NDP leadership debate: December 4

Two comments about the debate:

1. Each candidate will have only six minutes in each language to make his/her points. This is far too little to get a sense of their real abilities. Anyone can memorize a couple answers in French and sound convincing but it is unlikely to be  true test. The format handicaps strong candidates and protects weak ones.

2. Be cautious of the online polls which are open to everyone. The CBC online poll on leadership preferences was badly skewed by the camp of one particular candidate which swamped it, thereby rendering it meaningless.

Everyone have a good time tomorrow and try to be objective about who performed best regardless of any preset preferences.

I'll look for Peter's email address and see what he says.

Speaking of which, if anyone needs to hide out for a while, this is a pretty isolated territory. I have a foam mattress you can use.

I just checked out his blog. Concur.

Accidental Deliberations, Dennis Gruending, Dr. Dawg, Alison at Creekside .... need I go on ....

to me this guy loses all credibility when his main comment about Niki Ashton is the "poor qulity of her French" (sic.). I'm not necessarily supporting Niki and I have other concerns about her as a poetntial leader - but if there is one thing no reasonable person could attack her for - its her French. I would say that she is almost 100% fluent and that her French abilities are probably one of her biggest strengths as a candidate not a weakness.

This is going to be my Grey Cup. And without Nickelback.

I don't understand why people don't plan their wardrobes better. Why would Chisholm wear a blue tie? Why is Mulcair wearing red?

My views on the opening statements:

Chisholm - Did not speak strongly, for a prepared speech he was forgetting what to say.

Ahston - She did much better then Chisholm and spoke strongly.

Topp - I didn't really understand everything he was trying to say.

Cullen - Spoke better and laid out a vision.

Mulcair - Isn't this suppose to be the English portion, why is he speaking in French? Nothing great said.

Dewar -  Telling who he is, and lays out some of his vision.

Saganash - Not a strong speaker, mentions wanting to be Prime Minister though.

Nash - Spoke strongly laid out a vision, and mentioned a bit of who she is.

Singh - For someone who is considered the long-shot rookie he was one of the better speakers.

I think Ashton, Dewar and Nash (not in any particular order) were the best.

Singh's confidence is impressive. Cullen is also good, it's a shame he holds views abhorrent to me. Topp is better than I'd expected, and Saganash shakier.

I think Mulcair will do well when he debates directly /w another candidate.

I don't think Topp is doing so well, a bit aggressive.

Is Saganash sick?  He seems to be having trouble talking or something.

Ashston would be winning more points with her strong performance if she would stop saying 'new politics' so much.

Cullen asking Ashton what she thought of his plan was pretty dirty.

Dewar's appeal is still lost on me.

And I have to say, I'm liking Topp better now. Not well enough to vote for him, but enough to be relatively comfortable with him should he win.

Quite so. It's refreshing.

I'm not sure if that was a trap.

Topp has done better, but it doesn't make him the best of the debate. He may recover in the French part.

Cullen has been very articulate. Mulcair as well is detailed. Nash has been outstanding, perhaps the best so far.

Dewar has done well. Ashton is also very confident.

Edit: damned cpac live is now having buffering issues.

I wasn't fussy on Topp before the debate, and this debate made me like him less. I'm surprised Jeff that you like him more after this but everyone got their own opinions.

Cullen has a sense of humour but I still don't find him that great. Chisholm is not a very strong speaker for someone who was the Leader of the Official Opposition.

I expected Mulcair to stand out more in this debate then he did and I actually think Ashton was one of the best. She's a strong clear speaker, she's straight forward and gets to the point when she speaks.

My scorecard reads, after the English debate:

1) Nash, Mulcair, Ashton  (top tier)

2) Dewar, Cullen, Topp  (middle tier)

3) Saganash, Chisholm, Singh  (bottome tier)

Did Chisholm speak in English :( ?

Chisholm spoke in English and has a simultaneous translation device in his ear. Dewar's French was atrocious! I am so disappointed.

And hey... no one told me Singh could speak French! Either that or he's been brilliantly rehearsed. Waiting to hear him in the ad lib stuff.

Just my estimation of his ability to hold his own in a debate. While my estimation of Saganash's ability to do the same has fallen considerably. It's not everything, but it's an important thing in our politics.

Mulcair's is the freshest voice today, IMO.

"comme le fighter jets"LOL

I think Mulcair is equally capable of being a teddy bear or a grizzly bear depending on what the situation necessitates.

