Le débat des chefs en français

Starts an hour later than the anglais one, at 5 PM on Canada's Left Coast

They're on Duceppe's turf tonight, and I suspect Duceppe is ready for combat this time. We'll see.

Duceppe is a billion times more fluid in French than Layton, but he constantly loses his cool. Layton will probably come across, yet again, as infinitely more likeable. Also, Duceppe has to be careful what he says about sovereignty. As Marois has learned, there is very little apetite for such acrimony in Quebec right now.

See you in a couple of hours - it's debate night!

Duceppe just served Ignatieff about his proposals being a matter of provincial jurisdiction (child care & education)

The way Ignatieff and Duceppe are attacking Layton makes it look like Layton is the PM!

Duceppe is doing great. Layton is about to manhandle Harper in the 1 on 1. Harper seems really meek tonight. Probably doesn't help that he struggles in French.

Harper got under Layton's skin at the end. Layton needs to watch himself. He is in the catbird seat for a change and the others are messing with him

Duceppe is starting to get Harper angry. He's interrupting his pre-prepared remakrs made to the camera by forcing him to answer his own questions.

Harper is flustered by this, he's not used to being interrupted and confronted this way. He was clearly destabilized for a while.

Layton is being too vague in his responses again and he's stumbled a couple times in French. His first slip.

Thanks but the only net I have is on my cell. I'll have to watch it in french, and read the thread. Still Jack seems to have better BL and Harper seemed to have eaten something sour when Jack way talking. Iggy seems more boring in French but maybe it is because I don't understand him.

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

The difference between the actual production, including moderation, is remarkable.   Time to dump Paikin for the english debate and get real journalists like this!

I agree, this production is so far immensely better than the English version - from the moderation, to the questions chosen for the leaders.  Also, Duceppe's French, I think, sets the tone for the debate, and raises the level discussion.  And more: I find I can't really make much sense of Harper's spin in French, which makes the whole experience, so far, more interesting. 

On anothern note, did you folks see that yesterday's debate had a record number of viewers? http://t.co/VKCfJHO

Gillles played his cards to early, gave Jack a chance to prepare for the attack when it mattered.

*You got know what to holdem. Know when to foldem and when walkaway. You don't your chips when your sitting at the table, there will be time enough for counting when the dealings donee* Sings.

I also recogized Jack talking about Iraq. And Bush.

On the debate on crime, Duceppe just slammed Harper. He talked about how Harper was great at screening people going to his campaign rallies but terrible at screening (implied: convicts) from working in the PMO.

Very different dynamic tonight but the language is interesting-- Harper is much better than he was two years ago but is struggling badly and his answers are limited by language. I find Layton is also stumbling in his language more than I expected. Ignatieff in spite of his accent is speaking quite well he seems to be finding his words more easily than I expected.

All of them except Duceppe are recycling phrases from last night to such a degree that I feel they are devaluing both last night's effort and tonight -- leaving their performance to look more contrived.

But honestly Sean how many people do you think watch both debates?  

What matters isn't the debates, it is the coverage of the debates that really matter.

I think Harper is really the loser in this debate up to now. Ignatieff is much better in that he doesn't repeat himself half as much and talked about his policies more. Layton is pretty aggressive too, and it works. Duceppe is in control due to his language. Harper on the other hand is silent most of the time, the debate seems to be between the three others.

Duceppe just smacked Harper down about giving Quebec a seat at UNESCO. "Harper says that Quebec stands tall at UNESCO. Quebec has no choice but to stand tall because the Conservatives won't give them a seat." Big laugh from the audience.

Duceppe is using Harper like a punching bag contrasting Harper's positions with unanimous resolutions of the Quebec National Assembly that run counter.

Duceppe is strident now. He asked "how long until Canada merges with the US?" Ignatieff then had a major "federalism" fail and Duceppe went off on a long diatribe/history lesson about nationalism, etc etc...sounded very much like the discourses of the Rene Levesque era...these recriminations and debates never seem to end...ever

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Haha, yes... that comment about joining the US, if sovereignty is so out of date in 2011, seemed to genuinely stump Ignatieff..

Layton just talked about starting the process of bringing Quebec into the constitution...

Hi Anonymous - interesting observation about Duceppe.  I wish more people were watching the French debate.  The questions are so many of the ones that should have also been asked last night.

Layton is taking Ignatieff to task for supporting the Afghan mission and being the strongest supporter of Harper.

Ignatieff says he supported the Afghan war to protect civilians and he's proud of it.  "We have a mission to prepare the Afghan Army so that they are able to defend themselves".  That's rich!!

The sound is terrrrrrrible...again. Grand echo chamber and something just fell over off-stage making a large noise. The producers have blown it. More noise. WTF? Is there an earthquake going on?

ETA: can hear coughing in the audience, Laughing, shuffling about, and occasionally the leaders on stage get distracted by things we can't see.

Debate is over. I enjoyed it because Harper was beaten badly. Clear fourth place.

Sure, keep telling yourself that.

He did lose it distinctly. He was ignored and left alone for most of the debate.

