul
January 20, 2009 - 10:36pm
He is 100% cold blooded opportunistic ... [insert your own derogratory adjective] ...
Deputy Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff came to Holy Blossom Temple last night to apologize for having said as a leadership candidate that Israel had committed a "war crime."
After being introduced as "a potential future prime minister of Canada," Ignatieff described the 2006 episode as "the most painful experience of my short political career, and it was an error."
On the other hand, how many politicians so readily admit speaking the truth, just once, was "the most painful experience".
I wish I were making it up.
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/414265
That Canada has a choice of either Harpoon or Iggy is just fucking horrible. Sorry for the 'f' word, but nothing else fits.
This is the guy that Jack Layton wants to be the next Prime Minister of Canada.
What? To our friend Sven it is freedom. You can choose immoral sycophant 'A', or immoral sycophant 'B'. It's a choice!
"the most painful experience of my short political career, and it was an error." (Ignatieff)
Let us hope that it is indeed a short political carreer.
Well ... his timing is just impecable, isn't it!
sicksicksicksick
And there are no alternatives because no sane and honourable person wants to be a politician in Canada because they are just sicksicksick.
(sarcasm alert) Please, let's give the man the benefit of the doubt... Maybe he meant that compared to what they just did in Gaza, describing Israel's bombing of Beyrouth as a war crime was an error... (alert over, back to main program)
It's as if he was telling the pro-Israel lobby: "There, now that I have apologized again, will you re-fund the Grits and let us take power?"
What an opportunistic prick. It's hard to imagine that the LPC actually annointed someone who makes *gasp* Paul Martin look good.
That's exactly how I see it also...they know who to suck up too...Just like the Cons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkM5eyN8ytI&feature=user
You guys figure the pro-Israel lobby's money is what decides elections? I think maybe you should rethink that one.
Michelle's right - The Liberals are hurting more from the fact that corporate donations are not allowed anymore and they cannot convince individual Canadians to donate to them.
Worse than that, Ignasty thinks he must pander to the worst human instincts in order to win the Jewish vote. It would suggest he holds a low opinion of the Jewish community.
FM, point well taken! There are many, many Jews who are disgusted with the criminal and inhuman behavior of the state of Israel. There have been some great articles written by Jews explaining that Israel's actions are "un-Jewish" because they fly in the face of the religion itself which apperently comands every Jew to make the world a better place (as a non- Jew I'm paraphrasing, so please don't beat me up on the exact wording).
Why in the hell wouldn't Iggy try appealing to them and sticking to his earlier and correct statement? The man is a complete coward.
Worse than that, Ignasty thinks he must pander to the worst human instincts in order to win the Jewish vote. It would suggest he holds a low opinion of the Jewish community.
But is Ignatieff really trying to pander to the Jewish vote?
Perhaps it is more likely that he is pandering to elite opinion on Israel -- the kind he has spent many years ingratiating himself with abroad.
To pander to a voter, you have to really understand what Canadian voters want. I am not convinced Ignatieff really understands the country yet (or ever will). I assume what he says in public is an elaboration of what his handlers have briefed him on.
Michelle, a number of pundits said explicitly after Ignatieff's "ignominious" moment of truth, during Israel's blitzkrieg against Lebanon, that he had just scuttled his chance of winning the Liberal nomination. They seemed to acknowledge the existence and power of this lobby at least among Liberal Party members.
"the most painful experience of my short political career, and it was an error."
What was painful for Ignatieff was not necessarily calling Qana a "war crime", but that he originally said he didn't "lose any sleep" over the deaths of innocent people there. Then when he was in Quebec, he did a 180 and called it a war crime, hoping B'nai Brith and the CJC wouldn't notice.
I dare say it can be quite painful having to speak out of both sides of your mouth all the time.
"
But is Ignatieff really trying to pander to the Jewish vote? Perhaps it is more likely that he is pandering to elite opinion on Israel -- the kind he has spent many years ingratiating himself with abroad."
