The memetics and semiotics of the Poppy
October 26, 2007 - 1:03pm
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Syndicate
It's poppy time again, folks.
Yes, soon we'll be inundated with the annual orgy of official hypocrisy about war and remembrance. Politicians, generals, and the media will pitch in to reinforce some of the central myths of our neo-liberal age: humanitarian war, the idealistic soldier who dies to defend our freedoms, the inherently heroic nature of death.
It's all bullshit. And I refuse to participate in it.
Don't get me wrong. I have relatives who fought in wars, and some of them died. I have reason to honour their memory and the horrible sacrifices they made - and I do honour them.
My Canadian father and his two brothers fought in the Second Great War - you remember, the one that was supposed to save us from fascism? Big success that was.
Their father was in the First Great War. He didn't actually fight, but he was in the medical corps in France and was permanently scarred by what he saw there. That and the poison gas. And typhoid fever.
My war-bride mother lost a brother to the cold North Atlantic in 1942.
If anyone has a right to mourn and remember, it is we whose kin were maimed and killed in the service of the politicians and the generals. And yet our grief and our remembrance is hijacked every year by the same class of politicians and generals, in order to promote their own agenda. That agenda currently includes massively increased spending on military hardware, stepped-up campaigns to recruit more young men and women to go and kill strangers in another country, and aggressive public relations efforts designed to prove to Canadians that the mythic war on terror is a good thing to be involved in. Just like all those other great wars of yesteryear.
The Legion doesn't account to the public for what it does with the poppy money it raises. It appears from their website that the funds are spent on all aspects of the organization's "mission," which seems to include actively supporting the Red Fridays campaign, lobbying the federal government on various military-related issues, and raising further funds to buy Tim Horton doughnuts for Canadian soldiers in Kandahar.
The iconic poppy, once the wildflower symbol of the killing fields of Europe, is now copyrighted by the Legion, and has become the de rigueur statement of official political correctness and conformist orthodoxy every November (The rest of the year, remember, it's the yellow ribbon. Gotta support those troops.)
I know there are many "progressive" people who claim all sorts of personal reasons for displaying these symbols, mostly having to do with family connections to the military, present or past. I used to be one of them. I wore the plastic poppy on my lapel because, dammit, I wanted the world to know of my solidarity with the victims of war. It took me years to realize that the symbol I was displaying had become burdened with so much political baggage that any value it once had as a condemnation of war had been lost. It was instead just another cultural tool in the militarization of society. Worse, it had come to dishonour the memory of the war dead because of its appropriation by the warmongers themselves.
Every time I see a politician, a general, or a TV reporter wearing a poppy I am repulsed by their ostentatious effort to display concern for the victims of war, in apparent contrast to their equally ostentatious efforts - year-round - to sell us on war's merits. Indeed, the contrast is more apparent than real; the poppy has become an integral part of the sales pitch. It all fits in nicely with such messages as "if we don't stay in Afghanistan and finish the job, we will be dishonouring the memory of the brave men and women who...etc. etc."
And so today I would no sooner don a Legion poppy than slap a yellow ribbon sticker on my car. I will continue to remember and mourn the victims of wars, past and present. I will pause and shed a private tear for them on November 11. But I won't be wearing that infernal poppy ever again.
---------
See also:
Why I Don't Wear a Poppy
[ 26 October 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
[ 26 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]
Bravo, M. Spector.
I wear a white poppy.
The Canadian Legion is using legal threats to try to stop the British Peace Pledge Union from distributing white poppies in Canada.
I have some white poppies. If anyone in Ottawa would like one, PM me.
http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/white-news1.html
[ 26 October 2007: Message edited by: Paul Gross ]
Some babble backgrounders:
Why I don't wear a poppy
Why I don't wear a poppy II
White poppy campaign
Odd, I think the poppy is a symbol of death, not war. I remember death, not sacrifice. I remember people on both sides being blown to bits, shot to hamburger, gassed, incinerated.... Poppies grow on the graves of dead people, not just dead soldiers.
The selling of the poppy as a military symbol is troublesome, for sure. But this has the feel of a manufactured, posed, stance.
From Spector's link:
"I like to think that it would have been possible to open their eyes to reality if more people had stood peacefully opposed to their actions.'
I'm fairly sure that the Nazis and their soldiers had a firm grasp on reality. Killing people does that. The Allied soldiers, I am guessing, also knew what they were doing. It's hard to shoot someone and not understand the consequences of the action. It's hard to firebomb Dresden and not feel the heat.
More from that pompous bit of self serving shit Spector posted:
"Faced with the Nazi menace, what were we to do? Mahatma Gandhi, who also faced oppressive imperial forces during his lifetime, said, "Non-violence is a weapon of the strong.""
Non-violence is the weapon of dead people. Gandhi would have died. Dead people don't have the option of fighting for fuck all.
Good work by Clay McLeod. Use the Nazi example and then add this: "When faced with oppression and injustice, sometimes it can be easier to lash out in violent reaction - one that will further propagate the conflict, perhaps sowing seeds of future conflicts - than to react in a constructive, non-violent way that will actually resolve the conflict, giving rise to things such as true freedom and democracy."
So... the Nazis were reasonable people?
I'll be wearing a poppy.
[ 27 October 2007: Message edited by: Farmpunk ]
I was just like some of you lot when I was 14 too. A rotten, bitter punk who hated all authority and especially the military. My social studies teach was a colonel in the army and taught school on the side. I bought a surplus army jacket and painted a big black peace sign on the back, just to piss him off. It worked too, bigtime. It wasn't the peace sign that bothered him. It was the fact a civilian was wearing part of an army uniform. Apparantly that's some kind of an insult or something. So, if you're still in that mindset, and you really wanna piss on the graves of our veterans this Rememberance Day, go down to your local army surplus store and pick yourself up an army jacket. Me, I'll be wearing a poppy. I'm not 14 anymore.
[ 27 October 2007: Message edited by: The Wizard of Socialism ]
quote:Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
Me, I'll be wearing a poppy. I'm not 14 anymore.
Happy 15th birthday!
