Jack Layton does "Let's Make a Deal"

It is called positioning. 

ETA

By the way your title is way off.

i i know i need an election, i could make some badly needed extra money..

Arthur this message is directed at the non-political.  People are sick to the hilt of political game playing.  By laying out some very straightforward issues with doable solutions Layton is showing that he is an honest broker focused on tangible items that most people would support.  It makes the Cons look obstructionist and uncaring.  As I said in one of the other many threads were this issue has been discussed this time out Layton is playing it just about right.

He is saying the right thing because the media is going after him. Evan and his right wing stooges and liza frulla the full on liberal, have been lambasting the ndp for 2 weeks now on this saying how the NDP will cave. I see very little posibility the Harperites would even bother with concessions.

Its funny because they(MSM) always hold the NDP to a differnet standard. Did they do the same thing to iggy? Nope. They never even followed up on his one and only concession to passing the 2009 budget, and that was the 1/4ley reports that harper never gave out. WHy? Well because it serves their interests for canadians to not know. Iggy is nothing more than a neo con so they are happy playing the 2 horse race bullshit. The fact the NDP haven't fallen off the map to 93 levels says they have failed to split the vote even with the fear and rampant lies and distortions about current policy and that of the opposition parties.

I watch Laurie Hawn just make a disgrace of himself by being rude, continues interupting and in the back ground such BS words as "none sense, thats not true, you are wrong" when anyone else speaks. Yet their supporters cling to these incometant morons(Did you know our defence minister thinks BC borders california-arnold had to correct him) so i can only say bullshit baffles brains.

Ok, I get this. Thanks to everyone. Not trying to be stupid, just trying to understand it. I really honestly think you guys are intlelligent and know what is going on. That is why I posted. I wanted to know what this was about. I wasn't trying to be either obtuse, by violtion or otherewise, or trying to say we should be worried. Just asking the question, looking for answers. Got that. I feel if I can't ask questions here and trust the answers given, then I really don't know where else I would ask them.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time.

Arthur Cramer, Winnipeg

What Le T said. Although I'll be pleasantly surprised to see even small EI and CPP/QPP gains. The EI improvement which the NDP voted for in 2009 to save the government was worse than "small".

Right, but that's two out of a couple million people. I would agree that they were "less than small" when we consider the cost.

ETA: Were not those improvements also temporary? Just until the end of the "crisis"?

Well it's obvious the NDP aren't serious about this election...the last time Layton made deals with Harper it didn't go to well for the NDP....Voters look at it in a different way than Layton does...voters say the Cons are smart ..look how they manipulated Layton in supporting us....Layton say's , we are working for Canadians blah blah blah and unfortunantely it doesn't pan out in the polls ..does it?

Voting Canadians (greater than 65 and retired collecting Tommy D.'s pension) don't understand UI extensions etc etc...The rest of Canadians (one's that don't vote) all they understand is hardship or paying too much tax...so being nice to them works the opposite to how the NDP think..Yes Canadians for the most part are simpletons..they don't get or care how the NDP works for them ..only a small percentage do (16%) and that's it.....the NDP is doomed , playing nice to the worker class.

Then there is the time before (2 elections ago) where we wouldn't even be looking at Harpers mug for 5 years if it wasn't for Layton jumping in the tub with him...oh you really did good in the polls over that one NDP!

Nope if the NDP want to go good in the polls they would avoid Cons like the plague ..take a tough stand on all there values that made Canada great .....pensions ...ui ...medicare ...centralized banking....etc. Negative ads showing Harper and Iggy drinking and laughing at Canadians from the confines of there private mason club wouldn't hurt..and let the Neocons punish Canadians like they have never been punished before..then when the rioting and civil disobedience causes an election they can pull off a clean sweep.

Unfortunately by that time the country should be totally bankrupt and the medi system destroyed by the right...so Canada you get what's coming to you ..it's not like people didn't warn you ....