I agree. Its not really about the so-called Jewish vote (not that there is even such a thing). Jews are less than 1% of the population of Canada and winning a bigger share of the vote among Canadians Jews might help the Liberals win back Thornhill and that's about it. Its about Iggy wanting to conform to "elite opinion" and have people like Robert Fulford and Warren Kinsella say nice things about him.
Candian Jewish News gives us a Q&A from Ignasty:
http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16140&Itemid=86
After reading that, I wondered, what would Ignasty have said if was alive in 1830s when Nat Turner led the one and only slave rebellion? In the aftermatch of the rebellion, the State of Virginia executed 50 slaves and 200 others were killed by whites seeking vengeance.
I thought what if Ignasty gave an interview to the Canadian White News?
CWN: The state is blaming Nat Turner for all of this. What's your position? How do you respond to that?
Ignasty: Nat Turner is a terrorist and Canada can't touch him with a 10-foot pole. Turner is to blame for organizing, instigating this rebellion, and then for sheltering among the slave population. And Virginia is justified in continuing rounding up and lynching these slaves. But every Canadian, whatever community they are from is concerned about the humanitarian and human cost of this. And so the international community is attempting to drive this toward an a final lynching. And when that becomes a sensible thing to do, there should be a final lynching. And then Canada should be involved in the humanitarian and medical attempts to rebuild some shattered lives and return slaves to their rightful owners.
Candian Jewish News gives us a Q&A from Ignasty:
http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16140&Itemid=86
After reading that, I wondered, what would Ignasty have said if was alive in 1830s when Nat Turner led the one and only slave rebellion? In the aftermatch of the rebellion, the State of Virginia executed 50 slaves and 200 others were killed by whites seeking vengeance.
I thought what if Ignasty gave an interview to the Canadian White News?
CWN: The state is blaming Nat Turner for all of this. What's your position? How do you respond to that?
Ignasty: Nat Turner is a terrorist and Canada can't touch him with a 10-foot pole. Turner is to blame for organizing, instigating this rebellion, and then for sheltering among the slave population. And Virginia is justified in continuing rounding up and lynching these slaves. But every Canadian, whatever community they are from is concerned about the humanitarian and human cost of this. And so the international community is attempting to drive this toward an a final lynching. And when that becomes a sensible thing to do, there should be a final lynching. And then Canada should be involved in the humanitarian and medical attempts to rebuild some shattered lives and return slaves to their rightful owners.
This reminds me of what Uri Avnery wrote during the Gaza invasion:
Nearly seventy ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called “the Red Army” held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.
Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.
This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.
YOu don't have to go that far - that is how history describes the bombing of Cologne and Hamburg etc...
Un oh... support from Stockholm... the Kiss of Death!
Worse than that, Ignasty thinks he must pander to the worst human instincts in order to win the Jewish vote. It would suggest he holds a low opinion of the Jewish community.
The same can be said of Stephen Harper.
Of course there is a such thing. Just ask Peter Kent why he won Thornhill.
Note that this synagogue is in the riding of St. Pauls. The Libs may be fearing that Thornhill is just the beginning in terms of losing ridings with large Jewish populations. If they can dump the Libs in Thornhill, they can do it in St. Pauls, Eglinton-Lawrence, etc. as well. An acquaintance of mine - I don't have "friends" who are that wealthy - who lives in Forest Hill used to vote Liberal but now votes Tory because of Israel.
St. Paul's? Not a chance.
Dr. Bennett has regularly won the riding by a margin of more than 10,000 votes (and an outright majority).
Any reference to there being such a thing as a "Jewish vote" is anti-semitic. Jewish-Canadians vote for all different parties all across the political spectrum.
Just as talking about the "black vote" in the United States is racist.
It is racist to refer to there being a "black vote" - though exit polls do show that Obama got something like 97% of the vote among African Americans. Jewish-Canadians are no where near as monolithic in their voting behaviour and tend to divide their votes all over the map.