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
BTW, anyone who thinks that the Allies fought the Second World War in order to stop the Holocaust needs to get their head checked.
That said, I obviously think the Nazis needed to be stopped. But I won't wear war symbols from a Legion that promotes militarism and racism today.
Paul, I like that white poppy. Good for you!
Red poppies were politicized long before white poppies came on the scene.
quote:"I've had nasty calls from veterans. I've been harassed," Marya Nyland of the international peace organization Women in Black told the Globe and Mail. "They feel that the red poppy should be it. Why shouldn't there be room for both?"
Harvey Shevalier, a regional president with the Royal Canadian Legion, told the Globe and Mail that Nov. 11 should not be politicized, which is what he says supporters of the white poppy are doing.
Unfortunately, politicization of the red poppies happened long before the arrival of the white poppies. When someone criticizes those who don't wear poppies, no matter the reasons, the red poppy becomes political. When people feel obliged to wear red poppies because it's the right thing to do, even if it implies something they don't support, the poppies are politicized. The very semiotics of the poppy are political.
I used to wear a poppy when I was young. I used to go down to Gore Park in Hamilton to watch the veterans parade on November 11. I was moved.
But the number of wars have increased since then. And I though wearing a poppy would somehow help to bring peace to the world. It didn't! It won't.
I stopped wearing a poppy many years ago and I will only wear one when the military and their supporters take them off. I'm not holding my breath.
Someone else who disagrees with me. The Mayor of Solihull, England has thrown his full support behind this year's Poppy Appeal: quote:"Today our forces are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and are also serving in many other parts of the world. Whether or not we agree with the wars the fact is that the decision to be out there was not taken by the people on the ground. They are there to serve this country and it is up to us to support them to the best of our ability."
[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
quote:Originally posted by M. Spector:
Someone else who disagrees with me.
I don't have to go overseas to find people who disagree with me. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
I was just like some of you lot when I was 14 too. A rotten, bitter punk who hated all authority and especially the military.
That's not how I'd describe myself but I'm not going to argue this on an "ad feminam" level.
If it was just about WWII, I'd wear a poppy, because whatever the intentions of the rulers, that war put a stop to the Nazi state. But the poppies aren't just about WWII. They're about a whole series of wars and what they say is, "Their deaths were for something good and true and noble. And the deaths now are for something good and true." But they're not - (WWII aside) they died and are dying for one imperialist project after another, not just for nothing but for something worse than nothing. They died in the service of their oppressors, just as medieval serfs fought and died for their lords.
And actually (though I honour the good intentions of the people involved) this is why I won't wear a white poppy either. The people behind that campaign appear to describe the cause of war as poor methods of handling conflict. To me that's a dangerous cover-up of the real problem. The problem (I think) is imperialism, not a failure to deal with conflict in constructive ways.
I didn't begin to understand any of this when I was 14!
The red poppy is the traditional symbol used to honour our veterans, and as such I will wear it.
All of the questions raised by wearing of the white poppy are valid.
[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: Michael Hardner ]
quote:Originally posted by RosaL:
If it was just about WWII, I'd wear a poppy, because whatever the intentions of the rulers, that war put a stop to the Nazi state....the one in Germany, anyhoo.
The Iraq War put a stop to the Baathist state, whatever the intentions of our rulers.
The Afghanistan war put a stop to the Taliban state, whatever the intentions of our rulers.
quote:Originally posted by M. Spector:
...the one in Germany, anyhoo.
The Iraq War put a stop to the Baathist state, whatever the intentions of our rulers.
The Afghanistan war put a stop to the Taliban state, whatever the intentions of our rulers.
I'm not sure the Taliban or Sadam come close to being comparable to the Nazis and I'm not sure what followed their overthrow in either case is any sort of improvement. But it's a good point and I'll have to give it some thought.
Does anyone have a line on white poppies in Toronto?
M Spector: "Someone else who disagrees with me."
Wow, do English Mayors now frequent babble, or has M Spector been in communication with this person? I think I'll email him and find out.
quote:Originally posted by wage zombie:
Does anyone have a line on white poppies in Toronto?
Ditto...I'd like to find some too. I'm thinking about ordering some, but they likely won't get here on time. Should've thought of it a couple of weeks ago, I guess!
Veterans cherish a growing tradition
Richard Watts
Times Colonist
Sunday, October 28, 2007
Air cadets and other Cowichan Valley residents will be adorning the graves of veterans this weekend with small crosses decorated with poppies and, in a special Vancouver Island tradition, little sprigs of cedar.
It's a practice that began in the Cowichan Valley in 1926, led by local members of the Royal Canadian Legion.
But while the poppy tradition is well-known -- they're a reminder of the wild poppies that grew in the First World War battlefields of Flanders, Belgium -- the origins of the Cowichan cedar are almost lost.
They could be a stand-in for the green foliage of the poppy plant, a symbol of life or simply a tribute to the thriving cedars of Vancouver Island.
Victoria Times Colonist
quote:Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Wilfred Owen, 1893-1918
Just an old fashioned love song playing on the radiooooooooo.....
You hippys should be grateful. If it wasn't for our boys standing up to Fritz, we'd be singing "God Save the Kaiser"! If you godless commies had your way, we'd have a German monarch!
quote:Originally posted by Jingles:
You hippys should be grateful. If it wasn't for our boys standing up to Fritz, we'd be singing "God Save the Kaiser"! If you godless commies had your way, we'd have a German monarch!
well jingles, you finally revealed yourself completely, your stay will now be about as long as ams's will be.
Besides, by then we had already had a German Monarch for decades....
[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: Lard Tunderin' Jeezus ]
quote:Originally posted by Jingles:
You hippys should be grateful. If it wasn't for our boys standing up to Fritz, we'd be singing "God Save the Kaiser"! If you godless commies had your way, we'd have a German monarch!
I don't think having a German monarch is any worse than having an American monarch or a Canadian monarch, for that matter. The problem isn't the nationality of the monarch but the monarchy itself (speaking metaphorically as well as literally).
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] I think Jingles was joking.
quote:Originally posted by Michelle:
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] I think Jingles was joking.
heh. I like the technique even though I'm not good at recognizing it. But I've always wanted to respond to that argument! [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
*Ahem*
I Was Joking.
