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NDP Leadership #97

TheArchitect
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The discussion continues!


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NorthReport
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Dewar’s camp suggests unnamed leadership contenders could ‘dishonour’ NDP principles, NDP players slam Dewar's poll NDP MP and leadership candidate Paul Dewar has stirred up opposing camps in the NDP leadership race with a letter from his campaign manager suggesting either one or more of the other candidates is set to 'dishonour' NDP principles by moving the party to the right to become 'another Liberal party.'

http://www.hilltimes.com/news/politics/2012/02/14/dewar%E2%80%99s-camp-s...

 

BTW Topp will be in Surrey tomorrow evening.


NorthReport
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Gaian
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Another thread on the miracle of the loaves. :)

flight from kamakura
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M. Mulcair déclare que les conservateurs utilisent les richesses du pays à des fins partisanes. « Ils s’attaquent à nos institutions, dont Service Canada, le Centre de sauvetage de Québec, Postes Canada, l’Institut Maurice-Lamontagne. Le premier choix des conservateurs pour équilibrer le budget, c’est de couper dans les services directs à la population. Jamais le NPD ne fera un tel choix. La solution est plutôt de se donner une administration publique plus efficace. Les conservateurs ne prennent pas de décision en s’appuyant sur des faits, mais sur des préjugés. »

http://www.lavantage.qc.ca/actualite/14-02-2012-thomas-mulcair-a-rimousk...

exactly.


Brachina
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I'm confused about one thing the pundit guide suggests that the Mulcair campaign has dropped expectations on thier goal of gaining 20000 new member saying its closer to 10000. But does that mean Mulcair's campaign is under 20000 in signing new Quebec members or that there are under 20000 Quebec members period? How would Mulcair's team know how many people the other campaigns have signed up? Or even the NDP itself has signed up, after all the figures have not been made public.

flight from kamakura
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though not public, the numbers may be available to the campaigns.


Bill Davis
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They are indeed, I believe they get bi-weekly updates.

 


KenS
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Tarmagant wrote:

Romeo Saganash specifically criticized Topp's tax plan during the Halifax debate, saying raising taxes is a toxic issue for the NDP. And on his website he said "I don't think an income tax increase is the right way to go for Canada."

Romeo did not say raising taxes is toxic for the NDP. I dont agree with the alternative he offered, because it wont raise the kind of money required. But unlike Mulcair, he offered a consistent, nuanced and politicaly astute strategy.


NorthReport
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I tired of discussing how many people can dance on the head of a pin.

I want to win the next election and with Tom's leadership we can pull it off.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/bruce-anders...

So back to the NDP race. Reading about Thomas Mulcair’s meeting with the Toronto Star editorial board, I couldn’t help but wonder if something different may be starting to happen here.

That Mulcair said edgy, brash things was not shocking. That the challenges he threw down were mostly aimed at the feet of NDP members was what caught my attention.

He talked about fatigue with ‘50s boiler plate language of social democracy and admitted to meeting party members who fear the implications of winning power, believing it would be the result of an apocalyptic soul-selling. He challenged the orthodoxy of styling the NDP as the champion of “ordinary people,” suggesting that good progressive ideas will be supported by more voters if they are not always freighted with class warfare branding.

On NAFTA, Mulcair dismissed the idea of scrapping the deal, said the oil sands shouldn’t be shut down, and that tax increases would only be considered as a last resort in a government he would run.

I’m not suggesting his positions would win broad acceptance; there are lots of aspects of them that would still give pause to centrist voters. But I do think his themes are challenging to NDP voters: He’s leaving little doubt that if they want to go the next step as a party and seriously try to win an election, that’s what he wants to do as well. Inferentially, he’s asking them to consider if the same can be said for his opponents.

No doubt, in speaking out this way, Mulcair is taking a gamble in terms of the internal dynamics of this leadership race. But to borrow a term from René Lévesque, it may well be a beau risque for him – and an interesting argument for his party to consider.


josh
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Yes, becoming more like the Liberal party is the ticket. Look how well it worked for them last time. All part of the "renewal" process I guess. If the NDP's traditional viewpoint and base seem such an anathema to Mulcair, makes you wonder why he wants to lead it.

