NDP Leadership Part 7

Perhaps you could learn to spell his name properly before trashing him. It's MuLcair.

"Perhaps you could learn to spell his name properly before trashing him. It's MuLcair."

Thanks, I spelled Gerard's name wrong too. Drinks discussing this topic-home-check rabble-rambling post.

Hey don't get me wrong I think Libby's great. But yes French is an issue and I don't think she knows Quebec that well. In all honestly there are just little things that stick out, like flip flopping over the Israel/Palestine comment on that ridiculous video. I find her indecisive. I know it's all silly and I would never bash her or anything, I just don't think she'd be a great leader for the party. MuLcair I'm happy to "trash" though.

That is what I heard too.

Bingo, Catchfire.

WTF with the posting system???

Care to give us a list of positions that makes Mulcair to the right of the party?

During the Outremont by-election I spoke with a law student from McGill who was campaigning for the Liberals. I asked him about the prospects and he predicted Mulciar's victory long before the polls indicated he would win. He gave a number of reasons as I remember:

1. Mulcair was very respected as a provincial cabinet minister, particularly when he resigned on a matter of principle when Charest was pushing a condo develoment in a provincial park.

2. The team he had assembled. Mulcair had great support amongst my friend's classmates at McGill. He said "they love him and will do anything for him."

3. "He is a real thoroughbred." Very smart and presents himself very well in the media. 

4. "His opponents are afraid of him."

After Mulcair's impressive win I paid closer attention to him and all these assessments have been born out. Look at some of his clips on Youtube. There was a half hour interview on more personal matters that Catherine Clark did on CPAC ( I can't find it now) but it shows a warmth and charm completely out of sync with the recent smears against his character. He can be magnificent in question period. You can see the Cons run for cover.

Two more anecdotes. I spent some time in Outremont in the last week of the spring campaign. I wore a Jack Layton button into a cafe in Mile End. People in tables to either side saw it and engaged me in discussions about the election. They all loved Jack but they revered Mulcair at least as much. 

I also visited Mulcair's campaign office twice. I didn't meet him but the loyalty of his team was palpable. I met a young woman who turned out to be a candidate in one of the suburban ridings. She is now an MP. I asked her why she wasn't campaigning in her own riding. This was at the point when the party was soaring in the Quebec polls and when she had obviously had a chance to win. It was also when a local poll showed Mulcair 22 points ahead with no prospects of losing. She said, "It is so much more important to elect Thomas than to elect me."

I agree with Jan and Stockholm and others that the smears are really indicative of the concern his opponents in the media and other parties have for the prospect of his leadership. (Indeed I started the thread "Kneecapping the next leader" a month ago in response to this media campaign) They see what we should see beyond their swiftboating. That he is the NDP's best hope of taking power.

At this point, the English-language media will never admit that Mulcair has charm or charisma, so people will have to make their  mind up on that count for themselves.  In the early days of his leadership, and even as time went on, the media often slammed Jack as well (too urban, too slick, too much like a used car salesman; he was also attacked for his lack of clarity on the Clarity Act, and for his "homeless" comment on Paul Martin). For a long time, many in the media wouldn't admit that he had charisma or strength as a leader (especially in contrast to various lackluster Liberal leaders). 

This last point will be a convenient stick to beat many a leadership candidate with, and eventually the leader.  No one will ever be seen as having it and any lack of success will be explained as being the result of a lack of it.

I haven't made my mind up about the leadership question or Mulcair, (or any of the candidates, in fact, since the leadership race is not yet underway), but there is no evidence so far that Mulcair lacks the ability to connect with people or that he is an unpleasant person.  This is all media spin.

For instance, some people have implied that it was "arrogant" of Mulcair to suggest that he had anything to do with the NDP's success in Quebec, which was apparently all Jack and Jack's personality.  I don't think so;  I think Mulcair shares some of the credit for raising the party's profile, enabling them to attract some good candidates and being the public face and voice of the NDP in Quebec in the years since he was elected. 

That doesn't mean that there aren't good leadership candidates out there aside from Mulcair.  But it's wrong to dismiss one of the strongest contenders before the race has even begun. It's especially troubling that the English media has begun doing just that.   I don't even think that this is entirely intentional; it's just that journalists and spin-doctors are always looking for a narrative (and, in some cases, one that is unfavourable to the NDP), and raising complications or problems about Mulcair's potential leadership (since he is a strong contender) will provide just that opportunity. 

nicky, thanks for the CPAC tip... Here are links to interviews of many current leadership contenders with Catherine Clark on Beyond Politics. Most of the interviews are about their family life growing up, nice to get to the know the MPs better.