Thank you.
P.S. Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg would prolly get it.
Well, demonstrating the peace process here, maybe I'll wear both a red and a white poppy...maybe...no poppy at all. A pink poppy? Yea, why not.
I've never gotten off too much on the nobility of WW2. One must consider what led up to it. One should ask themselves why an important member of the German leadership would fly to Britain early in the war.
I refer to Rudolf Hess. I wonder what was rejected that might have saved millions of lives. The man's unjust, lifetime imprisonment adds to the suspicions.
You think his lifetime imprisonment was unjust? He ran Auschwitz. If the guy had nine lives like a cat and got nine life imprisonment sentences, it wouldn't be unjust.
Michelle, I think you're confusing him with Rudolf HцЯ.
But I agree that Hess got off lightly.
quote: He ran Auschwitz.
No. He was in a British prison by 1941, after parachuting into England for unofficial peace talks, long before Auschwitz opened.
He was a political functionary, and tried to end the war.
From Wiki:
quote:'My coming to England in this way is, as I realize, so unusual that nobody will easily understand it. I was confronted by a very hard decision. I do not think I could have arrived at my final choice unless I had continually kept before my eyes the vision of an endless line of children's coffins with weeping mothers behind them, both English and German, and another line of coffins of mothers with mourning children. "
—June 10, 1941 (from Rudolf Hess: Prisoner of Peace by his wife, Ilse Hess)
[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: Jingles ]
I think I'll remove this.
[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]
Oh! Sorry, I thought they meant the other guy. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] My mistake. Rudolf Hoess's last name is spelled a few different ways depending on whether you use the umlaut or the "double-s" character, so I thought he was the one bliter was talking about.
I should also have known, though, because Rudolph Hoess didn't get a life sentence - he was sentenced to death and was hanged in front of Auschwitz.
Apologies, bliter. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Accepted.
Thank you Jingles. I assumed that the Hess name was universally known - certainly by those who post here.
With the frequent, lightning reaction I'm just glad that I wasn't banned and that I'm able to reply.
OK, so we're still waiting for your reply.
Do you think Hess's sentence was unjust?
I did know about Hess. I just forgot about it because we were talking about Auschwitz a day or two ago, so Hoess's name was foremost in my mind. Again, sorry for the mix-up, but I don't think I was rude to you or anything, bliter.
As for Hess's sentence - I just read the Wikipedia article on him since I only knew his name and that he was the guy who spent the rest of his life as the only prisoner in an entire jail. I remember hearing about it when I was a kid, because he died when I was a teenager, but I didn't remember many details about him except that he was one of Hitler's inner circle.
According to the Wikipedia article, many people felt that his sentence was inhumane. I don't know what I think, frankly. He apparently tried to broker peace, and it sounds like it's pretty well undisputed that the guy was insane. And apparently he was mistreated by the guards and possibly murdered in the jail.
And yet...he was Hitler's deputy and was one of the inner circle who planned and carried out the Holocaust.
My answer is - I don't know whether it was unjust, but I probably won't be losing any sleep over it.
[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Wow, what is it about Remembrance Day that brings out the worst in so many so-called "progressives"? Not at all what I would have expected from Farmpunk.
quote:Originally posted by Farmpunk:
Non-violence is the weapon of dead people.
quote:
So... the Nazis were reasonable people?
I'll be wearing a poppy.
Holy crap.
The white poppy sounds like a good idea. OR there's the old "for every woman raped in every war" button in the shape of a poppy.
Michelle: I was talking to bliter. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
M. Spector
quote: OK, so we're still waiting for your reply.
Do you think Hess's sentence was unjust?
I almost asked, "To whom is your question addressed?"
I'd already referred to my perceived injustice toward Hess. I feel no differently.
I'll not deny the brilliance of Winston Churchill but think he was very possessive of the war.
So you have just outed yourself as a Nazi sympathizer.
quote:Originally posted by bliter:
I'd already referred to my perceived injustice toward Hess. I feel no differently.
I'll not deny the brilliance of Winston Churchill but think he was very possessive of the war.
Ernst von Weizsacker was sentenced during the trials, and he was one of the Oster conspirators whose warnings to Downing Street were ignored in 1938. There were Germans in the Wehrmacht waiting for the order to assassinate Hitler. One of them described Hitler as "evil incarnate" and that there was still time to kill him before it was too late. Chamberlain referred to them as "anti-Nazis" who weren't to be trusted.
My mother's family endured war rationings, the night raids and old Churchill's ramblings over the radio. My grandfather Albert, himself a coal miner then, didn't think very much of Winston Churchill since the coal miner's strike of the mid 1920's. Churchill suggested that the army be brought in and wobbling miners dealt with by machine guns. Churchill and Franco had certain things in common.
Sorry, Jas, I do fail to measure up to the high standards of progressive thought from time to time.
If you read my post you'll see that I think the poppy is a symbol of death. It's certainly been co-opted as a military symbol. But now the poppy issue has become, as Spector alluded to, an annual event where certain progressives get to jump up and down and talk about "semiotics" and "memetics". An interesting tactic to gain support for one's movement, no?
Does not wearing a poppy count as activism?
Cut the crap, M. Spector.
First you press me for a reply to a question not asked. Then you produce this deliberately offensive post:
quote: So you have just outed yourself as a Nazi sympathizer.
quote:Originally posted by M. Spector:
So you have just outed yourself as a Nazi sympathizer.
That's really offensive. Lots of people, including Winston Churchill, felt the sentence was unjust. So did his prosecutor. Doesn't make them Nazi sympathizers. It's not a black and white issue in this particular case. Please don't make thses sorts of comments about other babblers.
[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Hess was probably mentally ill.
I wasn't aware of this issue until very recently, and I'm still not sure where I come down on it. My perception of the red poppy was formed when I was very young, and until recently I never thought to question whether that perception was wrong.
