Is #MeToo worsening the divide between men and women?

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Pondering

I realized what is getting to me here. The men present seem to be looking to women for the solution when it is men that are the perpetrators. Any solution proposed is then shot down.

I think the solution is exactly what is happening. If the grapevine suggests there is a problem an independent investigation is carried out the results of which are presented to the individual who is free to deny any accusations.

It seems to be working better than any other approach so I'm good with it.

Rev Pesky

Pondering wrote:

When you start with the attitude that porn can't be defined you are playing semantics not discussing sexual misconduct and violence towards women.

A lot more minds than mine have been unable to identify 'porn'. Back when, one of the definitions was that you could identify pornography because it was 'without 'redeeming social importance'. The makers of the various 'Beach Blanket Bingo' movies in the USA protected themselves from prosecution by having one of the female characters get pregnant and then die. Thus, after showing us that sex caused pregnancy, and pregnancy caused death, they could run the rest of the movie as they wanted.

The problem isn't that there is no dictionary definition of 'pornography'. The problem is identifying what does, and what doesn't, match the definition.

Here's a link to a site which documents the history of the USA Supreme Court's cases dealing with pornography:

Prosecuting Obscenity 

further from Pondering:

It is my opinion from anecdotal evidence that porn, at least what we consume as porn now, has a negative impact on human sexuality.

There's a reason science doesn't proceed by anecdotal evidence. It's because it's very often wrong. I posited a test in my last post, that is, comparing rape statistics between countries that have either dissimilar levels of legal tolerance of pornography, or similar levels of same. 

In the one case, according to your anecdotal evidence, the country with the greater tolerance should have a higher level of sex crime, and in the other, the levels should be much the same.

I know this is difficult because of reporting differences, legal differences, etc., but in examining similar countries with similar cultures it should be possible to test your theory.

My own quick test was between the Netherlands and the USA because the Netherlands has a history of tolerance towards porn. If you check, you'll find, as I did, that rape stats for the Netherlands are much lower than for the USA, which is certainly counter to your anecdotal evidence.

quizzical

 i see this thread about the mens, by the mens, for the mens is still.

Pondering why engage? their narcissism is being fed.

 

Pondering

You are still nitpicking. However you define porn, it is free and widely available.  There is no need for a legal definition in order for people, particularly men, to make judgements for themselves on what is and isn't a positive influence in their lives and in the lives of the people they love. 

Although the laws on drinking and driving and public smoking changed that was linked to changing public opinion as well. 

For every article I can bring up supporting climate change you could come up with another "debunking" it. Same goes for porn and prostitution. We could have a war of the links. I'm not interested. In my opinion, knowing the statistics not just on the extreme of rape, but on the frequency of sexual harassment, men should be just as concerned as women. 

Paladin, I apologize if I took your comment wrong.  The topic of the thread is abrasive as are some of the comments.

Rev Pesky

Pondering wrote:

You are still nitpicking. However you define porn, it is free and widely available.  There is no need for a legal definition in order for people, particularly men, to make judgements for themselves on what is and isn't a positive influence in their lives and in the lives of the people they love. 

It wasn't me who brought up the issue of porn. If I remember correctly, it was you, trying to make a point about the consumption of porn and sexual attitudes.

All I did was point out that before you can arrive at any conclusion, you first have to define what is and what isn't porn, then show that consumption of porn is in direct ratio to sexual criminality. You haven't done either.

I'll give another for instance. Japan and the USA. Japan has a large porn industry, yet reported rape cases in the USA are 27 times that of Japan (per capita).

What that says to me is that there must be cultural differences between the USA and Japan that are more important in terms of sexual crimes than pornography is. Finding out what those differences might be, and how they affect overall sexual crime incidence, could be a step in the right direction. 

 

Pondering

Yes, I brought up the issue of porn including fashion porn. I provided a definition. I don't have to "prove" anything before arriving at a conclusion certainly not to you. That you aren't convinced is not my problem.  

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

#MeToo Means Men Need to Step Up for Change

Women have done all the heavy lifting in bringing sexual assault and harassment to light.

Pondering

Thank-you

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

SocialJustice101 wrote:

Pondering, that's a very surpising view from a progressive.  Do you have any science to back it up?

I think the easiest way for men to calm down their sex drive and behave like gentlemen is to watch pornography.   Men behave more like pigs if their urges are not satisfied.

No, men are more likely to behave like pigs when they're relatively assured they can get away with it.

As are women, btw - it's just that we're unlikely to avoid censure or other negative consequences for our actions.

Can we just stop accepting the idea that this is about men's "urges" needing to be "satisfied"? Nobody's "urges" NEED to be satisfied. That kind of thinking ties into misogynist culture in that men are simple creatures who just can't help themselves and women are responsible - whether it's on a screen or in person - for preventing them from being violent.

You know who prevents men from being violent? Themselves. Any other answer is bullshit. Even my dog has better self-control than we give the average male credit for.

robbie_dee

While this case originated prior to the rise of the #metoo movement, the way it was mishandled by UBC, ultimately resulting in Galloway receiving $167,000 in damages (but not reinstatement, which he waived) presents a timely example of the cost that must be paid when highly public allegations are made, but ultimately don't pan out the way they were initially presented.

Gary Mason,"'Author Steven Galloway breaks silence: 'My life is destroyed'," Globe and Mail, June 8, 2018

Quote:

Steven Galloway’s life the past two years-plus can be summarized aptly: a brutal firestorm. It’s included near-constant suicidal thoughts as he’s confronted the prospect of bankruptcy, being shunned by swaths of a literary community of which he was once stood at the shining centre and, worst of all, being depicted as a sexual predator.

While he takes responsibility for certain actions that preceded his firing as the chair of the University of British Columbia’s creative writing department, the acclaimed author also believes that what happened to him is unconscionable – not just the abysmal, ham-fisted way in which he believes the university handled the allegations levelled against him, but also the fact that charges he’s insisted all along were groundless have left his reputation in ruins.

“It’s darn near killed me,” Mr. Galloway told The Globe and Mail in the first interview he has granted since his ordeal began in the fall of 2015. “And truthfully, I still think about killing myself on a daily basis. I just don’t see much of a future for myself. I’m trying. I’m fighting it. But it’s hard.”

On Friday, an arbitrator awarded Mr. Galloway $167,000 stemming from a grievance launched by the UBC faculty association over the former chair of the creative writing department’s firing in the summer of 2016. The arbitrator found that certain communication by the university disseminated at the time of Mr. Galloway’s dismissal contravened his privacy rights and caused harm to his reputation.

While Mr. Galloway is satisfied with the award, it is a bittersweet victory. He says it doesn’t give him back the single greatest thing he lost in this whole saga - his name. And he believes that’s something that’s gone forever. He insists that the allegations of sexual misconduct made by a student he had a two-year affair with were always untrue and that many of the other complaints against him were frivolous.

6079_Smith_W

That is one side of the story. And how a case is handled doesn't always tell you whether there is validity to the complaint. In this case, the award was based on a violation of his privacy, not whether the complaint was true:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/complainant-against-profe...

And I think lots of people who have suffered harrassment and assault understand about complaints "not panning out".

Pondering

robbie_dee wrote:

While this case originated prior to the rise of the #metoo movement, the way it was mishandled by UBC, ultimately resulting in Galloway receiving $167,000 in damages (but not reinstatement, which he waived) presents a timely example of the cost that must be paid when highly public allegations are made, but ultimately don't pan out the way they were initially presented.

I urge all falsely accused men to do the same. 

I urge all professors to stay out of their student's beds. 

 

robbie_dee

Pondering wrote:

I urge all falsely accused men to do the same.

Galloway was represented by a union that would have borne most or all of the costs associated with seeking this arbitration award. Unrepresented employees would generally have to go to court, which is more expensive, and fund such action out of their private resources, which is more difficult.

Also, while Smith appropriately points out that Galloway's account is not the only side to this story, if you choose to accept his account he says he has paid a significant price beyond that for which $167,000 would compensate him.

Quote:

I urge all professors to stay out of their student's beds.

Sage advice, but often unheeded. The thing about sex is, a lot of people like it and usually seek it from those that are closest to them. Grad students and professors are just one example.

6079_Smith_W

Aside from the fact that many universities now have policies forbidding sex between instructors and students, having sex doesn't give one free rein to commit sexual assault. That is what this accusation was about. Assault.

Sean in Ottawa

robbie_dee wrote:

Pondering wrote:

I urge all falsely accused men to do the same.

Galloway was represented by a union that would have borne most or all of the costs associated with seeking this arbitration award. Unrepresented employees would generally have to go to court, which is more expensive, and fund such action out of their private resources, which is more difficult.

Also, while Smith appropriately points out that Galloway's account is not the only side to this story, if you choose to accept his account he says he has paid a significant price beyond that for which $167,000 would compensate him.

Quote:

I urge all professors to stay out of their student's beds.

Sage advice, but often unheeded. The thing about sex is, a lot of people like it and usually seek it from those that are closest to them. Grad students and professors are just one example.

 

The issue of cost is a seperate issue for the rest of what is raised here. All people should have better financial assistence with legal costs they cannot afford. It would be wrong not to point out that more women than men still earn below an amount that allows for legal representation.

The fact that you have to buy your justice if you can afford it or accept not to have any is offensive to the concept that we live under rule of law in a so-called democracy.