Saganash and Singh are doing suprisingly well in my view. Dewar is incredibly stiff.  Topp and Nash are definitely the winners in my view so far. Both seem natural. Topp tops Nash where language is concerned. Mulcair.. oy, the constant self-boasting is a bit tiring, as was that little stunt he pulled where he spoke English in the French debate. Nice opportunity to show his "lighter" side. 

There's a young guy yawning behind Chisholm!   Now he looks like he fell asleep, and woke up with a start - he's listening to Chisholm and wondering "what the hell?"

Next to Singh, perhaps.

Is Topp trying to show he's "tough" enough to go against Harper? Your first introduction with all the candidates and you're looking like a snarky pitbull. Not coming across well. You could even see it in the audience.

I missed the beginning, but here are my impressions.

First, too many candidates. Candidates don't have the time to differentiate each other because they first establish their support of the NDP's values, but then they run out of time to define their own particular positions. Some candidates need to bow out for the good of the race.

I'm thinking that Saganash and Ashton don't currently have the experience for the job. Niki Ashton is young, she'll have more chances if she keeps at it, she may be a rising star, but she hasn't reached the level needed currently. She might have been good if the NDP wasn't in position to become a government in waiting. Saganash is particularly nervous and inexperienced with the political scene. Chisholm and Singh have a lot of trouble in French, that is currently unacceptable for the NDP if it wants to keep its support in Québec. I'd finally say that Gewar also is a bit nervous and not ready either.

Second, Thomas Mulcair and Nathan Cullen are doing the best job in this format. They seem most at ease. Brian Topp seems to know what he is talking about, but he is not as at ease. Currently, I wouldn't vote for him, but he has potential. Peggy Nash is okay, she makes me think of Pelosi a bit also.

absolutely agree with Unionist above - Cullen is a very nice surprise in this French debate.  He has an ease and confidence that is shocking, even with all his mistakes.

Interesting -  I never would have put Peggy as the winner of English language part.

Stupid question: "Who's your second choice?" I would have asked: "Who's your third choce?"

Actually, now that I think of it, I asked one of the candidates the same question. So call me stupid! Anyway, some good answers - so I guess it confirms that there are no stupid questions.

Surprisingly, I can most see Cullen going head to head with other party leaders.  Mulcair is good but there's something lacking - maybe he seems too detached?  Topp is also good though I agree that at times he seems smug.  I like his directness and willingness to engage other candidates.

I would have asked who's your last choice!

And who said that Niki Ashton's French was poor? Cripes! I wish mine was twice as bad!

Will anyone drop out after this? I can't see Chisholm going forward.

Chisolm should be dropping out.  It's embarrassing.  He will make a great minister some day, but the langauge skills are not just there.

Oh, not very classy, Topp mentions that Broadbent is in the hall. Endorsements forever!

Several MPs tried to talk him out of running. He didn't want to listen. But after paying $15,000 to enter, who knows if he will drop out...

Wow, Mulcair, good point which should resonate. We won by going way beyond our traditional constituency in Québec. Gotta do it everywhere.

English debate. It is hard to score, but here is a stab: Chisholm>Mulcair>Dewar>Topp>Singh>Cullen>Nash>Ashton>Saganash

I'm more confident with my ranking near the lower end than the higher end. Dewar surprised me with his handling of Topp's attack. Dewar didn't addressed the substance of Topp's attack but he found ways to manage the conversation. Chisholm was relaxed at the podium and spoke very clearly. Mulcair was stiff but spoke clearly and played it safe. Topp came across as negative in his attack. It was a good jibe but he needed to avoid interrupting Dewar too much in order to make his point. Singh differentiated himself with interesting policies and solid self-confidence. Cullen was the only candidate that made people laugh, but he repeated himself a lot and did not say much of substance. Nash spoke lethargically. Ashton was platitudinous in the extreme. Saganash seemed very nervous and had trouble communicating.

He said he works hard to learn French but "c'est tough"

Maybe that's what I've been missing... hearing he's quite impressive but then I listen to him it doesn't match up.

I'm seeing Singh and Chisholm for the first time. Not impressed by either of them.

If Chisholm didn't have the self-awareness to stay out of the race, I'm unsure he has the sense of shame now to quit.

I think Dewar's performance should see him drop in the estimation of many. Topp sounded assured, but looked haughty. Mulcair the warmest and most natural. Saganash's lack of confidence in English shows itself to be a huge stumbling block.

Mulcair was calm and detailed

Nash performed the best in the English Debate

Topp did fantastic in French, I felt that he recovered a bit from the pointless attack on Dewar. He should have realized the time limit doesn't allow for back and forth.

