NDP leadership race 2

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Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I think when you recruit a star you want them in ridings that have above average chances of success.

Thank you for highlighting the anti-democratic way our current system operates. The NDP constitutionally gives the right to nominate candidates to the members in the riding. Who in this sentence is the "you",  it certainly is not the the riding association. If the NDP wants to continue being a top down driven party it is doomed. Having puppet masters at the centre who control the party and decide not only who is a "star" but also where they should run is not my idea of a democratic party. IMO the central control during the campaign was part of the major failure. The candidates were all very scripted and thus despite the activist history of many candidates they didn't even sound passionate since they were busy making sure they stayed on message.

The party is also a collective.

A candidate on her/his own would prefer to stand in a better chance riding. I think it is the centralized parties that drove these head-to-head winner-take-all star matches not the reverse. They recruited the candidates to run like this. A more natural grass-roots derived candidates slate would be more likely to have strong candidates pick winnable ridings where they had choices (live in neighbouring ridings etc.) and their star power would given them a better chance to get the riding they want.

A more democratic -- bottom-up approach would help fix this. It is not the cause of the problem.

Sean in Ottawa

Mighty Middle wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Ok.  But you said:

Quote:
A lot of new blood was also shed in the war between the NDP and the Liberals as promising candidates for one party defeated equally promising ones for another.

I was quoting Chantal hebert

Mr. Magoo wrote:

And then said:

Quote:
But then several low-profile Liberals took out big NDP stars

So was it star vs. star, or star vs. low-profile benchwarmer?

And what should the NDP have said?  "Nobody can defeat Dzerowicz!!!  Nominate Gordie from the mailroom, and get Cash on a plane to Elmwood-Transcona!"

Which is why I said I could be wrong. I don't do know what she (Chantal Hebert) was referring to.

star vs. star, or star vs. low-profile benchwarmer?

Because she could have talked about both examples when she said

"The NDP has just sacrificed its most talented slate of candidates ever to a self-destructive battle against the Liberals."

I think the parties went out and recruited candidates on purpose to go up against the other party's stars. The result is the drained the pool for a winner-take-all approach. Had they left it to local nominations there likely would have been a greater chance that stars in more than one party would have come through.

So the parties engineered this high-risk approach and imposed it on their riding associations in a number of ways (even if they had nomination meetings -- they pushed candidates to challenge for the nomination in those ridings). The party also used their spending to double down in those races. A more dynamic grass roots approach is less liekly to produce such high stakes races than what the national office has engineered.

Both the Liberals and the NDP did this and the Liberals won the gamble.

Aristotleded24

Geoff wrote:
It's the members who need to know if there is a strategy behind the silence. I doubt that there is. It may well be that the leadership is scratching its collective head. I don't know. Truly, I'm grasping at straws.

I think the leadership simply doesn't understand what is going on. Remember how giddy those at NDP HQ were at the results coming in even though the party lost a number of seats?

The real problem is that the NDP has no viable road map for success. Notley's victory in Alberta caught everyone off guard, and there was not enough time to look into that and figure out what aspects of that victory were due to local circumstances and which ones could be replicated federally. For the longest time, the federal party thought the way to achieve power was to emulate the successful provincial branches in Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, and Manitoba, sorry I mean the successful branches in Nova Scotia and Manitoba, sorry, I mean the successful branch in Manitoba...oh. There were several reasons why this approach could not be replicated federally. The main one is that the NDP had established themselves as the main contenders in these jurisdictions, and when you are a main competitor you have more freedom to play it safe than if you are on the outside.

This is a structural problem that goes beyond the federal party. Since 2010, excluding the Orange Crush, the come-from-behind victory in Manitoba in 2011, and Notley's breakthrough last year, pretty much every election in that time has had the NDP finish well below what was initially expected. Furthermore, in 2 of those provinces, the NDP has less public support and permanent presence than the Greens. That tells me that the NDP has the platform and ideas that can win, but something is wrong at the top where that communication is bungled. I think the main thing is that the party doesn't trust its members to be more than ATMs. We have to let the members have a greater role and an understanding that different communities have different needs. True, you need some co-ordination to avoid NDP candidates in BC and Alberta contradicting what their Ontario and Quebec candidates are saying, but as krop said, imposing a message from Central Campaign to be used nationwide is not the answer

Debater

Jack Layton would have trouble recognizing current incarnation of party

Sat., Aug. 20, 2016

Chantal Hébert

Even an optimist such as Jack Layton would be hard-pressed to find a silver lining to the funk that has seized the NDP in the 10 months since the federal election.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/20/jack-layton-would-have-tr...

