Jagmeet Singh, NDP Leader

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Rev Pesky

From Sean in Ottawa:

Back then the Liberals and provincial NDP in Alberta could have made the case for a national significant investment in BC to move away from dependency on exporting raw fossil fuels... 

To what?

6079_Smith_W

Another thing is, B.C. has actually increased its fossil fuel exports as U.S. ports have taken the principled stand of reducing their coal exports.

Controversially, almost all of this thermal coal is coming from the United States. As lawmakers in Washington and Oregon have begun shutting down their own coal ports due to environmental concerns, thermal coal producers in Wyoming and Montana have simply diverted their product through Canada.

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/yes-anti-pipeline-vancouver-really...

Sean in Ottawa

Rev Pesky wrote:

From Sean in Ottawa:

Back then the Liberals and provincial NDP in Alberta could have made the case for a national significant investment in BC to move away from dependency on exporting raw fossil fuels... 

To what?

Some kind of industrial replacement to the value of fossil fuels. I actually thought that this might have been possible back in 2015 but it never materialized.

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

- The Liberals will build the pipeline if they can or it will fail through no fault of their own

- Horgan will fight as much as he can in a losing battle, needing to show the good fight, and that might work

- Notley will get the pipeline and this may or may not save her but it will not hurt her

The pipeline is far from inevitable. Indigenous court cases are still in process. 

While there has been a great deal of bluster no action has been taken yet nor is the federal government making public threats. Only Alberta is doing that. 

The federal government will not withhold unrelated federal program funds because that really would cause a constitutional crisis. 

The rule of law and democracy have both been upheld not undermined. 

Even once all legal avenues have been exhausted protesters will still physically stand in the way. That is the final showdown. How many thousands of people is the government willing to have arrested? Are they really willing to live with the optics of Canada's army in a showdown with indigenous peoples on unceded territory? 

We are not at a constitution crisis now. We may well be if the army is used to force the pipeline across BC. 

Trudeau insists the project is in the national interest but I don't agree. I think it is in Alberta's interest. In so far as Alberta is a Canadian province of course it impacts our economy but we are not shutting down the oil sands.

By claiming it is in the national interests Trudeau aims to get cross Canada support but I don't think he will get it. Some provinces will be watching and thinking about their own ability to reject projects they consider a threat, such as Energy East. 

The federal government may have the legal power to demand right of way for the pipeline but this is a democracy. Mass civil disobedience works. Occupy took over public parks and even hooked into the electrical system. The government gets away with a lot because people aren't watching or don't get all the ins and outs. People would be watching physical showdowns between protesters, including indigenous peoples, and security forces, on unceded territory. I don't think Trudeau has the stomach for that. I don't think even Harper would. With social media images would be up in real time. 

All this furious stamping of feet followed by private negotiations tells me there is little action they can actually take to pressure Horgan to withdraw his opposition to the pipeline. It's non-negotiable because the reason for opposition is the potential for catastrophic failure with no guarantee of full recovery and limited liability on the part of the oil industry. If it's so damn safe why can't they get insurance? 

Anything can happen but my money is on a win for the opponents. This may just be a pressure tactic on the part of Kinder Morgan but it still shows a willingness to walk away soon if it doesn't get going. They seem to have been working on the assumption that they would win the court cases. Or maybe they are just looking for an excuse to walk away. 

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Another thing is, B.C. has actually increased its fossil fuel exports as U.S. ports have taken the principled stand of reducing their coal exports.

Controversially, almost all of this thermal coal is coming from the United States. As lawmakers in Washington and Oregon have begun shutting down their own coal ports due to environmental concerns, thermal coal producers in Wyoming and Montana have simply diverted their product through Canada.

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/yes-anti-pipeline-vancouver-really...

Coal doesn't leak. It isn't as volatile. Much of the backing does come from people who are concerned about climate change but that is not the issue for BC communities and FNs. Their greatest concern is their immediate environment. That isn't threatened by coal. It is threatened by oil. 

6079_Smith_W

Of course it doesn't.

