Official Rabble Floor Crossing Thread

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Rev Pesky

It's not important what Sandra Jansen thought, or who is running the Alberta PC party, or what the media says about floor-crossing.

There are really only two question here.

In the past, have the Alberta NDP expressed a negative opinion of floor-crossing? Yes they have, including the current Alberta NDP leadership.

Did they abandon that position the first time they were the 'receivers' of the floor-crossing? Yes they did.

If any here think no one is going to use this little event in the next Alberta election campaign, think again.

The Alberta NDP could have taken a principled position of supporting Sandra Jansen in her battle with the PC troglodytes, and either accepted her into caucus at the next election, or after a by-election (if Jansen chose to resign and run in one). In the meantime Jansen could have sat as an independent, votiing with the NDP. Principles upheld, and everyone happy, even Jansen's constituents.

As far as the expense of a by-election, I'll just point out that by-elections are held all the time, for a variety of reasons. One more or less isn't going to make a lot of difference.

 

 

Mighty Middle

Should be noted the only 2 to 3 posters are defending this floor crossing move.. Many of the regular babblers are not weighing on this. Their silence on this floor crossing speaks volumes.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Should be noted the only 2 to 3 posters are defending this floor crossing move.. Many of the regular babblers are not weighing on this. Their silence on this floor crossing speaks volumes.

The only message of my silence is that I don't care to participate in threads started by habitual gossip-mongers.

jjuares

Rev Pesky wrote:

It's not important what Sandra Jansen thought, or who is running the Alberta PC party, or what the media says about floor-crossing.

There are really only two question here.

In the past, have the Alberta NDP expressed a negative opinion of floor-crossing? Yes they have, including the current Alberta NDP leadership.

Did they abandon that position the first time they were the 'receivers' of the floor-crossing? Yes they did.

If any here think no one is going to use this little event in the next Alberta election campaign, think again.

The Alberta NDP could have taken a principled position of supporting Sandra Jansen in her battle with the PC troglodytes, and either accepted her into caucus at the next election, or after a by-election (if Jansen chose to resign and run in one). In the meantime Jansen could have sat as an independent, votiing with the NDP. Principles upheld, and everyone happy, even Jansen's constituents.

As far as the expense of a by-election, I'll just point out that by-elections are held all the time, for a variety of reasons. One more or less isn't going to make a lot of difference.

 

 


Gee, are we restricted to your two questions or do we get to have some of our own?

jjuares

Mighty Middle wrote:

I'm not a fan of the Edmonton Sun or The Rebel. But what you are implying is that Sun Media is not journalism or media. But it is just propaganda.

Is that correct in how I'm interperting your viewpoint?

Because if it is then you are siding AGAINST PEN Canada, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression and the Canadian Association of Journalists.

 


Yes, those outlets are to journalism as what cotten candy is to food. Yes, it is a food but see how healthy you are if you make that a staple of your diet. Someone quoting Lorne Gunter on a site that fancies otself as progressive. FFS

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Gee, are we restricted to your two questions or do we get to have some of our own?

Questions are free.  What are YOUR questions?

I hope they're as plain and reasonable as Rev. Pesky's.

Anyway, full disclosure here.  I'm an "Easterner", from Toronto, no less.  And clearly the only reason I even care about any of this is my desire to put those Westerners back in their place.  Don't be fooled by my chin music about principles, or letting voters decide where their vote goes or whatever.  You can bet I'd NEVER criticize an Ontario party for doing this.

jerrym

The only two women to run for the Alberta PC leadership both dropped out of the leadership race, suggesting that this is more than a simple case of case of floor-croossing opportunism. 

Quote:

The head of Alberta's PC party says she will take swift action to investigate allegations of intimidation and harassment after the only two women running for the leadership dropped out Tuesday.

Sandra Jansen and Donna Kennedy-Glans — socially progressive voices within the party — both gave notice on Tuesday that they were withdrawing. 

