Mulcair opposes C-51 while Trudeau folds like a cheap suit 2

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NorthReport

Mulcair rips into C-51, Liberals in key pre-election speech

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/03/19/mulcair-rips-into-c-51-liberals-in-ke...

NorthReport

Justin Trudeau needs to make most of second chance on Iraq: Hébert

All eyes will be on Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau as debate over the Iraq mission gets under way next week.

At the time some of the party’s elder statesmen made a more solid case for supporting Harper’s plan than their leader did for opposing it.

The Iraq debate coincided with the beginning of a slow but steady drop in Liberal support in voting intentions that now has the party tied with the Conservatives in most polls.

Against that backdrop, many have wondered whether Trudeau’s decision to support the government’s anti-terror bill earlier this year was a prelude to a reversal on the Iraq mission.

But one does not necessarily follow the other.

The Liberals could, for instance, have supported Canada’s military role in Iraq and opposed Bill C-51 instead of the reverse.

Indeed, some of their supporters wish they had gone that route.

But whether Trudeau sticks to his guns on Harper’s Iraq mission or reverses himself next week, he will have to do a better job of articulating his party’s position than he did last fall.

 

Sean in Ottawa

montrealer58 wrote:

Norway!

Syria--assly I could not take any more so I-ran away

janfromthebruce

Tom Mulcair stated that if the NDP forms government he would get rid of "every single provision of bill C-51."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bill-c-51-ex-judges-join-tom-mulcair-in-fight-against-dangerous-draft-law-1.3001153

Paladin1

i don't trust a single politician. If one said good morning to me I would look at my watch to see if it's the afternoon.  That said good on Mr Mulcair for taking a stand against this. I'm beside myself with confusion over how any Canadian would approve of bill C51.

I would guess that I'm probably one of the biggest advocates for battling terrorisim in all it's forms but the capacity for innocent Canadian civilians to suffer under this is too much.   In our society today it's a battle to get people to vote yet someone will see a news headline and comment (including threats of violence or death) without even reading a story.   More people need to read what this bill is about.

Unionist

Paladin1, I appreciate and support your sentiment fully - but you didn't make any pun on country names. I'll be back to that shortly, though sometimes I wrack my brains to no avail. My dilemma is real!

 

Paladin1

I see what you did there, clever!

Sean in Ottawa

There has been a lot of focus on the mechanism the NDP would use -- instead of the effect and intent.

Mulcais has stated that he would use an amendment rather than repeal. I can see why that would be essential the bill makes changes to a number of acts that have to be reversed so you can't just eliminate the Bill.

I could see some measure put in where others are taken out. The NDP has supported the measures respecting sharing of information among law enforcement agencies. There are issues related to security that are in place already and require oversight (even without the new measures accepted/proposed by the Liberals and Conservatives). The Bill could be amended to provide that.

There is worry about young people being lost to ISIS being encouraged to violence. We have heard police concerns about domestic extremist threats from Neo-Nazis and the like. A strategy to address this could be welcome. This would have a priority on mental health addressing an increasing hopelessness and disconnection among a significant number of our youth.

Mulcair has already stated that he want a review of existing provisions and mandates with a view to seeing where resources are missing that may need to be increased. He has pointed to underfunding as a concern for security.

So I can well understand that there is no contradiction between saying no provision of the current Bill would be left standing but it would be an amendment and there are measure that make sense so there would be a Bill in some form at the end.

NorthReport

Mulcair says NDP would pull Canadian troops from Iraq mission

The New Democratic Party would pull Canadian troops out of the mission to Iraq should it form the next government, Leader Thomas Mulcair says.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulcair-says-ndp-would-pull...

NorthReport

C-51 hearings: National Firearms Association pulls out

National Firearms Assocation was to appear along with internet advocacy group Open Media

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/c-51-hearings-national-firearms-associat...

nicky

Tom summed it up pretty accurately on one of the weekend political shows. He said ( not an exact quote):

Stephen Harper is playing the politics of fear and the first person he frightened was Justin Trudeau

montrealer58 montrealer58's picture

Would Ukraine your neck to see if the neo-Nazis are coming?