Sean in Ottawa

Debater wrote:

Jack Layton would have trouble recognizing current incarnation of party

Sat., Aug. 20, 2016

Chantal Hébert

Even an optimist such as Jack Layton would be hard-pressed to find a silver lining to the funk that has seized the NDP in the 10 months since the federal election.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2016/08/20/jack-layton-would-have-tr...

I find nothing in this article to argue with.

It is fair and the NDP ought never to be a blank slate as she puts it.

We could argue that these are bad communications but that is part of the problem. The NDP ought to have some principles and positions that are applicable to the circumstances. From there it can ask a survey but there ought to be a basis.

The party is lost becuas it dumped the leader not becuase he was simply incompetent but because he was going in the wrong direction. The party needs a leadership with a mandate. Right now it does not have one.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The real problem is that the NDP has no viable road map for success.

This is a somewhat deterministic model that assumes there's a roadmap to success.  But let's go with it.

If another party has such a roadmap, the best that the NDP and other parties can do is to copy it. There cannot be multiple roadmaps to success, or else we'd see electoral "ties", which we never have at a federal level.

mark_alfred

Hébert wrote:
It would be an exaggeration to call it a householder for it gave no sense of the NDP’s plans for the next sitting of Parliament. Instead it was a straw poll designed to produce a list of priorities for the party to tackle. One can only wonder what Layton would make of the NDP turning itself into a blank slate.

Quote:

It is fair and the NDP ought never to be a blank slate as she puts it.

But this is exactly what the 'swing left NDP momemtum grassroots' delegates wanted, isn't it?  No more top-down control from party central, but rather a grassroots movement from the membership on up.  So now it makes sense to canvass the membership, since this is what the delegates in their wisdom indicated they wanted, doesn't it?

Sean in Ottawa

mark_alfred wrote:

Hébert wrote:
It would be an exaggeration to call it a householder for it gave no sense of the NDP’s plans for the next sitting of Parliament. Instead it was a straw poll designed to produce a list of priorities for the party to tackle. One can only wonder what Layton would make of the NDP turning itself into a blank slate.

Quote:

It is fair and the NDP ought never to be a blank slate as she puts it.

But this is exactly what the 'swing left NDP momemtum grassroots' delegates wanted, isn't it?  No more top-down control from party central, but rather a grassroots movement from the membership on up.  So now it makes sense to canvass the membership, since this is what the delegates in their wisdom indicated they wanted, doesn't it?

The membership yes-- but this was the public.

I think there ought to be a series of membership meetings in the ridings. But this is not what we are talking about.

swallow swallow's picture

Most of what Hebert says is sensible enough, as usual. But worth noting the considerable content in Laverdiere's Spring 2016 householderr - [url=http://helenelaverdiere.ndp.ca/sites/default/files/multisite/173548/fiel...'s the translated version[/url]. 

mark_alfred

Quote:

Most of what Hebert says is sensible enough, as usual. But worth noting the considerable content in Laverdiere's Spring 2016 householderr - [url=http://helenelaverdiere.ndp.ca/sites/default/files/multisite/173548/fiel...'s the translated version[/url]. 

There's nothing to criticize regarding that householder.  Hébert is outta her mind.

jjuares

mark_alfred wrote:

Quote:

Most of what Hebert says is sensible enough, as usual. But worth noting the considerable content in Laverdiere's Spring 2016 householderr - [url=http://helenelaverdiere.ndp.ca/sites/default/files/multisite/173548/fiel...'s the translated version[/url]. 

There's nothing to criticize regarding that householder.  Hébert is outta her mind.


I agree. This is pretty standard stuff. Hebert seems to be reaching.

swallow swallow's picture

I believe Hebert is referring to a Summer 2016 mailing, not the Spring 2016 householder I linked, and lamenting that it is not a full householder. But she's definitely reaching if she thinks her MP isn't hyper-active and pro-active on a range of issues. The householder anacedote is Margeret Wente type stuff, well below Chantal Hebert's usual standards.

mark_alfred

Yeah.  To characterize the one summer survey mailing as typical of all NDP mailings is misleading and obviously false, as the example of the spring mailing (when the House was in session) shows.  MPs from all parties sometimes send news or information mailings and at other times send simple surveys.  Nothing unusual.  Hébert is just being a jackass.

mark_alfred

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/sleepover/episode-nine-jagmeet-s-disarming-style...