Chisholm should drop ASAP

Singh seems like a single issue candidate. He's more of a cabinet minister than a prime minister

Saganash didn't perform as well as I expected. Perhaps he should stay in the race and we can see if he improves.

Dewar lacked in French.

Ashton has potential, she did very well.

Am I the only one who was bothered by Chisholm's "give me a chance to learn French" plea at the end of the debate?

Lol'd @ the first call. Knows Cullen personally.

Chisholm should absolutely drop out.

No, I would put Cullen ahead of Dewar even if his grammar is worse, simply because I think Francophones would find Cullen the more engaging speaker.  I don't know Cullen's background, but it would seem that with a bit of targeted training he could become very good indeed.  Dewar likely has a cap on how good he can get.

I kinda liked Justin Ling's approach.

Than Dewar, I assume you mean. Yes, though both are improved from early days. Cullen has worked hard on his accent and fluency, though he still makes a lot of grammatical errors. Dewar is better than he was in all areas, but was starting from further back.

I feel like I should like Mulcair better after his performance, but I don't.  Something about his demeanour seemed phony. 

Maybe it's just me.

My verdict: I thought Mulcair and Cullen were the best all-around performers in both debates, though Mulcair, being more bilingual, had the clear advantage. Nash was nearly as good, though she came across as somewhat less engaging than those two.

All of the others also impressed on some fronts, but revealed various weaknesses at the same time.

No she isn't "almost 100% fluent". She thinks in English and translates (very fast, mind you) into French. For example, she said "Je vous demande pour votre appui." That's not just an error - it's a sign of someone who rarely has occasion to speak French in real life, or doesn't listen much. Not a criticism of Niki. I'm sure she knows her limits and is working on them. But not up to your rating yet.

Mulcair is getting the first press conference.

I think he did very well and was impressive. He is going up in my stock. 

Other folks who impressed. Singh (I had no real expectations) and Ashton.

I really wish that Cullen was not so loud about his bad ideas.

Who did not perform? Topp and Chisholm. Chisholm should drop out.

I think Cullen's style masks some of his mistakes, and that Dewar's nerves got the better of him.  But, I'm in no way committed to the idea that Dewar's formal French is better, either.  I prefer Cullen's French, period.

Here is my assessment of the shortcomings of some of the candidates, and what can be done.

Chisholm has no French, and I doubt that issue can be rectified.

Dewar may be well advised to do some remedial French.

Saganash needs to practice and become more comfortable in English.

Nash needs to learn more about the challenges facing people outside large urban centres.

Ashton should couple her energy and enthusiasm with some concrete policies, proposals, and accomplishments.

Cullen unfortunately can't go back in time and un-announce the idea of running joint candidates with the Liberals and Greens.

I stopped watching a few minutes into the French debate, from what I saw on Twitter people thought that Saganash had the best French with Mulcair and Topp next. What was interesting though was that someone said Mulcair and Topp's French was comparable to Rae's and Ignatieff's. Several people were also saying that Cullen was actually better then both Ashton and Nash. Dewar's French was compared to Harper's several years ago, but he was better the Singh and obviously Chisholm. 

Dewar and Cullen were given props for most promoting their policies. 

Mulcair had me running to google when he said "clef de voûte." He has an anglo accent that comes out now and again. Topp made grammatical mistakes and stumbled around with his sentences. Topp's accent is great. Something tells me that since he left Québec, Topp hasn't had as much ocassion to use French and so he is more accustomed to thinking in English grammatical structures. Saganash has the best accent and speaks excellent French. The only way in which Cullen's French is better than Ashton or Nash is that he has more of a joual accent, like Layton. 

I thought Sagenesh just had a "Jack Layton" moment. He said that he was very excited to be on the stage with the next Prime Minister of Canada, and it just made me think of Jack, and I thought to myself, Jack for sure would have said something so optimistic sounding. Good for him.

Watching Niki Ashton now, she makes me think of Judy. The same kind of mannerism, the same kind of animation, the same kind of enthusiasim, the same kind of attack and lucidity.

You know, I looked at these people and I thought to myself there is no way I was in their league in any way, but I also got the feeling that really meant it when they talked about meeting the needs of all Canadians. I felt a little more positive.

From the media scrum, Chisholm isn't budging. He's got to realize he's taking up space.

Note to candidates (at least three of them, if not more, made that mistake): en français, on n'adresse pas des problèmes. On se penche sur ces problèmes, on s'y attaque, on les règle, si tout va bien... Apologies for this somewhat trivial remark, but hearing this construction 5 or 6 times was a little grating.

Of the various assessments, the following one made by dacckon is the one that most closely mirrors mine: