Official Rabble Floor Crossing Thread

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Mighty Middle
Official Rabble Floor Crossing Thread

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Mighty Middle

Alberta MLA Sandra Jansen leaves PCs, joins NDP caucus

What impact will this have on the Federal NDP policy of having the elected official (who wants to cross the floor) have to resign and run in a by-election? As Rachel Notley has just accepted Sandra Jansen without demanding she run in a by-election?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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What impact will this have on the Federal NDP policy of having the elected official (who wants to cross the floor) have to resign and run in a by-election?

If it's true -- and it does seem like it is -- then this is very unfortunate.

I think the NDP has been right (up to now) in insisting that floor-crossers get their choice approved by the electorate.  It was a triumph of principle over opportunism.  They traded the high ground for a free seat.

 

quizzical

i disagree. i think it was the right thing to do.

if you knew or were in touch what has happened to the women PC MLAs by their own party in the wake of Jason Kenney's advent then the NDP should welcome ALL with open arms.

Mighty Middle

Remember she was only 1 of 11 PC MLA to get elected, and she got elected on the strength of her name.

But now whenever a floor crossing does happen, and the NDP complains, all their critics have to do is point to this example.

quizzical

AB is a fucking mess.

what a waste of tax payers dollars imv.

added you have a boat load of time and energy spent needlessly.

like really a total waste of money and time resources

people are spread thin. there's no need to expend stupidly on "proving" how pure and good.

time and money are resources desperately needed not wasted on useless circuses.

Aristotleded24

quizzical wrote:
i disagree. i think it was the right thing to do.

if you knew or were in touch what has happened to the women PC MLAs by their own party in the wake of Jason Kenney's advent then the NDP should welcome ALL with open arms.

Nobody knows all the ins-and-outs when an elected official decides to cross the floor, and this seems to be another example of "it's-okay-when-my-team-does-it-but-not-when-the-other-guys-do." I trust that she had a valid reason, but she can still go through the formal steps. If it was specifically because she felt uncomfortable with the harassment in the PC party, the local NDP would probably have welcomed her with open arms at the nomination meeting anyways, and they, along with the people who respected her just as a community representative regardless of party representation, would have worked damn hard to make sure she won that by-election.

That said, putting aside the ethics of floor-crossing, this here is good news for Notley when she needed some and a blow to the PC-Wildrose alliance.

Mighty Middle

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AB is a fucking mess.

And are you laying the blame on Rachel Notley or the PC government that came before her

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people are spread thin. there's no need to expend stupidly on "proving" how pure and good. time and money are resources desperately needed not wasted on useless circuses.

You can't put a price on democracy

quizzical

Mighty Middle wrote:
Remember she was only 1 of 11 PC MLA to get elected, and she got elected on the strength of her name.

But now whenever a floor crossing does happen, and the NDP complains, all their critics have to do is point to this example.

if the NDP have "complained" then imv they're being whiney weiners and need to stop anyway.

has the whinnging ever stop a floor crosser? ya no i don't think so.

if the constituents don't like it then vote them out the next time.

why in the hell does anyone want the NDP to look whiney?

quizzical

Mighty Middle wrote:
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AB is a fucking mess.

And are you laying the blame on Rachel Notley or the PC government that came before her

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people are spread thin. there's no need to expend stupidly on "proving" how pure and good. time and money are resources desperately needed not wasted on useless circuses.

You can't put a price on democracy

not on Rachel. imv she is making as best choices as she can to try and make work AB. the shit she has to put up with is a full time job. we don't need her wasting time on a needless bi-election. nor the money.

democracy is not being disserved in anyway. you can bet she talked at length with her constituents. its a huge move on her part and one i'm sure she never took lightly. they voted for her not her party.

the PC government prior and the current Wild Rose and PC destructive actions fueled by corporate dollars are making a toxic mess with tinges of implied violence occuring everywhere and women are bearing the brunt.

the fking money wasted on a bi-election could fund women's shelters and food banks ffs.

cco

Personally, I always thought our policy on floor-crossing was rather silly. Totally ineffectual when someone defects from us, gives rise to situations like this one when someone defects to us, and even if we were to make it law, nothing would stop someone from sitting as an "independent NDPer" or even serving in cabinet. That's just how the Westminster system works. Most people here weren't fooled by Trudeau officially keeping Liberal senators out of caucus, and a floor-crossing law would be the same thing.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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if you knew or were in touch what has happened to the women PC MLAs by their own party in the wake of Jason Kenney's advent then the NDP should welcome ALL with open arms.