Potential leadership candidate Jagmeet Singh was on Sook-Yin Lee's sleepover show.

ETR (edited to remove some snark)

ctrl190

I think Charlie Angus would be an incredible candidate. He's a sharp debater in QP and has gained a strong profile with his work advocating for the First Nations in Northern Ontario. He has urban roots, an activist background, and over a decade of parliamentary experience. 

Debater
R.E.Wood

I'm very disappointed Boulerice won't be running - he would have been a major contender.

But it's still early days and there will eventually be lots of candidates. Some will start making announcements very soon to generate as much fundraising as they can this year. 

Has anyone speculated about Jenny Kwan running? First term MP, but her provincial experience is extensive, she's tri-lingual, and seems to be a strong communicator. Her travel expense scandal in BC was resolved and acknowledged as not being her fault, so I don't think anyone but the most ardent right-wingers would hold that against her. Thoughts?

Geoff

Boulerice took one look in the mirror, saw the beard and decided, "I don't have a chance". Wink (Okay, maybe not. In fact, I agree that it is too bad he's decided not to run.)

Given that Boulerice is our of the race, Charlie Angus is looking like one of the most serious potential contenders for the job. I think he would be an excellent leader who might appeal to social activists across the country, a consituency that the party has failed to impress, to date.

My understanding is that his French is still a 'work in progress', but if he were to choose Romeo Saganash as Deputy Leader, he could address that criticism and buttress his already substantial credibilty as an advocate for indigenous issues. (I believe this strategy has come up on other Babble threads.)

Also, I have read, maybe on Rabble, that Niki Ashton is holding meetings in different regions of the country to talk policy, so perhaps there is a leadership bid in the making. Whatever the case, I sure hope some of these folks will at least start musing about running before Canadians forget the NDP exists.

 

cco

R.E.Wood wrote:

Has anyone speculated about Jenny Kwan running? First term MP, but her provincial experience is extensive, she's tri-lingual, and seems to be a strong communicator. Her travel expense scandal in BC was resolved and acknowledged as not being her fault, so I don't think anyone but the most ardent right-wingers would hold that against her. Thoughts?

Disclaimer first: I've never been to BC, so all my information on BC politics is secondhand. That said, last time I brought Kwan up to an NDPer from BC, I was told there's a lot of residual bad blood from her trying to oust Carole James back in 2010. Not that that would necessarily carry over to the federal level, but it's something to consider, since the on-the-ground militants out there seem to be less than keen on her. If she's burned her bridges with the provincial party, that might make it tougher for her to organize a leadership run.

mark_alfred

The Facebook page Draft Jagmeet Singh for NDP Leader has over a 1000 likes.

mark_alfred

Erin Weir writes that the Next NDP Leader Needs Strong Corporate Tax Plan

Quote:
Ahead of next week’s federal NDP caucus retreat, Regina–Lewvan MP Erin Weir is asking prospective leadership candidates to commit to restoring a federal corporate tax rate of at least 19.5% and preventing high-income professionals from avoiding personal tax through incorporation.

mark_alfred

Sid Ryan comments on some policy considerations he hopes people will undertake in the NDP during the next leadership race.  https://www.facebook.com/sid.ryan.94/videos/10157357379095573/

R.E.Wood

mark_alfred wrote:

Erin Weir writes that the Next NDP Leader Needs Strong Corporate Tax Plan

Erin Weir is making his statement fairly boldly, and perhaps he's gearing up for a leadership bid of his own? He'll need to branch out to a wider set of issues, but starting with corporate taxation is a good beginning.

“It’s widely recognized that doubling-down on a pledge to immediately balance the budget was a mistake in the last election campaign,” observed Weir. “This pledge was untenable because two points of corporate tax were clearly insufficient to fund our platform’s progressive expenditure proposals.”

“The next NDP leader must be confident about going further to reverse corporate tax cuts,” said Weir. “Our next election campaign should highlight, rather than downplay, corporate taxes as an issue that sets New Democrats apart from Liberals and Conservatives.”