Kennedy-Glans — the former PC MLA for Calgary-Varsity — stated she felt there was no room for centrist views within the party. Jansen, the PC MLA for Calgary-Northwest, created even more of a stir when she said she was harassed online and at the PC Party convention last weekend in Red Deer.

"This past weekend in Red Deer has left me quite shaken," Jansen said Tuesday in a statement. "As you know, I have been a member of the PCAA [Progressive Conservative Association of Alberta] since 1985. I have volunteered for several leadership campaigns, constituency races, party president contests and more than a few general elections.

"In all of that time, I have never before experienced harassment like that which occurred up to and including this past weekend in Red Deer."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-pc-party-harassment-intimi...

 

Starting at 1:33:00 of the Power and Politics video below, Paula Simons of the Edmontion Journal and Jason Markusooff of Macleans discuss Jansen's floor-crossing to the NDP. While the crossing does raise issues of opportunism and even hypocrisy (I'm shocked that this could happen in politics) for both Jansen and the NDP, it also raises issues about where Jason Kenney, who seems to be weill on his way to winning the PC leadership, will take the Alberta PCs.

Simons and Markusoff describe how Jansen had her election posters vandalized, been bullied (including physically) for "months and months", and received "toxic expressions antithetical to a progressive female candidate, especially on LGBTQ issues" on the internet. Simons emphasizes that many Red Tories, in addition to Jansen, no longer feel comfortable in Kenney's PC machine. 

 

http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/812788803861

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Simons emphasizes that many Red Tories, in addition to Jansen, no longer feel comfortable in Kenney's PC machine.

May I just suggest again that the issue here isn't a couple of PCs feeling like their party is taking the wrong path, and wanting out, but rather the idea that having convinced electors to vote for them AND the PC party, they should now ask voters to vote for them AND another party?

That's all it is.  I'm happy to see them turn their backs on the PCs.  But they need to consult their constituents to make sure this is OK by them, too, and the only reasonable way to do that is by running again, and asking for their vote again.

Quote:
Simons emphasizes that many Red Tories, in addition to Jansen, no longer feel comfortable in Kenney's PC machine.

Did I miss a headline?  When did it become "Kenney's PC machine"?

quizzical

Mighty Middle wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Edmonton Sun or The Rebel. But what you are implying is that Sun Media is not journalism or media. But it is just propaganda.

Is that correct in how I'm interperting your viewpoint?

apparently it is how you are interperting my comment. but it's not what my comment said.

never mentioned Sun media once.

thus your|:

Quote:
Because if it is then you are siding AGAINST PEN Canada, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression and the Canadian Association of Journalists.

is way out of fucking line.

don't remember whether it was you, rev or cody who referenced a similar poor cognition moment by saying you can tell the regulars here are on your side as they haven't weighed in.

just who you looking for to weigh in? and how nice of you to expropriate their voice apparently contained in their whoever they are silence.

Mighty Middle

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Anyway, full disclosure here.  I'm an "Easterner", from Toronto, no less.  And clearly the only reason I even care about any of this is my desire to put those Westerners back in their place.  Don't be fooled by my chin music about principles, or letting voters decide where their vote goes or whatever.  You can bet I'd NEVER criticize an Ontario party for doing this.

What is interesting Mr. Magoo is that there has been so much talk about this floor crossing being something regularly done in the West. However I pointed out that the NDP Governments in Manitoba and Sask have banned floor crossings, and gave concrete examples.

Yet quizzical (the Westerner) hasn't responded to how floor crossing is banned in those provinces, still using the narrative that Floor Crossings is an accepted Western practice. When clearly that isn't the case.

Mighty Middle

Michael Moriarity wrote:

The only message of my silence is that I don't care to participate in threads started by habitual gossip-mongers.