Every year in elementary school everyone would gather for Rememberance Day and listen to a presentation from a WWII vet. The emphasis was always on "never again", and the veteran would speak about the horrors of war, seeing friends killed, etc. So to me, the red poppy and Rememberance Day always had an anti-war message to it. I'm still not sure if I had ascribed a meaning to the red poppy that it never had, or if the meaning has been perverted over time. I guess I have some more reading to do before I make up my mind.
Over time, the message "never again" seems to have slowly faded away with the memories of the horrors of WWII. It seems to have been replaced with the phrase "support our troops"; a phrase that by itself I support.
The problem I have with "support our troops" is the context in which (neo-)conservatives place it. When they say "support our troops", they usually mean at the same time "stop questioning our war".
Using our emotional attachment to our soldiers to send more soldiers to die in unjust wars. Perverse.
I'm torn on this one.
I completely understand people supporting and remembering the War Dead, I had grandfathers who were overseas, grandfathers, and a family friend who was part of the Belgian resistance (virtually unknown outside of Belgium), of course there were both of my grandmothers who took factory jobs during the war to 'help the cause'.
I also understand the desire to stop the war mongering that goes on, and the blanket "support the troops' 'remember our fallen' and 'shut up and stop questioning the fact that we need to go to war all the time'.
I've got a poppy now, but I'm torn every time I wear it. I know I'm being politicized and I hate that, but I also really want the discussion that's happening here (and happens every year) about it. It helps to bring it back to the original message of remembering the suffering of millions of people throughout the world and how they suffered during the war, and how we should be remembering the millions of people who are suffering right now because of war.
As for the 'never again' tag, it seems to be that has slowely been shifting from a 'never a war like that again' to a 'never a jewish holocaust again'. Of course both are correct, but the latter seems to spring to mind now instead of the former.
I wouldn't have a problem with the whole red poppy thing if it really was simply to remember those killed by the insane, unjust, and criminal actions of those in power. But it isn't. If they said "this is the time to remember all those killed in wars", that would be great. But by specifying military dead, and ending each sentence with "they died for freedom" or democracy, or whatever, it becomes propaganda.
Far more, orders of magnitude more, civilians die in wars than soldiers. But they don't count on remembrance day, because organizations like the Legion want exclusive ownership of it, using the symbology of the day as a means of self-promotion. Likewise, they act as the mullahs of historical correctiveness, challenging anyone or any organization which dare question veterans' claims of nobility for their actions during wartime.
And governments aren't interested in civilian victims of wars they start, because it kinda puts their actions and motives in question.
quote:Originally posted by Caissa:
Hess was probably mentally ill.So was Hitler.
And Hess was his right-hand man.
If a life sentence in prison is not justified against Hess, then the jails of the world should be emptied at once.
quote:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Caissa:
Hess was probably mentally ill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So was Hitler.
What a ridiculous assertion suggesting that historical atrocities and government brutality are the result of "mental illness".
Does that mean that all the citizens and the elite of Germany who supported fascism were "mentally ill" what about the support for fascism throughout the rest of the world, what about the support of state sanctioned violence today. What about the history of western Colonialism? Is this all a matter of "mental illness."
Does it seem a little strange to anyone else how millions of people who endured the hardship of two World Wars share a certain set of attitudes and beliefs about those times, yet somehow a few today can blithely assume they were ignorant, uneducated or brain-washed?
Somehow I guess that entire generation just wasn't as smart or as moral as that of today. How else could they have failed to appreciated how wrong they were to take the red poppy as an emblem of remembrance for all the sons, daughters, husbands and wives who died or were maimed for what they believed was a worthy cause.
Then again, from some posts you'd almost have to assume that past generations must have had no education in history, morals and ethics at all, as if it wasn't until 1980 or so that books were invented!
Thank heavens a few have been born today that are wise enough to show how so many were wrong...
(That last sentence was an example of irony, for those that didn't get it. Irony has been around for quite a few years as well...)
[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]
quote:Does it seem a little strange to anyone else how millions of people who endured the hardship of two World Wars share a certain set of attitudes and beliefs about those times, yet somehow a few today can blithely assume they were ignorant, uneducated or brain-washed?
Somehow I guess that entire generation just wasn't as smart or as moral as that of today. How else could they have failed to appreciated how wrong they were to take the red poppy as an emblem of remembrance for all the sons, daughters, husbands and wives who died or were maimed for what they believed was a worthy cause.
Then again, from some posts you'd almost have to assume that past generations must have had no education in history, morals and ethics at all, as if it wasn't until 1980 or so that books were invented!
Thank heavens a few have been born today that are wise enough to show how so many were wrong...
(That last sentence was an example of irony, for those that didn't get it. Irony has been around for quite a few years as well...)
Bill, how right you are.
It's ridiculous to apply today's values to the past. Lincoln for example has lately been portrayed as someone who championed the equality of African Americans. In actuality he was, by today's standards, a complete racist.
quote:Originally posted by Wild Bill:
Does it seem a little strange to anyone else how millions of people who endured the hardship of two World Wars share a certain set of attitudes and beliefs about those times, yet somehow a few today can blithely assume they were ignorant, uneducated or brain-washed?
Somehow I guess that entire generation just wasn't as smart or as moral as that of today. How else could they have failed to appreciated how wrong they were to take the red poppy as an emblem of remembrance for all the sons, daughters, husbands and wives who died or were maimed for what they believed was a worthy cause.
Then again, from some posts you'd almost have to assume that past generations must have had no education in history, morals and ethics at all, as if it wasn't until 1980 or so that books were invented!
Thank heavens a few have been born today that are wise enough to show how so many were wrong...
(That last sentence was an example of irony, for those that didn't get it. Irony has been around for quite a few years as well...)
[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: Wild Bill ]
That kind of argument would preclude criticism of witch-burning, religious persecution, persecution of homosexuals, racial segregation, a belief that women belong in the home and girls aren't good at math - well, I could go on and on...
In any case, there was a minority who held views like mine even then. I can supply some examples, if you like.
[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]
[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]
quote:Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
What a ridiculous assertion suggesting that historical atrocities and government brutality are the result of "mental illness".Nobody's asserting anything of the kind.