But this isn't just a case of coal being safer. One of the biggest charges levelled at the tar sands is that they are so dirty, and coal is far moreso. And this is also a jurisdiction - Vancouver - taking action against climate change on the one hand, but with the other profitting because of other ports closing their doors to coal.

And the bottom line is that no, they aren't reducing those exports. They are the biggest exporter of coal in North America.

 

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Of course it doesn't.

But this isn't just a case of coal being safer. One of the biggest charges levelled at the tar sands is that they are so dirty, and coal is far moreso. And this is also a jurisdiction - Vancouver - taking action against climate change on the one hand, but with the other profitting because of other ports closing their doors to coal.

And the bottom line is that no, they aren't reducing those exports. They are the biggest exporter of coal in North America.

None of which has anything to do with the pipelines. So they are hypocrites on climate change. What's your point? 

6079_Smith_W

Well this thread isn't about pipelines either, so I don't think that puts me off-topic.

You read Sean's post at #651; you quoted from it. I was actually commenting in line with some of his points about parties acting in their own interest. If there is any example of that stronger than the approval of Site C, it is B.C. profitting off of American ports' decision to oppose coal exports.

As for coal not being an issue because it doesn't spill like oil, that is just an even starker example of kicking a bigger problem down the road and hoping no one will notice:

Coal is the single biggest contributor to anthropogenic climate change. The burning of coal is responsible for 46% of carbon dioxide emissions worldwide and accounts for 72% of total  greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from the electricity sector. If plans to build up to 1200 new coal fired power stations around the world are realized, the greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) from these plants would put us on a path towards catastrophic climate change, causing global temperatures to rise by over five degrees Celsius by 2100. This will have dire impacts for all life on earth.

https://endcoal.org/climate-change/

Coal might not be quite as sexy an issue as oil, but it is a far bigger problem. It is the biggest source of Saskatchewan's record carbon footprint. And B.C. is continuing to profit off it just as Alberta is with the tar sands. At the same time they pride themselves on standing up to pipelines because that will dirty up their backyard.

 

 

 

Pondering

Rev Pesky wrote:

From Pondering:

If that is so the Supreme Court should decide very quickly. If the feds don't act BC could take months just to formulate the question.

I'm not sure how having the Supreme Court reiterate that pipelines are federal jusidiction would change things. BC is not challenging federal jurisdiction, they are challenging some aspects of the construction of the pipeline. They would continue to do that no matter what.

If BC would agree beforehand that they would end their opposition to the pipeline if the Supreme Court said pipelines were federal jurisdiction, then there may be a point in doing it. Otherwise it's just a useless waste of time. 

The question BC will be referring to the Supreme Court will be based on the province's jurisdiction on the environment and health and safety, not pipelines in particular. That is, the question will apply equally to trains transporting dangerous goods. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
That is, the question will apply equally to trains transporting dangerous goods.

Trucks too?

If they end up having to say "we don't want ANY hazardous stuff going on" that could get interesting.

NorthReport

I thhink Singh should run for a seat soon not necessarily Outremont but run for a seat he should Hebert’s article though is a bit over the top

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/04/13/running-in-quebecs-outremont-would-be-a-risky-move-for-ndp-leader-jagmeet-singh.html

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Rev Pesky wrote:

From Pondering:

If that is so the Supreme Court should decide very quickly. If the feds don't act BC could take months just to formulate the question.

I'm not sure how having the Supreme Court reiterate that pipelines are federal jusidiction would change things. BC is not challenging federal jurisdiction, they are challenging some aspects of the construction of the pipeline. They would continue to do that no matter what.

If BC would agree beforehand that they would end their opposition to the pipeline if the Supreme Court said pipelines were federal jurisdiction, then there may be a point in doing it. Otherwise it's just a useless waste of time. 

The question BC will be referring to the Supreme Court will be based on the province's jurisdiction on the environment and health and safety, not pipelines in particular. That is, the question will apply equally to trains transporting dangerous goods. 

Is there a question regarding Indigenous lands?

I don't think the Province can win on this question. Risk benefit judgement woudl be the Feds. The Province likely woudl be able to bring measures for details of regulation provided they not negate the Federal decision.

