NDP leadership race 3

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lagatta4

The visual of Liz doing that is the photo-op equivalent of an earworm... Would she still be carrying an empty handbag?

And isn't Kevin O'Leary viciously anti-labour?

Mighty Middle

Meanwhile turning the page...

NDP leadership hopeful Pat Stogran is upset that his appearance on Question Period this morning got axed. It was a pre-taped segment and was interviewed a few days ago. Watching this AM he was upset that the program found no room for him. Not even an explanation as to why he was dropped from the show. He writes on Facebook

Quote:
I guess I didn't make it onto Question Period. That is encouraging though, because CTV has shown their hand. They are either worried about or underestimating me, but either way they have wasted my time. Game on, this is why I stepped into the arena. Where is The Tyee, rabble.ca, and the other independents?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

MM

Frankly since I know nothing about Jagmeet Singh I have no opinion on how he conducts himself.

So yes lets go back to discussing who should lead the NDP so we can get rid of our arrogant asshole of a PM and his disgusting use of appearance over substance.

mark_alfred

Re: post # 336

Agreed.

mark_alfred

Regarding the debate, I thought Guy's closing statement was good.  Good to see that he's got a sense of humour.

mark_alfred

I think the NDP are determined not to sow division within the membership.  Toward the end of the last debate, I almost expected them to hold hands and begin singing Kumbaya together.  Pretty well anything that's even remotely divisive, like "Mulcair" (heck, no one even mentioned his name), was avoided.  Which is fine.  Best to strive for unity, I figure.

Mighty Middle

Quote:
Regarding the debate, I though Guy's closing statement was good.  Good to see that he's got a sense of humour.

Except the more you attack Trudeau outside of policy, the higher his numbers go up as explained by Josh Wingrove of Bloomberg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJO7u25OOSc

But by all means if you guys are convinced this is a winning strategy, keep at it. It sure worked well in 2015.

mark_alfred

I liked this statement too on how the NDP are different from the Libs.

SeekingAPolitic...

Does anyone know when the next debate is?  I want to submit a question to panel maybe they will ask it. 

Yemen is a verge of a famine and canada is selling weapons to the suadis who are bombing the country to the stone ago.

I think it would be a good question if Canada will continue to sell weapons to the saudis under a NDP goverment.

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/03/18/facing-famine-20-million-pe...

Yet

https://news.vice.com/story/canada-admits-the-weapons-it-sells-to-saudi-...

Response from Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/immigration-minister-ahmed-hussen-...

This is a pretty crazy policy when you think about.  Supporting a war in yemen but lets throw a few pennies at the human carnage caused by the war. 

SeekingAPolitic...

Maybe I could contact the campaigns to reply to the queastion and see if they would allow the reponse to be posted on rabble. 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

The NDP has a page up for just this purpose. You can submit a question there.

scott16

Apparently Pat Stogran announced his candidacy for the leadership today.

3h3 hours ago

March 19 2017 Colonel (Retd) announces run for leadership.

mark_alfred

Is that the former veterans ombudsman?

scott16

Yes it is. Am I the only one who has some worries about him in the leadership election?

BTW here is his Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/pat.stogran

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Scott16 wrote:
Apparently Pat Stogran announced his candidacy for the leadership today.

A Google news search on Pat Stogran did not turn up any articles regarding a leadership announcement. The most recent article it turned up was the March 14th CBC article that said he's considering running for the leadership, and which was posted in this thread.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Lagatta4:

The visual of Liz doing that is the photo-op equivalent of an earworm... Would she still be carrying an empty handbag?

No...she'd have a fifth of Laphroaig in the bag, and take a pull on it after every paragraph in the speech.  No...even better...she'd wear a beer crown and drain a six-pack of Guinness, with Phillip picking up all the empties.

mark_alfred

Re: post #365

Thanks for the info scott16.  I was completely unfamiliar with him until I saw the CBC article about him considering entering the race.  From that, he seemed like an interesting guy.  However, the Facebook link you provided is more colourful than I expected.

CanadaApple

From what I can tell, Stogran hasn't made an official announcement yet just some posts on Facebook saying he is interested. It doesn't look like he's offically registered with Elections Canada at this point. 

Caissa

I just read the last 56 posts looking for an update on discussions on the NDP leadership race. I saw little. Good thing I don't spend much time around here since the upgrade. I am supporting Guy Caron. I like the idea of guaranteed annual incomes.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Cheri DiNovo: Canada, Not Just the NDP, Needs a Socialist Alternative
https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2017/03/20/Canadian-Socialist-Alternative/?ut...

Quote:
Tommy Douglas was crystal clear. You can’t have democracy and justice if you don’t have socialism. Unfettered capitalism will literally be the death of us all. Roosevelt knew that back in the 1930s. Millions of Canadians understand that medicare, public education, employment insurance, CPP are all programs socialists fought for and won. Many more need childcare, a living wage, a union job, stable housing. Other countries provide all of these. In every country that does, social programs are now under threat from a growing right wing. Don’t think Trump, O’Leary or Leitch can’t happen here. If the only choice is Bay Street and the same old, same old broken promises — they just might happen here.

So, yes, we do need a true third party, a democratic socialist party that provides a clear and distinct alternative to multinational corporate rule or the rampant intolerance of right-wing populism.

Looks like, in this leadership race, we just might get one. Canada should be pleased.

Mighty Middle

Pat Strogen has officially anounced his bid for the NDP Leadership on Power Play today. He says the NDP needs a rebranding saying

"NDP platform is unrealistic and hugely expensive and everyone knows that. But at least it is looking after the people"

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Pat Stogran's interview on CTV's Power Play
http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1082401

Pat comes across as a nice guy, but I'm unlikely to support his candidacy because he's a centrist and I'm a socialist.

I have no idea what effect his candidacy will have on the leadership race as a whole, 'nor how much support he might be abke to attract.

Does anyone know where Pat Stogran lives?

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Ashton looks left in NDP leadership bid
http://www.thereminder.ca/news/local-news/ashton-looks-left-in-ndp-leade...

Quote:

Ashton, who entered the leadership race last week, vows to pull the NDP to the left with perhaps one of the most progressive platforms ever presented by an aspiring head of a major Canadian political party.

Her promises tread across familiar NDP territory with some notable turns further to the left. Among them: free post-secondary tuition, better trade deals and a strong stance on oil pipelines and the need to transition to a carbon-free economy.

Ashton also favours further regulation and more government involvement in the economy.

“I think it’s time in this country that we start saying, ‘You privatize it, we nationalize it. You deregulate it, we regulate it. You
bring in unfair trade deals, we bring in fair trade deals,’” she said.

Ashton lashed out at rich and powerful elites she says are holding ordinary Canadians back and at the politics of division and hate, proclaiming solidarity with indigenous people, the LGBTQ community and unions, among other groups.

In her view, Canada’s status quo generates inequality not by accident, but by design.

“We all need to recognize, the system isn’t broken. It was built this way,” Ashton said.

“We must send a message that there is a better way.”

Rev Pesky

I would think Ashton more of less resigned from the leadership race when she collapsed in the face of a ridiculous accusation of cultural appropriation. I can't imagine how anyone could see her as leadership material after that.

SeekingAPolitic...

This is red meat to me.  I like the sound of this.  Already signed up to volunteer.  My personal area of interest is the economy so this talk of nationaliziton is sweet music.  Plus throw in the idea of the wealthly paying more is something I would like to see.

SeekingAPolitic...

You speak the truth Rev, she is the most leftist candiate out there so I am willing to overlook some sins.  From standing up to Mulcair to appropriation matter was a let down.  But is it way to early right off  someone, hell I still think julian being a possibly even if he the was a Mulcair loyalist.  I decided to that looking for the perfect candidate is case seeking fools gold, I like bernie alot but I recongine he has flaws.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Ashton, who entered the leadership race last week, vows to pull the NDP to the left

Except she's not permitted to say that any more.  Haven't you heard?