Where can I find the NDP's proposed budget?  I have no problem with Jack saying here is our budget plan and we will support the Conservatives if their plan looks anything like ours.  That would focus on what the party would do and would take the policy points being made by the NDP out of the Conservative frame and into a progressive one.  If Jack on the other hand looks like he will deal with the devil for a few crumbs it will not win any new support.

I wrote about this here;

http://rabble.ca/columnists/2011/01/jack-layton-celebrates-eight-years-n...

For the record, Layton says that politics is about bringing people together. He opposes setting some people against other people for partisan advantage. In this case he is taking about parliamentarians, and what governments can achieve by reaching across the aisle, using the Pearson, TC Douglas example on medicare. That is his first preference.

On a broader level, bringing together all farm families, salaried and waged employees, and those on a social wage, also qualify as bringing people together, and is entirely consistent with the need to struggle against the capitalist class as well. That was what the CCF/NDP was created to do after all.

If the first option fails he said the party was ready for an election. 

I really don't understand why Mr Layton gets bad press for providing nuanced statements about what his party will or will not do in response to a budget that has not yet been tabled. I want a party that is ready for an election...but even readier to work to improve things for the generality of the Canadian population. Is it just that a nuanced position doesn't make a very good headline? He's acting like the grownup in the room, and good for him for it.

I beleive the reference was to "bad press" around here, because its not the media knocking the NDP.

They dont directly knock the NDP, that is done here. The media get the reporting all secrewed up, heavily stilted by their low opinion of the NDP. That remains a subtext that "informs" the "analysis"... the NDP is afraid of an election because its goint to lose seats, they need to be seen as getting something from the Conservatives, the Caucus is divided, yada yada.

Whats funniest is people around here taking it as what is going on. Sheesh. 

The NDP is letting low expecations float out there in the media- because its more important to be seen as ready to do something useful. The low expectations will correct themselves later.

Babble has its own special version of the low expectations, but the speculation of what is to come is rooted in the same nonsense the media circulates.

That's why I say the NDP should be just concentrating on the good things they are responsible for in this country..anything they come up with will be torn down and spit on by the media ..until they have a nation wide media that can rip the neocon to pieces and prop up the left it will be that way and make no mistake the media is the boss and they can make or break anyone..pretty well at any time.

You have noticed that Jack Layton is the grown up in the room..your right unfortunately it's just you and 15% of Canadians that can see that..the rest obviously can't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkM5eyN8ytI&feature=user

Don't take my word for it ..look at the polls youreself and the last 5 years of conservative trash that the ndp help prop up . Remember when the Libs were being destroyed by the media/gromely mess...in the tub with Harper he went...you would think he would of learnt his lesson. Now he is thinking of showering with him...one bit of advice ..don't bend over to pick up the soap Jack....

Bring people together...the media will make mince meat out of you ..the conservatives believe in divide and conquer they run the media ...good luck trying to reverse the media ..only 15% of Canadians will see thru it..the rest are already bought ..hook, line and sinker....but yeah at least Jack layton has integrity,  Canadians don't want it and the media rejects it. so..what can you say...keep plugin away at it ..maybe it'll sink in one day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkM5eyN8ytI&feature=user

Yet you call real assistance, that helped real families and real individuals in real life danger and financial hardship- 'less than nothing'  To those many, many people it was a hell of a lot more than 'less than nothing'.  Was it enough to end poverty in Canada - of course not - but show me where the NDP had a real, not imagined, chance to do that with either the Martin or Harper governments.

Yes I know.  But that doesn't mean we belittle the needs of others who are not well off just because they do.

Yeah, Layton is doing let's make a deal alright-- with the NDP's printers.

Stuff is being printed now so while the NDP is certainly interested in any opportunity to achieve something for Canadians and is coming out open-minded-- don't think for a second that they believe we will avoid an electon.

Time to buy some comfortable shoes we are on our way it seems..

Don't forget that the Liberals would have fallen with or without NDP support anyways.

Jack Layton is reminding people that the Harper government can get things done for Canadians. Harper will trigger an election if he thinks he can win it. If not he will look for a deal with Duceppe or Layton. Layton wants people to know that the decision belongs to Harper. Of course Harper will blame all the opposition parties for the unnecessary election he triggered, if it comes to that.