NorthReport

Jagmeet Singh and Andrea Horwath swap NDP roles

 

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/05/15/jagmeet-singh...

NorthReport

Jagmeet Singh can rebound, but has a lot of work to do

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/kurl-jagmeet-singh-can-rebou...

NorthReport

Great interview with Michael Enright this morning. If Singh means what he says the NDP will be doing much better than most people expect in the next election 

NDPP

Why then is this great man suppressing BDS resolutions within his party and tacitly supporting the outrageous full-court Canadian press against Venezuela? NDP=No Difference Party.

Rev Pesky

From the Ottawa Citizen article posted above:

NDP voters today are much softer than those choosing the Liberal or Conservative party. Fewer than three in 10 (28 per cent) of NDP voters say they’re “very certain” of their support. Compare this with more than 40 per cent of those supporting the Liberals, and more than half (54 per cent) of intended Conservatives. 

Forget the Liberals for the moment. Just look at the difference between the committed vote of the NDP compared to the committed vote of the Conservatives. The Tory's solid base is double, percentage-wise.

What the NDP has to work on is not just gathering votes, but gathering 'committed' votes. So far it looks to be more or less of a failure.

NorthReport

If that CBC interview this morning is any indication, Singh appears to be on track to do much better than most people expect in the 2019 election. 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

NorthReport wrote:

I thhink Singh should run for a seat soon not necessarily Outremont but run for a seat he should Hebert’s article though is a bit over the top

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/04/13/running-in-quebecs-outremont-would-be-a-risky-move-for-ndp-leader-jagmeet-singh.html

Let him run in Outremont and watch him handily defeated by the Liberal candidate. Not the right riding for Singh. And if he does and is defeated,how can he continue to lead the NDP? It's becoming too late to replace Singh with a new leader.

Forget about Outremont. It's not the right fit and the likelyhood of him winning that riding is slim to none. At this point he may become a leader of a major party who is seatless when the election begins. I'm not sure how that would work. 

NorthReport

If his CBC interview this morning is any indication Singh is going to be fine.

How many elections did Layton run in with poor NDP showings before 2011? 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Singh is going to be fine. How many elections did Layton run in with poor NDP showings before 2011? 

Singh isn't from Quebec. That alone will make winning Outremont impossible. Isn't he from Scarborough? Why doesn't he run there? He could take out the incumbent and if the MP representing Scarborough is a New Democrat,he or she could step aside for Singh.

Bottom line is he doesn't stand a chance in hell of winning Outremont. He's going to have to look harder and look in a more plausible riding. It may take an incumbent New Democrat to step aside so he can run in a safe riding. Problem is,New Democrats are no different than the Cons and the Libs when it comes to holding onto their jobs. To hell with the greater good of the party,I want my pension. 

Mighty Middle

A new website http://www.calculatedpolitics.com has been created for the 2019 federal election run by two guys with polling experience (one of whom has ties to the NDP having been VP of the NDP Hull—Aylmer riding association.

The other riding that is opening up by the departure of Kennedy Stewart, Burnaby South, is currently leaning Liberal (according to their data)

and Outremont is expected to go Liberal as well (according to their data)

NorthReport

How quickly we forget!

It was not that long ago that posters here wanted to write off Andrea Horwath, eh, and now she has the momentum and today is drawing her biggest crowd of the campaign so far this election.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

He's not winning Outremont. There is no correlation between Horwath's NDP winning the Ontario election and Singh winning Outremont. To believe that you'd have to be smoking some powerful banana peels.

Mighty Middle

According  to http://www.calculatedpolitics.com right now in the Ontario election 4 out of the 5 Brampton seats are leaning NDP. Will that support spill over into  the Federal election in 2019?

robbie_dee

I guess a strong provincial NDP performance in Ontario, particularly if they hold or make gains in the Brampton area, would provide a further argument for Jagmeet to refrain from seeking a parliamentary seat until the next federal election, on the grounds that he would have such a good shot in his home riding that it is both an unneccesary risk and a waste of resources for him to try to win elsewhere in the meantime. On the other hand (1) even if the Ontario provincial election goes really well for the Ontario NDP there is no guarantee that result will translate into federal gains a year later and (2) it does seem like Jagmeet is having real problems maintaining his hold on caucus right now while he is not a member of it. An NDP sweep of Brampton would help Jagmeet immensely, but I'm not sure it would kill the byelection speculation all together - nor should it.