DSloth
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josh wrote:
Yes, becoming more like the Liberal party is the ticket. Look how well it worked for them last time. All part of the "renewal" process I guess. If the NDP's traditional viewpoint and base seem such an anathema to Mulcair, makes you wonder why he wants to lead it.

Yeah It's almost like you're describing a ridiculous caricature of the man instead of the guy who turned down a prestigious spot with the Liberals to run for a fourth place party because he believed in them.  


flight from kamakura
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mulcair is getting us ready to replace the liberals, not become them.  you have to go and listen to him speak for any length of time - none of this stuff comes out.  what he's offering is a professional governance model based very much around the quebec consensus.  one of my earliest memories of the ndp was some western mps protesting gas prices outside of a gas station, it's a nice bit of solidarity, but not the role of a government-in-waiting.  i think people underestimate how much work it is to mount a credible opposition to the government, running the opposition is like running a fairly large business, competing directly with a much larger competitor.  the ndp pre-2008/pre-2011 just couldn't be up to that task.  think of the difference between quebec solidaire and the pq - i vote solidaire, but the vast majority of people (myself included on some days) wouldn't want them within shouting distance of the premier's office.


Lord Palmerston
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It's kind of funny how people think unlike just about every social democratic "modernizer" who talked like Mulcair is now, Mulcair has no intention to move to the right, but rather just "update" the language.  

Has Mulcair noticed the Occupy movement?  The progressive discourse is moving leftward right now.   


flight from kamakura
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like i said, just listen to what the substance of his proposals are.  i can't think of a single position he holds that doesn't line up exactly with what jack was proposing.  all he's saying on the tax issue is that it would be unproductive and entirely symbolic to promise to raise taxes for a budget that wouldn't be delivered until 2015 - there's no win there for the ndp.

and if he doesn't come out of this whole thing as the leader, he's very well positioned to rebuff the harper attack machine.


socialdemocrati...
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I just always see these people screaming "fire" whenever Mulcair speaks. But there's no fire, not even smoke.

"Modernizing". Oh my god. Everyone knows Modernity is right-wing concept. Foot in mouth

Mulcair pointed out that in Quebec/Outremont, they reached out to communities who historically vote liberal, like the Vietnamese community in his riding. Their interests would be better served by the NDP. He convinced them to lend their vote in a by-election, and they've been solidly NDP ever since. He mentioned that since he's toured the rest of the country, he's noted the surprising LACK of diversity in other ridings, even in Toronto.

And as a Torontonian, I'll tell you that *I'm* disappointed in the lack of diversity in the NDP here. I have a lot of friends who work with racialized youth and other poor/marginalized/anti-racist groups. But if you ask them about politics, a lot of the stakeholders in these communities are either non-political, or Liberal. And if you ask them why they support the Liberals over the NDP, they can't tell you why exactly. They sympathize with us, but they never really connect to us. We just hope our message delivers itself, and our organization remains largely anglo-protestant.

So yes, we can afford to modernize. I'm not even talking about Mulcair. I'm talking about actually improving the way we organize.

The idea of dropping "democratic socialism" from the Party Platform was advanced by none other than our new patron saint Jack Layton.

If this idea causes you panic, you shouldn't be worried about this leadership election, because we've apparently been sellouts since 2003.


TheArchitect
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flight from kamakura wrote:

one of my earliest memories of the ndp was some western mps protesting gas prices outside of a gas station, it's a nice bit of solidarity, but not the role of a government-in-waiting.

Well, I must admit that holding a press conference at a gas station is something that no serious politician with any chance of winning election to anything of importance would ever do.


flight from kamakura
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hahah, great one!  but seriously, we're not catering to the american public.


dacckon
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The point was that Layton was a solidly a progressive who moderated his stance in order to win. I expected that if he won government, the agenda would be more progressive than the platform put out in a election.


NorthReport
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I think therre is more to Tom's encounter with the member in Nanaimo than we realize when she said if we formed government we would have sold out. lol 


TheArchitect
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flight from kamakura wrote:

hahah, great one!  but seriously, we're not catering to the american public.

Thanks!  I assure you I'm not seriously advocating holding events at gas stations; I just couldn't resist posting the image.


TheArchitect
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[Double post]


wage zombie
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flight from kamakura wrote:

like i said, just listen to what the substance of his proposals are.  i can't think of a single position he holds that doesn't line up exactly with what jack was proposing.  all he's saying on the tax issue is that it would be unproductive and entirely symbolic to promise to raise taxes for a budget that wouldn't be delivered until 2015 - there's no win there for the ndp.