The topic is the NDP policy on Floor Crossing that is hardly gossip.

quizzical wrote:

never mentioned Sun media once.

quizzical you wrote

quizzical wrote:

lol, he (Lorne Gunter) of the Alberta Report, joining forces with Ezra on how the AB NDP was trying to muzzle journalists fame....

imv, he's not even thin gruel on the credibility scale.....and if you want to talk "principles" as being your motivator then you just made it impossible to stand there "on principle".....lol 

 

Last time I checked Lorne Gunter works for Edmonton Sun which is Sun Media.

jjuares wrote:

 Yes, those outlets are to journalism as what cotten candy is to food. Yes, it is a food but see how healthy you are if you make that a staple of your diet. Someone quoting Lorne Gunter on a site that fancies otself as progressive. FFS

I apologize then. I said before I AM NOT a fan of the work of the Rebel, Edmonton Sun & Lorne Gunter and I wasn't trying to promote their work of right-wing ideology.

But the question was

quizzical wrote:

not 1 bit of criticism from any AB media on it either. it's only an issue in ON i guess lolol

I said yes, there was criticism from Lorne Gunter of the Edmonton Sun.

Now I'm being told that the Edmonton Sun IS NOT MEDIA, despite PEN Canada, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression and the Canadian Association of Journalists saying the Edmonton Sun IS MEDIA.

But now that I know Rabble has policy where we cannot refrence Sun Media  I won't make the same mistake twice.

So thanks jjuares & quizzical for letting me know about this unknown policy that posters are forbidden to reference right-wing media to make a point. won't make the same mistake again.

JKR

Mighty Middle wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Anyway, full disclosure here.  I'm an "Easterner", from Toronto, no less.  And clearly the only reason I even care about any of this is my desire to put those Westerners back in their place.  Don't be fooled by my chin music about principles, or letting voters decide where their vote goes or whatever.  You can bet I'd NEVER criticize an Ontario party for doing this.

What is interesting Mr. Magoo is that there has been so much talk about this floor crossing being something regularly done in the West. However I pointed out that the NDP Governments in Manitoba and Sask have banned floor crossings, and gave concrete examples.

Yet quizzical (the Westerner) hasn't responded to how floor crossing is banned in those provinces, still using the narrative that Floor Crossings is an accepted Western practice. When clearly that isn't the case.

I guess you haven't heard that we've entered the post-truth era. Nowadays we can just say whatever favours our side without worrying about silly little facts.

quizzical

mighty middle, just as i never once mentioned Sun media (and thank you for putting up my posts proving i didn't and it was your wrongful interpretation)  i never once maintain anything about western canada and their norms. i spoke only about AB. didn't even know about Gordon Wilson.

refrain from putting words in my mouth.

there's already voice expropriation on the part of the "principled" people in this thread there need not be more.

talk about post truth on your part which jkr mentions.

 

Rev Pesky

jjuares wrote:
...Gee, are we restricted to your two questions or do we get to have some of our own?

You are free to ask as many questions as you want. In that this thread is titled "NDP Accepts Floor Crosser Without Having Run In By-Elxn" I thought I would restrict myself to questions pertaining to this issue. You may do otherwise,

My point was that what happened to Sandra Jansen, her experience in the Alberta PC party, what may have gone through her head when considering joining the NDP, all of the other things that may have influenced her decision, are irrelevant when considering the NDP response. The only thing to consider is why the NDP responded the way they did, specfically because of their past statements on floor-crossing.

I also offered what I thought was a principled position the NDP could have taken in response. A position that would have left their integrity intact, and at the same time emphasised the difference between the NDP and the PC party when it came to how they dealt with women in the party, and offer suport to Sandra Jansen at the same time.

See, the problem is this. Once a political party has sold its principles for 'a mess of pottage' as the saying goes, what is to prevent them from doing the same thing again? And perhaps that future event will be one which you feel strongly about, and which the party decides against your wishes. What then is your response? You have already accepted the loss of integrity, so you can't attack the party on that front.

This is about being able to believe the partry leadership when they say something.

For the record, I am not from 'the East', and the ony pearls I own are pearls of wisdom, and those I don't clutch in fear, but am ready to cast them when the occasion occurs... (yes, folks, that last is a joke, and you're entitled to laugh, either with me or at me).