In the middle of a discussion about the appropriateness of Hess's life sentence, Caissa observed that Hess was "probably" mentally ill. I took that as an assertion of a factor to be taken into account in assessing the sentence. I certainly did not take it as an attempt to advance a theory that Nazism was all just the product of mental illness.
In my view, Caissa's assertion in no way diminishes Hess's moral responsibility for war crimes (I don't even know if that was Caissa's intent). Nor does the fact that Hitler "probably" suffered from mental illness diminish his responsibility. Though it is probably an argumentum ad Hitlerum, that was my point; Hess was no less guilty than Hitler.
[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
Hess no less guilty than Hitler?
An overload of hyperbole there. Hitler did not, early in the war, fly into enemy territory and place himself in great danger of being shot.
For a double moral standard, consider the treatment of Dr. Werner Von Braun who has, no doubt, had considerable assistance cleaning up his biography:
excerpt:
quote: Von Braun is well known as the leader of what has been called the “rocket team” which developed the V–2 ballistic missile for the Nazis during World War II. The V–2s were manufactured at a forced labor factory called Mittelwerk. Scholars are still reassessing his role in these controversial activities.
quote:Originally posted by Wild Bill:
Does it seem a little strange to anyone else how millions of people who endured the hardship of two World Wars share a certain set of attitudes and beliefs about those times, yet somehow a few today can blithely assume they were ignorant, uneducated or brain-washed?
Somehow I guess that entire generation just wasn't as smart or as moral as that of today. How else could they have failed to appreciated how wrong they were to take the red poppy as an emblem of remembrance for all the sons, daughters, husbands and wives who died or were maimed for what they believed was a worthy cause.
While it is important to historicize cultural symbols under critique (and it should be "remembered" that World War I was hardly without its contemporary critics) and equally important to trace its historical and contextual evolution (again, very few Canadians and almost no non-Jewish Canadians even knew about the holocaust before 1944, so such noble motivation holds little truck) it is equally important, as M. Spector has surely done, to demonstrate that the poppy of today is emphatically not the poppy of 1918. It is an utterly new creature, and those who push it today claiming it is a symbol of nostalgic honour and bravery (untainted by charges of imperialism and self-interest as it would have been at all points in its lifetime) are not only doing a disservice to its historical legacy, but are wilfully abusing whatever moral worth the symbol still possesses.
Condemning the poppy has nothing to do with judging the immorality or naivety of past generations, but rather concerns righteous criticism of state propaganda for the purposes of war--something no progressive should support. Those who claim that wearing a poppy now does not contribute to the violent jingoism and false emotion that fuels current imperialist and colonialist warfare are emptying a symbol meant for peace of its ethos and shanghaiing it for murder, rape and bloodshed.
[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: Catchfire ]
quote:Originally posted by bliter:
Hitler did not, early in the war, fly into enemy territory and place himself in great danger of being shot.I ask you, would a guilty man do that?
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
There were psychologists who examined the war criminals during the Nuremburg trials. The verdict was that most of them were completely sane, well educated pillars of society before joining the SS. Many were family men.
Mental illness is not synonymous with insanity.
quote:In the middle of a discussion about the appropriateness of Hess's life sentence, Caissa observed that Hess was "probably" mentally ill. I took that as an assertion of a factor to be taken into account in assessing the sentence. I certainly did not take it as an attempt to advance a theory that Nazism was all just the product of mental illness.
Let's leave out questions of the validity of biopsychiatry.
Let's all leave out questioning the validity of psychiatric diagnostics and nosology.
Finally let's forget about the impossibility of doing a post-hoc historical diagnostics.
What we have left is a common cultural narrative in which "mental illlness' is equated with violence,seemingly inhuman and exceedingly violent brutality. The assumption is then that the violence and brutality unleased by the leaders of the Nazis, be it Hess or Hitler is the result of unbalanced or irrational minds i.e. mentally ill. This of course ignores the majority of violence and brutality which that is carried out by so called normal people and also ignores the fact that most diagnosed as "mentally ill" are not violent.
Okay, they were highly anti-social family men, bureaucrats and pillars of society before joining the SS. But apparently they weren't insane.
I'm no psychologist, but those people were apparently too calculating and cunning to be considered psychopaths killing randomly and uncrontrollably. Apparently they went home at the end of the day and carried on like nothing was wrong. They kissed their wives, made more babies, and they helped their kids with homework. They could have been extricated from the jaws of justice and blended in with Americans and Canadians. In fact, many of them did just that with the aid of the Church, western governmental officials and the OSS/CIA.
M. Spector: Hess was no less guilty than Hitler.
Bliter: Hitler did not, early in the war, fly into enemy territory and place himself in great danger of being shot.
M.Spector: I ask you, would a guilty man do that?
This is so silly, that I have to wonder if I'm attempting to communicate with a sock puppet.
On the topic, no, I won't be wearing a poppy.
quote:Originally posted by Michelle:
Ditto...I'd like to find some too. I'm thinking about ordering some, but they likely won't get here on time. Should've thought of it a couple of weeks ago, I guess!
You know, I saw them being sold at the Toronto Anti-War demo... I don't really know where they came from or how to get them though. Try seeing if you can find someone who has them here:
http://www.acp-cpa.ca/
War poppy-ganda in the schools quote:November 8, 2007 - A St. Joseph Secondary School teacher who spent time in Afghanistan as an Army reservist will speak at the school’s Remembrance Day ceremony tomorrow.
Ryan Kenny will talk about his recent experiences and then students will see a slide show about about the origins of Remembrance Day and Canada's military history, a video documentary, and an interpretation by the drama club.
White poppy honours dead without glamourizing war
Graham Lettner, Opinion Staff
The Gateway, University of Alberta
7 November 2007
quote:This November, I’m not wearing a red poppy. The poppy I’ll be wearing is a homemade white poppy, cut out of a blank cue card, pinned down by the pin and black centre of last year’s red poppy. I don’t take deviation from a societal custom as ingrained as wearing a red poppy for Remembrance Day lightly, but there are more than enough good reasons to wear white, not red.
The white poppy has a history of peace behind it. The Co-operative Women’s Guild in England created the white poppy in 1933 to symbolize the belief that there are better ways to resolve conflict than by killing strangers. This is always an appropriate statement to make—especially at a time of year when society reflects on past and current wars.