 I agree with Alan Smithee that Jagmeet running in Outremont would probably be a bad idea. It's the kind of thing he would do if he was actually looking for a way out of his current job (e.g. if he's got an appointment coming to him from incoming premier Horwath). Even then, if the NDP can't scare up a reasonably good candidate from Quebec to run there, and instead decides to burn its leader, the federal party is in even worse shape than I thought. If all Jagmeet wants to do is run in and lose a byelection, he might as well run in Leeds-Grenville-Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes. That way he could at least lose in Ontario.

I think Jagmeet running in Outremont (or any other current prospects, with one exception) is extremely unlikely. Burnaby South, however, is potentially promising if Jagmeet does decide he needs to enter Parliament sooner than next fall. It's far from a cakewalk but it has a much longer-standing NDP history than Outremont and a large South Asian (though not necessarily Sikh/Punjabi) population that could rally around Jagmeet and welcome him despite his non-local status. Further, with respect to the Ontario NDP's performance, there could even be a halo effect for the NDP on the west coast if there is a byelection there within a few months of a ONDP victory. There is some evidence that momentum from Rae's shock 1990 victory in Ontario helped lift Doer's Manitoba NDP from third place back into second in the provincial election that happened five days later, as well as helping propel the march to victory by Harcourt's BC NDP and Romanow's SK NDP the next year.

On the other hand if Jagmeet does take the plunge in Burnaby of course the other parties will try hard to punch the NDP in the nose by running strong candidates against him, so it's still far from a sure thing. More importantly, so long as the standoff continues between the B.C. and Alberta NDP governments over TMX, Jagmeet is going to continue to be wedged between their two opposing positions. The pipeline will be a big issue in Burnaby South (the previous NDP MP was just convicted of criminal contempt for his role in protesting it). While it seems Jagmeet has already made the decision to largely back the BC NDP's position, therefore likely burning his bridges in Alberta, if he is forced to actually campaign on this issue he can only further exacerbate the split and that's probably not in the long term interest of the federal party.

So obviously he's got a lot to think about.

NorthReport

With BC, Alberta, and now possibly Ontario having NDP governments, the stars could be aligning well for the Singh-led federal NDP.

NorthReport
Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
More Ruth Ellen Brosseaus, please

Huh.  That kills two birds with one stone.

1.  The assumption that you need to be rich, white, old or priveleged (preferably all four!) to be able to succeed in politics.

2.  The assumption that the Globe just has it in for the left, every day in every way.

Go, REB!  I didn't think she was leadership-ready (yet), but I always liked her and her story.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..a canadian dimension editorial.

NDP falls far short of needed leap to the left

Canadians hoping to see bold ideas and a more radical orientation emerge from the federal New Democrats’ February convention in Ottawa are surely feeling disappointed. Four months after Jagmeet Singh’s first ballot victory, a party still struggling to regain its balance following electoral demolition in 2015 again failed to capitalize on a historic opportunity to distance itself from and challenge the Liberals with a transformative left-wing vision.

While the convention saw Singh endorse progressive policies, including publicly-funded infrastructure, tax reform and paid sick leave, he didn’t take the “big ideas” far enough. Ultimately, the party sided with a “less timid” (Singh’s words) form of centrism divorced from the demands of systemic economic and social change.

This is all the more frustrating considering the appetite for more far-reaching social change is palpable and growing. Polls released in January by Nanos and the Institute for Research on Public Policy reveal that more Canadians than ever dislike the Liberal government. In fact, Justin Trudeau’s approval ratings are nearly identical to those of Stephen Harper before the last election.

quote:

Yet it was little more than little steps that the NDP offered up in February, positioning itself less as a viable Left alternative to the Liberals and more as a meek tweak on many of the current government’s policy pillars. Even one of the NDP’s braver proposals, a national pharmacare program, is already slated for adoption by the Liberal Party in advance of the 2019 election.