Brachina

http://m.thetyee.ca/News/2015/03/25/Right-Wing-Website-Fights-C51/

 

 It makes me wonder how many rightwing liberatarian/populist voters could end up voting NDP over bill C-51.

 

 I wonder what other civil liberty issues could attract these voters to the NDP.

NorthReport
NorthReport

Trudeau's position of support for Bill C51 is misguided and deplorable.

Canadian Bar Association Denounces Anti-Terror Bill

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/03/20/canadian-bar-association-_n_6913...

NorthReport

C-51 must include more oversight, anti-radicalization efforts, NDP says

Public safety committee hearings on anti-terrorism bill to wrap up on Thursday

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/c-51-must-include-more-oversight-anti-ra...

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

C-51 must include more oversight, anti-radicalization efforts, NDP says

Public safety committee hearings on anti-terrorism bill to wrap up on Thursday

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/c-51-must-include-more-oversight-anti-ra...

This I agree with and a good thing that more is being said about what should be in the bill.

It is becoming clearer that the NDP would have a Bill but a very different one.

Brachina

https://openmedia.ca/blog/vice-government-pressured-firearms-group-back-...

 

 The Harper Government blackmailed gun groups, disgusting. I don't agree with these groups on many things, but silencing people view blackmail is wrong. And they were right about Bill C-51.

NorthReport

Justin Trudeau fell right into Stephen Harper’s Bill C-51 “trap”, GreenLibs member says

Cooksey described the legislation as a “trap”, and asserted that federal Liberal leader Justin Trudeau walked into it by deciding that his party will vote in favour of the measure. (Today, the party proposed some amendments to the bill.)

It’s a trap because the legislation lumps environmental activists like Cooksey and others in with violent extremists, the filmmaker explained.

“He is setting traps for Trudeau where Trudeau, in order to seem centrist, has to tack to the right,” Cooksey said.

-----------------------------------------

According to Cooksey, Trudeau’s support for Bill C-51 could lose him some votes from the left, which is what Harper wants.


http://www.straight.com/news/419506/justin-trudeau-fell-right-stephen-ha...

Paladin1

This is pretty wild.

 

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-harper-government-may-have-bullied-a-...

 

Quote:

Canada's foremost pro-gun lobby group backed down from criticizing the Harper government's anti-terrorism legislation out of concerns that the Conservatives would screw them over on changes to new gun laws, VICE has learned.

The National Firearms Association (NFA) was scheduled to testify on Monday night before the Public Safety committee alongside OpenMedia, its partner in the Protect Our Privacy Coalition.

But Sheldon Clare, the NFA's President and CEO, pulled out just three days before he was scheduled to testify.

According to emails provided to VICE, Clare withdrew after pressure from the Conservatives over a different piece of legislation—Bill C-42.

 

Don't critisize our scary anti-privacy bill and we won't give you a hard time over your firearm bill.

NorthReport

Harper is losing the argument on C-51 … with Conservatives

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/03/26/harper-is-losing-the-argument-on-c-51...

takeitslowly

Man enough to won a gun, but not enough to stand up to the government? pathetic.

Brachina
Brachina

NorthReport wrote:

Harper is losing the argument on C-51 … with Conservatives

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/03/26/harper-is-losing-the-argument-on-c-51...

 

 Its funny how its been said to be a trap for.Trudeau, and it has been, but it might take Harper's arm with Trudeau when it goes off. Beautiful.

Aristotleded24

Brachina wrote:
NorthReport wrote:

Harper is losing the argument on C-51 … with Conservatives

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/03/26/harper-is-losing-the-argument-on-c-51...

 

 Its funny how its been said to be a trap for.Trudeau, and it has been, but it might take Harper's arm with Trudeau when it goes off. Beautiful.

This part stands out for me:

Quote:

Connie Fournier, founder of the former conservative online forum FreeDominion, criticized the bill’s infringements on privacy and freedom of speech. Fournier is going a step further, reviving her website to fight Bill C-51 — and Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

“I feel like we’re in some kind of alternate universe,” she recently told the Tyee. “You spend your life working for the Conservative party, and the Conservative party finally gets in, and (now) you’re saying, ‘I hope the NDP really steps up and protects us from our Conservative government.'”