But if you are going use the deflection tactic of calling any reference to demographic Jewish voting patterns as "antisemic", I hope you write to these guys and let them know it is you calling them "antisemites":
"Can the Liberals Count On the Jewish Vote"
http://www.jewishtoronto.net/page.aspx?id=42449
I agree with you. That is why I think Ignasty is playing to stereotypes of Jews, anti-semitism if you like, by believing he can win the "Jewish vote" by pandering to those who gleefully support Israel's war crimes and oppression of Palestinians. Which is why I think he is man without morals and principles. I don't think the same is true of Harper. I think Harper is a genuine Christian Zionist who looks forward to the day when Christ returns and Jews are tossed into the pool of fire.
I do not know why the left insists on coming down on Hamas's side ALL the time.
I am pretty sure that if I had home made rockets raining down on me every other day for a couple of years, I would get fed up of it too. Wouldn't you?
And the appropriate response? Fire home made rockets back?
Nope. turn the other cheek? Nope.
If a guy with a club keeps attacking a guy with a gun, what will happen eventually? Either the guy with the club gets shot or the guy with the club gets committed for madness or the guy with the gun lays down his gun and gets clubbed to death..
What would I do? What would you do? There are no easy answers.
I know it is a christain thing to hate the jews but having such a one sided view of things is not helping.
There is no shortage of Jews outside israel who disagree with what Israel is doing. (But they all get lumped in together). Back in ireland, we had 3 jews in parliament in the early 80's One fianna fail (center party) one fine gael (right wing) and one labour. If Jews are such a tiny percentage of the voting public, why so much verbage about them here in the wrong forum?
There are probably lots of people in Palastine who are not happy with hamas either. At this stage everyone knows what happens when rockets gets lobbed into Israel.
And why is this thread in Canadian politics anyway?
Shouldn't it be in the racism forum?
In one Montreal riding with a large Jewish community, Outremont, all you note is the small turnout in the advance polls. From this, you surmise that the large chassidic community didn’t bother to vote. Even is this is so, this means they didn’t feel the need to vote against Thomas Mulcair, the first New Democrat to win in Quebec in a federal general election.
Furthermore, you neglected to cover the results in my riding of Trinity-Spadina in Toronto, which is also the home of the Miles Nadal Jewish Community Centre. Here, incumbent New Democrat Olivia Chow won re-election over the Liberal party’s Christine Innes, with the Conservative Party of Canada coming in a distinct third.
By such omission you distort the truth. There is strong support for all major parties in the Canadian Jewish community. That includes the NDP.
David Orenstein
Toronto
I do not know why the left insists on coming down on Hamas's side ALL the time.
Gee, Brian, never thought I'd say it, but you are full of shit. Let me ask you, why do you come down on the side of the murderous Israelis?
I am pretty sure that if I had home made rockets raining down on me every other day for a couple of years, I would get fed up of it too. Wouldn't you?
That's terrific. But being dispossed, starved, and having your parents humiliated or your children murdered in front of you, you'd be okay with that? That wouldn't cause you to question your Christian "turn the other cheek" beliefs? You'd just know better than to want to hurt the brutal fuckers doing this to you, right? How mighty white of you.
I know it is a christain thing to hate the jews but having such a one sided view of things is not helping.
That's what it is hating Jews? It can't be sympathy with a brutalized and dispossed people? It can't be hatred of oppression and injustice? It can't be recognition that a modern military machine should never be turned against civilians? It can't be any of that? It must be Jew hating?
There is no shortage of Jews outside israel who disagree with what Israel is doing. (But they all get lumped in together). Back in ireland, we had 3 jews in parliament in the early 80's One fianna fail (center party) one fine gael (right wing) and one labour. If Jews are such a tiny percentage of the voting public, why so much verbage about them here in the wrong forum?
It isn't about Jews. It is about oppression and violence against a dispossed people. It is about colonialism. If you were Irish you might understand that. It is you who is making it about Jews.
I've lost a lot of respect for you just now.
I'm no Christian and just want to voice my concern for the humans in the Gaza Strip.
