Liberal Party of Canada

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kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I'll be quiet when the partisans like yourself are as well. I have every right to post on this board despite the fact that certain NDP supporters feel it is their board and their board alone. I come here to debate politics with the emphasis on debate. I've never been much for mindless cheer leading. My party right or wrong is a theory that I find very, very wrong. I think that about all partisans no matter what party they belong to. When the mindless cheer leading of one party and the gratuitous and  nasty comments about all others subsides so will my repartee on those kinds of posts. I'm not expecting that to happen anytime soon. Why do you want only one point of view discussed anyways?

socialdemocrati...

You have the right to your opinion. And everyone else has the right to correct you when you post misinformation, misquotes, and otherwise put words in peoples' mouths. To what end, I'm not sure. But hope you're having fun.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

K:

This is getting tiresome. You either missed my point, or you purposely ignored it. This is just a small hole in wall on the Internet. Its frequented mainly by enthusiasts and is a forum of opinion. In the grand scheme of things, this forum probably doesn't matter match. But YOU treat it like it is FULLY representative of a NATIONAL political party. In all likliehood, its probably a mixed bag in this regard. Most of your commentary exists of lecturing posters on their shortcomings, narrow-mindness, and discriminatory attitude. I wouldn''t mind your posts so much if they weren't such a combination of insite and lecture. THAT, it is my point. The fact you can't get it, is frankly, YOUR problem. Yeah, there's cheer leading here all right. So what? Why does that matter? What do want us all to do, say "yeah K, you are right, we're jerks"? Post all you want, but stop beating people up. It is boring, and predictable. If you don't like my opinion, fine, but, and this is my  point, DON'T take it as representative of anyone else's thoughts but my own. Debate all you want, but knock off the lecturing. The debate is welcome, but the lecturing isn't. Again, I say, the debate is welcome; the lecturing isn't. Figure it out. And remember, the only person my comments represent, are MINE. Don't paint everyone else with the same broad brush. Got it?

janfromthebruce

So let's go back to talking about the Liberal party or not. They are boring anyways.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Debate all you want, but knock off the lecturing. The debate is welcome, but the lecturing isn't. Again, I say, the debate is welcome; the lecturing isn't. Figure it out. And remember, the only person my comments represent, are MINE. Don't paint everyone else with the same broad brush. Got it?

Excellent lecture, well done.  Thanks for posting an acceptable lecture as a template so I can get a feel for how I should post in the future. Tell me is repeating things three times the key to a good lecture?

Personally when I have had teachers who repeated things that many times I usually feel asleep during their lectures.

Arthur I responded to a post by another poster and then you put yourselves in their shoes and responded as if I had spoken to you.  Read the posts above again, you are the one responding to my posts that were not directed at you and now you complain I lump you in with other NDP posters.  Gee I wonder why?

 

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Debate all you want, but knock off the lecturing. The debate is welcome, but the lecturing isn't. Again, I say, the debate is welcome; the lecturing isn't. Figure it out. And remember, the only person my comments represent, are MINE. Don't paint everyone else with the same broad brush. Got it?

Excellent lecture, well done.  Thanks for posting an acceptable lecture as a template so I can get a feel for how I should post in the future. Tell me is repeating things three times the key to a good lecture?

Personally when I have had teachers who repeated things that many times I usually feel asleep during their lectures.

Arthur I responded to a post by another poster and then you put yourselves in their shoes and responded as if I had spoken to you.  Read the posts above again, you are the one responding to my posts that were not directed at you and now you complain I lump you in with other NDP posters.  Gee I wonder why?

 

Whatever K, whatever.

NorthReport

Obviously Mulcair scored big and the reason why Harper changed his demeanour yesterday.
Mulcair Sliced and Diced Harper and His Pork Policies

It was NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair’s finest hour  … or at least 15 minutes: the Opposition carved up the Prime Minister during Question Period Tuesday with the skills of an expert butcher carving up a pork roast , leaving Stephen Harper’s credibility in pieces on the Commons floor.

Rarely have I enjoyed a Question Period as much as I did this one … the first one Harper has attended since the scandal over the pig-at-the-trough spending by Harper-appointed Senator Mike Duffy, as well as the back-door repayment deal that cost Harper’s Chief of Staff his job, discredited the federal Conservatives for ALTERING and  SANITIZING a Senate report into Duffy’s spending habits.

It stinks! And the public want answers …and justice.