If the mainstream media were indeed providing democracy with oxygen, instead of waging the class war from above, rabble.ca would not need to exist as a news site.

I started following parliament in 1966. From what I've seen since, rabble.ca is the first place the NDP has ever had a fair shake. Only the alternative media are independent of corporate influence.

Since we are on the subject of rabble.ca, our budget is about $200,000 a year. Don Cherry gets over $600,000 from the public broadcaster. Since rabble.ca are running a fund raiser, please think about setting up a monthly contribution. We want to double our budget to provide better staff working conditions, and do a better job. Our staff are part-time, and all volunteer additional time. 

I just like to add a little note: Another way that prevents someone from getting EI is when the employers refuse to fire someone, but instead reduce the worker's hours to the extent that the employee would have to quit on their own. There are so  so many ways someone can fall through the EI system, its a complete joke.

Someone who spends all their time talking to the in crowd, and just thinking about talking to the in crowd, couldn't be expected to understand Duncan's point.

Reminder: "It is very much in this governments power to do something in your interest." Subtext- if they dont, its not because it can't be done, it is because they choose not to.

I was thinking about what Duncan said that Rabble is a media where the NDP gets a fair shake. Which is true. Babble is the location for venting.

Why should it be any different than the MSM here?  Good job y'all.

And that was with just 37 seats when our share of the vote said we should have had 56. Imagine the NDP with official opposition numbers and facing down Ignatief's  best friends forever, the phony minority Harpers. They'd run outa perogies.

Somehow, I don't think the real problem is people's underestimating the power of the Harper government. I haven't met too may people who think it's not within Harper's power to make "a modest increase to the Canada Pension Plan", for example.

Nothing good can come from making a Stephen Harper-dominated parliament work. The last five years are proof of that.

Most Canadians don't want a Stephen Harper government. It makes no sense to say they don't want another election. Why would they pass up another opportunity to throw the bastards out? It's actually the NDP who doesn't want another election, because they have nothing to offer Canadians as an alternative and they know they will get trounced at the polls. Trying to spin cowardice as leadership is a joke.

If it was up to me we'd have elections every year. Politicians would live in constant fear of being thrown out on their ass.

They may not like Harper, but that won't automatically translate into voting against him. Most likely, they will just stay home out of frustration, leaving only Conservative voters to head to the polls.

As for what Canadians want, the vast majority of us have to in our every day lives, work with people we don't particularly like in order to accomplish common goals. The complaint they have is that politicians cannot get along and fight amongst each other like children. This way, Layton can successfully say, "we're committed to working in your best interest, unfortunately Stephen Harper is not."

I'd suggest studying Wilf Day's threads on modern electoral systems to understand why Canadian elections are little more than two party stoogeoffs every four years. The idea behind 19th century electoral systems invented before electricity is to punish third parties for trying to grow support outside the narrow voter base designated for the stoogeaucracy.

Because we're NDPers and we'll spit our last breaths at these hirelings, these colonial administrators and pretenders to the throne shoved into power decade after decade by the filthy rich and foreign interests. Musha rain dum a doo, dum a da Musha rain dum a doo, dum a da

So like I say, there are 20 some-odd registered political parties in Canada. Pick the one with the best platform and weigh that against realistic odds for unseating the stoogeaucracy. Right now that's the NDP. And we're already making the phony opposition look like floaters. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, and sometimes the dog has to skirt and dance around the rabid bear in order to live to fight another day. And we will win!

"STOMP-STOP CLAP!"

Buddy you're a young man hard man
Shoutin' in the street gonna take on the world some day
You got blood on yo' face
You big disgrace
Wavin' your banner all over the place

My advice to the NDP: go bold, or go home.

Wrong question. Not to mention that you don't meet enough people.

Its not a question of literally what the government does or does not have the power to do. People are seduced by the notion that it is questionable whether we can "afford it". And that includes many people who we need to vote NDP or Liberal. [IE, not counting those ideologically opposed to government spending.]