I agree. Its not really about the so-called Jewish vote (not that there is even such a thing). Jews are less than 1% of the population of Canada and winning a bigger share of the vote among Canadians Jews might help the Liberals win back Thornhill and that's about it.
I guess your motto in life is do as I say, not as I do. You say there's no such thing as a "Jewish vote" and then you say Iggy's stance is likely to increase the proportion of the Jewish community voting Liberal (which is the same thing, just expressed less crudely). Funny I remember how you actually started a thread here saying how the US "Jewish vote" went to Obama - do you regret posting that "anti-Semitic" thread now? I also recall posts of yours saying how Canadian Jews were so ultra-liberal and would never vote Tory and how out of sync the Aspers and David Frum are, but then most of their votes went Tory in the last election (that's why Peter Kent won Thornhill, the riding where most of Toronto's Jewish community lives). I'm afraid you were wrong.
In a bunch of the advanced polls in Thornhill (the highest advanced poll turnout in the province - something like 20% of all votes there were advanced polls) Kent got something like 75% of the vote.
Calling Qana a war crime was the most honourable thing Iggy ever did - and that's why he's been backtracking ever since. OK he also wrote a good biography of Isiah Berlin.
Just as talking about the "black vote" in the United States is racist.
Well then I guess I am racist, too, for sometimes citing African-American incarceration rates, African-American unemployment rates, and African-American infant mortality, and for discriminating between native-American and white figures for same statistics. We can be sure that the rightwing politicos in the US would love nothing better than for racist statistics like those be blended in, and thereby hidden amongst those of the overall cultural melting pot down thataway. Who knew that eliminating racism is as easy as averaging things out a little better?
That's a great point, Fidel. That's why rightwingers nowadays like to talk about being "colour-blind" and even thinking they're living up to MLK's legacy.
Whatever. Hamas has a stated aim to destroy Israel.
And thats a declaration of war. If the us government stated that their aim was to destroy Canada, what would you do? Roll over and play dead? I guessso.
I am happy to support kosovo and bosnia, They are not trying to exterminate another nation. The jews have as much right to be there as the christians and muslems, and they have plenty of experience of christian and muslem kindness. (I mean the state invoked exterminations) and thats why they feel the need to have a state.
I do not see anything about dafur in the canadian politics forum. Why not? Maybe because it has no place in this forum? Or about the kurds?
If you guys need someone to argue your case, there is a lawyer of like mind here in vic. Doug Christie.
I do not know why the left insists on coming down on Hamas's side ALL the time.
Gee, Brian, never thought I'd say it, but you are full of shit. Let me ask you, why do you come down on the side of the murderous Israelis?
I am pretty sure that if I had home made rockets raining down on me every other day for a couple of years, I would get fed up of it too. Wouldn't you?
That's terrific. But being dispossed, starved, and having your parents humiliated or your children murdered in front of you, you'd be okay with that? That wouldn't cause you to question your Christian "turn the other cheek" beliefs? You'd just know better than to want to hurt the brutal fuckers doing this to you, right? How mighty white of you.
I know it is a christain thing to hate the jews but having such a one sided view of things is not helping.
That's what it is hating Jews? It can't be sympathy with a brutalized and dispossed people? It can't be hatred of oppression and injustice? It can't be recognition that a modern military machine should never be turned against civilians? It can't be any of that? It must be Jew hating?
There is no shortage of Jews outside israel who disagree with what Israel is doing. (But they all get lumped in together). Back in ireland, we had 3 jews in parliament in the early 80's One fianna fail (center party) one fine gael (right wing) and one labour. If Jews are such a tiny percentage of the voting public, why so much verbage about them here in the wrong forum?
It isn't about Jews. It is about oppression and violence against a dispossed people. It is about colonialism. If you were Irish you might understand that. It is you who is making it about Jews.
I've lost a lot of respect for you just now.
Hey Brian, "Hamas" is not the logical equivalent of "Kosovo." The logical equivalent of Kosovo is Palestine. The logical equivalent of Hamas would be the KLA (no band of angels themselves).