Mulcair was in the best form I’ve ever seen him … coolly and calmly asking Harper several questions to which the public want answers.

And what was equally interesting was the contrast between Mulcair and new Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau.

Mulcair, a lawyer, was clearly the more effective, experienced examiner/cross-examiner, scoring point after point; Trudeau, a  former teacher, showed his nervousness, inexperience and  ineffectiveness in taking on the Prime Minister.

Of course, neither got the whole story from Harper …but the exchanges were TERRIFIC.

Here is the Hansardian transcript as published on www.Vancouverobserver.com : Read it and ENJOY!

http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/mulcair-sliced-and-diced-harper-and-his-po...

mark_alfred

Interesting that there's no mention of Dr. Henry Morgentaler's passing on the Liberal website, whereas the NDP posted something immediately.

bekayne

mark_alfred wrote:

Interesting that there's no mention of Dr. Henry Morgentaler's passing on the Liberal website, whereas the NDP posted something immediately.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/29/henry-morgentaler-canadian-politicians_n_3355065.html

Trudeau was the first federal leader to weigh in, tweeting that he was sad to learn the news.

 

Justin Trudeau, MP@JustinTrudeau 
Justin Trudeau, MPSad to hear of Dr. Henry Morgentaler's death. A crusader for women's reproductive freedom, his contributions will be remembered. #CdnPoliMay 29, 2013 7:44 pm via Sprout Social  Reply  Retweet  Favorite

 

“A crusader for women's reproductive freedom, his contributions will be remembered,” Trudeau wrote.

 

mark_alfred

Thanks.  I'm not with Twitter, so didn't see this.  Odd there's no statement on their website (unless I missed it).

bekayne

mark_alfred wrote:

Thanks.  I'm not with Twitter, so didn't see this.  Odd there's no statement on their website (unless I missed it).

You didn't miss anything, the only thing on their website from the last couple of days is something about International Peacekeeping Day

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Does the fact that Trudeau tweeted give him the edge over Tom on this? Is Tom on Twitter? Did we lose on this?

janfromthebruce

We didn't lose anything. It was placed on the NDP webpage for all to see, anytime of the day and throughout the week. Sending a tweet is like a drop in the bucket. After it drops, it becomes just a part of the whole and unless you see it or decide to go through all Trudeau's tweets, you would not see it.

 

Kara

Arthur, I am sure you did not mean it that way, but the death of such an important and admirable person as Dr. Morgenthaler should not become a matter of winning or losing.  Rather it should be about respect for a man who made such an important contribution to this country.  Kudos to any and all political types who chose to pay tribute to him (even in the case of a numpty like JT) and disgust for those who could not be bothered.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Kara wrote:

Arthur, I am sure you did not mean it that way, but the death of such an important and admirable person as Dr. Morgenthaler should not become a matter of winning or losing.  Rather it should be about respect for a man who made such an important contribution to this country.  Kudos to any and all political types who chose to pay tribute to him (even in the case of a numpty like JT) and disgust for those who could not be bothered.

Kara, did you really need to post that? Isn't it pretty obvious what my intent was? What do you want? I feel I am being harrassed.

Unionist

What kara said.

ETA: Arthur - no one intended any offence to you. But Morgentaler was a tzadik. So let's just say, zikhrono livracha, and leave the partisan rivalry for another day.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Unionist wrote:
What kara said.

Oh come on! What do you want?  Do you want me to apologize for something I didn't do?

mark_alfred

Kara wrote:

Arthur, I am sure you did not mean it that way, but the death of such an important and admirable person as Dr. Morgenthaler should not become a matter of winning or losing.

Morgentaler himself was an activist who wanted to win and change Canada for the better, which he did.  So, wanting to make sure that he and his ideas continue to win and are recognized by both the centrist and social democratic parties of Canada seems reasonable to me.  If there had not been any acknowledgement by either the Liberal Party or its leader, then yes, they would have lost even more favour with me.

Unionist

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Unionist wrote:
What kara said.

Oh come on! What do you want?  Do you want me to apologize for something I didn't do?

No I don't. Read what I said. That's what I want you to do. What I said. Not something different. Of course, what you do is up to you.

Morgentaler was a great human being, a feminist, a healer, a hero. May his memory be blessed. And forget about the Liberals and the NDP and the Conservatives and everyone else who looks at the world through the prism of power and electoral advantage. Next to him, they are nothing.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Unionist wrote:
What kara said. ETA: Arthur - no one intended any offence to you. But Morgentaler was a tzadik. So let's just say, zikhrono livracha, and leave the partisan rivalry for another day.