Perhaps most tellingly, an opportunity to outflank Trudeau on the fight against climate change and in efforts towards reconciliation with Indigenous peoples by adopting the Leap Manifesto was squandered for a second time (it had been rejected once before at the party’s policy convention in 2016).

Meanwhile, the night before the convention, 500 youthful activists attended a rally organized by Courage to Leap. Scarcely 100 of them were NDP delegates — a telling indication that young radicals either do not see the NDP as a likely vehicle for social change or eschew parliamentary politics altogether.

Of course, it would be unfair to characterize the convention as wholly unsuccessful. It was significant that Singh spoke to the party’s social democratic heritage when he called for expanded health care, closing tax loopholes, building affordable housing, and bolstering environmental stewardship. But he fell sadly short on other issues, notably energy and foreign policy.

The convention saw not a single anti-pipeline resolution, and on the subject of Palestine, often a sore spot for party members, tensions raged over a resolution aimed at putting diplomatic and economic pressure on Israel to end the Occupation. The resolution was ultimately defeated.

As Andrew Mitrovica wrote in Al Jazeera, “for Canada’s pretend socialist party, its supposed ‘values’ are all too malleable and, as such, human rights for Palestinians appear to be an optional extra and are indeed deployed selectively.”

NorthReport

Jagmeet Singh must be very pleased with the latest polling results in Ontario.

If the ONDP does well on June 7, it may auger well for Jagmeet's federal election campaign next year. 

If the ONDP wins the Ontario election on June 7, the NDP will be governing provincially more than 50% of the Canadian population.

josh

Federal NDP has been too busy purging one of its members, and making excuses for another, to worry about which direction it’s heading.

brookmere

NorthReport wrote:
If the ONDP wins the Ontario election on June 7, the NDP will be governing provincially more than 50% of the Canadian population.

I remember that was the subject of a cover story in Maclean's around 1991 or so. You might recall what happened in the next Federal election. NDP provincial governments have not been good for the federal party historically.

NorthReport

I’m wondering if we are going to have a realignment in Canadian politics as voters don’t seem very supportive of any of our political parties these days

NorthReport

NDP leader Jagmeet Singh sides with B.C. over Alberta in Trans Mountain dispute

https://globalnews.ca/news/4227693/jagmeet-singh-trans-mountain-bc/

NorthReport

Remember not that long ago about how there was a feeding frenzy about how Andrew Horwath had to go, and now voters in Ontario are giving serious consideration to making her their Premier. 

Kind of reminds me of all the nonsense presently surrounding Jagmeet. It too will pass, and I have high expectations for the NDP in the next federal election

josh

Why?  Have the Liberals been in power for 15 years with an incredibly unpopular PM?

NorthReport
robbie_dee

NorthReport wrote:

Remember not that long ago about how there was a feeding frenzy about how Andrew Horwath had to go, and now voters in Ontario are giving serious consideration to making her their Premier. 

Kind of reminds me of all the nonsense presently surrounding Jagmeet. It too will pass, and I have high expectations for the NDP in the next federal election

Horwath deserves full credit for capitalizing on an incredible political opportunity. I was one of the people who said she should have resigned after 2014 and I am happy to eat my words now. I think she made mistakes in 2014 but she has turned things around incredibly since then, and in fact she is probably way better situated than many other potential contenders to replace her would have been to take advantage of the Ontario Liberals' and PC's recent failures.

That being said, she is still damn lucky. If Patrick Brown had not been toppled, or for that matter if the Tories had replaced him with Fedeli, Elliott, Mulroney or pretty much any other name from the phone book besides "Doug Ford", Horwath would at best be auditioning for official opposition leader right now. For that matter, if Kathleen Wynne had resigned a year ago the Liberals might have even managed to execute another reboot with a new leader with the NDP relegated to its traditional third place position.

I agree with Josh that these conditions are unlikely to replicate themselves federally next year. Moreover, the history has been that strong provincial NDP performances have correlated with a weak federal NDP. A lot of people think a U.S. recession is coming and the only question is when. A U.S. recession would almost certainly have a negative effect on the Canadian economy. If that happens before the 2019 election, Trudeau would wear it of course but likely so would a new and untested Ontario NDP government. That's not to say Jagmeet is doomed - good things could happen in the next year instead of bad things. While his first few months' tenure has been rocky I have been getting the feeling that he might have hit bottom now and could start turning things around.