"The left" (whatever that is) does not "come down on Hamas' side" -- it may be that a lot of people on the left do come down on the side of the victims of murderous assaults on civilians.
I'd hazard a guess that the thread is in Canadian politics, because it's about Michael Ignatieff's stance. You can tell the guy once had human-rights instincts despite all his shilling for war -- he knew Israel was committing war crimes and let that opinion slip out. Now, not so much. I'd bet he still knows it's war crimes, but he's decided that "the greater good" requires making him PM and he'll have to lie to get there. It'd be tragic if it wasn't so disgusting.
I was not aware that the KLA calls for the distruction of Serbia and that they are launching home made missles into Serbia.
I stand corrected.
And no one said the KLA did.
It's just that the KLA, like Hamas, is an organization.
Kosovo, like Palestine, is a nation.
If you talk about Hamas and Kosovo in comparative terms, you're comparing apples and artichokes.
Brian then what is the stand of zionism? How would you define that? The differance is one has it in it's constitution and doesn't act on it, while the other acts on it even though it doesn't state it on paper. I would say one is far worse than the other. Hell we have a bylaw that says you can't have a horse at the supermarket, do you think anyone ever acts on it?
Oh I forgot homemade missles are so much more dangerous than radiation poisoning the next 3 generations from GUNSHIPS and TANKS. You want to look at the kill ratios, or even the injury ratios. I can't wait to see the malformed kids in the next 20 years, luckily for them they won't be able to run away from the white phosphorous rounds, as their feet will be sideways and tumor riddled.
One fianna fail (center party) one fine gael (right wing) and one labour.
Totally off-topic -- but Brian, is this a typo? Fine Gael hasn't been to the right of Fianna Fail since the 1940s. Certainly not in the 80s under Fitzgerald, and certainly not today.
No, but it was implied that that hamas and the KLA are similar organizations. They are not.
Hamas calls for and actively trys to bring about the total destruction of israel. They are not stopping today tomorrow or in 10 years time.
If you wish to call it ethnic cleansing, go for it. It is not a policy than I can accept.
The KLA is not calling for the destruction of serbia.
You are also doing the apples and artichokes thing.
In a bunch of the advanced polls in Thornhill (the highest advanced poll turnout in the province - something like 20% of all votes there were advanced polls) Kent got something like 75% of the vote.
I'm sure these were Orthodox Jews voting in the advanced polls. That is a pretty distinctive demographic that supports the most pro-Israel party on the ballot, the war in Afghanistan, funding for religious schools, etc.
Lord Palmerston: "I'm sure these were Orthodox Jews voting in the advanced polls"
Funny, when Mr. Parizeau commented on the latest referendum result by alluding it to such distinctions, he was lambasted and treated as some kind of a fascist.
Are you implying my post was anti-Semitic? The election was held on Sukkot, which means orthodox Jews had to vote in advanced polls. That's why Thornhill had such a high turnout in the advanced polls.
Hamas calls for and actively trys to bring about the total destruction of israel. They are not stopping today tomorrow or in 10 years time.
If you wish to call it ethnic cleansing, go for it. It is not a policy than I can accept.
Again, how very white of you Brian. Israel is actively engaged in the total destruction of Palestine and Palestinians and they have not stopped in 10, 20, or 60 years time. And, yes, it is ethnic cleansing. To speed up the process, you might have missed it, they employed F15s, attack helicopters, tanks, artillery, gun boats, and white phosphorous against a civilian population.
So you tell me why, in your mind Brian, your sympathy lies with racist colonizers actively engaged in the crimes you claim Hamas only aspires too and not the victims of that racist aggression?
I think people are missing the obvious.
Jews may very well only be 1% of the population, but they have a much greater influence.
Shortly after Ignatieff's war crimes comment, two prominent Israel supporters - Reisman (of famed bookstore monopilization) and Shwartz (billionaire responsible for multiple monoplies) decided to switch their allegiance and funding to the Conservatives.
The Pro-Israel Jewish lobby is one of the most powerful "PAC's" in Canada, and their support can easily influence the outcome of an election.