I did not say, and do not mean, that babblers dont give the NDP a fair shake. Echoing Duncan, I said that Rabble does give the NDP that.

The contrast to Babble is that babblers vent. Since by any measure the usefullness of venting is minimal, thats not what you get on Rabble. You get plenty of critique of the NDP, but the discipline of the site minimizes venting.

Apparently people are so taken up with the notion that they occupy the centre of the universe that they see no need to be bothered with looking at the state of mind of the public- ostensibly what electoral politics is about.

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We are talking about a section of the NDP's "loyal supporters." Where I live and work, people who count themselves among the NDPs solid base are happy with what they are seeing.

But that is no small section of the base you are talking about, and obvioulsy highly represented on this board.

The problem is that you are so paranoid about even the possibility of 'playing footsie with Harper' that you don't recognize good pre-election positioning when it is staring you in the face.

Ditto with the NDP being afraid to go to the polls now. There is no evidence for that, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. There is a persistent media narrative that says that. But for some reason that narrative resonates with people who are otherwise very skeptical of what the media says.

By the way, here is the most likely outcome of the next few months, including the election window. Lets see how that stacks with what people want.

The most likely by far possibility is that you are going to see the NDP doing what you apparently think they will not. They are already doing it: making demands that this government will not meet. As we get closer to the election the focus will shift to the demands themselves, and the focus on being open to the [nominal] possibility of some kind of deal will dissappear completely.

There are two months, so there is still some chance we could not have an election. But its looking pretty unlikley. So we go into the election with that emphasis from the NDP.

We come out of the election with only a very small chance for either of two clear outcomes: a Cons majority or a combined majority for the Libs and NDP. In other words, whatever the seat counts, back to where we were.

Even if the Liberals and NDP have done reasonably well, and neither is an unstable governing partner from being badly wounded, who governs is up to the Bloc. And I'll bet that the bloc supports the government- part of the deal being the HST harmonization the government supposedly cannot get done now.

Now obviously that is not the outcome people here are looking for. But its a very likely outcome, even if the NDP pursues the stance people are looking for, and which I think you will see.

That's exactly what we need in these times.  More stand up comedy.

I was too harsh, I admit. The real problem is FPTP - until that is replaced, there's probably not much the NDP can do to get more progressive policy through.

As Sean from Ottawa pointed out in another thread the only real negoitiating the NDP is doing right now is with the printers who will be doing their election work.(to parahrase)

I simply can not believe that people who otherwise tend to have some smarts can not see exactly what is going on.  The prevailing mood  of 75 % of the country is a pox on all their damn houses.  They see politicians squabbling like Parliament Hill was a daycare with little positive to offer as solutions.  They don't want a lot of lofty promises because they don't believe it.  Offer some big promise to end poverty overnight and they will just roll their eyes because they won't believe it -no matter how good an idea they might think it is.  Talk about Harper in the terms he is talked about on babble and you will guarentee a massive Harper majority, because people are sick of attack politics (whether is is coming from the right or left).  Most people simply want to see a politiican say what he/she means an mean what he/she says and seems to understand their hopes and fears.

What Layton has been doing has been talking to the vast majority of the country, but in some ways especially non-voters, and saying 'we hear you and we are prepared to work but we need these other tools do it to'.  When , not if the election comes Layton will be able to say with some credibility we tried to get some real improvements in your life - but we were stopped by Harper.  Duncan's point above is that Layton is reminding Canadians that Harper could do something, but won't.  That is a good narrative going into an election.  At the same time the NDP is getting free media coverage of what are surely going to be part of the NDPs platform and themes in an election that is surely coming just as spring itself. 

The NDP is clearly ready, chomping at the bit in fact, if you follow those in the ranks.  At this point I see the only potential block to an election as being a sudden case of cold feet from the Liberals who are clearly half-hearted if you follow comments from beyond the leader bubble.  It is extremely unlikely they will back down, so I put the chance of an election day in mid-April at about 95%

Ltu, you are challenging those who last tried to put across social democratic goals to the public sometime before the advent of P.E.T.  They've no idea what is involved, anymore, and would not thank you for messing up their neat little universes, based as they are, not on polls but  sophistry.