The fact that we agree with our former adverseries* on this bill really says something.

*For those who don't understand the history, the woman I quoted used to run a right-wing discussion forum called "Free Dominion," and some of their members used to post here.

Brachina

 Life's filled with ironies.

NorthReport

Ed Broadbent On Bill C-51: 'Never Thought I'd See The Day' Liberals Won't Defend Charter  Frown

Broadbent added that he worked with former prime minister Trudeau in the early 1980s to create “possibly the best” Charter of Rights in the world.

“I never thought I’d see the day his party would back away from its defence,” he said. “C-51 is flawed. C-51 is dangerous. C-51 must be defeated by Parliament.”

Broadbent did not mention Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau by name but pointedly said that the goal of the next election should not just be to “defeat bad Conservative ideas,” but to ensure progressive policies take their place.

“Simply preventing further erosion is not good enough,” he said. “We need to move our country to a new and better place.

“Canadians deserve better than a new federal government that, while perhaps being a bit more polite, continues to make inadequate decisions.”

Broadbent also did not mention Thomas Mulcair, but the NDP leader addressed the group Friday afternoon. Mulcair’s New Democrats are sharply opposed to the anti-terror legislation.

Trudeau’s Liberals have faced criticism since announcing that they support Bill C-51, but aim to amend the legislation if they win the next election.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/03/27/ed-broadbent-trudeau-bill-c-51_n...

NorthReport

Harper's internal polling must be telling him he is losing support as he is backing off in some areas because of the Mulcair-led NDP attacks on C51.

NorthReport

Bill C-51: NDP outlines plan to scrap 'dangerous provisions

''This is a dangerous, ineffective bill that should not be adopted,' says NDP public safety critic

NDP public safety critics Rosane Doré Lefebvre and Randall Garrison presented their party's proposed amendments to the government's anti-terror bill at a press conference on Friday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bill-c-51-ndp-outlines-plan-to-scrap-dan...

Debater

LPC has been telling CPC that they need to make amendments to Bill C-51 to include greater oversight.

Irwin Cotler & the LPC caucus presented some amendments yesterday.

Looks like the CPC is now prepared to scale back some of the provisions in Bill C-51.

---

Changes to be put forward during clause-by-clause review

Mar 27, 2015

CBC News has learned the government will propose a handful of amendments to Bill C-51 starting Tuesday.

The government wants to limit the kind of protests which would be captured by the bill by narrowing the scope of activities qualifying as terrorist acts.

The government amendment will also clarify that CSIS agents will not have the power to arrest.

---

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/anti-terror-bill-c-51-to-be-scaled-back-...

Brachina

 It has nothing to do with Trudeau's tepid critism, it has to do with the brilliant work of Tom Mulcair which has shifted public opinion to the point where even the people at Free Dominion are joining the fight and thinking of voting NDP even.

 

 And yet you want to give the credit to Trudeau, disgusting.

Brachina

g http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/bill-c-51-ndp-outlines-plan-to-scrap-d...

 

 NDP outlines.plan to scrap dangerous provisiins of Bill C-51

Pondering

Brachina wrote:

 It has nothing to do with Trudeau's tepid critism, it has to do with the brilliant work of Tom Mulcair which has shifted public opinion to the point where even the people at Free Dominion are joining the fight and thinking of voting NDP even.

 

 And yet you want to give the credit to Trudeau, disgusting.

Trudeau certainly didn't shift opinion but neither did the NDP. Organizations, institutions and countless dignitaries and experts have come out against it. I would say they are the ones who changed the public's opinion. Nevertheless the NDP deserves credit for choosing to fight it. The Liberals should have fought it too instead of siding with the Conservatives even with reservations. 

Brachina

 Bullshit, nothing was happening until Mulcair took a leadership role, goodness forbid you give the leader.of the offical the credit he is do, hell even the free dominioners give him credit.

NorthReport

Why do these comments remind me of the following cartoon:

DEA4002

 

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2014/09/16/justin-trudeau-gets-attentio...