Thomas Mulcair: http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&pagetype=vod&hl=e&clipID=2690

Meagan Leslie: http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&pagetype=vod&h...

Peter Julian: http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&pagetype=vod&h...

Paul Dewar: http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&pagetype=vod&h...

Charlie Angus: http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&pagetype=vod&h...

and a wonderful interview with Jack from 2008: http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&pagetype=vod&h...

Perhaps as "Tom", Mulcair can become as popular as "Jack". I'm looking forward to news out of Quebec that shows support for him from other MPs there. And I hope to hear from Northern Ontario's Charlie Angus (note, it's not "Charles") on that very question. Because the fellow is selfless.

I wish the leadership race would officially get started - I'm tired of it already.

NOT.

Not like Harper is "Steve", I suppose.

Dacckon, you could try and look up his speeches in the House of Commons and watch them on ParlVU. He has very good credentials, but obviously would probably have preferred more time as an MP first.

But I would really encourage you not to think defensively about Conservative attacks, or be deterred by what you imagine them to be. We can't let that dictate our choices, though we must deal with them if and when they come.

I think my membership renewal cost me all of $5.00.   Does that entitle me to a vote?

I have to disagree there. Being fluently bilingual on day one is essential. The NDP has too much to lose in francophone Quebec for it to be otherwise.

Besides being fluently bilingual and fully knowledgeable about NDP policy, the next leader will have to be someone who (like Jack Layton) can stand up to Harper and his bullies (especially John Baird) in the House of Commons in fierce debate - and stand up to insults and slurs and not wither away. It's a tough environment. I think Mulcair is the one MP the Cons think twice about trying to provoke because I've seen him give as well as he gets.

I've seen people make this assertion before but the answer in this context is a great, big NO. You don't at the age of 60 just wake up one morning and say "oh gee, i think I'll become totally fluent in French and by this time next year, you won't even be able to tll that my mother tongue is actually English". It does not work that way. Children under the age of 7 can pick up a language very quickly. For adults it involves a commitment of YEARS of study and immersion where learning French is your full-time job 24 hours a day, seven days a week - and even then you will probably never achieve real fluency. In the case of Libby Davies, she has been an MP since 1997 and all those years she has had access to free state of the art French lessons. If she didn't manage to achieve total, perfect, flawless French after 14 years of having access to those lessons - we have to assume that she isn't going to do it in the next few months because a few people think she shoudl become leader.

The next leader of the NDP will have to as close as possible to being PERFECTLY bilingual from the day they announce their candidacy. On the job training is not an option.

At best, if you were an anglophone who already spoke French quite well, you MIGHT be able to argue that you would some some immersion programs to raise the level of your French - but if your French can't be described as "fluent" to begin with then you really cannot be considered a serious leadership candidate. The same would go for anyone French speaking who didn't speak English.

Awesome videos Sara Mayo.

I agree with some of what stockholm has said, bilingualism is required, especially with such a large QC caucus. There are still seats we can win in QC as well as in other provinces with francophone communities. Alot of NDP support comes from populism, and that has to be communicated properly.

(Edit: I smell sarcasm below me)

No actually Harper got serious about learning French even in high school and back in the 90s when he was a Reform MP, he was often on panels on Radio-Canada because he was the only Reform MP who could speak French.

Not in time she can't, unless the Telefrancais magic pineapple casts a spell on her or something.

That of course would have meant Jack was not a possible leadership choice.  He did travel for quite some time with a French coach while he got up to speed.  

I find it hilarious that Jack is the gold medal standard and he would not make the grade in this new universe.  

Thanks to Sara Mayo for posting the video links. Really worth watching. I was impressed with Mulcair and his background.

Everyone has to remember that the NDP leader is someone who has to represent the party and its values across the whole country, but if she or he is succesful in doing so, there will be many opportunities for others to have a huge impact within government. Just as an example, Libby Davis would obviously be a Cabinet Minister and have great influence in her own portfolio as well as around the Cabinet table. Consequently I am more concerned about who can best do the job of representing the NDP and continuing to build the party - and maybe win the next election. I suppose what I am saying is that I would rather have a left wing Cabinet Minister and an MOR NDP PM then a left wing leader of a (once again) third party. Not that I would identify Mulcair as on the 'right' of the NDP necessarily. He did resign from a Cabinet position over a a matter of principle and that is no small matter.  