Where is the substance in his proposals?

I'm not trying to be dificult here...I really want to know.  I have been waiting this whole time to get a sense of what Mulcaid would do as Leader.  What would he actually do?

I feel like his proposals are lacking in both substance and boldness.  Everything is vague, with details to be filled in later.  Additionally, I don't know of anything he's proposed that couldn't have been just as easily proposed by the Liberal Party.


Hunky_Monkey
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In the previous thread, my good friend mark_alfred said...
Quote:
But Armine Yalnizyan, a senior economist at the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, says wealthier Canadians should be taxed more, noting that according to data, Canadian millionaires are paying tax rates equivalent to those in the 1920s.
Quote:
I trust the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives more than the Canadian Taxpayer Federation. However, if some Mulcair fans prefer the latter, that's their prerogative, I suppose.
Nice swipe. I used numbers from the CTF used in a CBC article. Are they inaccurate? I don't know but I did point out the source of the numbers. One thing you didn't mention by Yalnizyan...
Quote:
"You wouldn’t get a huge amount by taxing them at a higher rate but you'd get something," said Yalnizyan
Also interesting to note she talks more about millionaires in Canada. Let's face it... quite a difference between $250,000 and $1,000,000.

wage zombie
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socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

"Modernizing". Oh my god. Everyone knows Modernity is right-wing concept. Foot in mouth

Maybe you are not aware of this, but for decades there have been a steady stream of people who want to "modernize" social democratic parties.  They never want to move right--they just just want to change the party to make it more palatable to the masses, but of course they'll keep the values.

The problem is, when it comes time to stand up for social democratic values, they don't.

So how is Mulcair different from the many people coming before him who say the same things as he's saying now?

I don't really understand what Mulcair's offering that is new.


Lord Palmerston
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And that's true.  It's only a starting point.  Necessary but not sufficient.  


socialdemocrati...
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The difference is all of those parties were working from a losing position. We're here working from a historic victory. And yes, that historic victory involved some amount of modernizing under Jack Layton, including such reforms as killing affiliated membership. If modernization is something to fear, then it's too late, because it's already happening.

This all warrants skepticism. But all the alternatives, with the possible exception of maybe Nash, are all on board this train.


Hunky_Monkey
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Lord Palmerston wrote:

It's kind of funny how people think unlike just about every social democratic "modernizer" who talked like Mulcair is now, Mulcair has no intention to move to the right, but rather just "update" the language.  

Has Mulcair noticed the Occupy movement?  The progressive discourse is moving leftward right now.   

My lord... :) Have you gone to hear Mulcair in person? Asked him some direct questions?

RevolutionPlease
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wage zombie wrote:

I feel like his proposals are lacking in both substance and boldness.  Everything is vague, with details to be filled in later.  Additionally, I don't know of anything he's proposed that couldn't have been just as easily proposed by the Liberal Party.

Therein lies the rub. It worked to get Liberals elected in the past. Tom's seen how it's done. Now, can we trust him to do the opposite if he gains power?

Hunky_Monkey
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wage zombie wrote:

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

"Modernizing". Oh my god. Everyone knows Modernity is right-wing concept. Foot in mouth

Maybe you are not aware of this, but for decades there have been a steady stream of people who want to "modernize" social democratic parties.  They never want to move right--they just just want to change the party to make it more palatable to the masses, but of course they'll keep the values.

The problem is, when it comes time to stand up for social democratic values, they don't.

So how is Mulcair different from the many people coming before him who say the same things as he's saying now?

I don't really understand what Mulcair's offering that is new.

Jack modernized the party in more ways than fundraising and organization. I doubt he would have stopped in his tracks in May. What Mulcair talks about is what happened in Quebec... how we got rid of the yes, the old boilerplate language... and talked to voters in a new and inclusive way. He wants to use that model in the rest of Canada.

NorthReport
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It's called leadership.

 

http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=185260

Mulcair is said “not to work well with others.” Sometimes this is called commitment and charisma; Pierre Trudeau wasn’t terrific at getting along, but his persona was electrifying, and he was electoral gold for a generation despite his somewhat disagreeable approach to colleagues. Maybe Mulcair just knows what he wants.


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