The white poppy also protests the obnoxiously repressive actions of the Royal Canadian Legion. White poppies used to be sold in Edmonton at Earth’s General Store on Whyte avenue—but not this year, after the Royal Canadian Legion threatened to sue the owner of the store over trademark infringement.
That the Legion would be so bold and forceful in stifling scrutiny and critical rethinking of our society’s customs is beyond distasteful. Individuals are free to challenge the status quo and to express new perspectives. Society’s capacity for freedom of thought is tremendously more valuable than its coerced adherence to tradition. That the Legion would seek to curb the freedom that its members ostensibly fought for is the pinnacle of irony.
The red poppy no longer speaks to me or my values. To today’s society, it symbolizes the glory of fallen soldiers, the valour and sacrifice of those who served in past wars. I believe in none of these ideals.
On the contrary, with these Remembrance Day distortions removed, war can be seen as it is: a horrifying mess of propaganda, deceit, and suffering. Millions of people never sacrificed their lives, but rather had their lives torn from them while they kicked and screamed in vain. The righteous sentiment of Remembrance Day doesn’t mix well with the realities of war.
Fortunately, the white poppy speaks to what society has been mute about: namely, that war is disgusting in all its forms, and that all of humanity is responsible for actively creating a better way of resolving differences between peoples.
Finally, I wear the white poppy as a tribute to my grandparents who all served in WWII, either in Europe or on the home front. My grandfathers, who have both now died, spoke hardly a word about their experiences at the front. I wish they never had to be participants in the war; their lives were lessened for it.
In a way the red poppy can’t, the white poppy reminds me of the need to put the experience of war out of reach of our society, to give everyone lives untainted by war — something my grandparents didn’t receive. I find the red poppy to be a symbol of our inability to move beyond the outmoded ways of thinking that led our world to war in the first place.
[ 08 November 2007: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
The more I think of this, the more it irks me.
I think we would be honouring our veterans by showing the poppy that they, in most cases, want us to wear - the traditional one.
It doesn't say anything else that you don't want it to. You may, as I do, wear a peace button beside the poppy.
Sometimes a poppy is just a poppy.
M.Spector, your linky is broken. Good article, though.
Thanks, Davis. I've fixed it now. I normally always test them after posting, but this time I got called away from the computer.
quote:Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
It doesn't say anything else that you don't want it to.Hey, now we really are getting into semiotics! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Michael, how exactly do other people know what you want the red poppy to "say"? How do you limit it to saying the things you want it to say without letting it say a whole lot of other stuff besides?
If I wear a red poppy for the sole purpose of expressing solidarity with the beleaguered poppy farmers of Afghanistan, do you think there's a chance my message might be misconstrued?
quote:Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
The more I think of this, the more it irks me.
I think we would be honouring our veterans by showing the poppy that they, in most cases, want us to wear - the traditional one.
It doesn't say anything else that you don't want it to. You may, as I do, wear a peace button beside the poppy.
If "honouring our veterans" means, "let us mourn those who fought and died as pawns of imperialist conflict for what they thought was a noble cause", I will definitely wear a poppy.
If it means, "let us honour those who fought and died for our freedom", I won't wear a poppy - that's just echoing and perpetuating the lies of those responsible for their deaths. If it was only WWII that was in question, I wouldn't really have a problem. Unfortunately, it isn't. I'd be happy to honour the WWII veterans but it seems impossible to do so without supporting what seems to me to be a particularly horrible - and deadly - kind of propaganda.
[ 08 November 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]
Bravo to the writer of this thread for that column like explanation.
I wear a white poppy to honour and remember those who suffered during the war. I am reminded of JS Woodsworth who bravely refused to vote for war. Do we have any of his ilk in Parliament today?
I also do not believe the Allies fought to stop the Holocaust. It can be argued many helped some of the surviving victims at the end of the war but what of Canada's own refusal to allow in Jewish refugees? That makes me sad to be a Canadian - just as all the other actions - the deportation of the Japanese and more.
I loathe the fact that November 11 has become a love in for all things military!
quote: If I wear a red poppy for the sole purpose of expressing solidarity with the beleaguered poppy farmers of Afghanistan, do you think there's a chance my message might be misconstrued?
On the other side of the coin, wearing a poppy clearly means you hate the environment on a lot of levels.
Disabled veterans' lawyers to appeal pension suit to Supreme Court of Canada
quote:OTTAWA - The Conservative government has a moral obligation to settle a $5.2-billion class-action lawsuit brought by a dwindling number of mentally disabled war veterans who say Ottawa mismanaged their finances, their lawyer said Thursday.
Raymond Colautti says the Supreme Court of Canada has been asked to hear an appeal of the case, which has been dragging its way through the legal system for eight years.
"Isn't it time for the government to take action and give at least some measure of justice and compensation to these veterans?" he said in a conference call from his Windsor, Ont., office.
Ending the decades-old fight should be a priority for a prime minister and government that champions veterans as part of their political mantra, Colautti said after announcing the high court had been petitioned to hear the case.
Following the First and Second World Wars and the Korean conflict, the federal government took over the management of the finances of as many as 30,000 veterans whose traumatic experiences on the battlefield left them emotionally incapable of caring for themselves.
The money was held in trust and paid to the soldiers' estates on their deaths, but only what was originally deposited and only if there was a will. The heirs of mentally disabled soldiers who passed away without a will received nothing.
I remember a VA person coming to the house after dad died when I was 14. He promised all kinds of help to my mother and me, a veteran's orphan at the time. Nada, nothing. My brothers and I had to help mum pay off the mortgage on their war time house. It was a worthless shack my dad fixed up in the late 1940's. He bought railway jacks and dug out for a stone basement under it with a hand shovel one summer. Mum was pregnant, and there was no running water, just a backhouse and five miles to a water fawcet. The mill would layoff weeks before Christmas on time every year until the mini-boom Korean war years. It was as if Canada had been bombed to smithereens and not Europe.
They can shove remembrance day up their fat stoogecratic asses in Ottawa for all I care. We put flowers on dad's grave today. I know he would have said the same thing.