I'm sure the NDP welcomed her to the NDP.  It's just that there was a time when the voters had to welcome her to the NDP first.

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has the whinnging ever stop a floor crosser? ya no i don't think so.

It's not for the NDP to stop all floor-crossers.

But on principle, they could say they won't accept them without a byelection to ensure that the electorate also approves.

Mighty Middle

cco wrote:

Most people here weren't fooled by Trudeau officially keeping Liberal senators out of caucus, and a floor-crossing law would be the same thing.

If Trudeau had his way all those Independent Liberals would just be Independent like the other current 44 Independent Senators

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Personally, I always thought our policy on floor-crossing was rather silly. Totally ineffectual when someone defects from us

No NDP policy could possibly expect to control someone leaving the NDP.

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gives rise to situations like this one when someone defects to us

This isn't a "situation".  All the NDP has to do is wait until the people who voted for Jansen under the banner of the PCs to say that they also want her to represent them under the banner of the NDP.  What's the hard part about that?

The idea that the cost of a byelection could be better spent on white canes for the blind, or whatever, really isn't the point.  If we just want to save the cost of byelections then if an MP dies or resigns, why not just let the PM appoint someone then?  I'm sure that if that were the policy we'd somehow find the the pittance that a byelection costs under the sofa cushions.

 

Mighty Middle

Mr. Magoo wrote:

This isn't a "situation".  All the NDP has to do is wait until the people who voted for Jansen under the banner of the PCs to say that they also want her to represent them under the banner of the NDP.  What's the hard part about that?

Exactly, I'm not a PC. However the people in that riding voted for a PC MLA not an NDP MLA. The people should decide what party they want to represent them in that riding.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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there was a time???? wth "welcome" what??? i don't even get the comment let alone the rational. i believe people should vote for the person emboding their ideology. if said person wins then find themselves in a party whose ideology has changed or misrepresented themselves then i would trust the person whom i voted for who embodied my values to move where OUR values were more in line.

So if the local NDP candidate you voted for crossed the floor to the PCs then you would continue to vote for him/her?

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if her constituents support her move and this can be proven i see nothing wrong with accepting talent into the NDP.

Is that not exactly what I'm saying?

How shall we know that her constituents support this change without a byelection?

quizzical

Mr. Magoo wrote:
Quote:
if you knew or were in touch what has happened to the women PC MLAs by their own party in the wake of Jason Kenney's advent then the NDP should welcome ALL with open arms.

I'm sure the NDP welcomed her to the NDP.  It's just that there was a time when the voters had to welcome her to the NDP first.

there was a time???? wth "welcome" what??? i don't even get the comment let alone the rational. i believe people should vote for the person emboding their ideology. if said person wins then find themselves in a party whose ideology has changed or misrepresented themselves then i would trust the person whom i voted for who embodied my values to move where OUR values were more in line.  if her constituents support her move and this can be proven i see nothing wrong with accepting talent into the NDP.

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has the whinnging ever stop a floor crosser? ya no i don't think so.

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It's not for the NDP to stop all floor-crossers.

then why whine? or stand on some meaningless principal

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But on principle, they could say they won't accept them without a byelection to ensure that the electorate also approves.

what principle? i want to waste money and time standing on the principal of some unknowable purity?

eta: byelections cost lots. if there is a sitting MLA or MP and the spots not abscent then don't waste the money or time. there's shit needs doing.

stop trivializing what's going on in AB to fund raising for "white canes".  people's lives are being threatened. harassment is rampant. one female PC MLA quit period.

we don't need to lose women in politics because some men want to welcome them to their party before they're considered pure enough or principaled enough.