 

Debater wrote:

LPC has been telling CPC that they need to make amendments to Bill C-51 to include greater oversight.

Irwin Cotler & the LPC caucus presented some amendments yesterday.

Looks like the CPC is now prepared to scale back some of the provisions in Bill C-51.

---

Changes to be put forward during clause-by-clause review

Mar 27, 2015

CBC News has learned the government will propose a handful of amendments to Bill C-51 starting Tuesday.

The government wants to limit the kind of protests which would be captured by the bill by narrowing the scope of activities qualifying as terrorist acts.

The government amendment will also clarify that CSIS agents will not have the power to arrest.

---

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/anti-terror-bill-c-51-to-be-scaled-back-...

NorthReport

+

NorthReport

Another issue that Debater's raises with his comments is: "How lazy is Trudeau?" It may become more and more of a problem for the Liberals in the coming months. 

Pondering

Is Trudeau being praised for his position on C-51 somewhere because if so I missed it. 

janfromthebruce

ah dont you mean that Trudeau and the Liberals are voting for it, where there are amendments or not - odious.

NorthReport

Stop playing games, Trudeau and the Liberals are voting for C51.

Tks Jan.

NorthReport

Ed is correct, and Harper and Trudeau must be defeated as well.

Ed Broadbent: ‘C-51 is flawed. … C-51 must be defeated’

For the record, a transcript of Ed Broadbent’s prepared remarks for the opening of the NDP’s Progress Summit

 

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/ed-broadbent-%EF%BF%BCc-51-is-flawed-...

ajaykumar

NDP isn't saying that it will kill this bill, all its saying is that it will amend it like liberals. So the only difference is the vote ,which doesn't matter anyways. NDP protests because it needs something to protest about evidently to gain media coverage.speaking of protests, how many idle no more protests did mulcair attend?

Jacob Two-Two

Of course the vote doesn't matter to someone like Justin, who says straight out that he votes for bills he disagrees with for political reasons. For those of us who still believe in democracy, it still matters. When the rubber hits the road, Liberals betray the people every time.

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

ajaykumar wrote:
NDP isn't saying that it will kill this bill, all its saying is that it will amend it like liberals. So the only difference is the vote ,which doesn't matter anyways. NDP protests because it needs something to protest about evidently to gain media coverage.speaking of protests, how many idle no more protests did mulcair attend?

First of all, AJay, the NDP's postion is that it will repeal alll the offending provisioons in the bill by completly REPEALING the Bill. The Libs position is that they will amend. What that means is the Libs will keep parts of the bill that are offenisve, and simply soften language. The two positions are as opposite as are night and day. Your protests are meaningless.

Secondly, the Libs VOTED FOR THE BILL. Lets assume for a second that Harper wins. Then the Libs will be on the record AS HAVING VOTED FOR THE BILL. Let me repeat, they VOTED FOR A BILL THAT TAKES AWAY CIVIL RIGHTS! Yep, THEY VOTED FOR A BILL THAT TAKES AWAY CIVIL RIGHTS. The Libs, DID THAT! Yep, Trudeau and his gand of thugs, DID THAT! And tey will be solely responsible for helping Harper pass it. That will be the LPC's and Le Dauphin's, legacy, and complete responsibility. No one made them do it; they GLADLY did it!

Now on the other hand, the NDP, despite the alledged electoral risk, VOTED AGAIINST THE BILL. The put the Ciivil Liberties of ALL CANADIANS ahead of the the NDP's political interest. People over politics, AJay. Your party is opportunitsic, weak, and pathetic!

Rokossovsky

ajaykumar wrote:
NDP isn't saying that it will kill this bill, all its saying is that it will amend it like liberals. So the only difference is the vote ,which doesn't matter anyways. NDP protests because it needs something to protest about evidently to gain media coverage.speaking of protests, how many idle no more protests did mulcair attend?

Nope. The NDP has not said it will not "repeal" the bill. Mulcair said he would "change it for sure", Saganash said he wants it repealed, Cash said the same thing, and in fact the motion the NDP put before the house on second reading would have killed it right then and there.