It's Jack's success that raised the bar, so that 2003 French isn't good enough for our leader in 2011. I think that should be obvious.

That's exactly what a good party leader ought to do - elevate the standard for his or her successor.

The new NDP leader has to be able to communicate effectively in both languages right away. I don't see how to get around this given the composition of caucus. It would be embarrassing to have a leader that isn't at least the equal of Stephen Harper in French.

exactly.  59 quebec mps, and government within reach with only another 30-35.  it's all completely different, a new universe, like you say.

The affiliate provisions of the NDP constitution allow any group which supports the party's principles and agrees to abide by the party's constitution to affiliate to the party. Not all affiliates are Labour organizations, nor has that ever been the case.

Can you name an affiliate that isn't a Labour organization?

That's a very good point.  Our youngest child, who has epilepsy, is in a French Immersion P.S., and because of the cognitive and retention issues associated with her form of epilepsy, she has to work much harder at the language than most of her peers. That's precisely why I qualified what I said about learning a 2nd language fairly quickly under the right circumstances.

Yes, age and innate ability are also factors, but teaching another language in a mainstream public school setting and teaching a language as a 2nd language is different.  Several years ago I co-taught an English Immersion course to a 50-something Quebec francophone business executive.  I did not focus on written language, because it does take longer for most people to learn to write in a language than it does to speak it and understand it when it is spoken. Reading the acquired language is also relatively easy as compared to writing in it.

It also depends upon your starting point - if your current knowledge of the language is rated beginner, low-intermediate, high-intermediate or advanced, your progress will be significantly different.  For example, my French is low-intermediate.  It would take a few months for me to move to high-intermediate (the base level of fluency for one to be considered bilingual).  Given my age and ability, I would probably never move on to Advanced French (perfectly fluent) unless I were actually living and working in French the vast majority of the time, but I would be able to express myself in French and understand it in fairly nuanced ways.

I would rather have a leader who shared my values, and additionally could demonstrate advancing ability in bilingualism, than a leader who spoke perfectly fluent French and did not share my values.

Language immersion is the only real answer;

I have good scholarly but not fluent use of a couple of languages, but have never lived in the countries concerned, hence a stagnation at "book" level;

for French, by contrast, I lived with a Quebec City family and really really struggled -- first exchange summer I "failed", I like to recall -- but then came the "click" into fluency....

that only comes with immersion, unless you are truly gifted

 As for a national party leader, yes, it is very very important; after all, you have to communicate with your constituents.

I remember a hilarious routine that former PQ minister Gerald Godin did about Diefenbaker speaking to a crowd of paperworkers in Trois Rivieres... about his sweeping dreams, grand proposals -- "but no one understood a godamned word he was saying"

By comparison, other potential leadership candidates don't stack up. Olivia Chow doesn't have the force of personality and doesn't speak good French. Given Quebec's importance, anyone not highly proficient in the language should not even apply for leadership consideration. Party president Brian Topp is bilingual and is shrewd, but has no active political experience, no Commons seat and is charisma-challenged. Paul Dewar is highly intelligent, a politician of integrity, but lacks brass and would be vulnerable to Mr. Harper in the same way as a Stéphane Dion.

Wow.  Only three other potential leadership candidates?  One of whom is not running, and another who has never run before.  Martin could not come up with any other "potential leadership candidates"? 

As usual, the Globe is knee-deep trying to game the result: Topp is a front runner but serious contenders like Peter Julian and Peggy Nash et al do not warrant a mention. 

"As usual, the Globe is knee-deep trying to game the result: Topp is a front runner but serious contenders like Peter Julian and Peggy Nash et al do not warrant a mention."

Exactly.  The establishment media has made their choice.  Woebegone to those who do not follow their command.

Other ridings to target: Edmonton Mill Woods Beaumont, Edmonton Leduc, Calgary Centre, Calgary North-East, Calgary East, Yellowhead

It's nice to see our riding of Edmonton-Leduc in a list of hopefuls, as well as Nadine Bailey's Mill Woods Beaumont and Mark Wells' Yellowhead.

We'll keep trying!

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/ndp-contender...

Now Brian Topp wants a longer leadership contest too.