I see no problem wearing the red poppy. The way I see it the poppy itself should have nothing to do with militarism. To me it should have that "never again" (should we have such a violent wars as WW1 and 2) and "never forget" (that we did) association with it.
The problem with militarism comes from many non-poppy related symbols. There's a difference between the poppy, and a lot of the other celebrations of the "support our troops" variety (which really means, support our wars). And here's where those who support the "never again" and "never forget" themes shouldn't be afraid to wear the poppy just because they don't want to be associated with that type of militarism - even though that militaristic view tries to appropriate the poppy for it's own purposes. So I don't really see any need for the white poppy if there's a push back to reclaim what the poppy is really supposed to mean. I think those who try to hijack Remembrance Day ceremonies for modern day militaristic purposes, are usually pretty blunt about it, and pretty much say "support our troops" (which still really means, support our wars) and people who oppose that shouldn't have any fear about calling them out on their political appropriation of the Poppy.
And they are not afraid to wear a white poppy and will volunteer an explanation as to why they wear it. Besides, where is individuality represented when everyone wears a red poppy? Some people are going to wonder, Hey, what's with this white poppy thing? Because I don't believe their kids should all don green kakis and army boots in unison for the sake of colour coordination. They should say to themselves, If I'm going to fight for freedom, then who will I be killing and why? And whose freedom warrants the killing?
quote:When I see a poppy, I think of Flanders Field, or the Somme. Total slaughter, needless and disgusting. Born, not from the need to preserve freedom or country, but to preserve the wealth and power of the few. Millions, mere pawns to be sacrificed.
I recently read a paper by Johnothan F. Vance called "Remembering Armageddon" which discussed the memorials for Canada's war dead from First World War.
Vance writes that "They [The Canadians] believed passionately that the fallen had died to save Christianity and western civilization from another dark age, and that the men and women who answered the country's call were ennobled by the experience. At the same time, the nations was raised to a higher level of existence because of it's sacrifice at Flanders. Whether these assumptions would stand up in the cold light of critical enquiry was irrelevant. For that generation, at that time, the belief was that their loss had meaning and purpose enabled them to cope with grief."
I think this probably true for what's going on in Afghanistan as well.
The sad reality about world war 1 especially - a regional conflict gone bad (said sardonically) and then taken globally) - if I may explain it so briefly and I am not certain one can ever explain war briefly other tan the one word evil - was the needless loss of so many young Canadians in the prime of their life who had no bloody (pun very much intended) notion of what they were getting into. If one looks at the Maritime for example, (where I grew up), I had several uncles who died in that conflict and they doubtless joined like so many because it was a way to earn some money. The same is true of course of WW2 but for WW1, the colonials, as Canadians were known,. were used by the British in the worst areas and zones. One wonders about the comparison of that now to Kandahar province?
I too think of "In Flanders Fields" as a mass of the bloody ruthless killing of young men in their prime. I wear a white poppy I found a few years ago in Ireland (someone had brought it from England and they did not want it or any poppy but then Ireland was neutral during the war.)
beardless of semantics, it has become a politically correct symbol and even in England and Ireland, there is a lively spirited debate over whether news readers should wear poppies on air. Many regular folk think not. Or they suggest it be up o the beliefs of the reader her or himself. That may well depend on who is paying his or her salary however.
I know I won't wear a Red poppy even though for years I did, thinking I was doing my part not to forget the horrors of war. We all remember war differently and many of us have little recall of war period save for the stories we heard from family members. My gramndmother was Irish - as in born in Ireland - and opposed the war - but she did work as a nurse for the red Cross in London in WW2 and she told me some horror stories - and let's face it, while there are some inspiring, happy endings, most are the opposite. Young men dying, losing limbs and lovers, families separated. I won't even discuss the Jewish heritage of my family. Yet another reason to remember and pledge NEVER Again!! What does the Poppy mean to the holocaust - does anyone even think of it on Rememberence Day - do politicians speak of it in their speeches? Very few, as I can recall - very few. They do not want to recall the atrocity of not allowing in enough Jewish families so that more than necessary died.
And what of the legion - how does it account for its activities. about 10 years ago, th Champlain Mall - largest Mall in the Atlantic Provinces, probably maybe east of Toronto actually since I cannot think of any in Mtl that are as large - refused to permit the Legion to sell the poppies outside. The hue and cry was enormous and before long, the mall administration - who blamed their new manager , a woman from Quebec - (you can imagine the comments THAT brought about in a province where linguistic politics always simmers below the surface). Yet, does anyone ever see the accounts of the Legion - which is a vast lobbyist machine. Yes, it is mainly to serve aging vets but it is also an organization where in at least many Maritime communities, people go to drink and have a good time on the weekends. This is what the poppy is providing? I have admittedly been to the Legion on a Friday night and yes, there were a few vets there - my aging uncle for one - but they did not need the poppy sales to keep going.
Many people who join the Legion are not veterans of any war - except perhaps one of alcoholism - (I once ran an addictions center so I ponder these thoughts now and then) and so does the poppy help the veterans? I for one would like to see the books on this. I am certain that most people - especially the hard working men and women who operate these small legions - mean well and have the veterans' needs at heart when they are out collecting money - and I do think veterans talking to classrooms is not such a terrible thing. At least they can describe the horrors of war. I had a family friend who my grandmother cared for - who served in one of the wars (I was too young a child to pay attention) - and he would get drunk and he had suffered horribly in Hong Kong and he would talk about that to anyone who would listen - five year old child, blue wall in the kitchen , my 7 month old Siamese kitten, anyone.I can still recall some of the awful descriptions he gave, thing no 6 or 7 year old should have heard. Chopping off of heads and so forth. He needed help and where was the legion for him? We tried to aid him and did by providing a home and comforting environment and people who looked out for him - medically and otherwise. The Legion was a place he went and came home inebriated from. They did not provide counseling or assistance in medical care that he badly needed. That, we had to provide, even though he was was a cousin of my grandmother's whose own family gave up him. She just refused to let him go.