As DC said: "I started following parliament in 1966. From what I've seen since, rabble.ca is the first place the NDP has ever had a fair shake. Only the alternative media are independent of corporate influence."

I was a few years ahead of him, and in his first federal election as NDP leader, Tommy pointed out the national news bias against social democracy. It should be obvious to DC that rabble doesn't cut it with the more ideological element of babble for whom money matters matters not a whit, whether in analysis or the real world.

Fidel, you're becoming far too predictable with that tired meme. Throw in that "northern Puerto Rico" once in a while, okay? 

Some people follow the polls closely and can sentence institutions to seppuku with a wave of their fairy wand.

Oh, I agree 100%, Fidel - just taking a friendly poke at you. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't your clone speaking for you. 

I think some people want Jack to be another Hugo Chavez. And I think that's admirable. But if we are to follow Venezuela's experience to a tee, then we must first experience the far depths of corruption in government while US energy companies siphon off what's left of the oil. It will require the electorate to become thoroughly jaded and for the stoogeaucracy to finally grow a pair each themselves and dare get rid of the last vestiges of the CCF-NDP legacy namely universal health care. When that's gone, then Canadians will become disgruntled enough to want to clean the halls of power of political rot and decay. And then we will have our revolutionary MMP electoral system Venezuelan style. Then will every Canadian's vote be counted equally. Then we will be able to say we are Tunisians today and hold up signs mocking our political stooges that read, "Game Over!"

If this is what you really want Duncan I would encourage you to help shine a light on the amazing consituency level work being done in Brant, Essex and Huron-Bruce by, respectfully Marc Laferriere, Taras Natyshak and Grant Robertson and their local teams.  They are doing exactly what you say you want done.  So what will people do to support their work and get them to the House of Commons to show that this hard slogging is the right recipe.

You know Duncan I am really getting tired of you glossing over people who are doing what you say you want all the time like it is irrelevant.  I know it is hard to pull your head out of deep thoughts, but it is on the ground with the kind of people I mentioned that the progressive movement has to win if things are ever going to change.  I am now in my 60s - I am running out of patience for the big movement to get involved on the ground where the change has to win if we think electoral politics matter. All three of the people I've mentioned have committed an enourmous amount of their own time and resources to build ridings to the point they are now competative.  They are going to need help to compete against the tens of thousands of dollars Conservatives will spend to beat them back.  Yet whenever anyone ever brings up these kinds of specifics you just dismiss it like no one said anything.  Makes one start to wonder.

ETA: I was replying to LTU's comments about no-one hearing and listening to what's actually being done in those three ridings in SW Ontario.

You won't find that written about in the Toronto Star, is the problem. For all the griping that's done about the corporate media around here, people still don't realize the extent their limited coverage colours our perception of what is actually happening on the ground.

I suppose you could write a column on what is happening in those ridings for Babble, LTU. Maybe it would get read that way.

Next election October 2012. Until then the official opposition party will have to continue looking a lot like support props for the Harpers. And it isn't winning them any new support from the electorate apparently. Play it cool, Jack. Play it cool.

I agree with the first part and I would like to agree with the second part but I suspect that while most people hate attack ads they still work and that is why the Conservatives will say they are not running attack ads while running attack ads.

The Lib-Cons only have their fangs covered for the time being. They are playing meek and mild themselves in order to sucker Canadians into handing either one of them phony-majority dictatorial powers. And what pathetic percentage of Canadians have been voting over the last six years are refusing to give it to them. And so their high-priced electoral strategists watch the opinion polls for an opportune moment to seize power.