Indeed, may his memory be a blessing. Shalom!

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

Unionist wrote:

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Unionist wrote:
What kara said.

Oh come on! What do you want?  Do you want me to apologize for something I didn't do?

No I don't. Read what I said. That's what I want you to do. What I said. Not something different. Of course, what you do is up to you.

Morgentaler was a great human being, a feminist, a healer, a hero. May his memory be blessed. And forget about the Liberals and the NDP and the Conservatives and everyone else who looks at the world through the prism of power and electoral advantage. Next to him, they are nothing.

Agreed, reasonable, and I apologize to you for any offence. Sorry, sometimes I am a real hot head. My sinere regrets Unionist, I should have known better. Sorry.

janfromthebruce

I found out something I didn't know about Morgentaler. He was a supporter of the NDP. This is lovely story: JANUARY 25, 2003: MORGENTALER, ME, AND HISTORY

January 25, 2003--the day of the NDP Leadership Convention at the CNE's National Trade Centre: a momentous event where Jack Layton was elected party leader (and little did any of us know how far he was going to take NDP). However, I wasn't directly part of that, i.e. I wasn't a currently registered NDP member, much less a registered attendee. Still, out of bystanding political-junkie curiosity, and given it was practically a short walk/transit ride there from my then-abode near the southern reaches of High Park, I decided to make my way to the venue, hoping to catch a bit of the "aura", maybe a bit of literature or buttons or ephemera.

snip

Yes, indeed: this wasn't just another "delegate-figure": it was Dr. Henry Morgentaler. There as one of Jack Layton's "star endorsees".

 

mark_alfred

janfromthebruce

great pic Mark

Kara

Arthur Cramer wrote:

Kara wrote:

Arthur, I am sure you did not mean it that way, but the death of such an important and admirable person as Dr. Morgenthaler should not become a matter of winning or losing.  Rather it should be about respect for a man who made such an important contribution to this country.  Kudos to any and all political types who chose to pay tribute to him (even in the case of a numpty like JT) and disgust for those who could not be bothered.

Kara, did you really need to post that? Isn't it pretty obvious what my intent was? What do you want? I feel I am being harrassed.

Arthur, I'm sorry you took it that way.  I definitely was not intending to attack or harass you.  The very first thing I said was that I was sure you didn't mean it that way - not sure why you ignored that?

Your post drew a response along the same lines of winning and losing - that was why I felt compelled to respond because the direction the discussion about Dr. Morgenthaler was taking was distressing. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

So in a thread about the Liberal party we have pictures of Layton and Morgentaler.  LMAO

Morgentaler was a great man but WTF does his relationship with the NDP have to do with this thread?

mark_alfred

Nothing.  Thread drift.  But it is a nice picture, don't you think?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

The story was very interesting and went very well in the RIP thread. The picture would have been appropriate and welcomed there as well.

I liked your idea for this thread but what the heck since there are so few threads devoted to the NDP it is best if every thread becomes one. 

Quote:

There's a general thread about the NDP, where people post their random thoughts about that party.  So, seems a good idea to have the same for the Liberal Party of Canada.

 

Sean in Ottawa

JKR wrote:
Brachina wrote:

JKR wrote:
NorthReport wrote:

I suppose the big losers this week are the Liberals, particularly over the Toronto Star's foaming at the mouth articles about Toronto Mayor Rob Ford - I mean where is that darn video anyways?  Laughing 

The Star supported Justin Trudeau's candidate who lost against Ford in the Toronto election, and obviously they have never ever gotten over it. 

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/2013/05/23/Rob_Ford/

 

 

With respect to polls you have it backwards though-- it is not a question of who of those who do polls will actually vote but of voters who will consent to being polled.

Over 50% of eligible voters vote and less than 1% of those dialed for polling agree to do a survey.

Once you get that you can see that motivation to be polled ebbs and flows and is subject to events, feelings, issues and certainly leadership campaigns.

People often get this backwards. They say for example that there are all these people who tell pollsters they will vote green and not show up. Rather there is a core of Green supporters motivated to be polled and that extra motivation means they are polled disproportionately. The presumption that the poll was correct and they existed only to vanish is the arrogance of polling-- a presumption that if the result is different something changed rather than they got it wrong.