Stockholm

Jenny Kwan speaks no French whatsoever...eject

R.E.Wood

Stockholm wrote:
Jenny Kwan speaks no French whatsoever...eject

Well, according to the internet, she does speak English, French and Cantonese:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Kwan

 

swallow swallow's picture

Ability in French is not mentioned on Kwan's own web page, which may be more authoritative than whatever random person typed the Wikipedia entry. They may have taken it from her constituency page listing which states: "Service is available in English,French, Cantonese, and Mandarin." 

mark_alfred

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

What does the grasshopper mean?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

I think it's supposed to be a cricket.

Rev Pesky

I think you can forget Jenny Kwan. There are some things you can get away with locally, like living in a $2 million dollar house in Kitsilano while representing a riding in the poorest part of town, but the national press would make mincemeat of her in short order.

What she has been able to do is to become the representative for Vancouver-Mount Pleasant provincially, then Vancouver East federally. Both are NDP strongholds (Vancouver-Mount Pleasant area is a subset of Vancouver East). You don't have to campaign to win either of these ridings. The trick is to win the NDP nomination.

In the last 26 federal elections in Vancouver East, 24 were won by, first the CCF, then by the NDP. Two times Liberals were elected to single terms. PR aficionados would love this riding as often the NDP got more votes than all the other parties combined. Vancouver-Mount Pleasant is a newer riding, but it has always been NDP, and most often the NDP wins with +60% of the vote.

In addition to that, despite going to the media with her complaints about Carol James' leadership of the provincial party, Kwan never expressed any interest in running for the leadership herself. I suspect that is true also of the federal leadership. After all, why make life diffcult when you can sit back and watch the parade from the safest NDP seat in the country.

mark_alfred

Yeah, initially I figured it was a cricket.  But maybe it's some obscure reference to this guy:

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Master Po??

(JK)

Quote:
I think it's supposed to be a cricket.

I think crickets are black, not green.

But without a banana for scale, I suppose it could also be a locust.  Discuss.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I think it's supposed to be a cricket.

I think crickets are black, not green.

So do I, but nonetheless in my opinion the intent of the creator of this graphic was to portray (very poorly as it turns out) a cricket.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Well, nothing else really makes better sense.

But where the hell did this person grow up?  Evidently not anwhere where there are crickets and grasshoppers at the same time.

CanadaApple

Too bad Boulerice won't be running. I'd like to be more optimistic about the future of the left in Canada but it's hard to be when no one seems to want to be leader of the NDP. I guess it's still early days though. 

mark_alfred

Quote:

Too bad Boulerice won't be running. I'd like to be more optimistic about the future of the left in Canada but it's hard to be when no one seems to want to be leader of the NDP. I guess it's still early days though. 

Boulerice, Lesley, DiNovo, Mulcair, Lewis, and Cullen have ruled themselves out.  Caron, Singh, Julien, Ashton, Rebecca Blaikie, and maybe Mike Layton (if he's been able to learn sufficient French) may consider it. 

swallow swallow's picture

How about that grasshopper? She seems to have charisma. Plus she won't waste time gathering food for winter like those fucking ants. 

Sean in Ottawa

swallow wrote:

How about that grasshopper? She seems to have charisma. Plus she won't waste time gathering food for winter like those fucking ants. 

The grasshopper might be better than Mulcair you mean?

Jonas

OK, everyone needs to take a deep breath. The leadership race is over a year away and it was very unlikely that anyone was going to announce over the summer.  Any serious contender is going to take their time, make sure they have their ducks in a row and announce when they are absolutely ready. 

Sean in Ottawa

Jonas wrote:

OK, everyone needs to take a deep breath. The leadership race is over a year away and it was very unlikely that anyone was going to announce over the summer.  Any serious contender is going to take their time, make sure they have their ducks in a row and announce when they are absolutely ready. 

There is another reality I have been trying to explain -- re the party's missing generation. The implications of this are that the party has to look outside of caucus. Candidates outside of caucus will want to leave some time before going in to be sure that in-cuacus candidates do not emerge. The lack of candidates is exactly what is needed for people outside to think they have a chance and take a shot. I think this might be exactly what the party needs. The biggest disaster would be a few so-so canddiates from caucus to jump in and leave better candidates from outsdie the impression the field is closed. This is wide open and the party will have a leader. It may well have a leader from a completely different outside source and a real opportunity to discuss directions and renewal.