The acceptable and non-culturally-appropriating term is now "toward the progressivity".  She can pull the NDP toward the progressivity.

josh

Trivial BS.  Won't have an effect on whether she wins or loses.  

I do like her economic message.  But not sure whether she will be the right one to carry it.

Mighty Middle

Quote:
to the left Except she's not permitted to say that any more.  Haven't you heard?

Then she should use an Alexa McDonough quote

"It is downright dangerous to fly without a left wing"

 

scott16

His website says he lives in Ottawa, Left Turn.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

scott16 wrote:
His website says he lives in Ottawa, Left Turn.

Which means that he and Charlie Angus will split the vote of Ontarians who want to vote for an Ontarian candidate (aka the Ontario regional vote).

Rev Pesky

From Josh:

Trivial BS.  Won't have an effect on whether she wins or loses.  

I do like her economic message.  But not sure whether she will be the right one to carry it.

Hardly trivial. What would one assume she would do in the face of criticism from the Israeli lobby? Would her reaction be the same?

I will accept the 'to the left' thing was probably not a good campaign strategy. Much better to outline policies that would be 'to the left' than just say 'to the left'. However, once having used the slogan, then being accused of cultural appropriation, a real leader could have used the event to make a statement about racism, and the real cultural appropriation that happens when major clothing manufacturers, for instance, steal native designs to use on their mass produced apparel.

I agree it may not affect her run at the leadership, but if you think the other political parties haven't taken note of her wimp response, then you really don't know politics.

Perhaps she could change her slogan to

To The Right. Not!

 

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

An interesting statistic: 3 of the 5 candidates who are currently in the race to become the next leader of the federal NDP hail from small town Canada -- Charlie Angus is from Cobalt, Ontario; Guy Caron is from Rimouski, Quebec; and Niki Ashton is from Thompson, Manitoba.

This from a party that the general public often perceives as more urban than rural.

Mighty Middle

We just need a candidate from Atlantic Canada to cover the specturm.

Stockholm

and Stogran may live in Ottawa right now because he was Veterans ombudsman but he grew up in rural Quebec

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

What is your feeling about Stogran, Stock?  I ask because, on paper, he kind of sounds like the person you'd back for the job.

wage zombie

Rev Pesky wrote:

Perhaps she could change her slogan to

To The Right. Not!

There's nothing wrong with saying "To the left!"  The problem was invoking Beyonce.  Even if you don't view it as non-inclusive, it's still cheap.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And MOST the song was about calling out an unfaithful spouse, with the "To The Left" cadence chant meant, I think, to invoke either quickle ending the relationship or actually marching over the guy-it was basically Beyonce's update of "These Boots Are Made For Walking".

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Clowns TO THE LEFT OF ME

Jokers to the right. 

As if using "to the left" in a song could attach that phrase to ones culture or that stating that you like someones music is appropriating it.  The idea is absurd and I have downgraded my esteem for Ashton as a consequence. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMAIsqvTh7g

josh
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Kropotkin1951:

Clowns TO THE LEFT OF ME

Jokers to the right. 

As if using "to the left" in a song could attach that phrase to ones culture or that stating that you like someones music is appropriating it.  The idea is absurd and I have downgraded my esteem for Ashton as a consequence. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMAIsqvTh7g

 

(there was actually a funny moment involving that in the CBC "Trudeau" miniseries.   PET-as played by Colm Feore-and his top advisors were discussing how difficult the 1979 election was going to be, with his party facing tough competition from the PC's AND the NDP.  Trudeau and one of his aides used similar sounding cultural references that happened to be written a century apart:

PET:  "Cannons to the left of me, cannons to the right of me"

Aide: Stuck in the middle with you!

​(Trudeau and the aide both look puzzled for a moment, then)

Trudeau:  Tennyson

Aide: Stealer's Wheel

 

 

 

CanadaApple

Anyone else seen this

A COALITION OF THE INDEPENDENT LEFT

We call for COURAGE because climate change and inequality must be addressed head on, on a short timeline. We call for COURAGE in embracing both a movement strategy and an electoral strategy. But most of all, we call for COURAGE in pursuit of a better world — it’s not too late, but we must start now.

Courage is a democratic space for education, organizing and collective action. We are grounded in the principles of socialism, feminism, decolonization, anti-racism, migrant justice and anti-oppression.

 

Rev Pesky

From wage zombie"

There's nothing wrong with saying "To the left!"  The problem was invoking Beyonce.  Even if you don't view it as non-inclusive, it's still cheap.

Sorry, but I still have no idea how what Ashton did was cultural appropriation. And I'm not sure what you mean by 'invoking' Beyonce. If I 'invoke' Muddy Waters, is that cultural appropriation? I don't see how, and he actually wrote many of the songs he performed.

As far as being cheap, well, I've already commented that instead of saying 'to the left', she would have been better off to present policies that are indeed 'to the left'. That would have saved her a lot of grief.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Was the issue simply that Niki Ashton hadn't obtained permission from Beyonce to use the song, or is it cultural appropriation for a white politician ever to use music performed by black people in her campaign?

Are we going to say that white politicians are obligated to only use music written and performed by white people?  What if that means that leaves them with no music that isn't hopelessly lame?

​And using a historical example, was it cultural appropriation when Audrey McLaughlin used "Talkin 'bout a Revolution" by Tracy Chapman as her leadership campaign song?

What ARE the ground rules on this?

brookmere

What ARE the ground rules on this?

If you mean legal rules, they're pretty well known courtesy US campaign controversies. If a song has a "public performance license", as almost all do, you can play it at a public event provided the owners of the song (performers & songwriters) get royalty payments. As far as quoting lyrics is concerned, I think that's "fair use" which requires no permission or royalty. Beyonce doesn't seem to be the author of the lyrics by the way, but appears to be responsible for some of the arrangement.

If you mean political rules, well they're whatever you want them to be.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Thank you for clarifying the legal situation...but what I was looking for, more precisely, were the moral/ethical/cultural sensitivity rules. 

Also, I was wondering if it was ALWAYS going to cultural appropriation for Ashton to have used this song(or, to be accurate, to have used PART of this song).

Mighty Middle

Ashton exact quote on her FB post was

Quote:
“Like Beyoncé says, to the left. Time for an unapologetic left turn for the #NDP, for social, racial, enviro and economic justice.”

After Niki took down the reference BLM repsonded with thanks by saying

“We hope you’re sincere about fighting for racial justice. If so, we want to see more real engagement with our communities,”

“We want concrete plans to fight anti-Black racism in Canada, not a white MP using a Black artist to self-promote.”

“We offered this feedback, because we took your pledge to build an intersectional movement seriously."

“Being an ally to a community means listening to that community when they tell you you’re getting it wrong. Thanks for listening, Niki Ashton.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/03/17/why-niki-ashtons-use-of-beyo...

quizzical

offs. i tell ya BLM Van is beyond belief.

brookmere

but what I was looking for, more precisely, were the moral/ethical/cultural sensitivity rules.

My own view is that using a product that is offered for sale by its creators within the rules of commercial law isn't appropriation, it's just business. We're not talking about anyone's traditional culture here, but a product that was expressly created for the mass market.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

OK...so, all Ashton did was QUOTE three words from the lyric(without playing the song) and mention Beyonce's name.   When BLM very politely pointed out why this was problematic, Ashton accepted the validity of their critique thanked them for doing so and then removed the quote.  Is this really cultural appropriation...or is it an example of a politician simply being quickly responsive to feedback and correcting the situation? 

Shouldn't we want political leaders who will react in an immediate and constructive way?

​Does the fact that she used the quote and referenced Beyonce's name for a very short time outweigh everything else? 

What else does she need to do to put this to rest?

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