 

 

Mighty Middle

quizzical since you are fine with floor crossing, if a NDP ever crosses the floor to the Liberals, I'd expect you will be fine with it like u are with Sandra Jansen

quizzical

Mr. Magoo wrote:
Quote:
there was a time???? wth "welcome" what??? i don't even get the comment let alone the rational. i believe people should vote for the person emboding their ideology. if said person wins then find themselves in a party whose ideology has changed or misrepresented themselves then i would trust the person whom i voted for who embodied my values to move where OUR values were more in line.

So if the local NDP candidate you voted for crossed the floor to the PCs then you would continue to vote for him/her?

if they embodied my personal ideals which is not impossible. politics in AB have been skewed for decades. they need to 

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if her constituents support her move and this can be proven i see nothing wrong with accepting talent into the NDP.

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Is that not exactly what I'm saying?

How shall we know that her constituents support this change without a byelection?

they're loud. and nothing is secret in today's electoral landscape. if they didn't believe in her move she would be getting death threats right now.

look at it this way; the MLA's constituent work isn't the party's work it's their's alone.

it's the work at the constituent level which means the most to the voters if you really want to boil it down.

and if they don't like her move then they vote her out next election. she is still doing her constituent work only party affiliation has changed.

 

quizzical

yup. if their constiuents don't like it then vote their representative next time as not embodying their ideals.

i'm not into whinging and genuflecting before some false god. not one in heaven or made up by the male ruling class.

Mighty Middle

quizzical wrote:

they're loud. and nothing is secret in today's electoral landscape. if they didn't believe in her move she would be getting death threats right now.

If you read the tweets directed at Sanrdra right now, her constitents are not happy with this floor crossing.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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yup. if their constiuents don't like it then vote their representative next time

This comes down to "why 'next tme"?

Why not just now?

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i'm not into whinging and genuflecting before some false god. not one in heaven or made up by the male ruling class.

Oh, that's it.  Somehow, this is all about penises.

quizzical

Mighty Middle wrote:
quizzical wrote:
they're loud. and nothing is secret in today's electoral landscape. if they didn't believe in her move she would be getting death threats right now.

If you read the tweets directed at Sanrdra right now, her constitents are not happy with this floor crossing.

how do you know they're her constituents? they self-identified? lololol

and i don't follow twitter. it's a pain in the ass. only old people do now like Donald Trump. ;)

mark_alfred

I wonder why this is in "Canadian politics" rather than the Alberta section of Babble.  While the federal party has had this policy, I don't know if the Alberta NDP has had such a policy.

quizzical

Mr. Magoo wrote:
.... made up by the male ruling class.

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Oh, that's it.  Somehow, this is all about penises.

did i say a word about penises? nope.

have males stopped ruling the world and believing they've a right to? nope.

until they cede and allow "democracy" to occur and actually believe in equity it remains what it is...and i'm not going to be bullied into ignoring it or not stating it for what it is.

i'm really tired of male "principals" trying to dominate my world. men used to have duels because of their "principals" and kill each other. i find this no different. posturing at everyone else's expense.

knowlege network is having a great week on women throughout history. it's given me several epiphanies.

Mighty Middle

mark_alfred wrote:

I wonder why this is in "Canadian politics" rather than the Alberta section of Babble.  While the federal party has had this policy, I don't know if the Alberta NDP has had such a policy.

When Danielle Smith crossed the floor to the PC Government Rachel Notley labelled the move a "Betrayal" to Albertans.

This move has bigger implications, because it does affect the Federal NDP. They can no longer hold the moral high ground on floor crossings after this move

quizzical

"moral high ground'???????

do you people listen to yourselves?

who are you to determine anyone's moral high ground let alone a whole riding full of peoples. if the federal NDP wants to die on ome mythological moral highground based on rejecting talent and burning bridges then they deserve to lose.

i went to her twitter feed just to see if what you were saying is accurate.

it isn't. 'nuff said by you on 'moral highground' imv.

 

mark_alfred

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This move has bigger implications, because it does affect the Federal NDP. They can no longer hold the moral high ground on floor crossings after this move

I don't think it affects the federal NDP.  The federal NDP has already shot itself in the head at the last federal convention.  Thankfully the Alberta NDP seems determined not to follow in the federal NDP's footsteps.

quizzical

and you believe they're her contituents lol....

follow the Jason Kenney trail.........lolololol

Mighty Middle

quizzical wrote:

i went to her twitter feed just to see if what you were saying is accurate.

it isn't.

It would be better if you type Sandra Jansen in the search function of twitter, Many many people are demanding she resign and run in a byelection.

Some of the comments are so horrible, I don't want to reprint them here.

mark_alfred wrote:

Thankfully the Alberta NDP seems determined not to follow in the federal NDP's footsteps.

The next time there is a floor crossing at the federal scene (like NDP switching to Liberal), I hope you have the same reaction.

Mighty Middle

Double Post

mark_alfred

I'm sure you'll be glad if the federal NDP keeps punching itself in the face, Mighty Middle.  As for the Alberta NDP, good for them.

Rev Pesky

Rachel Notley on floor-crossing

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...NDP Leader Rachel Notley labelled the floor-crossings a “betrayal” of Albertans by a premier whose party was elected on a progressive platform in 2012 but who she said is now cynically tacking hard right to vacuum up its main political opponent.

“Jim Prentice may think, ‘Oh look at me, look at how Machiavellian and clever I am,”‘ said Notley. “But I think that it will really offend the basic values of many Albertans.”

 

 

Aristotleded24

quizzical wrote:
yup. if their constiuents don't like it then vote their representative next time as not embodying their ideals.

Floor crossers generally lose their seats in the following general election. Belinda Stronach is the only recent exception that comes to mind.

mark_alfred

Notley criticized Prentice for tacking right.  The same criticism is not applicable to Notley regarding the Jansen crossing.  The Jansen crossing is a win for the Alberta NDP.

Rev Pesky

mark_alfred wrote:

Notley criticized Prentice for tacking right.  The same criticism is not applicable to Notley regarding the Jansen crossing.  The Jansen crossing is a win for the Alberta NDP.

Notley also referred to the floor- crossing as 'betrayal'.

And as far as that goes, the Alberta NDP has been tacking right, but it had nothing to do with this floor-crossing, so that specific criticism wouldn't apply.

quizzical

Danielle was leader of a party. 'nuff said

mark_alfred

Oh come on Rev.  You can read.  Here's your quote again.

Quote:
NDP Leader Rachel Notley labelled the floor-crossings a “betrayal” of Albertans by a premier whose party was elected on a progressive platform in 2012 but who she said is now cynically tacking hard right to vacuum up its main political opponent.

Not the case here.  Jansen's crossing is a win for the Alberta NDP.

Centrist

First this:

Quote:
Jansen admitted she did not consult the people of her riding before jumping ship. And, according to sources, this was Jansen’s second attempt to join the NDs.

According to two people on the full-time staff at the legislature and another inside the Tory caucus, Jansen tried several months ago to join the NDP but was rebuffed. At the time Notley’s chief of staff, Brian Topp, wanted the NDP to face a divided right – a reasonably strong Tory party and a strong Wildrose – who would split the right-of-centre vote in 2019 and give the NDP their only hope of re-election. So the New Dems rebuffed Jansen’s feelers. Stay with the Tories and make a Wildrose-PC merger impossible.

Problem is that there is also this... "CATI" opinion poll recently released by long time pollster Innovative Research:

 

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwnJ6r5WEAA2224.jpg[/img] 

 

bekayne
jjuares

Centrist wrote:

First this:

Quote:
Jansen admitted she did not consult the people of her riding before jumping ship. And, according to sources, this was Jansen’s second attempt to join the NDs.

According to two people on the full-time staff at the legislature and another inside the Tory caucus, Jansen tried several months ago to join the NDP but was rebuffed. At the time Notley’s chief of staff, Brian Topp, wanted the NDP to face a divided right – a reasonably strong Tory party and a strong Wildrose – who would split the right-of-centre vote in 2019 and give the NDP their only hope of re-election. So the New Dems rebuffed Jansen’s feelers. Stay with the Tories and make a Wildrose-PC merger impossible.

Problem is that there is also this... "CATI" opinion poll recently released by long time pollster Innovative Research:

 

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwnJ6r5WEAA2224.jpg[/img] 

 


Where did you find this? No links

mark_alfred

Well, I'm not really familiar with Alberta politics.  So I dunno what their previous stance was on floor crossing.  Had it been the federal NDP, I might be a bit concerned given their previous stance.  But the federal NDP really shot itself in the foot in the last convention.  So a rethink of the constraining and self-defeating policies might be in order.

NorthReport

I don't think there is a bigger fan of Rachel Notley here but this is a mistake . I am not privy to all the details but regardless, the MLA could have sat as an Independent, and voted with the NDP, meanwhile campaigning to win the NDP nomination in her riding for the next election. We need to stand on certain principles. If I had voted for this PC candidate I don't think her crossing the floor to another party would endear her to me, nor would it endear me to the NDP. If Rachel stays on a principled path she might, that is if she is lucky, get re-elected for a second term. This will definitely not help. Come on NDPers, don't you ever get tired of losing. Please smarten up.  

NorthReport

My hunch knowing centist is that it is an authentic poll.

jjuares wrote:
Centrist wrote:

First this:

Quote:
Jansen admitted she did not consult the people of her riding before jumping ship. And, according to sources, this was Jansen’s second attempt to join the NDs.

According to two people on the full-time staff at the legislature and another inside the Tory caucus, Jansen tried several months ago to join the NDP but was rebuffed. At the time Notley’s chief of staff, Brian Topp, wanted the NDP to face a divided right – a reasonably strong Tory party and a strong Wildrose – who would split the right-of-centre vote in 2019 and give the NDP their only hope of re-election. So the New Dems rebuffed Jansen’s feelers. Stay with the Tories and make a Wildrose-PC merger impossible.

Problem is that there is also this... "CATI" opinion poll recently released by long time pollster Innovative Research:

 

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwnJ6r5WEAA2224.jpg[/img] 

 

Where did you find this? No links

NorthReport

Howdy Mods,

Please move to alberta section and thanks

JKR

NorthReport wrote:

... the MLA could have sat as an Independent, and voted with the NDP, meanwhile campaigning to win the NDP nomination in her riding for the next election. We need to stand on certain principles. If I had voted for this PC candidate I don't think her crossing the floor to another party would endear her to me, nor would it endear me to the NDP.

I agree.

Mighty Middle

Rachel Notley on the floor crossing of Kerry Towle

Notely said that Albertans would be upset by the fact that two opposition members felt the only way to represent their constituents was to get “sucked into the mothership.”

“That’s not a good sign of democracy in this province."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/wildrose-mlas-kerry-towle-and-ian...

Mighty Middle

NorthReport wrote:

Howdy Mods,

Please move to alberta section and thanks

I placed this thread here because it affects the Federal NDP. as they advocated if someone crosses the floor, they need to resign and run in a byelection. So how does this move affect the Federal Party?

We have to remember that Brian Topp & Anne McGrath (chief of staff to Notley) come from the Federal Party that crafted this policy. Now they have signed off on a reverse of the policy at the Provincial level.

One thing we can take away from this thread is that it's the true NDP partisans that are twisting themselves into a pretzel in justifying this floor crossing.

If this was any other party, the same people defending this would be saying this is undemocratic.

For instance when Glenn Thibeault resigned his seat to run for the Liberals in Ontario Thomas Mulcair called it "beneath contempt," and Thibeault a turncoat.

NorthReport

Rachel it is not too late to reverse this decision
Please for the sake of the AB NDP's future overrule these backroom strategists, and think about how your Dad would feel if he knew this was taking place

Mighty Middle

NorthReport wrote:
Rachel it is not too late to reverse this decision Please for the sake of the AB NDP's future overrule these backroom strategists, and think about how your Dad would feel if he knew this was taking place

Exactly

quizzical

mark_alfred wrote:
Well, I'm not really familiar with Alberta politics.  So I dunno what their previous stance was on floor crossing.  Had it been the federal NDP, I might be a bit concerned given their previous stance.  But the federal NDP really shot itself in the foot in the last convention.  So a rethink of the constraining and self-defeating policies might be in order.

might be in order? long over due imv.

the "principles" everyone is talking about, namely NDP opposers here and those who are to pure to breath the air the rest of us do, is bs.

i don't give a shit about the NDP federal or provincial per se but i trust Rachel completely. at least she is caring enough to try and creat a better future for AB as opposed to those who want exploit or see the demise of the province.

 

 

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