Worry if you must but this might be exactly what the party needs to make a real break from the past to something new. We might even have a leadership contest decided no on personality but contrasting visions. How refreshing.

mark_alfred

Quote:

I suppose it could also be a locust.  Discuss.

Advocating a plan to keep people well fed perhaps.  An appropriate and affordable universal meal plan.

Leviticus wrote:

Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;

Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

mark_alfred

Quote:

How about that grasshopper? She seems to have charisma. Plus she won't waste time gathering food for winter like those fucking ants. 

She's a perfect symbol for Leap.  It's what grasshoppers do.

R.E.Wood

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

There is another reality I have been trying to explain -- re the party's missing generation. The implications of this are that the party has to look outside of caucus. Candidates outside of caucus will want to leave some time before going in to be sure that in-cuacus candidates do not emerge. The lack of candidates is exactly what is needed for people outside to think they have a chance and take a shot. I think this might be exactly what the party needs. The biggest disaster would be a few so-so canddiates from caucus to jump in and leave better candidates from outsdie the impression the field is closed. This is wide open and the party will have a leader. It may well have a leader from a completely different outside source and a real opportunity to discuss directions and renewal.

Worry if you must but this might be exactly what the party needs to make a real break from the past to something new. We might even have a leadership contest decided no on personality but contrasting visions. How refreshing.

Absolutely, Sean - it will be very exciting if some currently-unexpected candidates come forward from outside of federal caucus, with bold visions for the party and Canada's future. 

And it is still early days, and there will soon be no shortage of candidates in the running.

mark_alfred

Quote:

Erin Weir writes that the Next NDP Leader Needs Strong Corporate Tax Plan

Erin Weir is making his statement fairly boldly, and perhaps he's gearing up for a leadership bid of his own? He'll need to branch out to a wider set of issues, but starting with corporate taxation is a good beginning.

I quite like Weir, but I don't think his French is good enough, and he himself describes his personality as a bit wonkish and wooden (IE, he doesn't have a huge amount of charisma).  I think he's just hoping to set the stage for a more progressive vision than last time.  Mind you, he may jump into the race.  Often times when prospects are grim, the first tier candidates don't bother, leaving the door open to others.  Which is fine by me.  As I said, I like Weir.

bekayne

swallow wrote:

How about that grasshopper? She seems to have charisma. Plus she won't waste time gathering food for winter like those fucking ants. 

Does it have $30,000?

swallow swallow's picture

mark_alfred wrote:

She's a perfect symbol for Leap.  It's what grasshoppers do.

OH MY GOD YOU'RE RIGHT I NOW SEE THE CARTOONIST'S INTENT.  

bekayne wrote:

swallow wrote:

How about that grasshopper? She seems to have charisma. Plus she won't waste time gathering food for winter like those fucking ants. 

Does it have $30,000?

The ants have gathered all the money, and they are NOT sharing. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The grasshopper might be better than Mulcair you mean?

Well, the ant would surely advocate a balanced budget, and the grasshopper would surely say "whatevs, something will pay for it or something" and keep dancing around with his lovely wife and adorable children.

And we saw how horribly it all played out for the ant.

sherpa-finn

I think this is positive and exciting news. Robert Fox has a long history in progressive social movements and organized labour. More of a Corbyn / Sanders sort of guy, IMHO.  And this decision implies that the National Execustive is doing a little "out of box" thinking.

NDP RECRUITS FORMER HEAD OF OXFAM FOR TOP JOB

OTTAWA –The New Democratic Party has selected former Oxfam Canada Executive Director, Robert Fox, as its new National Director. Fox will begin his work today at the Party’s national headquarters in Ottawa....

http://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-recruits-former-head-oxfam-top-job

 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I read that as well and wondered with that resume why he wasn't running for leader. 

Pondering

sherpa-finn wrote:

I think this is positive and exciting news. Robert Fox has a long history in progressive social movements and organized labour. More of a Corbyn / Sanders sort of guy, IMHO.  And this decision implies that the National Execustive is doing a little "out of box" thinking.

NDP RECRUITS FORMER HEAD OF OXFAM FOR TOP JOB

OTTAWA –The New Democratic Party has selected former Oxfam Canada Executive Director, Robert Fox, as its new National Director. Fox will begin his work today at the Party’s national headquarters in Ottawa....

http://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-recruits-former-head-oxfam-top-job

Great news.

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