 

 

 

jerrym

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Simons emphasizes that many Red Tories, in addition to Jansen, no longer feel comfortable in Kenney's PC machine.

May I just suggest again that the issue here isn't a couple of PCs feeling like their party is taking the wrong path, and wanting out, but rather the idea that having convinced electors to vote for them AND the PC party, they should now ask voters to vote for them AND another party?

That's all it is.  I'm happy to see them turn their backs on the PCs.  But they need to consult their constituents to make sure this is OK by them, too, and the only reasonable way to do that is by running again, and asking for their vote again.

Quote:
Simons emphasizes that many Red Tories, in addition to Jansen, no longer feel comfortable in Kenney's PC machine.

Did I miss a headline?  When did it become "Kenney's PC machine"?

You see this in terms of black and white with regard to floor crossing. I see this, like many things in politics, in terms of grey. Political parties have value but can also be straightjackets.

With regard to Kenney, I was referring to both the political apparatus he has set up to win the nomination, the ruthlessness with which he is employing it and the fact that he is already dominating the selection process. 

Quote:

 Alberta Progressive Conservative leadership candidate Jason Kenney delivered an organizational show of strength at the party’s annual policy meeting Saturday.

Kenney’s team bused in youth delegates, his team steered decisions on policy resolutions on issues like the carbon tax, and Kenney brought in former prime minister Stephen Harper.

Kenney, a former Conservative MP, said he is simply harnessing the nascent widespread support for a unified conservative movement. ....

Kenney’s team members were visible in the hallways of the convention centre, in blue or camouflage-coloured “Unite Alberta” baseball hats.

In debates, they defeated a motion to accept the principle of a carbon tax as long as it is revenue neutral. Kenney has stated he is against the NDP carbon tax in any form.

Alberta’s carbon tax takes effect on Jan. 1. It is expected to bring in $3 billion a year, hiking the costs of heating bills and gasoline at the pumps.

Kenney supporters also spoke against a resolution to give more power to the party’s board and president.

They also helped defeat a motion that would have prevented a party member from holding a membership in another party. Such a motion aids Kenney given he is seeking to join forces with the Wildrose.

https://www.google.ca/?client=safari&channel=mac_bm&gws_rd=cr&ei=bmoyWKe...

 

Quote:

Alberta's Progressive Conservative Party has launched an investigation after leadership candidate Jason Kenney broke party rules by appearing at a delegate selection meeting Wednesday night in Edmonton. 

Kenney and his campaign tactics were not welcome at the meeting, said party president Katherine O'Neill.

"The candidate, which I witnessed, came onto the premises where there was a delegate election meeting, and I had to ask him to leave the building," O'Neill said in an interview with CBC News.

O'Neill said party regulations are very clear. Candidates are not welcome at any of the delegate meetings, and Wednesday night's event in Edmonton–Ellerslie was no exception. 

She said it was "very disappointing" that Kenney broke the rules.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/jason-kenney-crashes-pc-delegate-...

 

 

 

jjuares

Mighty Middle wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

The only message of my silence is that I don't care to participate in threads started by habitual gossip-mongers.

The topic is the NDP policy on Floor Crossing that is hardly gossip.

quizzical wrote:

never mentioned Sun media once.

quizzical you wrote

quizzical wrote:

lol, he (Lorne Gunter) of the Alberta Report, joining forces with Ezra on how the AB NDP was trying to muzzle journalists fame....

imv, he's not even thin gruel on the credibility scale.....and if you want to talk "principles" as being your motivator then you just made it impossible to stand there "on principle".....lol 

 

Last time I checked Lorne Gunter works for Edmonton Sun which is Sun Media.

jjuares wrote:

 Yes, those outlets are to journalism as what cotten candy is to food. Yes, it is a food but see how healthy you are if you make that a staple of your diet. Someone quoting Lorne Gunter on a site that fancies otself as progressive. FFS

I apologize then. I said before I AM NOT a fan of the work of the Rebel, Edmonton Sun & Lorne Gunter and I wasn't trying to promote their work of right-wing ideology.