I would have thought that the last thing I would be accused of on babble was promoting play nice.  My point was the kind of rhetoric I see on babble that compares Harper to Hitler, uses terms like fascist and all the rest are counter-productive if your goal is to try and reach out beyond a hardcore base.  It doesn't even matter if that language might meet some empirical truth scale, it turns people off.  I have no problem with tough and think nice and sunny rarely works - think of Layton's first or second campaign with the 'green and prosperous Canada where no one is left behind' nonsense.  Yuck.  Tough is good, overt attack is wearing thin though.  It might even be possible that the reason the Conservatives have not pushed above 40 is because of attack ads, but that would be an assertion not something I could prove or even fully believe, but it is a possibility.

There other thing to remember is as unfair as it is the left is held to a much different standard.  It totally sucks, but the right can do things that are bold faced lies and untruthes and they are left alone.  If the left gets even close to the line the right goes over regularly it will be the left who gets called offside every time.

I hold some hope that the NDP seems to be using social media pretty well, if I can make the assumption the three candidates I mentioned above are indicative of a trend.  All three use it differently, but they all reach out effectively.  That to me is going to be the real way the NDP can reach around the media and get a larger message to the general public.

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Before going into that question, here's the full quote from Charlie Angus.

First of all- bear in mind what OO said there: how people are quite willing to view the NDP through the lens of the corporate media. This whole thread is testimony to that.

But the reason that minds are so fertile for what the Star serves up, is because people are so fixated on their notions that any noises about cooperation with Conservatives is inherently bad.

You say Unionist, "can anyone shed light on that?" Again?! you mean?

For the umpteenth time: its all abut positioning. Both Charlie Angus and Jack Layton are fostering broadly held notions that the Harper Crew runs it my way or the highway. So many of you here seem to be absolutely tone deaf to that frequency range, because you are fixated only on reading whether or not the NDP is going to vote for the Budget. Since many of you do not understand, or maybe refuse to countenance, any reason for the 'we might vote for the Budget' talk, it seems to manifest only as confusion of the only thing that matters to you.

Wow, Ken, those are long posts where you manage not to answer my question and not to read my posts.

I guess I'll have to say it for the (I think it's the) 4th time:

What should he not give in exchange? Ummm... support for extending the mission in Afghanistan? More corporate tax cuts?

Ok with that Ken? OO?

Unionist, the topic is about possibilities of deals around the Budget. Do you have a resistance with being explicit?

We know you would like to see getting CPP enhancements. We know that you view that as not nothing.

But I asked you if it would be enough to get in return for supporting the Budget. This isnt that abstract. To accept CPP enhancements in return for supporting the Budget means for one thing, giving up on demanding that the Budget include rolling back the corporate tax cut. Not to mention it means letting this government continue.

And by the way, I did answer your question as to who better represents Caucus thinking: Angus and Layton are speaking from the same page. For Caucus thinking, there isnt a difference between what the two said. I offered an explanation of why you dont realize they are saying the same thing.

Well, we could try to win elections instead of claiming that our role is to whinge on the sidelines.

I'm not interested in having the NDP as the Conscience of Parliament.  I want the NDP to be the Government of Canada.

And one thing we need to overcome (though far from the only one) is this counterproductive idea that the NDP should not try to win.  Fortunately Jack's gotten over that bullshit.  Now if the rest of the left would catch up.

The Bloc have a 3rd option. They could choose not to take sides and obstain. The key question in the next election may be, who has more seats, the Cons or the NDP and Libs? If the NDP and Liberals end up having more seats then the Conservatives, I expect to see the Harper government lose power, most likely through the loss of the Throne Speech.

The Bloc probably would like to see the NDP and Liberals win more seats then the Cons so they would not have to decide who governs Canada. The BQ does not want to be saddled with being the sole reason Harper stays in power as Harper and the Cons are not popular in Quebec. Because of Harper's unpopularity in Quebec, I think the BQ would side with the NDP and Liberals and vote against the Cons Throne Speech. If the BQ keeps the Cons in power they will leave themselves open to the claim that a vote for the BQ is a vote for maintaining Harper and the Cons in power. That, in turn, could hurt the BQ's popularity over the long term.

Closing for length.