North Report, the last article you linked about Jagmeet throwing his lot in fully with Horgan's position on TMX makes me think he is probably going to run in the Burnaby South byelection. If it works out, that could well be the start of his comeback. It's a still a risk though.

NorthReport

I like Don Davies comments here

https://mobile.twitter.com/Tom_Parkin_

Debater

Rev Pesky wrote:

From the Ottawa Citizen article posted above:

NDP voters today are much softer than those choosing the Liberal or Conservative party. Fewer than three in 10 (28 per cent) of NDP voters say they’re “very certain” of their support. Compare this with more than 40 per cent of those supporting the Liberals, and more than half (54 per cent) of intended Conservatives. 

Forget the Liberals for the moment. Just look at the difference between the committed vote of the NDP compared to the committed vote of the Conservatives. The Tory's solid base is double, percentage-wise.

What the NDP has to work on is not just gathering votes, but gathering 'committed' votes. So far it looks to be more or less of a failure.

Yes, there's a very solid committed Conservative core vote in this country.

Canada is more Conservative than we sometimes think, unfortunately.

Canada is not as right-wing as the United States, but it is not as progressive as Europe or Scandinavia.

At least one-third of Canadians always support the Conservatives (sometimes more).  And now that the right is united, the Conservatives have the ability to win in 2019.

NorthReport

The more I see of Singh the more I am liking him. And if the Trudeau Liberals falter, and presently they sure are wobbling, progressives may be turning to Singh to stop the Conservatives in next year's election.

Jagmeet Singh Says Opposition To Trans Mountain Has Nothing To Do With Upcoming B.C. Byelection

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/05/23/jagmeet-singh-trans-mountain-bc...

NorthReport
Coldwell Coldwell's picture

Posted elsewhere

R.E.Wood

Regarding the Chicoutimi-Le Fjord by-election, the NDP is reduced (alongside the Bloc) to a passing reference noting the collapse of its vote, and a brief mention at the end of the article:

Monday's result is more dismal news for NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh, whose efforts to re-ignite the party have shown no discernible results so far.

And it doesn't bode well for the NDP in another imminent Quebec byelection once Singh's predecessor, Tom Mulcair, resigns his Montreal seat of Outremont later this month.

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2018/06/18/tories-take-commanding-byel...

NorthReport

Singh disappointed by NDP collapse in Quebec byelection

Jagmeet Singh

NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh speaks to reporters in the in the Foyer of the House of Commons on Parliament Hill in Ottawa on Tuesday, June 19, 2018. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Justin Tang

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/singh-disappointed-by-ndp-collapse-in-qu...

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Singh should go.  He's had his chance and we now know that there's nothing he can possibly do or say that will help the party at all.  He has failed.

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

Singh should go.  He's had his chance and we now know that there's nothing he can possibly do or say that will help the party at all.  He has failed.

How do you see that happening?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

He'd just resign and then a second leadership vote would be held.  In that second vote, in the name of avoiding any bad blood from the previous contest, I'd argue for a rule that none of the candidates in the last leadership contest could run again.   Hold the vote in November...that would be more than enough time.

Don't like it that it's come to this, but if the party hasn't come close to winning ANY byelections under Singh yet, what chance does it have of even holding on to its current seat count, let along making gains?  And what chance does it have of holding any seats in Quebec?  If the party gets wiped out in Quebec, any gains elsewhere are useless and meaningless, since the NDP can never move past where it is now if it goes back to being unrepresented in Quebec again. If nothing Singh has done has made any positive difference yet, there's no chance anything he could do between now and the election could do so.   

The choice is now clear...a leadership change, or the party gets reduced to 20 seats or less in 2019, all from Ontario, the Prairies and B.C.  At that point it might as well be time to disband the party and try something else.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Well, the NDP will always be the "conscience of parliament" even if they go to 10 seats. Every silver lining has a cloud.

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