And it would also help to showcase many more members of the NDP Caucus to Canadians, they would get to know them and have a sense of how an NDP Cabinet would look.

What's not to love?

Stockwell Day just gave a strong endorsement to Mulcair on P&P.

Um, it's an Op Ed, not a campaign platform.

Layton letter not intended to block Mulcair: Chow

Read more: http://www.canada.com/Layton+letter+intended+block+Mulcair+Chow/5360779/story.html#ixzz1XE1BJePT

Incidentally, what did Day say?

This is correct.  French can be learned, but not by an NDP leader with the majority of its causcus from Québec.

Which, in a sense is too bad, because as someone else posted, Charlie Angus would have been one hell of a candidate.  Word was he was considering running for the provincial leadership but wasn't willing to give up the national scope of arts issues or trample on his buddy Bisson's bid.

Thanks. I'd forgotten about Woodsworth-Irvine. I made the point in another thread that the only thing preventing some non-labour organizations from becoming affiliates is is a real (charitable status perhaps) or perceived need to remain non-partisan. Similarly some labour unions.

So because I find Libby somewhat indecisive I'm the misogynist (while recommending another women for leadership),

but what it's ok for Mulcair to call Yves Duhaime a Péquiste slut?

This is foolishness. I thought it was widely recognized that Mulclair was to the right of the party, hence him and Libby as co-deputy leaders to appease both ends of the spectrum.

He vehemently defends Israeli apartheid and has attacked Libby over it. He server in Jean Charest's cabinet for christ sakes. Sure he got the boot, and some say it's over the fact he was too green for them, but it's not so simple as that. He was a minister in the government that really brought neo-liberalism to Quebec. Granted the PQ were going down that road before 03, but Charest's government was a whole new push.

You know who else was a Québec Liberal and went to McGill around the same time as Mulcair: Jack Layton.

What's worse, Jack Layton's father was a Mulroneyite, he comes from a family of Duplessistes, and he is from the plutocratic anglo suburbs of Montréal where he grew up at an anglo-only yacht club. We must stop this monster from becoming leader of the NDP...oh wait.

Not to stifle people's airings of legitimate concerns, but let's give every potential candidate a listen, they deserve an opportunity to speak for themselves.

Mulcair grew up in a humble family, he worked with many Federal NDPers in provincial Liberal roles in the National Assembly. He is a fan of Claude Ryan and a descendent of Honoré Mercier. Most of Québec believes he quit cabinet (was Environment Minister) over a shady deal to privatise and commercially exploit a provincial park. He toughed it out as an anglophone in the almost francophone-only Québec public service, and this as a person with a clear-as-day anglo accent. He has successfully put forward many nationalist proposals to defend the French language and he has fought fiercely against separation. He was born in Ontario to bicultural family.

Libby Davies is the most famous leftist in the NDP caucus. She is widely respected. She is a champion of unpopular but important causes and has a big heart, just like Jack Layton. If she had taken the time to learn French, she would be a leading contender, no doubt. Just look at how popular Svend Robinson was in Québec. Svend and Libby have/had very similar views, but Svend was bilingual and could take his message on the road in a way Libby can't.

Thanks to Sara Mayo for posting all those great videos. Here is one I found of Peggy Nash in case babblers are interested.

Up to now, Topp has never had a position where being "charismatic" was part of the job description - so we can't really judge him. I'm eager to see how he presents as a candidate and I hope to be pleasantly surprised by his "retail" political skills that he had never been called upon to show in the past.

I like Peter Julian and I hope he runs, I think he has many of the right qualities but unfortunately I don't think charisma is one of them.  That won't stop me from giving him serious consideration though.

He's been working the media hard these last two days and I haven't been impressed by what I've seen. One can also read his columns in the GlobeandMail.com and his book on the coalition to start raising questions about his political judgment. Topp doesn't seem to have gotten the memo yet that serving in the backrooms and as a media spinmeister does not equal serving as a member of Parliament accountable to a constituency and media that will pour over your every move. He should serve as an MP first before trying to inherit the top job.

Someone please refresh my memory - who came second when Layton first became NDP leader?

Jack was the published author of a policy book not a spin cycle comic book.  He also had good experience at the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.  I was very impressed with that part of his resume because it showed the respect of other local politicians and that he could work with very divergent people in a common cause.  Parliamentary experience is not a pre-requisite for being leader but demonstrated leadership in some area of ones life is required.

Oh, and closing for length.