But the question was

quizzical wrote:

not 1 bit of criticism from any AB media on it either. it's only an issue in ON i guess lolol

I said yes, there was criticism from Lorne Gunter of the Edmonton Sun.

Now I'm being told that the Edmonton Sun IS NOT MEDIA, despite PEN Canada, Canadian Journalists for Free Expression and the Canadian Association of Journalists saying the Edmonton Sun IS MEDIA.

But now that I know Rabble has policy where we cannot refrence Sun Media  I won't make the same mistake twice.

So thanks jjuares & quizzical for letting me know about this unknown policy that posters are forbidden to reference right-wing media to make a point. won't make the same mistake again.


You can quote anyone you wish. However, if you quote Lorne Gunter I just will find it difficult to stop laughing to make any reply.

jjuares

Rev Pesky wrote:

jjuares wrote:
...Gee, are we restricted to your two questions or do we get to have some of our own?

You are free to ask as many questions as you want.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

jjuares

Hmm actually here is Notley's comments on floor crossing from 2014.
And here is the most important part of the quote.

"When the MLA crosses the floor, it means they're abandoning their voters, unless the party has really really gone a different direction from the way they had originally presented themselves."

Now the reason why this is important is that not only Notley but Jansen is also making the argument that the PC's are going in a different direction than they way they had presented themselves. And Notley in 20014 said this is the circumstances that floor crossing is justified. This is exactly the circumstances she was saying floor crossing is justified.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e50lJ7YSM3I

Rev Pesky

jjuares wrote:
Hmm actually here is Notley's comments on floor crossing from 2014. And here is the most important part of the quote. "When the MLA crosses the floor, it means they're abandoning their voters, unless the party has really really gone a different direction from the way they had originally presented themselves." Now the reason why this is important is that not only Notley but Jansen is also making the argument that the PC's are going in a different direction than they way they had presented themselves. And Notley in 20014 said this is the circumstances that floor crossing is justified. This is exactly the circumstances she was saying floor crossing is justified.
">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e50lJ7YSM3I

And what, pray tell, is the 'different direction' that the Alberta PC party is taking now, compared to when they accepted the wholesale floor-crossing of the Wildrose Party. I would have thought that if the PC party was heading further right wing, that would have been the time when it became evident. But apparently Sandra Jansen had no misgivings about that direction, even though it was prior to the last election, wherein she ran on the PC ticket.

Given that the PC party at this point doesn't have a leader, one could question how they are going in a different direction now. The fact is, they're not going in any direction at all, at least until after the leadership election.

 

jjuares

Rev Pesky wrote:

jjuares wrote:
Hmm actually here is Notley's comments on floor crossing from 2014. And here is the most important part of the quote. "When the MLA crosses the floor, it means they're abandoning their voters, unless the party has really really gone a different direction from the way they had originally presented themselves." Now the reason why this is important is that not only Notley but Jansen is also making the argument that the PC's are going in a different direction than they way they had presented themselves. And Notley in 20014 said this is the circumstances that floor crossing is justified. This is exactly the circumstances she was saying floor crossing is justified.
">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e50lJ7YSM3I

And what, pray tell, is the 'different direction' that the Alberta PC party is taking now, compared to when they accepted the wholesale floor-crossing of the Wildrose Party. I would have thought that if the PC party was heading further right wing, that would have been the time when it became evident. But apparently Sandra Jansen had no misgivings about that direction, even though it was prior to the last election, wherein she ran on the PC ticket.

Given that the PC party at this point doesn't have a leader, one could question how they are going in a different direction now. The fact is, they're not going in any direction at all, at least until after the leadership election.

 


Well actually they ran as a centrist party last election pointing out that they fell in between WR and the NDP. And of course the heavy favourite to win the leadership wants to merge with the right wing party they denounced as being too extreme. And of course Jansen was against that. Furthermore she pointed out the behaviour towards her was something new to the party. If this isnt a new direction for the party what the hell is it?