As for BC-- those who wanted to replace the government were more motivated and likely polled higher while Liberal supporter just went and voted. That with a lacklustre NDP campaign and you have the makings of a big gap between what the polls said and what the result was.

The enemy of your enemy may be your friend but cheering for Rob Fort is a bit much.

After the internationally bizarre week Ford had, you'd have to be smoking crack to believe that the Liberals at 44% in the polls are the losers of the week.

I suppose Christy Clark and the winner of the $600 million lottery in the US were 2nd runners-up in the losers of the week race?

If you believe that the 44 percent is real, I got some swampland in Florida to sell you :p The polls can't be trusted, they keep getting it wrong again and again.

It's important to understand why polls of political preference have failed to predict election results. First off, polls of the general population can not accurately predict who will actually vote especially when the overall turnout is low. Secondly, political polls cannot prevent a political party from running an ineffective election campaign that gives voters no reason to vote for them or against other parties. Thirdly, if a political party has a huge lead in the polls and thus it takes it for granted that they can coast to victory without running a persuasive campaign, they are setting themselves up for a huge turnaround in their fortunes if their political adversaries run a persuasive campaign.  

If the BC NDP had run a good campaign or even not a horrible one, they would be in power today. If the federal Liberals think they can coast on their current lead they will also be setting themselves up for a big disappointment too if the other parties can get their acts together.  

The NDP has to look at why the BC NDP could not seal the deal in BC. The inability to go negative and highlight the negative aspects of the BC Liberal regime was one majour reason. The other majour reason was the party's inability to provide BC'ers with a compelling and convincing alternative vision for jobs and the economy. If the NDP or any other party can do those two things right, they will be setting themselves up for success.  

The experience in BC taught us a very, very, very, important lesson.  The NDP has got to come up with a compelling and convincing alternative vision for jobs and the economy. The NDP's lack of success is based on its failure to provide Canadians with a good reason to vote for the party.This even helps explain the party's difficulty in government, in places like Nova Scotia and Manitoba, where the party is not that popular and faces a good chance of defeat.

mark_alfred

I heard on the radio this morning that Trudeau, in response to the Senate scandal, is asking for rules for greater transparency on all politicians, whether it be the House of Commons or the Senate.  On the surface, this sounds good.  But, I'm always leery when politicians or influential members of society start lumping all politicians in with the sins of a few, especially when the "all politicians" are from an entirely different circumstance than the elitist and disgraceful circumstance of the few in the Senate. 

The idea of wanting to make it unappealing for the best and brightest to work in the public sphere seems to be a way to minimize the importance of government for our lives.  So, scrutiny must be super-high, and salaries must be low.  Or zero since, as the Fords have argued, no one on the public dime should have any gravy, or fries, for that matter, and only millionaire businessmen who can afford to denigrate politics should be entitled to run.

Anyway, I'm thus leery of Trudeau's pronouncement.  I feel it's simply the Senate that needs to be abolished, rather than a need to make all work by all politicians as uncomfortable as possible (specifically, all politicians who wish to do something besides cut cut cut).

Sean in Ottawa

Trudeau leans out to simplistic interpretations and policies. Would make a very dangerous PM.

socialdemocrati...

I'm for more transparency for all politicians.

But how is the question.

Trudeau has zero credibility. Sort of how he expects to sell our oil to foreign interests and develop every pipeline, and still be a champion of the environment.

At some point, you have to take a side.

NorthReport

Liberals are no slouches at the corruption game and don't like to be outdone by the Conservatives.  

Question: What's the difference between Canada's two right-wing parties?

Answer: Not much!

Trudeau probably wants him back in the Liberal Caucus as well.

Former Liberal senator convicted of fraud begins jail term

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/06/14/pol-weston-senator-raym...

 

 

 

Sean in Ottawa

Trudeau's position on Mac Harb does tell you all you need to know about his real views about accountability, entitlement and abuse.

mark_alfred

CBC article:  Conservatives accuse Justin Trudeau of profiting from not-for-profits

Trudeau should not have charged for speeches after becoming an MP.

janfromthebruce

Particularly speeches about youth and empowerment in which he was the Liberal critic for -

He has served as the Liberal Party's critic for Youth and Multiculturalism, Citizenship and Immigration, and Post Secondary Education, Youth and Amateur Sport.

If Trudeau is all about service to Canada one would hope that bringing his voice as Liberal party critic for Youth would mean that it was part of his critic job. It's not wrong to ask for costs associated with his attendance although the organizors should have a say in reimbursing responsible costs for travel, meals, accomodations.