It's not good for a PM who wants to give an aura of authority to become just part of the background, which is what Harper became for a lot of it.  I think the other leaders got wise since yesterday. by laying off Harper a bit. This took away Harper's opportunity to "answer", which he had mostly used to repeat pre-packaged declarations in the English debate. This really shut off Harper, because his attitude was mostly passive and defensive, but if no one keeps laying it on him, he stays in his shell and disappears from the debate.

Duceppe had the others dancing to his tune, so I think he won. Jack was again the Energizer Bunny. Harper was better than last night, but that's not saying much. Ignatieff was better than last night, probably will have people looking at his party's platform more, and so will Layton. Layton looked exasperated a few times by the others, but didn't lose his cool, although he waved his arms around a lot. Duceppe stuck to his guns by saying Quebec is Quebec, and needs to be its own country - and the other three leaders simply don't have a clue as to what he's talking about. I think Duceppe will probably keep the support he has, I'd like to see his support expand, but these other guys want in. No one mentioned the Quebec arena funding fiasco - probably a good thing.

Interesting take because on the National Herbert mentioned in terms of the debate when asked who got the most focus and who did best - Duceppe and Layton - she didn't even mention Harper or Iggy. When Coyne responded, he said "he agreed" with Herbert's take, and said he would talk about the other 2 parties because she didn't - like an after thought!

The comments on RDI are fascinating -

http://elections.radio-canada.ca/elections/federales2011/le_debat/index....

copied & pasted from your link NR:

[Commentaire de la part de Jean Robert] 
Je trouve Layton beaucoup trop populiste

22h41

[Commentaire de la part de France Dupuis] 
Belle lunettes Hugo!

22h42

[Commentaire de la part de Pierre-Olivier Tremblay] 
Layton Duceppe, Grand gagnant... et c'étais pas a EUX a faire leur preuve ils sont déjà beaucoup aimé au québec... donc débat francophone on conforte se qu'on savais déjà

The fact that it was between Jack and Gilles is an automatic victory by Jack on the Federalist side and if Gilles supporter are even so much as divided on the issue of which one won, it gets even better.

Because if it was between Gilles and it means the other ywo federalist options just got left in the dust. Huge win for Jack on that alone.

Anynone in the media who claims Harper won tonight's debate is a Con propagandist. Harsh, but that's how I feel.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/09/13/canada-nra-gun-registry.h...

Did Jack refer to Iggy as Harper's meilleur ami pour toujours at any point?

So Duceppe of course did well but Jack a strong second. Iggy bombed worse than English debate, and Harper may have lost a bit as well. 

http://www.torontosun.com/news/decision2011/2011/04/13/17986826.html

My perceptions after watching the French debate in French, I'd say I caught 70% of the language. [edited to change that to 70% of the literal meaning of the language, the jokes were hard to catch]

Duceppe- As Layton said, the BQ is a team full of defensemen, and Duceppe I think held his own defending Quebec's sovereigntist stance. But the BQ leader enjoys a huge advantage in that it is easier to defend the narrower sovereigntist viewpoint in Quebec than to advance arguments for a grander vision of Quebec in Canada, which I detected as an underlying leitmotif in the questions posed by the citizens, certainly in the segments on 'nos valeurs' and 'le place du Canada dans le monde.' (as for the threads: He dressed down a bit, looked more official-like, got away with wearing the suit he wore in the English debate because he had few voters to woo then, such a suit would seem pimpy when worn speaking to potential voters.)

Ignatieff- I would say he made the biggest gains in this debate, therefore succeeded admirably. Didn't deliver any knockout punches, but did deliver some hard bruisings to Harper, and also while counterattacking Layton ('please, yourself included, we've all voted with Mr. Harper to make Parliament work'). Seems more animated in French, did repeat themes but did not sound like a recording on repeat like last night, got into more varied details. Showed some understanding of the question posed by the 53 year old unemployed woman (saying people like her are probably facing having to care for children and aging parents and meanwhile un/underemployed. 'Vous avez besoin de l'espoir sans demanagez de votre communaute'). Distinguished his view from the Americanized HarpoCon prison industry, clearly summarized the dismal HarpoCon record in international affairs (more hard detail would have been nice). Also distinguished his view from the "Canada vs. Quebec" view ('C'est possible d'etre quebecois et canadien. / Je parle francais, c'est dans mon ame.' - sounded genuine enough). Seemed more eager to interrupt tonight but didn't have much to lose by doing so.

Layton- Also did well, got in a lot of jabs. Hammered Harper on tax breaks to largest corporations. I like his slogan "winning conditions for Canada within Quebec" (although Jack does seem a little too slick and packaged at times, sounding more like a salesman than a person trying to win voters' trust). One of his best moments was whacking Harper on blocking, with unelected Con Senators, the motion to make competency in French a requirement for Supreme Court judges. It would be great if the NPD could get Gatineau in addition.

No one hammered Harper on his environmental record. Do they all acquiesce to the farce of "Nationally Appropriate Mitigation Actions" under the Copenhagen Accord, which will get the planet nowhere, post-Kyoto Protocol?