Nuff, spin! Thanks!

Arthur Cramer Arthur Cramer's picture

ajaykumar wrote:
NDP isn't saying that it will kill this bill, all its saying is that it will amend it like liberals. So the only difference is the vote ,which doesn't matter anyways. NDP protests because it needs something to protest about evidently to gain media coverage.speaking of protests, how many idle no more protests did mulcair attend?

Idle no more protests; where was Justin Mac? And on top of that, what does that have to do with this thread. Looks like you have been taking lessons in delection from the Tories, Mac.

Aristotleded24

Pondering wrote:
Brachina wrote:

 It has nothing to do with Trudeau's tepid critism, it has to do with the brilliant work of Tom Mulcair which has shifted public opinion to the point where even the people at Free Dominion are joining the fight and thinking of voting NDP even.

 

 And yet you want to give the credit to Trudeau, disgusting.

Trudeau certainly didn't shift opinion but neither did the NDP. Organizations, institutions and countless dignitaries and experts have come out against it. I would say they are the ones who changed the public's opinion. Nevertheless the NDP deserves credit for choosing to fight it. The Liberals should have fought it too instead of siding with the Conservatives even with reservations.

Several organizations, institutions, and countless dignitaries and experts in the US also came out against the Iraq war and the Patriot Act. The reason these people didn't make any traction against the Bush administration is because there were no influential elected politicians who stood against the Bush administration. The difference in Canada is that the Greens and NDP came out clearly against it and fought against it where the laws are made, in Parliament.

thorin_bane

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Pondering wrote:
Brachina wrote:

 It has nothing to do with Trudeau's tepid critism, it has to do with the brilliant work of Tom Mulcair which has shifted public opinion to the point where even the people at Free Dominion are joining the fight and thinking of voting NDP even.

 

 And yet you want to give the credit to Trudeau, disgusting.

Trudeau certainly didn't shift opinion but neither did the NDP. Organizations, institutions and countless dignitaries and experts have come out against it. I would say they are the ones who changed the public's opinion. Nevertheless the NDP deserves credit for choosing to fight it. The Liberals should have fought it too instead of siding with the Conservatives even with reservations.

Several organizations, institutions, and countless dignitaries and experts in the US also came out against the Iraq war and the Patriot Act. The reason these people didn't make any traction against the Bush administration is because there were no influential elected politicians who stood against the Bush administration. The difference in Canada is that the Greens and NDP came out clearly against it and fought against it where the laws are made, in Parliament.


Stop using facts because Pondering never responds to those. Just use rhetoric and made up BS in your arguments while ignoring any facts when proven, seems to work for our Libs.

ETA Like to say E May has been forecful on this issue and deserves some props on it.

Winston

thorin_bane wrote:

ETA Like to say E May has been forecful on this issue and deserves some props on it.

There ARE times when the Greens can be more than a potemkin party!

Brachina

thorin_bane wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Pondering wrote:
Brachina wrote:

 It has nothing to do with Trudeau's tepid critism, it has to do with the brilliant work of Tom Mulcair which has shifted public opinion to the point where even the people at Free Dominion are joining the fight and thinking of voting NDP even.

 

 And yet you want to give the credit to Trudeau, disgusting.

Trudeau certainly didn't shift opinion but neither did the NDP. Organizations, institutions and countless dignitaries and experts have come out against it. I would say they are the ones who changed the public's opinion. Nevertheless the NDP deserves credit for choosing to fight it. The Liberals should have fought it too instead of siding with the Conservatives even with reservations.

Several organizations, institutions, and countless dignitaries and experts in the US also came out against the Iraq war and the Patriot Act. The reason these people didn't make any traction against the Bush administration is because there were no influential elected politicians who stood against the Bush administration. The difference in Canada is that the Greens and NDP came out clearly against it and fought against it where the laws are made, in Parliament.


Stop using facts because Pondering never responds to those. Just use rhetoric and made up BS in your arguments while ignoring any facts when proven, seems to work for our Libs.

ETA Like to say E May has been forecful on this issue and deserves some props on it.

 

 I agree.

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