What is out of line is the fact that he is paid well as an MP, and also inherited over a million dollars.

 

Geoff

Although I agree that Trudeau shouldn't have accepted the speaking fee, if this is the most burning issue we can think of for a serious politcal debate, we must be having a slow month.  Surely there's more on people's minds than this.

janfromthebruce

I agree except I know that Trudeau was not justing doing his youth and empowerment speech thingy but also doing partisan politics which was against the ethical guidelines. I know as I witnessed it at one of his speaking engagements and in a question and answer segment.

socialdemocrati...

Geoff wrote:

Although I agree that Trudeau shouldn't have accepted the speaking fee, if this is the most burning issue we can think of for a serious politcal debate, we must be having a slow month.  Surely there's more on people's minds than this.

I guess we could talk about Trudeau's various policy positions.

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Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

I guess we could talk about Trudeau's various policy positions.

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Oh, come on now. He's for the Keystone XL pipeline. He's for the Senate. And he's absolutely for the middle class. Aren't these enough policy positions for a Liberal scion?

Sean in Ottawa

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

Geoff wrote:

Although I agree that Trudeau shouldn't have accepted the speaking fee, if this is the most burning issue we can think of for a serious politcal debate, we must be having a slow month.  Surely there's more on people's minds than this.

I guess we could talk about Trudeau's various policy positions.

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I think they have the RCMP looking to see if they can find any.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

It's stuff like this : http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/parliament-hill-tour-guides-tol...

 

and the on going oppression of pot smokers that has been leaning toward the PLC come next election.

 

I'm resigning to the fact that corporate interests will always be priority #1 no matter who the next government of Canada is...So if that's a fact of life,I will gladly take the best of the worst and vote for the party that will at the very least decriminalize marijuana.

gadar

alan smithee wrote:

It's stuff like this : http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/parliament-hill-tour-guides-tol...

 

and the on going oppression of pot smokers that has been leaning toward the PLC come next election.

 

I'm resigning to the fact that corporate interests will always be priority #1 no matter who the next government of Canada is...So if that's a fact of life,I will gladly take the best of the worst and vote for the party that will at the very least decriminalize marijuana.

Thanks Alan. Quite a few disturbing bits in that article. Under this government the Charter of Rights have gone from being the law to just being a set of suggestions.

Quote:

Assure our guests that we appreciate the Charter for what it is, a great set of suggestions.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I know gadar..It's disgusting..I'm at my wits end...I truly don't give a shit who makes up the next government...The Harpercons have to go..at any and every cost.

janfromthebruce

I do and this is why:

CANADA NOW HAS 2 CONSERVATIVE PARTIES (Updated May 20, 2013)

Just a reminder of walking down memory lane, and so the tale begins

With Duffy, Wallin and Wright making the news, it might seem that now is a good time to call attention to Trudeau not believing in Senate reform.  Specifically, Trudeau believes it's just a matter of choosing good Senators, that is to say, that the Senate would be improved if Trudeau got to choose Liberal Senators.  Harper is a bit more progressive than Trudeau because Harper claims he would like to have an elected Senate.. though in the interim,  Harper's preferences are for Conservative Senators -- But this is small stuff compared to the multi-billion dollars worth of extraordinary similarities between Harper and Trudeau.

read on...

janfromthebruce
NorthReport

Conservatives are so happy about Trudeau's balking at refunding his outrageous speaking fees as it has taken the heat off their Senate scandals. Laughing

Mind you the Trudeau Liberals are implicated in the Senate mess as well.

gadar

alan smithee wrote:

I know gadar..It's disgusting..I'm at my wits end...I truly don't give a shit who makes up the next government...The Harpercons have to go..at any and every cost.

My thoughts exactly

NorthReport

Let's make sure the Liberals stay out, and vote out the Cnservatives as well, in order to keep out both the right-wing parties in Canada which only represent the one percenters

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/editorials/trudeau-was-wrong-t...

Sean in Ottawa

Well between them the Liberals and Conservatives represent more than just the 1%. They represent: military hawks, misogynists, bigots, the greedy, the hateful, the monarchists, the ignorant, the religious nuts, that flat earthers, all who hate science, math, the arts. The self loathers who want all wealth to go to the 1%, the people who believe in trickle down fantasies, and of course the 1%. I think that comes to more than 1%

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