Harper- Also played defence all night, falling back on the old refrain of "only Cons can manage the economy." His turn tonight to be the stuck recording (in the English debate it was Iggy). His cool demeanour which works as teflon in English I think comes off as a layer of slime in French. On the question of Canada's place in the world, all he could do was defend the F-35 purchase and the jobs it would bring to Quebec. But the question was about why we are spending money to attack countries, such as Libya at the moment. His mind is a little stuck, maybe he suffers from a military-industrial complex.

For the English debate, I'd subjectively quantify Jack as taking two steps forward, Harper one, Iggy fell back one or even two, and Duceppe didn't really matter.
For the French debate, Iggy two forward, Jack one forward, Harper back at least two, and Duceppe neutral. How much did the ROC tune in to the French debate? Was it translated well? This may be the one for anti-Con persuaders to show.

The BQ getting 65% of Quebec's seats with 38% of Quebec's votes is a key reason for the current fractured parliament. The choices of 'Americanizing Con majority (possibly leading towards separation)' vs. 'stale stalemated status quo' vs. 'change in government (and Quebec in Canada)' is very much in Quebec voters' hands. I hope they shift significantly from BQ/Con to the NDP or Liberal best poised to win.

Anyone else counted the number of times Ignatieff said "Madame Paillé"? At some point, it seemed like Iggy couldn't refrain from saying her name every five words... She apparently was a hit on Twitter too.

According to Ipsos Duceppe was the winner with Ignatieff and Layton virtually tied for second and with Harper being the big loser

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5205

They say that 17% of viewers said they were changing their vote as a result of the debate and they were going Liberal or NDP.

I think the main impact of the French debate was that Harper totally bombed...we shall see what damage that does to his seat count in Quebec.

What Ignatieff did really well was provide a lot of precise and concise detail on his policies and finding ways to link it in to the questions the leaders were being asked.

Congratulations to Duceppe on winning.

Very hopefully so, and glad to see it registering in some polls. Seems the other three slashed and pummelled him good, Harper has some spears and daggers sticking out of him. But for the Cons to do badly overall, the Quebec federalist vote must replace BQ seats with Libs and NDPers, putting the two collectively ahead of the Cons, to gut the Con "coalition" rhetoric. My hope is that a large chunk of voters have been "parked," or have been allowing Quebec to be parked, with the BQ, while waiting for a federalist vision they can affirm, if it ever appeared.

I don't know which ref called that. Layton's killer quote to Duceppe was:

But Duceppe shot right back:

My loose translation:

"All I can say is that the Bloc always had more players on the ice than the NDP - and you know you'll never be prime minister!"

Did your impressions of the leaders impove?

Layton        +42

Ignatieff     +28

Duceppe     +20

Harper        -36

ummm, initial press reaction not that clear:

http://tinyurl.com/6af3v7a

Hi Stock,

I went through it carefully and it didn't say that but this:

Harper’s performance in the debate had a net negative effect on viewers as just 11% say their impressions of Stephen Harper improved, compared with 47% whose impressions worsened (net: -36). Contrast that with Jack Layton’s and Michael Ignatieff’s performances: a majority (52%) had improved impressions of the NDP leader as a result of watching the debate, compared to just 10% whose impressions worsened (net: +42). Similarly, a majority (52%) of Francophone viewers say their impressions of Michael Ignatieff improved, while just one quarter (24%) say they worsened (net: +28).

Layton's net effect - +42   Ignatieff's net effect +28

I have refrained from putting in a prediction because I think this is still fluid.

I think Ignatieff lost several key exchanges that matter in Quebec. I have not counted NDP gains there out of the question. Both the NDP and the Liberals could see gains. It remains unlikely the NDP will get many seats in Quebec due to the distribution of the vote but they could get a couple more and that would be hugely significant for the future.

I remain very concerned but this is not yet hopeless. The media is full of shit on the reporting of the debate but some 5,000,000 people watched one or both of them. That is well more than 1/3 of voters. Everyone knows someone who watched the debate for themselves. The polls may well disagree with the fawning over Harper that the media is doing.

By next week we will be in a position to see if the NDP is going to lose seats or make historical gains-- both are possible. The one thing I think is off the table is the status quo. My suspicion is the NDP is either going to come out north of 45 or south of 35 but the in between is not as likely.

Another surprise may be the turnout. I think we might have a higher turnout than some expect. Putting a Harper majority on the table may have been the Cons worst play. The media being so obviously biased may be starting to discredit them.

It comes down to one thing-- the media have attempted to manipulate this election and they may have succeeded -- I have said this might be over.  On the other hand it is possible that gamble will bust and people might yet use their first hand knowledge of the debate. I thought it was game over with the media reporting until I saw the numbers of how many actually watched-- now I am not so sure.

Disagree with what Remind? Sorry can you please clarify?

Sorry Sean I just did, meant with acramer, so I edited it to reflect that;

I am never 'right' but hopefully I am correct.

I think that pool may be somewhat larger than you credit, because Quebecois political awareness is less directly influenced by American media than much of the RoC; and there is some recognition that by international standards the NDP is hardly "leftist", but simply left of its primary opponents in this political market.

If only Layton had the vision to reply: If we worked together perhaps one of us could be, Gilles.

Closing for length. Please continue here.