He is deceased now and I do think of him and several other uncles who served in the war. I do not need to wear any symbol or utter any slogan to do so. There are more personal ways of doing that and if the poppy money does go to help vets even on November 11 to have a good meal (though in the community I grew up in, it was often a drunken affair where all the horrors were relived. Is that service?)
Just some random thoughts and I am sorry if they seem scattered. Will I go to the cenotaph? If it meant that vets were truly remembered and the real meaning of war discussed, yes but I fear that will not be the case.
Thank you, JaneyCanuck, that was remarkable.
Many small town Legions are in debt and have difficulty maintaining their buildings.
Aside from Veteran's activities, Legions are major supporters of children's sports leagues and other community activities. They are great supporters of free dinner events for the disabled and institutionalised.
Poppy sales generate revenue for more than Veteran's issues or lobbying.
I just came back from Europe and never saw any indication that the Euros had any interest in Rememberance Day but in an airport hotel,I met a young Canadian stewardess wearing a poppy. I asked her why and she replied that her grandfather had fought for Canada in WWII and she would always remember.
quote:Far more, orders of magnitude more, civilians die in wars than soldiers. But they don't count on remembrance day, because organizations like the Legion want exclusive ownership of it, using the symbology of the day as a means of self-promotion. Likewise, they act as the mullahs of historical correctiveness, challenging anyone or any organization which dare question veterans' claims of nobility for their actions during wartime.
The Tyee took this approach in one of their surprisingly many Rememberence Day articles.
Remember the Brave Civilians, Too
quote: If the only things we remember on Remembrance Day are men and women in the armed forces who sacrificed unto death in past wars, we are cheating a great many others who did the same, and we're missing the overarching lesson.
It is a short article, and it doesn't even scratch the surface on the magnitude of the suffering and deaths of innocent civilians in all wars. These facts are often scratched from the history books, as I'm finding in my research of Bomber Command over Berlin during World War II. The Tyee article is short, and rather passive, but I guess at least one media source is recognizing these glaring omissions from many history texts.
John Pilger: quote:On Remembrance Day 2007, the great and the good bowed their heads at the Cenotaph. Generals, politicians, newsreaders, football managers and stock-market traders wore their poppies. Hypocrisy was a presence. No one mentioned Iraq. No one uttered the slightest remorse for the fallen of that country....
[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]
bump
Anyone know where to get white poppies in Vancouver?
quote:Originally posted by wage zombie:
Anyone know where to get white poppies in Vancouver?
Or Winnipeg?
quote:Originally posted by genstrike:
Or Winnipeg?
Or Victoria?
Now that I live in teh U.S. we don't ahve the poppy wearing tradition here and I have to say that come this time of year, I sort of miss it.
I don't consider it a political statement.
I should also point out that when you buy a poppy, you're contributing money to the Legion which goes to support veterans and that, to me, is worth putting a few bucks in a jar.
quote:Originally posted by Star Spangled Canadian:
Now that I live in teh U.S. we don't ahve the poppy wearing tradition here and I have to say that come this time of year, I sort of miss it.
I don't consider it a political statement.
If you think "they died for our freedom" is a piece of propaganda designed to justify and rationalize past and future wars fought by the poor on behalf of those who rule them, then remembrance day and all its associated paraphernalia is very political indeed.
The poppy is something that means different things to different people. I am not sure why so many people are having a hard time with this and I think that it is overly simplistic to assume that those who don't wear a poppy don't give a damn about those who were forced off into a war at a tender age or that those who do are participants in a propaganda campaign in favour of war.
If you want to know what a poppy means to a person wearing it just ask--but be prepared that they may not be able to condense that down to 10 words or less. And that is okay.
Not everything has to be a single soundbite.
To say that we remember people who went out to fight for freedom should not be so loathsome-- this is what they were told and this is what they believed-- and therefore this was part of their motivation-- and many were given no choice in the matter. That participation in a war can be misguided is another matter that has a lot less bearing on the guy sent to the front line. That many of these people were working people and that social class played a role in who went, and what their experience was is another fact that should not be forgotten.
If anything from this discussion, we could agree that those who wear or do not wear a poppy have many different reasons and why not ask each person theirs rather than assume that they have become some kind of imperialist by putting one on.
I have a lot of respect for those writing their personal reasons on both sides here and a lot less respect for the simplistic moralists who seem to want to lecture to others on the form of expression they should take and predefine what that means. Many symbols get co-opted and some will always want to benefit from that -- but this is not a reason to allow them exclusivity in the discussion. I certainly do not want the memory of war and those who died to become the exclusive domain of those who would happily repeat the exercise and appreciate those who both express that they remember while arguing for peace.
I wear one.
But then I am a veteran of Canada's armed Forces.
The simple fact is you all have a choice because of some others who also would wear it today.
If they hadn't died so we could argue its significance.
...just as Jesus Christ died so we could enjoy eternal salvation.
I'll be wearing a poppy while reading the honour roll of those who died in the two world wars who attended our church. The list is indeed lengthy...
quote:Originally posted by Michelle:
Ditto...I'd like to find some too. I'm thinking about ordering some, but they likely won't get here on time. Should've thought of it a couple of weeks ago, I guess!
I FORGOT AGAIN. I was going to order a few boxes this year to hand out! (Not sell, of course...wouldn't want the Legion's lawyers coming after me...)
quote:Originally posted by Michelle:
(Not sell, of course...wouldn't want the Legion's lawyers coming after me...)They'd go after you anyway.
quote:Originally posted by M. Spector:
They'd go after you anyway.
I thought this post was relevant: Nice post. I thot the Legion supported freedom of speech. Didn’t their veterans fight so that we could wear ANY poppy? Or did they just fight for RED poppies? Did my uncle die in WWII for RED opoppies only? I don’t think so. The RCL glorifies all ALL wars, and wants the monopoly to do so. So a plague on their house!
but also taking up an arts and craft moment - design and wear your own. Or throw the red poppy into bleach and let it sit as the colour bleeds out.
One way to speak out and simultaneously support peace and provide a political meaning to both - respect those who died and promote peace - is wear both. It sure would evoke a conversation.
Getting long, continue here.